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demog
04-06-2008, 11:54 PM
Ok, we have burned through hyjal must faster than we have expected - it's only our second week there, and we've already had 6 hours of tries on archimonde. It's clearly not a gear fight: the only hyjal/BT gear we have is the stuff we've picked up during this short time, but even with our crappy gear the boss appear to hit like a little girl (haven't seen any of those 10k+ hits i've been warned about), and the healers have no problems with keeping me alive. The lack of crushing blows seriously make this boss a joke from the tank's point of view.

Our big problem is that none in the raid have any experience with the boss, so we're not really sure our approach is the right one. Earlier when we worked on kael, you guys had a lot of clever things to say, so i hope you can help again here :)

Positioning

This is apparently the first thing to get right. At the moment i tank him in the middle of the open area... during pull we approach him from the north-east, so the tank spot is approximately 20 yards north-east of his starting position.

The groups are spread out all the way around him, the decursers are marked up and placed so they cover the whole area.

When you look at bosskillers, the diagram suggests that he is tanked facing up the mountains, with the entire raid behind him. AFAIK that is because earlier the doomfires would just move up in the mountains and disappear... is that true? Or is it still a good idea to tank him like that?

Wipe reasons

Obviously we wipe all the time :)

In the beginning it was mostly because someone didn't run away from the doomfire, or died from the air burst. Luckily, those wipes have become kinda rare, so people are clearly learning.

The last 3-4 tries before raid end last night all ended in the same way: I got airbursted by one of the melees with boss around 50-60%. That was pretty demoralizing... (actually i mostly survived the airbursts, but then there was always someone else dying right after, probably because healers panicked) The melee argued that there was so much fire around them that they couldn't run away. Some claimed that it was because of our positioning that so many fires was in the middle. I'd say it's just because people didn't "kite" the fires properly.

Anyway, any suggestions for how we prevent having too much fire in the middle?

Or is it just a matter of melee trying not to get caught by fires?

Hypatia
04-07-2008, 09:02 AM
Note that on airbust on melee, you should be able to avoid airburst on the tank just as long as the person targeted backs up a step or two. I tend to back up a step or two when I notice airburst on the melee, and then step back in once they all disappear.

That said, if things have gotten hectic and you're hitting one emergency button after another to keep things safe (like: crap, somebody screwed up, silence soul charge: hit trinket(s), hit LS, hit HS, hit pot) it can be really easy to not take that step back—so getting the melee to know their range may be better than trying to help out by adding more range on your end.

demog
04-07-2008, 11:31 PM
Just had yet another wipenight on him yesterday (shortened a bit by instance servers being down for a long time).

Still, the biggest cause of wipes is me getting airbursted by melee. As you write, I try to step back when I see airburst being cast on a melee, but it's awful hard to react when you also have to watch fires/watch out for fear cast/use panic buttons.

Next time I'll try to get the melee to simply jump back, regardless of who the airburst is targeting. "Air Burst on enemy cast bar" -> GTFO. Will probably strip down some reacting time, when they don't need to realize whether it's a melee who is targeted or not.

Noraxe
04-08-2008, 12:32 AM
We try to get our melee to move when they see a fire coming towards them(usually have like 3-4 melee), or me turning him left or right depending on fires. Seeing that its not a dps fight, it dosent matter if they stand away from him for a short while.
Also intercept mid air is your friend here :)

Nez
04-08-2008, 10:21 AM
Melee needs to stand on the far side from you at all times. You will most likely be having to spin him a bit to avoid Doomfires spawns, they need to pay attention and stay away from you. We found it helpful to put an icon on my head when we first started learning this fight so they could easily see me and move away if needed. Its still possible to get one if someone gets feared near you and an airbust goes off. You can survive these if you dont panic, make a safe landing, keep shield block up as your coming back down, and be ready to pot, healthstone what ever you need to do to stay alive until the healers get back to you. On our guilds first kill of him, I got airburst at about 22% and we made it lolol funfun. The raid just needs to really understand that staying alive is the most important thing in this fight.
=]

trueX
04-08-2008, 02:40 PM
1. Position is 100% a non-factor, any position BUT the one shown on bosskillers.com should work just fine. And yes the fires USED to go up the mountain making that an advantage, they no longer do that so its ineffective. Keep him in the middle on the hill by the stump. The more open area you have to stand the more open area there is for fire to be in vs right underneath you.

2. From what I read, you are tanking him 100% correctly but are getting wiped by simply..bad melle. Not bad just un-aware of surroundings. Archi is a 90% technical and 10% dps type fight. If the melle are air-bursting you, that means they aren't moving back..which means they are doing 1 of 2 things. (1) seeing the warning and just not moving, in which case you need to replace them. (2) not seeing the warning at all when its right in the middle of the screen in a *RAID WARNING*, which I would almost be willing to bet that they are just watching the DPS meter, disregarding anything and everything and trying to lead the meters, which is causing them to not see the warning and move, causing you to get punted and wasted another 24 persons time.

Seriously, as the MT, crack down on people, even if your not an officer. But if you melle just simply ARENT moving back, when they should, the blame lies on them and THEY are the reason your raid is wiping.

The first time we downed archi, we had 2 people die pretty much back to back and some idiots got roasted in the fire...all of which didnt matter bc I didnt get booted. Now another time we can do all that above perfectly but if melle causes me to get booted, its more or less a wipe if he wasnt already low.

Dont change what your doing, just chew a few backsides of said raiders and get the problem fixed, then point and laugh at how LoLLerbad Archi is when he cant crush!!!

Keep it up, youll get him.

byechee
04-08-2008, 04:14 PM
i hate to be "that guy", but it's spelled "melee".

Kraygor
04-09-2008, 12:09 AM
Survival should be the #1 goal on every single raid member's mind. Honestly, your dps'ers have the easiest job in this fight and need to be slapped if they're too dumb to stay alive and, even worse, air burst the tank.

Here's a couple things you can try. These were listed on some guide I read a while ago. Too lazy to find a link.

Game #1

For warm-up pulls, no one is allowed to attack, except for shadow priests to help with mana regen. Everyone stands in position and focuses all attention on survival. The goal is to get everyone in the right mindset. If your raid is good, they will make it to the enrage timer.

Game #2

Put people on time-out. The first person to die on every attempt has to stay outside the portal for all subsequent attempts. 24-man, then 23-man, then 22-man etc. until you feel the point has been made. Drum it into their heads that no one can be carried through this fight, and their death is directly responsible for wiping the entire raid.

Dany
04-09-2008, 01:13 AM
The last 3-4 tries before raid end last night all ended in the same way: I got airbursted by one of the melees with boss around 50-60%. That was pretty demoralizing... (actually i mostly survived the airbursts, but then there was always someone else dying right after, probably because healers panicked) The melee argued that there was so much fire around them that they couldn't run away. Some claimed that it was because of our positioning that so many fires was in the middle. I'd say it's just because people didn't "kite" the fires properly.


Even if people made the fire take a "oh my god" strange path, it's all melee fault if you're airbusted... and fire is not an excuse. They NEVER should be near you for ANY reason.
Furthermore, if they have a good bossmod, they sould be shouting something locally so they know they have 1.5 seconds to move away.

demog
04-09-2008, 02:42 AM
Thanks for all the input, will surely help.


Survival should be the #1 goal on every single raid member's mind. Honestly, your dps'ers have the easiest job in this fight and need to be slapped if they're too dumb to stay alive and, even worse, air burst the tank.

Here's a couple things you can try. These were listed on some guide I read a while ago. Too lazy to find a link.

Game #1

For warm-up pulls, no one is allowed to attack, except for shadow priests to help with mana regen. Everyone stands in position and focuses all attention on survival. The goal is to get everyone in the right mindset. If your raid is good, they will make it to the enrage timer.

Game #2

Put people on time-out. The first person to die on every attempt has to stay outside the portal for all subsequent attempts. 24-man, then 23-man, then 22-man etc. until you feel the point has been made. Drum it into their heads that no one can be carried through this fight, and their death is directly responsible for wiping the entire raid.

Funny thing is that we started last raid with only 21 people, because there had been a large number of signoffs. Those where some of the best attempts we've had on him - lack of healing power was the main problem. 5 healers where more than enough to keep me alive, until there was an unlucky combination of some slacker running into a fire / too many healers feared / etc.

We've considered the "no dps" training too, but we didn't try it seriously. Anyway, we're convinced that everyone KNOW how to do this fight, it's just a matter of everyone to stay focussed and forget about dps-meters.

I don't know about "removing" people who die, if it's just a one-time offender. If it's the same person who wipes the raid, over and over again, then it could be a good idea.

Now i just need to convince people to forget all about BT until we get this boss down (which will happen, given enough attempts)... Pretty hard since everyone want free lewt :<

Dany
04-09-2008, 03:36 AM
This fight is almost doable with autoattack only... I'm exagerating, but DPS is NEVER a problem, never. The day you fight archimonde with 25 people and get to enrage, then you over master the fight, you'll down him next try.

It is only all about staying alive. The day dps will understand that they shouldn't finish their cast if anything can happen to them in the next 2 seconds, you'll one shot him every week.

Well, they have to know when to use their tears when airbusted too, of course :cool:

demog
04-21-2008, 12:46 AM
100 wipes and counting... Sigh!

This fight is really starting to get on my nerves. It didn't take us more than a couple of raid nights to down kael, but archimonde has given us 4 full wipe nights now.

Cause of wipes:

-- Raid start --
1: Tank death
2: Tank death
3: Airburst
4: Airburst
5: Fire
6: Fire
7: Tank death
8: Airburst
9: Tank death
10: Airburst
-- Change of positioning --
11: Fire
12: Fire
13: Fire
14: Fire
15: Fire
16: Fire
17: Airburst
18: Fire
19: Fire
20: Airburst
21: Airburst
22: Fire
-- Raid end --

The attempts where i died first (as the tank), were mostly because healers weren't in position quickly enough and i took some unlucky hits just after the pull.

In the start we fought him in the middle by the treestump, but somehow people figured that we should try fighting him by the mountains (with my back against the invisible wall).

It's just so annoying that people still fail to use the slow-fall item properly and crater after airbursts... But even if all those wipes are eliminated, ppl still die from fire all the time.

This fight is just so frustrating to tank, because apparently tanking is the easiest job in the fight... Wiping 100 times while not being able to improve any more personally, that just blows... just have to wait for everyone to learn their parts, which obviously takes some time.

Do anyone know of any archimonde kill-videos recorded after the patch?

Lobo
04-21-2008, 06:20 AM
You should NEVER be airbursted by melee. If you are, they are too close to you. His hitbox is pretty big and they can stand well away from you. If you get air burster, it's going to mess up the position, and more then likely wipe the raid. No melee should be attacking him near you for several reasons. Air burst. Doomfire. Parry mechanic. Make sure they don't.

In my raids. The first rule of Fight Club is: Don't Crater.
If someone in the raid can't click on the tears to stay alive then sit down with them and make sure they are doing it at the right time. Server lag can cause issues with this. Make sure they know they don't have to click it right before they hit. They can click it midway down and just heal through the fall damage.

Melee groups need to constantly pan their camera around and watch for potential doomfires. If one even looks like it's coming, they need to get out. Have them save their PvP trinkets for fears that take them towards fire. BTW, make it a requirement for everyone to have the 2 minute PvP trinket.

It's not a DPS race, so folks need to know it's Live first. DPS second.

There is a script that you can put in to make your camera pan out a great distance. I don't remember what it is, but it's helped a lot in this fight, maybe someone here has it and can post it.

Lacunata
04-29-2008, 03:00 PM
"/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4"

byechee
04-29-2008, 03:25 PM
yeah, people focus too much on not taking ANY fall damage, and more often than not this means clicking too late and cratering. let people know it's better to be safe than face down.

Clifford
05-14-2008, 04:58 AM
Had our second night of tries on him and didn't progress beyond our first evening. Almost all deaths were due to people dying in doomfire. We did have the odd airburst -> curse; falling death etc

Strategy is the same as most I guess: Tank near the logs; 4 ranged groups with decursers and healers; melee group with totems etc etc

Getting everyone to focus on survival is key as has been said many times. WWS reveals that people weren't using their healthstones, potions and bandages as often as they could or should. Additionally I think that people need to stay FAR away from a doomfire if it is near to them ("run for the mountains").

Vashj and Kael felt easier than this but only time will tell as each of those died on our fourth night of attempts, so I still have two more evening on Archi if I want to keep with tradition.

Guess it will have to wait until the currently reported 2.4.2 "changes" are addressed.