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kittikat
04-06-2008, 10:49 AM
I still see questions arising about these two on these forums, so I figured I'd toss this up here for future reference.

If this already exists, please go ahead and nuke it :)

Defense is an armor attribute and modifying skill that allows a character to defend himself by using his armor effectively to reduce damage, and by avoiding or dodging attacks.

Defense Rating (DR) And What It Means

Instead of directly affecting Defense Skill (DS), items in TBC grant a bonus to Defense Rating (DR) instead. Skill bonuses are then calculated as follows:

For a level 60 : 1.5 DR = 1 DS

For a level 70 : 2.366 DR = 1 DS


Effects

For an attack from an equal-level NPC, each point in Defense Skill (DS):

Increases the chance of being missed by an attack by .04%
Increases the chance to dodge an attack by .04%
Increases the chance to parry an attack by .04%
Increases the chance to block an attack by .04%
Decreases the chance of being affected by a critical hit by .04%


This means that effectively, every 25 DS increases your chance to be missed, and to dodge, block, and parry, by 1%, and reduces your chance to be crit by 1%. Because all NPCs have a 5% crit rate against targets of the same level, against a level 70 player with 475 DS, a level 70 NPC effectively will not crit.

There have been unproven reports of still being crit by mobs while being Uncrittable, but as of yet, there is still no hard evidence to prove that a "minimum" crit chance exists.
However, a couple of the factors that might increase crit chances against you are:
-MCing a Feral druid
-Inherent increased crit chance (Shadow Labyrinth mobs)
-Broken gear
-Sitting down
-Defense-reducing debuffs (Emperor Vek'nilash)
Thanks: Norrath, Ciderhelm

At level 70, 350 is everyone's "base" defense value. To avoid Crits from Bosses (LVL 73 mobs) you will need a DS of 490 (125 DS is needed to negate the base 5% crit rate, plus another 15 is needed to negate the +3 level difference, 0.6%).

Due to the new talent Survival of the Fittest, Druids need only 65 DS (154 DR) extra to negate all critical hits, in other words 415 at level 70. Warriors and Paladin tanks are advised to continue aiming for the magical +140 (332 DR).

Crushing blows

In addition, DS decreases the chance of being affected by a crushing blow. Each point of DS will decrease the chance of being affected by a crushing blow by 2%. The benefit that defense will have on a crushing blow is limited by your level. In other words, increasing your DS will only reduce the chance of being struck by a crushing blow if your current DS value is below your level's maximum unbuffed value.


Resilience

Resilience is a rating which was created to reduce the effects of critical hits against your character. It has two components; it reduces the chance you will be critically hit by x%, and it reduces the damage dealt to you by critical hits by 2x%. x is the percentage resilience granted by a given resilience rating. Note that Resilience only affects Critical %'s, so if you're debating on which way to go, the best way to think of resilience is as a PVP rating. I prefer to use it as a Druid since it's quicker to get and I only see two of the benefits from Defense anyways.

Resilience bonuses are then calculated as follows:

For a level 60 : 25 Resilience = -1% Crit Chance and -2% Crit Damage

For a level 70 : 39.4 Resilience = -1% Crit Chance and -2% Crit Damage

Also a thing to note:
Defense and Resilience stack. So when determining how much of each you need to get to reach Crit Cap, look in your Character Sheet, click on Defense Tab, and add up the Percentages of Defense and Resilience.

Warriors and Paladins need 5.6% total.

Druids with SoTF need 2.6% total.

Radhja
04-06-2008, 11:26 AM
Makes you wonder how deep the DR will be when WLK comes out, don't it?

kittikat
04-06-2008, 11:42 AM
It won't be much. Remember, once we hit level 80, our Base Defense will probably be 400 (50 more than current). The return on Defense Rating -> Defense Skill will probably scale again like it did for level 60 -> 70.

But as far as calculations go, I'm sure it'll still be 125 Defense Skill to remain uncrittable against equal-level mobs, and 140 against Boss mobs (3 levels higher).

Based on the scaling differences between 60 and 70, I'd throw out a loose guess that at level 80, it'll require 3.408 DR = 1 DS. So... 478? up from the current 332. But this is totally theoretical.

It'll be interesting to see how far off I am when WotLK comes out.

Taelas
04-06-2008, 12:56 PM
You will still take the very, very rare critical hit no matter how high your DS is, though. There have been reported occasional critical hits from level 70 mobs at 475 and 500 DS. It seems that your chance to be critically hit after the "cutoff point" is somewhere under 0.1%[/U]
This is not true.

There is no evidence for suggesting a minimum crit chance. In any case where a crit has occured after 490 Defense, there are too many factors to narrow it down to a "minimum crit chance". In fact, there is evidence against this -- people have tanked for months on end without ever being crit. If there was a minimum crit chance, they would be crit at least once every few days.

A couple of the factors are,
-MCing a Feral druid
-Inherent increased crit chance (Shadow Labyrinth mobs)
-Broken gear
-Sitting down
-Defense-reducing debuffs (Emperor Vek'nilash)

kittikat
04-06-2008, 01:44 PM
This is not true.

There is no evidence for suggesting a minimum crit chance. In any case where a crit has occured after 490 Defense, there are too many factors to narrow it down to a "minimum crit chance". In fact, there is evidence against this -- people have tanked for months on end without ever being crit. If there was a minimum crit chance, they would be crit at least once every few days.

A couple of the factors are,
-MCing a Feral druid
-Inherent increased crit chance (Shadow Labyrinth mobs)
-Broken gear
-Sitting down
-Defense-reducing debuffs (Emperor Vek'nilash)
Quite true, but in all my searches I have seen arguments from both camps. I haven't personally seen any crits happen on myself, but in making this post, I figured I'd err on the side of caution with regards to that.

In fact, I'll amend that to state such.

Ciderhelm
04-06-2008, 01:47 PM
I definitely agree with Norrath. There's just zero evidence that there's a minimum chance to Crit. I'll link you to my response to a related thread here for details.

Ciderhelm
04-06-2008, 01:52 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/general-discussion/35836-critical-hit-o_o-3.html#post66126

Read the discussion throughout the thread. That's a more blunt response than I'd normally give. :p

Basically, there's zero evidence that there's a minimum to Crit. What we do know:

1) Some mobs have higher than base Crit chance (these are well documented, many of them Rogue type mobs);

2) Some players fat-finger their Sit button which is normally bound to "X", thus causing an automatic Crit

3) Some players using certain combatlog mods do not know the difference between a Crushing and a Crit

Taelas
04-06-2008, 01:53 PM
Quite true, but in all my searches I have seen arguments from both camps. I haven't personally seen any crits happen on myself, but in making this post, I figured I'd err on the side of caution with regards to that.

In fact, I'll amend that to state such.

While it is commendable not to take sides even when you disagree with the subject matter, this isn't simply a case of disagreement. It's misinformation, and by giving it even the slightest measure of credibility, even if you mention that you do not believe it yourself, you're perpetuating it.

I apologize if this seems like an attack on you; it isn't meant to be one. I simply get a bit agitated whenever this comes up.

And just to include some positive feedback as well, the rest of the guide is good. :) I'd mention that in order to make sure you are not the victim of a rounding error when combining Defense and Resilience you should cause them to overlap, but other than that, it's fine.

kittikat
04-06-2008, 01:56 PM
ooh, thanks for the point of references you two :)

And I completely know where you're coming from Norrath. It's actually nice that you two have pointed this out to me.

tobarstep
04-07-2008, 05:55 PM
Just a side note, resilience doesn't only impact critical %'s. It also reduces the damage you take from DoT's. How much, I'm not sure as I don't actually have any resil gear, but I know that's part of it.

Padcow
04-08-2008, 07:51 AM
What I'm wondering about is the lack of discussion on Resilience as part of a tanking set. A 2 set bonus on Gladiator Plate yields 35 resilience, which equals to a 22 "free" Defense Skill (51 Defense Rating) when going for Crit Immunity. Added bonus is that Gladiator gear is reasonably easy to obtain, has high stamina and medium armor equal to it's Tier level, at least for Warriors.

When going for pure effective health tanking this will allow for a lot more room to squeeze in more Stamina and TPS based items like Badge of Justice and Zul'Aman gear, which in general lack Defense stats.

kittikat
04-08-2008, 08:23 AM
As a warrior and a paladin, going outside of defense is generally a no-no because you're cutting out huge portions of avoidance by doing so.

Defense carries with it the ability to avoid getting hit, both normally and critically, and increases your dodge, parry, and block chances.

Resilience only increases your chances to avoid being critically hit. And at 5.6%, the reduction in critical damage is moot.

Most warriors and paladins stack defense to help increase their ability to push crushing blows off the table.

Druids have no such luck in doing this, so we concentrate on Crit avoidance. Well, at least I do.

Taelas
04-08-2008, 02:53 PM
What kittikat said. You're losing out on huge amounts of avoidance by going with Resilience over Defense. For a druid, it's not so cut-and-dry -- they lose only 2/3rds of the avoidance a paladin/warrior does, and their Defense score isn't that high to begin with. Their Agility score scales so well with Dodge that you can go crit-immune purely with Resilience and almost make up for the lost avoidance by using the itempoints you're saving on Agility... plus, as a bonus, it'll increase your crit chance (and your armor, though that really is a minor point).

Defense is still the superior stat, even for druids, but they can at least replace Defense with Resilience without losing too much effectiveness.

AlmtyBob
04-08-2008, 03:36 PM
Crushing blows

In addition, DS decreases the chance of being affected by a crushing blow. Each point of DS will decrease the chance of being affected by a crushing blow by 2%.

Your phrasing seems off here. DS indirectly pushes CB's off the table by adding to dodge/parry/block/miss. That's 1.6% of CB reduction. It's 2% if you're including the crit reduction, however that extra 0.04% no longer comes into play past 490 (writing from a warrior/pally perspective).


The benefit that defense will have on a crushing blow is limited by your level. In other words, increasing your DS will only reduce the chance of being struck by a crushing blow if your current DS value is below your level's maximum unbuffed value.


I believe you're misreading Wowwiki here. The chance to be crushed is 2% * (mob weapon skill - Max Player Defense skill for player level) - 15. So a 73 mob usually has 15 more points of weapon skill ((73-70) * 5) than the player. The player's max defense skill at 70 is 350. So the chance of getting crushed before the combat table is factored in is: 2% * (365-350) - 15 = 15%. However, once a tank has become uncritable and has 87.4% combined Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block (through defense skill or otherwise), each point of DS decreases the chance of a crushing blow by 1.6% as it begins to push crushes off the table. It's theoretically possible to become crush immune by stacking nothing but DS.

kittikat
04-08-2008, 03:59 PM
And it looks like you caught a misplaced decimal as well. That should read .2% per point in DSkill instead of 2%. And you're right about the miscalc including crit too..bah. Thanks for pointing that out :)

So looks like .16% crush reduction per point of DSkill, not 1.6%.

Just verifying this before I change that up. Look right?

AlmtyBob
04-08-2008, 04:07 PM
And it looks like you caught a misplaced decimal as well. That should read .2% per point in DSkill instead of 2%. And you're right about the miscalc including crit too..bah. Thanks for pointing that out :)

So looks like .16% crush reduction per point of DSkill, not 1.6%.

Just verifying this before I change that up. Look right?

Yah I made the same error; 0.16 not 1.6. Just keep in mind that defense in-and-of-itself does nothing to reduce crushing blows until the tank reaches a combined 87.4 miss/dodge/parry/block and that reduction comes from only pushing it off the table, not like the direct reducing effect DS has on crit. After 87.4% combined adding 25 DS (1%) reduces crushing blows the same way as 1% of dodge, 1% of parry, or 1% BR by themselves would.

Padcow
04-09-2008, 04:35 AM
The problem I faced when I first started gearing my Warrior tank I faced a dilemma. From the Effective Health theory I wanted to max my armor and maximum health as much as possible. The gear was available on my fingertips, but I couldn't equip the gear because I had to dip below 490 Defense.

I managed to compensate by socketing some Defense gems instead of Stamina gems, but it felt like gimping my EH and I didn't want to give up my Bulwark of Kings (soon to be Ancient Kings).

By employing resilience one could boost their Uncrittability easily, while maintaining enough avoidance to stay Uncrushable while Shield Block and Improved Thunder Clap are up.

Obviously, the gear setup wouldn't be very useful for fast hitters that can squeeze in some crushes between Shield Blocks, but for most progression tanking and especially for Zul'Aman (most bosses can't crush) tanking all that additional Effective Health is extremely welcome.

Just look at some of the random items which are very useful for tanking, but you'll have difficulty inserting into your gear due to the required Defense minimum.

Bonefist Gauntlets
Brooch of Deftness
Bulwark of the Amani Empire
Crimson Paragon's Cover
Dawnforged Defender
Pepe's Shroud of Pacification
Praetorian's Legguards
Ring of the Stalwart Protector
Shapeshifter's Signet

There are a lot more items in Badge / Zul'Aman loot that do have some defense rating, but generally a lot less than T4/T5 gear.

What I'm trying to point out is I believe Resilience is very underrated. Tanking Arena gear is relatively easy to obtain (excluding shoulders), and with min/maxing you'll probably end up with equal or better stats. The 2-set Gladiator bonus is just too useful to simply ignore for PvE content.

Dany
04-09-2008, 04:47 AM
It's true that if you wanna wear all these items at the same time, you'll face problems :P.

It's all about balancing your stuff. And remember that now, you have 2 new def enchant that I personally love, on cloak and on chest, which are very good 'cause they give more points than previous enchants, letting you wear such items that lacks defense, giving you more hp and threat most of the time.

Leeroi
04-29-2008, 08:04 PM
Question on calculating DS from DR.

Look up in the armory the Lvl 70 Pally (Prot) named Roeho. His DR is 288, but his Defense Skill is 491. What is up with that? I see again and again that you need 490 to be uncritable but in Fortifications is says the conversion from Rating to Skill is 2.4 : 1 and above it says the conversion is 2.366 : 1. The Armor says his Defense Skill is +121 as a result of his DR of 288 (the 2.366 factor actually would give +121.7 which should round to +122, but close enough) but that would mean Roeho is running around with a "natural" defense of 370. Can Pallies do that? What is going on here?

*** EDIT ***

Wish I could delete this and pretend I never wrote it. Pallies have Anticipation, which - Hello! - gives them an extra 20 Defense Skill. Go figure.

I are ignorant.....

Sorry for the spam of stupid questions.....

kittikat
04-29-2008, 10:11 PM
Question on calculating DS from DR.

Look up in the armory the Lvl 70 Pally (Prot) named Roeho. His DR is 288, but his Defense Skill is 491. What is up with that? I see again and again that you need 490 to be uncritable but in Fortifications is says the conversion from Rating to Skill is 2.4 : 1 and above it says the conversion is 2.366 : 1. The Armor says his Defense Skill is +121 as a result of his DR of 288 (the 2.366 factor actually would give +121.7 which should round to +122, but close enough) but that would mean Roeho is running around with a "natural" defense of 370. Can Pallies do that? What is going on here?

*** EDIT ***

Wish I could delete this and pretend I never wrote it. Pallies have Anticipation, which - Hello! - gives them an extra 20 Defense Skill. Go figure.

I are ignorant.....

Sorry for the spam of stupid questions.....There are no stupid questions. :)

Ray
04-30-2008, 12:17 AM
Just a couple notes on a very good guide.

Defense > Resilence for every tank including Druid's due to the fact of the Miss% and gearing for slots. I used to be someone who got all of there crit avoidence from resilence but I have recently changed my mind for really only one reason and that is PVP gear is not the best choice for Druids in most slots due to the low armor comparatively tier to tier. (I went from using S1 shoulders and getting the 2 piece set bonus for the 35 resilence to T4 shoulders just for the increase in armor).

Also, from experience, if your gearing a warroir purely for effective health, then resilence is a great way to stay crit immune. Effective health is not about avoiding the hits, its about mitigating (lowering the damage) of each hit coming in. The S2 sheild and S2 weapon are both great from the EH angle and crit avoidence.