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View Full Version : Undebated Gear Dispute 2.4



Solarwind
04-04-2008, 02:54 AM
I've been looking around the Warrior forums and Tankspot, and have yet to see a sizeable debate on the new Tank necklace, Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34680)

Right now, I am using this, Brooch of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33296) , which would involve a tradeoff of 9 hit rating and 4 expertise rating for the proc on the new Tank Necklace.

I just have two questions regarding this new necklace:

1. To those who already have the new necklace, what is the Proc-rate on the effect, and is it worth dropping the passive 9hit 4expertise (Not a large drop for the magnitude of the Proc, but if the proc-rate is low enough, it may not be worth getting)

2. If soft-capped on expertise without the Scryer Proc, which is an overall better Proc effect, the 100 dodge rating for 10 seconds, or 100 expertise rating for 10 seconds?

I understand that dodge scales better the higher the value is, and expertise seems to scale poorly the closer you approach the theoretical cap, but which Proc effect would be more worthwhile for the main tank of a guild?

(Please note: I am several months from Sunwell, so Brutallis' Collar is unattainable at this time =X)

MasterWolf
04-04-2008, 07:30 AM
I think the Brooch is better. Just straight up better. I think the new necklace is the poor-man's brooch, made for people who haven't bought it yet.

Olympas
04-04-2008, 08:09 AM
I think the Brooch is better. Just straight up better. I think the new necklace is the poor-man's brooch, made for people who haven't bought it yet.

Assuming the proc rate is decent... I would disagree. Since Expertise rounds down there is a chance you wouldn't even lose a point of expertise. Also I would trade 1 point of expertise and .6% hit for a chance for either more threat or avoidance occasionally.

And I am not poor in badges atm either. I have a couple hundred saved for the new gear. I just couldn't justify burning 35 of them when something such as this was coming out. I intentionally didn't buy it so I could get new one.

I am 2k/21k SSO. I will have mine soon :)

Rayne
04-04-2008, 09:48 AM
I have the Brooch, will bag it when I hit exalted (9k/21k). Until proven that expertise is valuable at extraordinarily high levels, I will sacrifice a small amount of it to pick up periodic 5% dodge. Once the badge vendor is unlocked will be picking up both the legs and belt which adds 45 expertise rating and 23 hit. I'll be way over the dodge cap, and if I come across a boss which can easily parry gib me I'll swap back.

I'd probably wear the Brooch in 5-mans and the new neck in raids.

Ceravantes
04-04-2008, 09:55 AM
I bought the new neck a few days ago, but have been to busy to test it that often, Ill get some logs up this week with proc rates etc.

MasterWolf
04-04-2008, 12:09 PM
Well, I'm scryer sadly. So +100 expertise doesn't make much sense if i'm giving up exp and hit because i dont need em. Did that make sense?

Olympas
04-04-2008, 12:51 PM
Well, I'm scryer sadly. So +100 expertise doesn't make much sense if i'm giving up exp and hit because i dont need em. Did that make sense?

It does... especially if you are getting close to the hit cap and hard cap on expertise. However, if you aren't going to be exceeding the hard cap with the proc I would still consider in order to reduce parries.

I for one am glad I am Aldor as I just received Shard of Contempt - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34472). So now I should be able to get close to the hard cap with a parry intensive boss thanks to the new badge gear.

kawika
04-04-2008, 07:24 PM
I was just thinking of asking this question myself =P

The proc has an internal cooldown of 45 sec. My guess is that its similar in proc rate to the new trinkets (such as the shard). I've been running around with the shard since i got it....using it as part of my dps set doing the new dailies,and it seems to have fairly good proc rate (feels like it goes off roughly once a minute).

Given that it's a proc and something you can't control my guess would be that the effectiveness of this neck is less on short fights and higher on longer ones (nothing like having it proc JUST as a mob dies if you know what i mean..heh).

The following is the quote i saw on wowhead:

It's a 45 second internal cooldown, 10 second buff and a high enough proc chance that it will proc fairly soon into the start of any fight. I saw it up a -lot-. Whilst various tests have stated it's a 45 second internal cooldown I wouldnt be surprised if it was actually 30. It seems up a -lot-.

Comparing this to the Brooch of Deftness you lose 9 hit rating and 3 Expertise, but gain 100 expertise roughly 1/5 of the time. Also, this expertise tends to come very early at the start of a fight, as the proc will go off within the first few swings of a pull, which means the expertise is there when you want it - getting that initial threat, rather than succumbing to the hell of a string of parries within the first vital few seconds.

As a result, although it likely averages out as being 20 passive expertise, I think it's more useful than that, because you get a huge whack of expertise more often when you really need it. Provided you have enough hit on other gear to not worry about losing a bit from the Brooch, I'd say this is -definitely- worth using if you're a Scryer over the Brooch. I destroyed my beloved Brooch of Deftness today after some good testing of this thing. It's awesome.


This leads to a tangent question of what faction should pick it up given that:
Aldor = 100 dodge rating
Scryer = 100 expertise rating


If you dont have the brooch, i'd say it's a good upgrade to get to save your badges for some other critical need.

Scryers i can see as the pendant being an upgrade over the brooch if the proc equals out to some decent passive equivalency.

Aldor maybe not that big an upgrade if you already have the brooch? The avoidance is nice...but is it worth loosing the threat from the loss of +hit and +expertise? Maybe in certain cases yes....but in general, i don't think so?

Scargoth
04-05-2008, 01:10 AM
The neck procced more often than mongoose did for me in a full night of tanking MH/BT:

Scargoth - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/52h6hce53jdyo?a=5#buffs)

Look for "Light's Ward" and you'll see I had 159 procs, but only 152 "Lightning Speed" procs.

I am Aldor rep and I gain roughly 6% dodge when this procs. My brooch went into the bank and it will probably stay there for a long time. I feel that the gain in avoidance for aldor makes this the better choice over the brooch.

Esillymidget
04-05-2008, 04:10 PM
The healing one is about a 50% proc rate, so it is nearly guaranteed to pop every 45 seconds, I hope the tanking version is that frequent, I should be able to find out be tonight or tomorrow.

Kahmal
04-06-2008, 11:28 AM
I picked up the pendant as an Aldor, proc rate is pretty damn good. And I"m up to 6.25 Expertise when I have the Brooch on. With some gear swapping I'd say the pendant is better on a threat set simply because I have Executioner on my Mallet and I think having a 5% dodge on proc can make up for what I could of had with Mongoose.

Anyone agree?

Rayne
04-07-2008, 07:36 AM
The only boss we did last night was FLK (boo for not having Hunters on the run).

On our kill of 7:13, it proc'd 9 times, or every 48 seconds. Mongoose proc'd 8 times. Oh, I'm Aldor.

I think Scryer got hosed on this issue, at least for tanks. A tank is generally going to stack enough expertise to reach his comfort level. A bunch more periodically doesn't seem terribly valuable, except I guess for a boss that has a really high parry rating.

Esillymidget
04-09-2008, 12:27 AM
The expertise proc is useful, you just have to gear around it, like use it to offset your lack of threat in a high avoidance set, or put it in any time your wearing a limited amount of expertise. Could be really nice in those situations, since it was giving me a noticeable bump in threat while raiding. It's certainly not going to be as universally useful as a dodge proc though.

Indris
04-09-2008, 10:38 PM
I really dislike the new tanking neck and I don't think I'll ever be using it tbh. First off, I'm a Scryer and in my full threat set I'm sitting at 41 expertise (10.25% reduction, not 41 rating) - so really, for threat generation there's no sense in using it at all as the exp proc would just throw me way over any possible expertise cap.

There's also tons more sweet items with expertise on them that could be used to reach the cap without nerfing your stats too much if you're missing some of the drops I've got or whatever - it's really a non issue to boost your expertise as high as you'd like it to be if you're having threat issues.

Wearing it in a proper mitigation / avoidance set as a measure of avoiding parry haste? I don't know, I'd rather wear the neck from Maiden in Karazhan than this tbh, seeing as you'd be relying on a PROC, to reduce the CHANCE of getting gibbed by parries... Really just don't see how this is in any way useful.

The Aldor dodge proc... Okay, on paper it sounds cool - 6% dodge is a lot and such. If it was a Use, with a minute cooldown or something, I could see how it could come in handy, perhaps. But the randomness makes it pretty much a moot point, imo. Again the crappy neck from Karazhan is like 2.5% passive avoidance, which is always here with you. Sure, there's a chance the Aldor neck might proc during an 'oh sh@&' moment and save you - but then again there's a chance it had just procced while you were sitting on max hp parrying every hit for 20 seconds, and then prompty ran out during an AoE silence while you're eating a streak of 6 hits.

It just seems very unreliable to me, and lack of any proper mitigation / avoidance on it makes it appear worthless in my eyes. Of course it all comes down to everyone's personal preference and what works for them, I suppose.

Bodasafa
04-12-2008, 08:43 AM
Ok if your soft capped in expertise like I am then the scryer version sucks imo. Btw on that subject what bosses do this outrageous parry that you need a huge expertise rating for?

If your aldor (wich i am) the question lies -- is dropping the little hit and expertise on the Brooch of Deftness worth the occasional dodge jump, 5-6% is what im hearing.

Personally ive been tanking early SSC/TK with 15% dodge and guess what Im doing on avg. 1000 TPS. I think that having a huge amount of dodge gimps aggro gen. But this is where opinons can differ cause im not a avoidance tank. Im a EH/Max Threat tank.

Im going to grab the new neck and test it out. But from what I hear from players in my guild who are already exualted and have differant forms of it, "It procs when I make bandages or change zones!" is what ive heard. Weather thats the true intented proc rate or its a bug there gonna squash remains to be seen.

Scargoth
04-12-2008, 06:38 PM
The primary value of this neck is the fact that it is +hit and +exp, the fact that it also has a proc is only a secondary value. Because of this, I think it is pointless to compare this neck to any neck other than the Brooch since other necks serve a different purpose.

You're really not going to miss the 3 expertise rating (3 expertise you'd miss, but not 3 expertise rating), so to me it comes down to only hit rating. With this neck on I still have 115 hit rating (7.29%) in my main tanking set. If I was sitting around 90 hit or lower then I would probably still use the Brooch, but as it is now I feel comfortable losing a little hit in order to pick up the dodge proc.

The neck procs very fast, it will proc almost immediately when its internal CD is up, and you can expect it to proc slightly more often than a mongoose enchant. If you choose mongoose over executioner for tanking because you like the defensive value mongoose offers (armor+dodge), then you would probably also see a similar gain and value from the shattered sun tanking neck if you are aldor.

Tank
04-12-2008, 06:48 PM
Aldor Light's ward proc (5% dodge) + Mongoose proc when stack = 10%+ of dodge :D

If you have no rage problem or good enough hit, this item is really good and it should have a higher item rating :cool:

veneretio
04-12-2008, 06:53 PM
I've wrote something pretty in depth on it here: Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve vs Brooch of Deftness - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/04/11/sso-neck-vs-brooch-of-deftness/)

Basically, the article finds that the Scryer version of the rep neck is better than the Brooch until you have 33 Expertise Skill after which point the Brooch is superior of the two for threat. It's wrote under the assumption that 46 Expertise Skill is the Parry cap. If the cap is found to be higher than that then it'll ever so slightly skew these findings.

edit: updated to reflect new findings based on better uptime.

Aughban
04-12-2008, 07:10 PM
I've wrote something pretty in depth on it here: Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve vs Brooch of Deftness - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/04/11/sso-neck-vs-brooch-of-deftness/)

Basically, the article finds that the Scryer version of the rep neck is better than the Brooch until you have 23 Expertise Skill after which point the Brooch is superior of the two for threat. It's wrote under the assumption that 46 Expertise Skill is the Parry cap. If the cap is found to be higher than that then it'll ever so slightly skew these findings.

You also assumed that it would proc once per minute.

Scargoth
04-13-2008, 12:07 AM
You also assumed that it would proc once per minute.

It's definitely better than once per minute. I went and checked a WWS log from a full night of tanking last week (where I am certain I had it equipped the whole night), and I had 159 procs in 121 minutes of combat time, that comes out to 1 proc every 45.66 seconds on average

veneretio
04-13-2008, 12:34 AM
It's definitely better than once per minute. I went and checked a WWS log from a full night of tanking last week (where I am certain I had it equipped the whole night), and I had 159 procs in 121 minutes of combat time, that comes out to 1 proc every 45.66 seconds on average
Ya it's since been discovered that it's got an internal cooldown of 45 seconds but a very high proc rate.

veneretio
04-17-2008, 09:03 AM
Just an update, my original article on this subject after taking into account a high proc rate with a 45 second internal cooldown has found that 33 Expertise Skill while wearing the SSO Neck is the breaking point. As a result, everyone should pick it up seeing as many times, you'll want to run with less than 33 Skill even if you are capable of reaching that amount.