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View Full Version : Value of DPS stats (hit rating = the suck)



Crimsonstorm
04-01-2008, 02:06 PM
Ignore anyone who says you want 200 or whatever hit rating...you dont.
You want about 9% +hit for Arms or Prot dps, and 6% for fury (from items). After that, any other dps stat is superior to hit rating. Its not worthless, but its only a bit over half as valuable as Str (the best stat).

Items with hit rating should only be chosen at that point if they are well itemized. That is, a Str + Crit + Hit item is probably better than an equal level Str+Crit item, because you pay less itemization points for each stat because there are more different stats. But its still not as good as a Str/Crit/ArPen item.

Generally the order of value of dps stats goes:

(Best)

1 Expertise rating (below cap). At lower itemization levels this wont be quite as good, but at high levels its the best stat, when below the cap - but its very hard to find). Also Hit rating when below the special attack cap is here.
1 Str
1 Crit (at a T6 level, Crit becomes about even with Str)
2AP
7 Armor Pen. (7 armor pen. is the same itemization cost as 1 str. As you stack it, additional Armor pen becomes more valuable, moving to be about as good as str at very high itemization levels)
1 Agility (Its like .8 of a crit rating, if you have Kings).
1 Haste rating (about 2/3 as good as str. Additional haste gets worse the more you have)
1 Hit rating above the cap for special attacks (about 3/5 as good as str)

Though it varies based on your gear level and current stats.


The best items tend to be Str/Crit/ArPen items (or very well itemized things with 4+ stats). Str/Agi/APen or AP/Crit/APen or AP/Agi/APen or Str/Crit/X are also pretty strong.


Str/AP increases the value of all the other stats, the stats all increase your dps in a multiplicative way, so increasing this baseline is the most important thing, especially at lower gear levels.




For Prot dps things are a bit different:
Str gets an extra bost from toughness, so its now 20% better than AP, not just 10%. Its REALLY good. Haste is worse, because you do less of your damage from white attacks. Hit rating is worse for the same reason. Crit/Agi is a bit worse due to no crit procs and no Impale.

So for Prot dps, the value of Str is even higher and Crit/Agi are down a bit, Haste and Hit down significantly. You REALLY want to stack Str and Armor Pen for Prot dps (and Expertise/Hit if below the special cap of course)

Kazeyonoma
04-01-2008, 04:11 PM
If you have say... 3k raid buffed AP, with over 28% crit and assumed special hit cap. Would you have to take ArP over Str at this point because increases in AP no longer gain as fast as ArP would? or does AP continue to multiplicatively scale over ArP. (Of course Expertise is still godly but I've been debating with a Co-worker over the value of ArP).

Namely our argument stemmed from the debate of:
Vengeance Wrap vs. Dory's Embrace

Arrivan
04-02-2008, 01:03 AM
I'm partial to Dory's Embrace, but I have no numbers to back it up. Besides that, I don't have/want to farm the mats for the Vengeance Wrap. Sue me.

Crimsonstorm
04-02-2008, 03:41 PM
According to maxdps.com, if I put in my stats:
97.5 dps MH 2.7 speed (Dragonstrike)
100 dps OH 2.6 speed (Blade of infamy)
40 haste (dragonstrike estimate)
44 expertise rating (Shard of Contempt)
1000 armor penetration (various things + 2-300 for executioner)
120 hit rating
3500 buffed AP (accurate for me as fury with full buffs / might / enhance shaman, and averaging in the value of procs).
35% buffed crit (including feral druid)

vs a 3500 armor boss after debuffs, I get that str is still barely better than Armor Pen, per itemization point. Increase the AP to 4000 and Armor Pen is now a bit ahead (and Crit gets a bit ahead too).

vs a 2000 armor boss after debuffs (low armor boss), I get that Armor Pen. is better than Str at this level. (Remember this is stacking additional armor pen past my 1000). Decrease AP to 3000 and theyre about equal.

So in general, with high level gear (S3/T5-T6), and full raid buffs including consumables, pally buffs, feral druid, enhance shaman, Armor Penetration is a bit better than Str on low armor bosses and a bit worse than Str on high armor bosses.

At lower gear levels its not quite as good.



Dory's is either equal to, or better than Vengeance Wrap, depending on gear level and boss armor. Its almost never worse, and it gets better the more that youre gear improves.

Kazeyonoma
04-03-2008, 08:58 AM
I knew there was an armor and a separate AP threshold, thanks Crimson.

skdal
04-03-2008, 10:16 PM
I dont think you can give stats a specific itemization value because the true value of each stat changes and 'scales' with all your other stats.

Some might have stats that would favor increasing their crit while others might have stats that would favor increasing str. I dont think you can simply stay X>Z>Y.

Pascal
04-04-2008, 02:50 AM
I dont think you can give stats a specific itemization value because the true value of each stat changes and 'scales' with all your other stats.

Some might have stats that would favor increasing their crit while others might have stats that would favor increasing str. I dont think you can simply stay X>Z>Y.

i'd agree with skdal in this case. having a good balance of stats is the most important part of gearing yourself and where that sweet spot exists between strength and crit varies on many different factors. OCD people might have different sets for specific bosses but most people just try to generalise it into x item is better then y for z reason.

as a warrior in tier 6 content you need to make a conscious desision however. and thats how dedicated you are to ArP gear. ArP is unique in that its a self scalling stat. for every extra point of ArP you get the previous points become more effective untill the hard cap (thats when u reduce the boss to 0 armour) so really you need to ask yourself if you can stack enough ArP to make it worthwhile

to address the question though vengeance wrap is considered better then dory's embrace untill around 400ArP at which point they become roughly the same. after that dory's becomes better. but were talking about a 0-5 dps improvement here so its definetly not something to lose sleep over.

ebs2002
04-04-2008, 11:37 AM
I dont think you can give stats a specific itemization value because the true value of each stat changes and 'scales' with all your other stats.

Some might have stats that would favor increasing their crit while others might have stats that would favor increasing str. I dont think you can simply stay X>Z>Y.

Completely agree here. Use a calculator and plug in different gear configurations and see which one is better (maxdps.com, or the prot dps sheet). What I usually do to determine what to wear is to calculate what my stats would be with each item equipped, and just compare the raw dps numbers it puts out.

BoomBeef
04-21-2008, 03:49 PM
to address the question though vengeance wrap is considered better then dory's embrace untill around 400ArP at which point they become roughly the same. after that dory's becomes better. but were talking about a 0-5 dps improvement here so its definetly not something to lose sleep over.

Pascal is that proven somewhere? ~400ArP figure because I remember reading that somewhere else and watching for it on my own WWS parses. I started seeing a difference around that # for my self and now pretty much I'm looking to get the gloves off Akama and Bloodboil's legs to upgrade my S3 ones.

veneretio
04-21-2008, 03:54 PM
I
For Prot dps things are a bit different:
Str gets an extra bost from toughness, so its now 20% better than AP, not just 10%. Its REALLY good. Haste is worse, because you do less of your damage from white attacks. Hit rating is worse for the same reason. Crit/Agi is a bit worse due to no crit procs and no Impale.

So for Prot dps, the value of Str is even higher and Crit/Agi are down a bit, Haste and Hit down significantly. You REALLY want to stack Str and Armor Pen for Prot dps (and Expertise/Hit if below the special cap of course)
I'd love to see more exploration on the topic of Prot DPS.

Sanelora
04-21-2008, 04:01 PM
Prot DPS.

^

i need me some o' that

kittikat
04-22-2008, 02:11 PM
I'm not entirely sure I would agree with this.

Take for instance our DPS warrior, The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Burning+Blade&n=Sonitus) from our Anetheron kill:
Sonitus - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/4h1pg3pdjycxm?a=12)

If you look at his stats (230 hit rating + precision = 17.59% hit), his basic white attacks make up for a solid 41% of his damage done.

And he "missed" 8% of his white swings which would have boosted his DPS even more.

Now Sonitus has a 29.10% crit chance unbuffed and 2.75% expertise.

Now, going by the model I posted: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/36361-guide-hit-rating-spell-hit-expertise.html

I'm going to plug in his numbers with only your suggested 9% hit rating and his current expertise + my LoTP bonus since I'm always in his group.

White Attack Table
1-28...: 19% Miss
29-35..: 3.75% Dodge
36-59..: 24% Glancing
60-89..: 35.10% Crit
90-100: 18.15% Hit


So based on this, capping yourself to 9% right off the bat would give him a 22.75% chance to miss, and you can't avoid the 24% glance chance (70% damage which is incapable of critting), so that pretty much puts you up to a 46.75% of ineffectiveness.

46.75% of Gimp.

That's a pretty big number to swallow.

And Sonitus' hit rating puts him at 38.16% of Gimp.

mkramer
04-22-2008, 02:50 PM
why 9% for "fury" warriors (I assume you're talking about dw fury wars?)

Crimsonstorm
04-22-2008, 02:56 PM
why 9% for "fury" warriors (I assume you're talking about dw fury wars?)

6% for dw fury warriors with precision. 9% for warriors without precision.

mkramer
04-22-2008, 02:57 PM
6% for dw fury warriors with precision. 9% for warriors without precision.

But the base miss rate is 28%?

Crimsonstorm
04-22-2008, 03:04 PM
If you look at his stats (230 hit rating + precision = 17.59% hit), his basic white attacks make up for a solid 41% of his damage done.
...
So based on this, capping yourself to 9% right off the bat would give him a 22.75% chance to miss, and you can't avoid the 24% glance chance (70% damage which is incapable of critting), so that pretty much puts you up to a 46.75% of ineffectiveness.

46.75% of Gimp.

That's a pretty big number to swallow.

And Sonitus' hit rating puts him at 38.16% of Gimp.

Yes, white attacks suck, they have huge base miss rates while DWing and all the glancing blows too.

40% white/60% special is pretty normal for fury warriors. I get the same results. And thats exactly why hit rating, above the cap to hit with specials, sucks.


15.8 hit rating = 1% hit = increasing that 40% of your dps from white attacks by about 1%.

15.8 hit rating = +.4%

1 hit rating = +.0253% dps


22.1 crit rating = 1% crit = 1% more damage from white attacks and 1.2% more damage from specials due to impale.

22.1 crit rating = (1*.4) + (1.2*.6) = 1.12% more dps.

1 crit rating = +.0506% dps.

Crit rating = about twice as good as hit rating (beyond 9%) for dps!

Even if its better than that and is like 60% as good, its still terrible in comparison to Crit, or Str. (Or Armor Penetration)

mkramer
04-22-2008, 03:07 PM
Got it.

ebs2002
04-24-2008, 11:04 AM
So in other words, the only 2.4 badge item worth anything is the ring, and the only 2.3 badge items worth anything are belt and shoulders (and Dory's Embrace)?

Or are the 2.3 and 2.4 badge items still good because of the amount of Attack Power you can stack in them?

I'm trying to decide how to spend my badges for my DPS gear, now that I'm just about finished with my tanking stuff.

Crimsonstorm
04-24-2008, 12:49 PM
Correct, the good badge DPS gear is:
Angelista's Revenge (zomg awesome)
Dory's
Pauldrons of Gruesome Fate
Chain of Unleashed Rage (but you should get Red Belt of battle instead, its a bit better)


(And Bloodlust Brooch if you dont have something better than it).

Cairn
04-24-2008, 02:32 PM
Crim > U have 40% white damage because u miss ..

Reach 200 hit it's a enough , u increase ur white damage ( and u r dps ) , u don't sacrifice ur AP/CRIT with this "virtual cap".

Lot of HL Fury Warrior have only 200 + hit with 2000+ AP and 33-35 % crit (unbuff)

Don't forget this : More hit -> give u more rage and u can spam HS/Cleave ;)

Oh and Haste < ArP for a fury warrior ( haste don't reduce ur special time attack cd ) . ArP give u more dps each time u hit ( and it's very easy to reach 1000 ArP )

Corbusier
04-24-2008, 04:27 PM
Crim > U have 40% white damage because u miss ..

Reach 200 hit it's a enough , u increase ur white damage ( and u r dps ) , u don't sacrifice ur AP/CRIT with this "virtual cap".

Lot of HL Fury Warrior have only 200 + hit with 2000+ AP and 33-35 % crit (unbuff)

Don't forget this : More hit -> give u more rage and u can spam HS/Cleave ;)

Oh and Haste < ArP for a fury warrior ( haste don't reduce ur special time attack cd ) . ArP give u more dps each time u hit ( and it's very easy to reach 1000 ArP )
wat

Rampart
04-24-2008, 04:59 PM
Fury warriors depend on their high crit chance to generate rage and keep flurry up, to again generate more rage. Stop thinking about a fury warrior from a rogue perspective, and you'll understand why crit is so much more valuable than hit (above the 6&#37; w/ Precision).

ssang
04-25-2008, 12:54 PM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Jaedenar&n=Ssang)

I was also skeptical about hit rating for warriors (I have raided on a rogue as well). My gear was quite similar to Sonitas' about 3 weeks ago (maybe 1950 unbuffed ap, 220 hit and 28&#37; crit). Since then I have added some arp, a little ap and almost a % crit while dropping about 70 hit rating. DPS on every fight is up despite the hit I lost. As long as u have enough hit rating to sustain BT/WW rotations, u will be fine.

Kream
04-25-2008, 01:55 PM
I'm not entirely sure I would agree with this.

Take for instance our DPS warrior, The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Burning+Blade&n=Sonitus) from our Anetheron kill:
Sonitus - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/4h1pg3pdjycxm?a=12)

If you look at his stats (230 hit rating + precision = 17.59% hit), his basic white attacks make up for a solid 41% of his damage done.

And he "missed" 8% of his white swings which would have boosted his DPS even more.

Now Sonitus has a 29.10% crit chance unbuffed and 2.75% expertise.

Now, going by the model I posted: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/36361-guide-hit-rating-spell-hit-expertise.html

I'm going to plug in his numbers with only your suggested 9% hit rating and his current expertise + my LoTP bonus since I'm always in his group.

White Attack Table
1-28...: 19% Miss
29-35..: 3.75% Dodge
36-59..: 24% Glancing
60-89..: 35.10% Crit
90-100: 18.15% Hit


So based on this, capping yourself to 9% right off the bat would give him a 22.75% chance to miss, and you can't avoid the 24% glance chance (70% damage which is incapable of critting), so that pretty much puts you up to a 46.75% of ineffectiveness.

46.75% of Gimp.

That's a pretty big number to swallow.

And Sonitus' hit rating puts him at 38.16% of Gimp.

The above example is seriously flawed.
A) His base miss rate would be 19%, but you put in 1-28 for miss rate on the attack table.
B) You assume that he would just throw away all his hit rating for nothing.
C) The glance chance is 25% (not a big deal)

This example below isn't realistic, but illustrates the point.. lets say he converts all his hit rating above 95 to crit rating. His attack table would be:

Before:
White Attack Table
1-6...: 6.05% Miss
7-10..: 3.75% Dodge
11-35..: 25% Glancing
36-70..: 35.10% Crit
70-100: 30.1% Hit


Out of 100 hits:
24 x .70 = 16.8
35 x 2 = 70
30 x 1 = 30
Total damage = 117 x average white hit

After:
White Attack Table
1-19...: 19% Miss
19-23..: 3.75% Dodge
24-48..: 25% Glancing
49-89.: 41.20% Crit
90-100: 10% Hit


Out of 100 hits:
24 x .70 = 16.8
41 x 2 = 82.4
10 x 1 = 10
Total damage = 109 x average white hit

So he lost 7.4% of 41% of his damage (net loss = .41 x .074 = 3% dps loss). He gained 6.1% crit on his yellow attacks at 59% of his damage (net gain = .59 x .061 x 2.2 = 8% dps increase) And he also would have better flurry uptime and using heroic strike or cleave to dump excess rage follows the yellow attack table and gets a bonus from Impale.

This is why people say hit rating sucks. It seems your warrior friend knows this, which is why he gems for crit or str.

Spaceknight
04-26-2008, 09:34 PM
Shouldn't Sonitus have heroic striked much more that, since he's swimming in a ton of rage with all that hit?.

even though I have not been to anetheron, I find that he could be pumping out much more DPS through blood thirst and WW had he put up more crit and AP instead of having so much hit

doru
05-01-2008, 06:13 AM
Hi all first post, been lurking.

I have a few issues with some fury dps theory. Now Im probably wrong but I just cant help but put this out there.

My first point. The math about hit rating seems to be off. Whenever its compared people keep showing white dmg in calculations and never seem to show plus hit numbers with WW, HS, and BT included. shortign the dmg enhancement by more hit.

My second point. Everyone seems to think weapon mastery is a godly talent. I beg to differ. It is 2 talent points but it is NOT expertise. All it does for DPS is minus 2 percent to dodge. IMO i rather use those 2 points in execute and or imp WW. 2 percent to dodge is no different than 2 percent to hit that i can get form gems gear whatever. but i can never get harder executes and or more ww from grea. If weapon mastery were expertise than it would e worthwhile and godly but alas its not in my estimation.

Corbusier
05-01-2008, 06:23 AM
Hi all first post, been lurking.

I have a few issues with some fury dps theory. Now Im probably wrong but I just cant help but put this out there.

My first point. The math about hit rating seems to be off. Whenever its compared people keep showing white dmg in calculations and never seem to show plus hit numbers with WW, HS, and BT included. shortign the dmg enhancement by more hit.

My second point. Everyone seems to think weapon mastery is a godly talent. I beg to differ. It is 2 talent points but it is NOT expertise. All it does for DPS is minus 2 percent to dodge. IMO i rather use those 2 points in execute and or imp WW. 2 percent to dodge is no different than 2 percent to hit that i can get form gems gear whatever. but i can never get harder executes and or more ww from grea. If weapon mastery were expertise than it would e worthwhile and godly but alas its not in my estimation.
That's because after 9% hit more +hit does NOTHING to increase WW, BT or HS damage.

No one said Weapon Mastery is godly, but it's still better than Imp Execute (-2% dodge over the course of a fight is far better than +105 damage to your executes).

2/2 Imp WW is counter-productive.

doru
05-01-2008, 09:27 AM
Ty for the info. I did a little more digging and I see where I was misinterpreting hit.

Crimsonstorm
05-01-2008, 10:35 AM
Shouldn't Sonitus have heroic striked much more that, since he's swimming in a ton of rage with all that hit?.


Not really. Say you gain 5% hit. Thats around 5% more rage from damage dealt.
If you gained 5% crit instead, thats about 5% more rage because crits give double rage.
If you gained 5% haste thats about 5% more rage because you attack more often, and rage gain is based on unhasted speed, so you do get more by having haste.
If you gained a few hundred armor pen you'd gain more rage (not quite as much per itemization point, but some), because youd do more damage. The rage normalization makes this a less than 5% gain for an equivalent amount of itemization, but its still some.


Increasing any of your stats increases rage. The others just also give more dps.