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taro
04-01-2008, 04:41 AM
I am a big fan of EH... but wth the new avoidance reduction in Sunwell, should tanks gear EH or Avoidance? Any thoughts?

tamral
04-01-2008, 07:19 AM
I am a big fan of EH... but wth the new avoidance reduction in Sunwell, should tanks gear EH or Avoidance? Any thoughts?

Considering the majority of the damage on Kalecgos is not from physical damage, stam and EH are probably better solutions than avoidance. For brutallus, given the mechanics I have read, expertise/avoidance seems more favored

Edgewalker
04-01-2008, 08:17 AM
You die from burst in Sunwell, not a slow drain on healer mana or a long fight.

Gaeta
04-01-2008, 08:54 AM
For Kalecgos, we found success with a 2-tank (both warrior) strat, so we both stocked up on EH. We found that the greatest chance for burst damage is downstairs on the demon after a knockdown. If you don't have a secondary tank taunt off of you for a few seconds, you're basically tanking a mob with no parry, dodge, or shield block for 3-5 seconds, so you'll want all the AC and HP you can get. If the rumors are true (about the aura being removed or lessened after Phase 3 is complete on a server), then regemming all of your gear to make up for the loss of dodge will hurt you in the long run.

---G

Worldie
04-01-2008, 05:23 PM
EH by far. expecially since when stunned, avoidance is going to not help you.

Nicki
04-01-2008, 06:35 PM
You die from burst in Sunwell, not a slow drain on healer mana or a long fight.

Avoidance takes a huge hit in sunwell due to this aura and currently ive taken a few hits from kalecgos and seem to be prefering avoidance...I -may- change this new opinion but currently at 21-22k health I don't feel that theres much more EH can do for me...so I swapped in avoidance gear...Only had a few tries best advise is to experiment and find something that works.

Edgewalker
04-02-2008, 06:22 AM
For Kalecgos, we found success with a 2-tank (both warrior) strat, so we both stocked up on EH. We found that the greatest chance for burst damage is downstairs on the demon after a knockdown. If you don't have a secondary tank taunt off of you for a few seconds, you're basically tanking a mob with no parry, dodge, or shield block for 3-5 seconds, so you'll want all the AC and HP you can get. If the rumors are true (about the aura being removed or lessened after Phase 3 is complete on a server), then regemming all of your gear to make up for the loss of dodge will hurt you in the long run.

---G


No it won't, having 40% dodge instead of 20% dodge in the long run won't magically make you a worse tank. The only fight where you can argue health over avoidance is the demon phase of Kalecgos, which honestly, if you are having trouble with, you don't really need to worry about latter Sunwell tanking regardless. His damage is regular, slow, and you can easily juggle him onto Kalecgos and yourself if your good with threat.

Gaeta
04-02-2008, 10:27 AM
No it won't, having 40% dodge instead of 20% dodge in the long run won't magically make you a worse tank. The only fight where you can argue health over avoidance is the demon phase of Kalecgos, which honestly, if you are having trouble with, you don't really need to worry about latter Sunwell tanking regardless. His damage is regular, slow, and you can easily juggle him onto Kalecgos and yourself if your good with threat.

Let me quote again:

"If the rumors are true (about the aura being removed or lessened after Phase 3 is complete on a server), then regemming all of your gear to make up for the loss of dodge will hurt you in the long run."

I'd be seriously concerned about rage starvation issues after Phase 3 (assuming the rumors are true) with a 40+% dodge rating on top of 25% parry. I don't have the luxury of two sets of T6 to gem differently.

Regards,
---G

Vimy
04-02-2008, 12:19 PM
I have been thinking about this all recently as well. Many things have come to mind and on Kalecgos i experimented a fair bit. However i do believe there are some things we can state. I would highly doubt the reduction of the aura would occur after phase 3. If it does, it simply makes the fights very trivial to say the least. Notwithstanding this, as progression tanks we gear for the fights we are currently on, not fights where there "may be a change coming"

To further this, i will state

1) Effective health and the subsequent theories and knowledge took into account many things. On bosses that are burst type fights, EH was the way to go as it allowed your healers a "buffer" for burst and as stated in many forums "stamina is always there". However what effective health does not overcome is a very fast swinging high damage / swing boss such as Brutallus. I will get into that fight more below.
2) Effective health and gemming for +12 stamina was the way to go when the stamina amounts on gear were not incredible, nor truly were the avoidance stats. This smoothed many encounters for guilds as their tanks were able to take more incoming damage. However with T6 gear and offpieces the effective armor and health on avoidance pieces is fairly substantial. Gearing for avoidance and gemming for avoidance does not "gimp" you as much as it did before.
3) Maxing effective health is not the do all and end all, nor has it been. It has always been stated to have a EH level that is suitable for the boss encounter. Many intelligent tanks would, as their gear would allow, substitute in avoidance or threat pieces as their healers became more accustomed to the fights.
4) Progression raiding means understanding what you are up against. In sunwell, as it CURRENTLY stands (progression raiding) rage is not, nor will it be an issue. Threat simply isnt an issue due to the taunt mechanic and the way the fights are layed out. Therefore it is more advisable to gear for EH while maxing your avoidance for bosses. Kalecgos hits hard, but it is predictable damage and the only burst comes from corrupting strikes. With intelligent healing / tanking this is easily overcome so effective health is NOT as crucial.
5) Brutallus is, and will always be an avoidance tank fight. CAN it be done in a full EH set? Yes. But kiss your healers, day and night, for keeping you alive. EH has always taken into account a NON fast hitting boss with intermittant burst. Brutallus is a VERY fast hitting boss who bursts frequently. Full EH tanks are seeing 4 hits (one main hand and one off hand) in 2 secs from brutallus for totals over 24k. Additionally there is VERY little spell damage here for your effective health to need to soak up (armor does nothing for spell damage we all screamed 10 months ago) Your healers will win the fight for an EH tank. Tanks will win the fight in avoidance gear. Avoidance IS the way to go for this fight.

No, i dont expect everyone to have 2 sets of T6. I do however feel at this level of content, where the boss characteristics have been changed, you simply will gain more survivability with avoidance than you will with EH. My opinion is

1) Gear for avoidance without neglecting EH substanitally.
2) Gem for avoidance without neglecting EH substanitally

For progression we currently are on Brutallus, i am gemmed for EH (as it has been highly effective up till now) and sit at approx 55k EH unbuffed.

Edgewalker
04-03-2008, 09:59 AM
Let me quote again:

"If the rumors are true (about the aura being removed or lessened after Phase 3 is complete on a server), then regemming all of your gear to make up for the loss of dodge will hurt you in the long run."

I'd be seriously concerned about rage starvation issues after Phase 3 (assuming the rumors are true) with a 40+% dodge rating on top of 25% parry. I don't have the luxury of two sets of T6 to gem differently.

Regards,
---G

Let me help you out then.
The rumours aren't true.
Period.
The end.

Gaeta
04-04-2008, 08:17 AM
Let me help you out then.
The rumours aren't true.
Period.
The end.

Based on Vimy's nice post, and you assertions, Edge, you've sold me. I thought alot about it, and what you're saying does make sense. I'll regem 2-3 select pieces with avoidance in mind, and see how it goes.

Akranger
04-07-2008, 11:45 PM
Personaly i dont see a problem here. Working on Fel right now and up to this point my regular stam socketed gear has held me fine. First problem i see with going over board with avoidance, you tank anything else, your screwing your self out of rage. And when you get 'lucky' and dont get hit for a while you run out of rage/threat.
These bosses hit HARD, the more stam/armor/sheild block value you have the better chances you ahve to stay alive. Again, IMO, nothings changed, things just hit harder. Healers problem not ours.

Vimy
04-17-2008, 07:23 AM
Personaly i dont see a problem here. Working on Fel right now and up to this point my regular stam socketed gear has held me fine. First problem i see with going over board with avoidance, you tank anything else, your screwing your self out of rage. And when you get 'lucky' and dont get hit for a while you run out of rage/threat.
These bosses hit HARD, the more stam/armor/sheild block value you have the better chances you ahve to stay alive. Again, IMO, nothings changed, things just hit harder. Healers problem not ours.


As I had posted, kiss your healers then. I have no idea how tanks are raged starved ever in any gear in Sunwell. In full avoidance (which I use for Brutallus, much easier on my healers) I dont run out of rage ever, i cannot burn rage quick enough.

Can I ask what health numbers you are sitting at? I have seen combined 13k hits / sec from brutallus. Be glad 2 of your healers are healing you / landing heals every second. We have brutallus down, we are working on Felmyst. EH makes your healers lives much harder. In a standard 2 second swing I can easily avoid 3 of the 4 hits. Your EH, with 50% less armor, is taking incredible hits.

I am amazed at your "Healers problem not ours" comment. As a tank my role is:

1) To obtain and maintain a rotation of threat to allow dps to push to their fullest
2) To minimize incoming damage

Methinks you are overlooking #2. I still in my avoidance gear stand infront of Brut with nearly 23.5 k health, so im not giving up much, but 40% dodge combined with high parry and of course miss rate makes the fight trivial. I havent socketed for avoidance, just making intelligent gear choices.

However your guild does it, great to you all and grats on your successes. I personally do my most to fufill the 2 roles above. Makes my life, and the raids life far more easy.

byechee
04-17-2008, 09:38 AM
can you link the gear you wear for 23.5k hp and 40% dodge and "high parry"?

Vimy
04-17-2008, 12:22 PM
can you link the gear you wear for 23.5k hp and 40% dodge and "high parry"?



Sure, mind waiting till im off work?

:D

phaze
04-18-2008, 10:43 AM
EH makes your healers lives much harder. In a standard 2 second swing I can easily avoid 3 of the 4 hits.

75% avoidance in SWP = awesome! But that doesn't match the 40% you say later on. ;)



Your EH, with 50% less armor, is taking incredible hits.

I'd think that the difference is not so pronounced between the two gear sets. Guesstimating, I'd say you could switch from a +2k health, +1k armor EH set over to a set that is +8-10% avoidance? (Off the cuff; if someone's done a more thorough comparison, feel free to correct it.)

The armor shift while affected by Stomp is reduced to ~500; but it's not like like you're ignoring armor/stam/avoidance in either gear set, to begin with.

Based on your 23.5k health, you're focusing on giving up extra armor but not health, while boosting your avoidance. Sounds like an excellent blend of approaches for this fight, to me! =)



As a tank my role is:

1) To obtain and maintain a rotation of threat to allow dps to push to their fullest
2) To minimize incoming damage

Methinks you are overlooking #2.

You're leaving off #0: Surviving! ;) As you state, you already have sufficient EH to survive. That doesn't mean that EH is useless, it just takes a backseat once its primary goal is met (surviving the spikes). With the risk of burst damage taken care of, you can focus on efficiency through boosting avoidance.

I think the EH and Avoidance camps are a lot closer in practice, than they may sound on forums. =)



However your guild does it, great to you all and grats on your successes.
Very true, and should always be stressed after the theorycrafting is done; pick the path that works best for you and your guild. =)

Vimy
04-18-2008, 12:03 PM
Phaze,

Ok, my apologies i took some of my original response (first page) for granted.

My whole point is the EH vs Avoidance isnt that major anymore at the sunwell level. I do go the avoidance route vs the EH on Brutallus. I have tanked it both ways, and for my guild it is far more effective.

With avoidance, as you have stated, i dont give up much anymore for large percentage gains in dodge / parry.

With my "full avoidance" stats im running 40.25 dodge, 21.5% parry (all unbuffed) added with miss is a nice avoidance rate. Yes i understand the effects of the debuff. Whereas in effective health, in PURE HEALTH, i gain 1800 health, however i lose 13% dodge, parry remains the same, and i gain 400 armor or so, and of course block value suffers.

Survivability goes hand in hand with mitigation of damage. As i have said, i think its best to the guild / tank involved. But EH has not suited me better than avoidance on this.

Whereas on kalecgos, i tank him in full EH gear. I am not an avoidance tank, i just simply use what works better for me. Stable incoming damage, stun effect (not worthwhile for avoidance). My main arguement is that rage starvation is no longer an issue with an avoidance gearset in Sunwell. It is a null arguement (so far up to felmyst for me anyway)

Jock
04-21-2008, 09:24 PM
I still see the same arguement for EH as before. I haven't had the luxury of doing brutallus, but even if you have a higher chance of avoiding attacks, you WILL at some point get that string of attacks that will come. This means you will leave yourself open to taking more damage by using avoidance gear than EH gear when that time comes. I can understand especially the first few times where healers will like it cause if you do manage to avoid an attack it is significantly easier to heal through, but they always have to be able to handle that one time it doesn't. Either that or you have to be willing to tip your cap to a fight, come back and wait til the extra 8-10% avoidance works out for 6 minutes.

Indris
04-22-2008, 02:37 AM
Brutallus is pretty much the only fight where tank's gear REALLY matters a lot, and is incidentally the only one where I would prefer maxxed avoidance over usual health / armor / avoidance mix, for the simple reason that there had hardly been any times I died to a blow which I would otherwise survive if I had 1-2k more health, on other hand there's been a countless amount of times where I did survive by dodging a hit which would have been guaranteed to kill me if I was wearing my max health gear.

When a boss is capable of producing ~30k damage within one second, not gearing for avoidance seems like a bad call to me.

Jock
04-22-2008, 06:58 AM
on other hand there's been a countless amount of times where I did survive by dodging a hit which would have been guaranteed to kill me if I was wearing my max health gear.


You can't even come close to saying this. If you were in EH gear, you would have had about 5-10% less chance to avoid that hit. This is true, but you still have some avoidance in EH gear. It isn't ALL gone just because you put on a set of EH gear. You cannot validly say without seeing how the rolls came out that the extra 5-10% avoidance was the only part that contributed to you avoiding those hit.

I understand also that avoidance will help. If you take 1 less swing, specially for Brutallus who hits like a truck, that is a lot of damage you don't take while getting spiked. What I am mearly saying is IF the healers can keep you up in EH gear then you are able to endure the times where you are not able to avoid any hits. This still will happen even with a full avoidance set.

Maybe this boss hits too hard and if you can't avoid 1 hit while getting spiked you have to wipe it up and come back and try it until you do, but I seriously doubt it.

Sounds to me like EH would significantly help out and as long as you have enough of it, then you healers might get a little more stressed when you don't avoid a swing, but instead of them going "What happened to you?" during those times, they are expecting it.

People keep telling me that you can't go effective health though, so it is possible that the senario from 2 paragraphs up is the case. In that case, it would be worthwhile to get a set of avoidance gear and gem practically straight +10 dodge for the avoidance. I just can't see that being the case at this point. If you have numbers, wws, etc, I'd love to see them.

Hearing simply that I would need 5-7k healing taken in 1 second isn't enough. In my opinion if your healers are in Sunwell it shouldn't be an issue to time a big heal with a mechanic like this.

Edgewalker
04-22-2008, 08:29 AM
You can't even come close to saying this. If you were in EH gear, you would have had about 5-10% less chance to avoid that hit. This is true, but you still have some avoidance in EH gear. It isn't ALL gone just because you put on a set of EH gear. You cannot validly say without seeing how the rolls came out that the extra 5-10% avoidance was the only part that contributed to you avoiding those hit.

I understand also that avoidance will help. If you take 1 less swing, specially for Brutallus who hits like a truck, that is a lot of damage you don't take while getting spiked. What I am mearly saying is IF the healers can keep you up in EH gear then you are able to endure the times where you are not able to avoid any hits. This still will happen even with a full avoidance set.

Maybe this boss hits too hard and if you can't avoid 1 hit while getting spiked you have to wipe it up and come back and try it until you do, but I seriously doubt it.

Sounds to me like EH would significantly help out and as long as you have enough of it, then you healers might get a little more stressed when you don't avoid a swing, but instead of them going "What happened to you?" during those times, they are expecting it.

People keep telling me that you can't go effective health though, so it is possible that the senario from 2 paragraphs up is the case. In that case, it would be worthwhile to get a set of avoidance gear and gem practically straight +10 dodge for the avoidance. I just can't see that being the case at this point. If you have numbers, wws, etc, I'd love to see them.

Hearing simply that I would need 5-7k healing taken in 1 second isn't enough. In my opinion if your healers are in Sunwell it shouldn't be an issue to time a big heal with a mechanic like this.


As a general rule of thumb, without seeing a boss fight for yourself, it's just a waste of everyones time to assume possibilities in beating it.

Foolishness
04-22-2008, 09:01 AM
It still surprises me that people think they have an avoidance set if they put red gems in their gear.

veneretio
04-22-2008, 09:04 AM
It still surprises me that people think they have an avoidance set if they put red gems in their gear.
What else would you call a set with all dodge gems?

Hypatia
04-22-2008, 09:14 AM
Gemming a set of gear with all dodge gems is neither necessary nor sufficient to build an avoidance set.

Aelvain
04-22-2008, 03:00 PM
I still see the same arguement for EH as before. I haven't had the luxury of doing brutallus, but even if you have a higher chance of avoiding attacks, you WILL at some point get that string of attacks that will come. This means you will leave yourself open to taking more damage by using avoidance gear than EH gear when that time comes. I can understand especially the first few times where healers will like it cause if you do manage to avoid an attack it is significantly easier to heal through, but they always have to be able to handle that one time it doesn't. Either that or you have to be willing to tip your cap to a fight, come back and wait til the extra 8-10% avoidance works out for 6 minutes.

You clearly have no idea how much burst potential there is in Sunwell. The chances of the fairly limited amount of health you can get from stamina stacking saving you are lower than avoidance, plain and simple. When bosses can hit for over 10k repeatedly, stamina becomes pretty irrelevant.

Jock
04-22-2008, 03:29 PM
Read the rest of what I wrote before you do. These would be only 1 case for Avoidance over EH and this would be it:



Maybe this boss hits too hard and if you can't avoid 1 hit while getting spiked you have to wipe it up and come back and try it until you do, but I seriously doubt it.


Yes, I haven't seen the Fight, but it is scripted and I can figure mathematically/statistically what will happen when I get there. I plan every bossfight I do in advance so that I have 0 surprises when I get there. Here is what it will take rather than "your just being ignorant" or "your an idiot". Give me some facts... some numbers. Some like I highlighted below.

The basic idea of EH is you are able to take as much damage as possible without needing a heal meaning that the heal can take longer to come. The basic idea of Avoidance is that you can try to avoid more attacks so that you don't need as much healing. The downside to avoidance is that you WILL get that string of hits. "Then what?" is my main question.



People keep telling me that you can't go effective health though, so it is possible that the senario from 2 paragraphs up is the case. In that case, it would be worthwhile to get a set of avoidance gear and gem practically straight +10 dodge for the avoidance. I just can't see that being the case at this point. If you have numbers, wws, etc, I'd love to see them.

Hearing simply that I would need 5-7k healing taken in 1 second isn't enough. In my opinion if your healers are in Sunwell it shouldn't be an issue to time a big heal with a mechanic like this.




At the post above me. I have no objections to the fact that having more avoidance means you take less damage. That will be true in every fight at this stage in the game. However, the key is to be able to live through the spike damage. I understand there is a lot of spike damage, but I'm looking for something that will explain why 20k AC and 26k hp isn't good enough and I need to drop to 22k hp, 18k AC and pick up 5-10% avoidance. It makes no sense as I cannot take as much spike dmg. The only way it does make sense is what I have been saying...... the boss hits so hard that even 26k hp/20k AC raid buffed isn't enough EH to cover it and I must avoid a hit to live.

Indris
04-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Having recently killed Brutallus and done some attempts on Felmyst, here's my 2c:

Brutallus is the only real hard hitter there so far; Kalecgos and Felmyst both can land some pretty massive hits but you could beat them with whatever gear setup really, just mix n match to your preference.

So the question, in my opinion, more or less boils down to, "EH or Avoidance" for Brutallus. Again, there isn't a single 'right' or 'wrong' way to gear for it seeing as it's been killed both with people stacking stam/armor and people stacking dodge. However, my personal opinion is such:

Dodge is vastly superior to stacking health; armor is important but you get it naturally with high ilvl gear and 120 armor / 240 armor enchants aren't really worth it; maybe the gloves one is but doubt that either.

Reason to that is simple: IF you do get a 'worst case' scenario string of hits from Brutallus, you're dead. Plain and simple. The boss is capable of dealing OVER 30.000 damage within the span of 1.2 seconds, he can deliver a steady 15k dps for 10 seconds straight, etc. His damage is not possible to outheal, simple as that.

Your life is going to be in the hands of almighty RNG one way or the other. In my opinion, having 15% extra avoidance is much more likely to save my hide - and my raid - than 2k more health which incidentally isn't even enough to cover up for a single extra hit.

The few times I did die to him during our learning tries, no amount of stamina gems would have saved me - vast majority of deaths were due to such incredible amounts of damage coming in such a short timespan that I would require perhaps 5-10k more health to survive it.

There were on other hand many, many times where a single extra hit as opposed to a dodge would have caused me to die, wiping the raid.


Brutallus aside, there is little point gearing for full out HP on Felmyst either, imo. She swings pretty slowly, your healers should have plenty of time to recover you regardless if you have 23k or 25k health - but extra avoidance can possibly allow them some breaks for regen etc, and actually makes the damage spikes less likely - as you won't take multiple big hits in a row as often.

When you get over 20k health from gear alone, slight adjustements to increase it by 3-5% aren't as noticeable as 3-5% extra avoidance, imo; especially when you're taking hits that are worth close to half your max hp pool.

edit: the usual argument of, 'dodge = no rage, so nerfs your threat' is null in Sunwell seeing as everything hits hard enough to keep your rage bar filled, and Sunwell radiance ensures you WILL take some hits every so often regardless of how much avoidance you have.

Hypatia
04-22-2008, 06:10 PM
To bring some numbers into it (and yes, they are totally straw-man numbers, but this is just to illustrate the difference between avoidance and EH):

Let's imagine that we have a ten minute boss fight. We'll say this is a super simple fight, and the boss swings every two seconds, plain and simple. We'll further say that it will take four hits to kill you.

Let's further say that the difference in EH between the EH gear and the avoidance gear is not enough to save you. If you get hit four times in a row without getting a heal, you are dead, either way. We'll assume that any heal that lands will save you. And, for the sake of argument, the EH set has ~50% avoidance, and the avoidance set has ~60%.

There will be 300 swings in a 10 minute fight. There will be slightly less sets of four swings, but we can round up to 300, it's close enough.

The chance of any given sequence of four swings including four hits is 0.5^4, or 0.0625 with 50% avoidance. The chance is 0.6^4, or 0.0256 with 60% avoidance.

That means that the expected number of four-swings-in-a-row-all-hit with 50% avoidance is 18.75. And, the expected number of four-swings-in-a-row-all-hit with 60% avoidance is 7.68.

As stated before, we're assuming that if four swings in a row hit and no heal lands during that period, the result is death. So: what circumstances can cause that to happen, and what events can mitigate the chance of it happening?

The primary reason that heals won't land is that something is prevent the healers from healing. For example, the healers are all out of position because of a fear, or they're silenced, or something of that sort. It's also possible that they just messed up somehow.

So, what can keep you from dying during these sequences? Well, there are emergency buttons. You have them, healers have them. Sometimes non-healers have them (either because they're off-spec healing classes, or perhaps there's some other ability that can save your ass.)

So, what I'm trying to suggest here is two things:

First, high avoidance greatly reduces the chance that a long string of bad hits will take place. That means that the chance of that event overlapping with anything that prevents healing is reduced by a lot. (In the case of screw-ups: There are half as many opportunities to screw up.)

Second, it greatly increases the expected time between these events occurring. That means that emergency measures on timers are more likely to have cooled down before it happens again.


Finally, it decreases the likelihood that an even worse string of hits will prevent recovery. Assuming that the emergency that caused a problem will take a moment to recover from, consider that if whatever emergency button is used buys two hits worth of health breathing space, the overall chance of getting six bad hits in a row is 0.03125 for the 50% avoidance gear, and 0.004096 for the 60% avoidance gear.


Now, on the flip side of the coin, what EH will buy you in this kind of scenario is a slightly larger range of things that will save your ass. Specifically, small fast heals are more likely to keep you alive for an extra hit with the EH gear. Armor is more effective than HP here: If you assume equal amounts of armor, then that buffer is effectively gone until you're topped off after the emergency. If you assume the EH set has more armor, then the small heal counts for more current EH gained after the event.


Anyway, what it comes down to is this: There is definitely a very strong case to be made for using as much avoidance as possible without reducing the number of hits you can take in a row from full health. If n hits without healing will kill you in either case, increasing avoidance has the potential to greatly decrease the frequency with which n hits will occur in a row, which has a huge impact on the likelihood of both failed healing and failed avoidance happening at the same time.

As a final tidbit, I would like to point out that emergency button trinkets tend to work by boosting avoidance. Let's say that after two hits in a row (when it's also clear that healing is in trouble somehow), either tank hits their Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28528). This increases your dodge chance by 15.85%. After using this item, the chance of the 50% avoidance tank taking two more hits is ~0.1166. The chance of the 60% avoidance tank taking two more hits is ~0.0583.

Jock
04-22-2008, 07:18 PM
Reason to that is simple: IF you do get a 'worst case' scenario string of hits from Brutallus, you're dead. Plain and simple. The boss is capable of dealing OVER 30.000 damage within the span of 1.2 seconds, he can deliver a steady 15k dps for 10 seconds straight, etc. His damage is not possible to outheal, simple as that.


TY this is what I'm looking for. It isn't so much the 30k in 1 second I'm worried about as the 15k dps. My healers aren't that great from the start, but if they can't time 1 heal to land in a second, we aren't going anywhere that fight. (I raid with ~25k hp and 20k AC raid buffed in EH gear). Currently the LC I raid for doesn't think i need avoidance, so all the best in slot avoidance pieces go to my OT first. Plus they basically told me I wont be able to get spinels. I wasn't happy, but I have to make do. Was hoping that the EH I have would work. By these numbers and the rest of what you posted I should be fine. It may mean I take more damage overall for the fight, but I still have about 53% avoidance in that gear set (before sunwell 'buff'). Shouldn't be too bad off.... May toss a couple avoidance trinkets on to help with the stomp.

Edgewalker
04-22-2008, 09:21 PM
Gemming a set of gear with all dodge gems is neither necessary nor sufficient to build an avoidance set.

It certainly helps though.
I think everyone is aware that gemming random pieces with dodge gems doesn't constitute an avoidance set though.

Foolishness
04-22-2008, 11:38 PM
I think everyone is aware that gemming random pieces with dodge gems doesn't constitute an avoidance set though.

So this means i have to assume people are clever? My perception of reality is crashing down on me.

Avarice
04-26-2008, 12:49 AM
While this is by no means empirical data, we switched from EH oriented gear to avoidance on Brut about 70% of the way through original attempts. From that point forward, tank deaths not associated with att-specific errors vanished almost entirely. While a tank needs to be able to survive a stomp/swing/swing burst, consumables/intervene and taunt management make that viable without stacking gear HP. The tank deaths we were experiencing were associated with tanks getting hit for 7-10 seconds without a break, the heals simply could not keep up with that output.

Kalec originally fared best with EH, but now that our tanks are in some of the new pieces, it doesn't matter all that much. I really think that this was a coordination issue more than a gear survivability issue. Definitely need enough hp for corrupt/swing/swing, I dunno how much that actually is.

Felmyst is tanked in threat gear. We intervene on corrosion, tank death isn't really ever a problem. Aggro on landing is the primary tanking concern.

The amount of burst currently possible on Eredar is astronomical. Sacrolash hits nearly as hard as Brutallus, nearly as fast or faster than Brutallus, and can crush for 11k. (WTF?) In addition, she spawns adds that can STUN or mellee, and has a special unmissable ~7800 Confounding Strike. Oh, and sometimes she swings both weapons simultaneously with said Confounding Strike, in a burst that can potentially top 23k. Oh, and Shadow Blades. Oh, and a stacking -%heal debuff. Me getting rofled for 3 seconds. (http://files.filefront.com/sighavi/;10050641;/fileinfo.html):mad:

What I'm getting at here is, the way you gear will make a difference, but not THE difference. We've had better luck with mostly avoidance stuff, me with a little more sta focus because I'm not tauren. In the end, it's going to be the RNG fates that decides if you die, so there's really not much purpose in arguing about the gear <__<

I don't know what direction that theorycraft, microsoft excel, and other speculations point to for this zone. I've never really bothered much with that line of research. Just my experiences here.

Xav
04-26-2008, 12:49 PM
Demoralizing shout not up and no Ironshield, and you're complaining about dying? Tsk tsk. :)

Ferro
04-26-2008, 01:39 PM
I still in my avoidance gear stand infront of Brut with nearly 23.5 k health, so im not giving up much, but 40% dodge combined with high parry and of course miss rate makes the fight trivial. I havent socketed for avoidance, just making intelligent gear choices.

I'm still waiting for this set mentioned 2 pages ago. Doesnt seem possible to me.

Max raid buffs (this includes Tauren & bloodpact) would be about 6000 HP

1. Are you tauren?
2. Do you have bloodpact for Brut?

Ill assume no, on both. So then, I wanna see this character sheet.

19000 Health
40% Dodge
22-25% Parry
13% Miss

Unbuffed.

I could see 16.5k ..maybe 17k. But I don't see 19k with 40% dodge possible.

Kamani
04-26-2008, 02:55 PM
I'm still waiting for this set mentioned 2 pages ago. Doesnt seem possible to me.

Max raid buffs (this includes Tauren & bloodpact) would be about 6000 HP

1. Are you tauren?
2. Do you have bloodpact for Brut?

Ill assume no, on both. So then, I wanna see this character sheet.

19000 Health
40% Dodge
22-25% Parry
13% Miss

Unbuffed.

I could see 16.5k ..maybe 17k. But I don't see 19k with 40% dodge possible.

With the best gear in the game(including full Sunwell) as a Tauren, the nearest you can get to the above is:

19786 armor
17466 health
40.24 dodge
22.09 parry
538 defense

Avarice
04-26-2008, 03:16 PM
Demoralizing shout not up and no Ironshield, and you're complaining about dying? Tsk tsk. :)

No, I was complaining about burst potential. It's higher than any other boss in the zone so far, with or without the presence of debuffs, and only moderately dependent on gear focus. I have my reasons for the mentioned being absent for this particular clip, but they're irrelevant to the thread and I'm not in it to wag my e-peen at this obvious flame bait.



With the best gear in the game(including full Sunwell) as a Tauren, the nearest you can get to the above is:

19786 armor
17466 health
40.24 dodge
22.09 parry
538 defense

Probably true, but a guild working on Brut isn't gonna be near that high. Our cow has the best everything in the live game other than (I think) Brut neck and the Illi helm. (gg 1 drop in 8 months) His hp in avoidance gear (~38.5% unbuffed dodge, 22% parry) is about 17.5k. He does have more armor, so there may be some room for stam-- certainly not 150 stam, though. I couldn't find the original person claiming those stats, it does sound exaggerated. Regardless, avoidance works very well for this encounter in my experience.

Xav
04-27-2008, 01:29 AM
Flame bait? Nah. And her burst potential isn't higher than Brutallus during Stomp. The max burst I've taken from Sacrolash is about 19k damage, and that's a Confounding + forced double crush because she hits you while you're unable to block, before she switches targets due to the CC. But 19k damage is healable and you get topped off while roaming around confused. But when you start taking crushes in the 11k+ range because there's no demo and not properly buffing, you start seeing it as unhealable and dying.

That was my point.

Avarice
04-28-2008, 01:07 PM
Our disagreement seems to stem from a semantic gap. I am defining 'burst' here as a portion of damage that is possible between two heals, something like a 3-5 second period. If you could die from instantaneous burst while within ideal tanking conditions, the encounter would be broken. So, obviously it can't be much higher than Brutallus with the gear available.

The bursts on Brutallus, however, are at entirely predictable intervals, and in positions that intervene and taunt management can be used to alleviate. The ones in the Twins encounter can happen almost anytime, and may feature much more healing-inhibitive contingencies. Maybe your dedicated healer(s) get stunned, maybe one has to change positions for conflag. Crushes are not just from Confound but can be encountered from the add stun as well, and even during regular tanking time. Maybe Sear just hit you and you've got 2 adds Dark Striking as well. Maybe there was no Sear but your healing debuff is at 5-8 from freshly spawned adds. Just a lot of possibilities that the right gear won't fix.

You're probably right about demo, though, as I'm not finding any 11k hits (or even 10k, for that matter) on attempts in the last 2 raids that fought them. I guess that's a warning to any guild learning the encounter.

Edgewalker
04-28-2008, 05:44 PM
Not too mention that the chance of a maximum possible Sacrolash burst is extraordinarily rare compared to the bursts on Brutallus.
I normally get crushed 4-5 times throughout entire attempts or kills on twins, with our kills maxing out at 4 crushes I think. I can count on one hand the amount of times I was Confounding, Crushed, Crushed.

ALEXTREBEK
04-29-2008, 08:39 PM
Man, to think I was going to come in here dropping numbers all over the place as to why Avoidance > E-HP in Sunwell, only to find a few decent tanks championing mathematical reason. <3 you guys. =)

And for the record, 240 Armor to Gloves will theoretically offer slightly less damage reduction than 15 Agility will offer, however, the damage reduction from 240 Armor is empirical, as opposed to theoretical (Avoidance), which is why it is generally superior. I can't remember at this point why I bothered to write this, but I have a feeling I wrote it because someone was wrong (or misinformed) on the internet, in this thread.

Math lol

Assuming our Sunwell Warrior has 19,500 Armor Buffed. We're going to be adding 240 Armor, so our Warrior will now have 19,740 Armor.

The Damage Reduction for 19,500 Armor facing a L73 ULTIMATE RAID BOSS is 19,500 / 31,460, or ~62.0&#37;.

The Damage Reduction for 19,740 Armor facing a L73 R8=D BOSS is 19,740 / 31,700, or ~62.3%.

Basically, we're seeing somewhere around 0.3% more empirical Damage Reduction against a L73 attacker, versus 15 Agility's 0.5% more theoretical Damage Reduction, and 0.5% theoretical Crit. (With Kings).

And for the record, 10 Stamina should not even be compared to 240 Armor, doing so would just be idiotic. If you're trying to decide between the two, I'll be kind and drop the hint that you should pick up the 240 Armor.