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sevve
03-31-2008, 05:10 AM
So I guess the Gnomeregan Auto-blocker 600 has been set aside.
According to Gingamok’s Rule of Thumb(0.6-0.7% hit = 1% crit = 29 block value = 49 AP), Shard of Contempt is almost 3 times the threat of chaining Auto-Blocker.
Am I missing something?

Radhja
03-31-2008, 05:27 AM
Seems like something is missing...

...oh yeah, SBV.

How is this replacing GAB600? If anything, it's my new secondary trink. (Dabiri's and Adamantite aren't looking as sexy anymore...)

Naka
03-31-2008, 05:44 AM
Assuming you're already dodge capped, the shard is about 2 times the threat of the auto-blocker (-2.75% parry vs. 59 SBV) in longer fights. Auto-blocker is still nice for burst thread and pvp of course. :)
And, don't forget that SBV is also a mitigation stat.

MasterWolf
03-31-2008, 07:37 AM
Isn't Expertise basically capped at 22? Without much effort, I have like 20 expertise... why would you use this?

Ciderhelm
03-31-2008, 08:53 AM
Shard of Contempt is significantly better than Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600. There's zero situation where you'd choose the Auto-Blocker over the Shard for Threat. Even if you're at capped Expertise, the Shard is superior in that you can take off other Expertise that aren't itemized as well.

Ceravantes
03-31-2008, 09:02 AM
The Shard of Contempt really frees you up to swap better itemized gear in to your normal set, while maintaining a high expertise skill, I am very happy to have seen this trinket before Commendation of Kael'Thas

Ruminator
03-31-2008, 12:30 PM
It's early for me, so my brain is in kind of a fog right now - so bear with me:

What is the "dodge cap?" I wasn't aware there was one.

Also, what is the generally accepted "expertise cap?"

At what point would it make sense for me to stop worry about both of these stats altogether? I actually picked up the expertise ring on normal Mag Ter last night, and was thinking of using it for my normal tanking set instead of the Shermanar. Maybe I'm at the point where that would be a mistake (usually my deaths while tanking are immediately preceeded by the boss parrying).

Thanks!

elio
03-31-2008, 01:25 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but expertise cap to remove dodge is about 26-27 and to remove parries is about 43 or so. Please someone confirm.

I agree with Ciderhelm in my current expertise/aggro set (expertise at 32) I generate much more threat than I do in my SBV (which is 982 SBV-untrinketed).

Naka
03-31-2008, 06:13 PM
Bosses have 5.6% chance to dodge, so the expertise soft cap (which is what i meant by typing "dodge cap" ;)) is at 23.
Parry rate is assumed to be 10.6% on most bosses, but may be higher on some bosses, so you'll need at least 43 to remove parries.

kawika
03-31-2008, 07:22 PM
Shard of Contempt is significantly better than Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600. There's zero situation where you'd choose the Auto-Blocker over the Shard for Threat. Even if you're at capped Expertise, the Shard is superior in that you can take off other Expertise that aren't itemized as well.

Is this true regardless if the new meta is being used? Given the new trinkets available, i will need to figure out my setups when i get them. My tanking experience is limited to Kara, ZA (bear, eagle and lynx down..working on dragonhawk), and Gruuls. I did mag once (pre 2.4) and was the last summoner tank.

My goal was to get both the shard and the commendation trinks from MgT. I have the shard now but still need to get the commendation.

I've been going with Moroes + autoblocker for some time now for 5 mans, heroics, kara.

For the tougher stuff (ZA trash and bosses, gruuls) i go with moroes + vengance. I tried both the vengance with the commander's badge and while the extra health was nice...felt i needed the avoidance from the moroes trink to push my incoming damage taken down a bit to help my healers out.


Would the Shard be more ideal in either of those situations, generally speaking? Or would it be more situational?

Taelas
04-01-2008, 07:41 AM
And, don't forget that SBV is also a mitigation stat.
So is Expertise.

Leytur
04-01-2008, 08:42 AM
So is Expertise.

Other than removing the quicker attack from a boss, how is expertise a mitigation stat? I can see how it reduces a tiny bit of dmg, but nowhere near as much as SBV. Or am I stupid?

Kazeyonoma
04-01-2008, 09:06 AM
reducing parry gibs is way way way more than just a "tiny bit of dmg". A lot of raid tanks die to getting parry gibbed. Expertise is the ONLY way to reduce this aside from telling dps to fight from behind.

byechee
04-01-2008, 09:55 AM
there are now plenty of fights where blizzard has removed the parry gib mechanic, so expertise can no longer be considered mitigation on those fights.

Taelas
04-01-2008, 10:01 AM
Other than removing the quicker attack from a boss, how is expertise a mitigation stat? I can see how it reduces a tiny bit of dmg, but nowhere near as much as SBV. Or am I stupid?

Reducing Parry directly reduces incoming DPS. Considering that parries can be back-to-back, this is more than just "a bit". It is not as obvious, and it is not as much as SBV, but it's there.

Ruminator
04-01-2008, 11:58 AM
Which fights has the mechanic been removed on?

Ceravantes
04-01-2008, 12:02 PM
Bosses have 5.6% chance to dodge, so the expertise soft cap (which is what i meant by typing "dodge cap" ;)) is at 23.
Parry rate is assumed to be 10.6% on most bosses, but may be higher on some bosses, so you'll need at least 43 to remove parries.

I was always under the impression that the estimated parry on most bosses was double the dodge amount, making it 11.2%, not 10.6

Naka
04-01-2008, 07:08 PM
The 5.6% boss dodge is calculated from 5% base dodge rate on level 70 mobs, plus 3 (levels) x 5 (defense skill per level) x 0.04% (dodge bonus per defense skill) = 0.6%.
If parry was double the dodge amount, it'd still be 2 x 5% (base dodge) + 0.6% (parry bonus from defense) = 10.6%.
11.2% doesn't make much sense to me.

That being said, those values are just not certain. Parry is reported to be as high as around 15% on some bosses, and wowwiki states dodge as 6.5%.

Akranger
04-08-2008, 12:08 AM
on another forum there was quiet alot of date recently to prove that some bosses have much much more parry then thought before. For example going over wws info after gruul/mag for a few weeks its safe to say they have more then 13.67% parry

Crimsonstorm
04-08-2008, 09:33 AM
Bosses have 5.6% chance to dodge, so the expertise soft cap (which is what i meant by typing "dodge cap" ;)) is at 23.
Parry rate is assumed to be 10.6% on most bosses, but may be higher on some bosses, so you'll need at least 43 to remove parries.

Actually the dodge cap is higher than this. I read a thred on EJ where one guy had 6% -dodge, and still got dodges. Someone else had 6.75% -dodge and didnt get any over thousands of attacks, which makes me think its probably 6.5%. But its not ben proven to be any specific number yet.

Miss chance goes up .5% with each level above you the mob gets (plus a wierd jump at +3). So it makes sense that dodge would also go up .5%. (But it has no wierd jump).

Parry likely goes up .5% a level too, but thats just my gut. My guess on parry is 11.5%, based on double the base dodge rate plus .5% a level. Or if it was double the dodge rate, maybe 13% even! But I havent seen any evidence for anything other than a general 10-13% or so range.

Edit: someone said its over 13% Its pretty dang high.

Crimsonstorm
04-08-2008, 09:38 AM
As to Shard vs Autoblocker:

Shard is better threat, by a significant amount. Autoblocker is good mitigation, but so is shard, though shard not by as much.
I generally use two of Shard, Autoblocker, Commendation of Kaelthas and Darkmoon Vengeance. Shard + commendation is default. Shard+Autoblocker for extra threat. Commendaiton+Vengeance for extra stam.

ttocs
04-08-2008, 10:09 AM
I use almost exactly the same setup as Crimson (swap Madness for Vengeance... damn furies deck).

Khayra
04-08-2008, 10:13 AM
there are now plenty of fights where blizzard has removed the parry gib mechanic, so expertise can no longer be considered mitigation on those fights.Can anyone confirm this? I still got dmg spikes resulting from parry haste in many encounters, so wich fights do you mean?

Kazeyonoma
04-08-2008, 10:23 AM
I haven't heard of this at all, the only mechanic I've heard of being removed was Crushing Blows in Sunwell content. and some of t6 content, nothing about parry mechanics removed.

byechee
04-08-2008, 04:21 PM
the parry gib mechanic was removed from fights such as azgalor, mother shahraz, and brutallus.

Khayra
04-08-2008, 05:26 PM
I found a post by Tigole.

02/22/2008 04:57:38 PM PST
Nalorakk and Mother Shahraz will no longer haste their attacks following a parry. A hotfix is being applied this evening to live realms. These encounters had been set up to not haste after parry for some time, but there was a bug in the implementation which we have identified.

The fix should be up soon.


I didn't find anything regarding other bosses.
I can't test it on Brutalus myself but I will log Azgalor this Sunday.
But anyway, there are a lot of encounters left where parry haste still is an issue. Or did I miss a few patch notes?
It would be nice to know, wich bosses have parry haste mechanics and wich don't.

Hypatia
04-09-2008, 12:58 AM
The general pattern you can expect is that bosses that have a mechanic that requires multiple people to melee from in front usually do not have the parry-haste mechanic. Still, parry-haste is the default behavior, and bosses with no parry-haste are the exception rather than the rule.

Specifically, both Nalorakk and Mother Shahraz have attacks that deal damage in a melee-range frontal cone which is split among the available targets. In the case of Nalorakk, this ability is Brutal Swipe (in troll form). In the case of Mother Shahraz, this ability is Saber Lash (which has side effects that are desirable for the off-tanks.)

It's possible and likely that Brutallus has parry-haste disabled, but there have to my knowledge been no blue posts indicating that this is the case, and since the attack in question (Meteor Slash) hits targets beyond melee range, I could see it going either way. The anecdotal evidence from the EJ forums suggests that parry-haste is in fact disabled for Brutallus.

There is no reason to believe that a boss like Azgalor that does not have any frontal damage-splitting attack would have their parry-haste disabled. Azgalor's frontal attack is a standard cleave that deals damage to all targets, and would seem to discourage having multiple attackers standing in front. The only reason I could see Blizzard disabling parry haste on Azgalor is the difficulty of dealing with NPC attacker positioning when NPCs join the fight.

In short: Disabled parry-haste seems to be an attribute purely of bosses that have damage-splitting attacks which are intended to be "soaked" by multiple people standing in front of them.

Aelvain
04-09-2008, 02:13 AM
Brutallus does not parry haste.

Silthias
04-09-2008, 02:38 AM
My appologise For going slightly of track with this, last night i got Shard of Contempt and im still aiming for Commendation of Kael'thas. However Im in a bit of a situation where i currently have Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch and Darkmoon Card: Vengeance and I am struggling to workout when and where to use each trinket. For new fights i would be going with Commendation of Kael'thas when I eventually get it, currently Darkmoon Card: Vengeance, so as to give the bigger buffer for the healers, but which other one to use? Threat and reduce parries, or my dodge bonus and one of my OW SHIT! buttons? Also 5 mans and Heroics, any advice anyone can offer for a 'general' setup, one that willget me by in most, of I will need to swap around, but a base line to work from.
Heres my Armoury BTW.

Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aerie+Peak&n=Silthias)

Thanks for taking the time to read and help.

Regards,

Silthias

EDIT: sorry about the links can't work out how to get them to go right. - Thanks Centx

Ceravantes
04-09-2008, 05:07 AM
use the item name inbetween tags.

Jibou
04-20-2008, 07:11 AM
I've been asking myself the same questions. What I can tell you is that for heroics you can easily go for something with max threat (shard+autoblocker) or in your case I guess shard and commendation would do (avoiding the Pocket watch because you don't want too much dodge in easy 5man). For example, in my heroic set I have 48 expertise skill, 90 hit rating and 590 SBV, but still maintain 15k hp (altho my dodge goes down to 14% :p).

Radhja
04-20-2008, 07:18 AM
Seems like something is missing...

...oh yeah, SBV.

How is this replacing GAB600? If anything, it's my new secondary trink. (Dabiri's and Adamantite aren't looking as sexy anymore...)

Having reconsidered the value of Expertise, I have to agree... for sheer threat, this blows GAB600 out of the water. Not that I'd ever get rid of my GAB600, but if I'm having aggro-issues, I'll be swapping it out for the Shard.

Damn, I REALLY regret passing this to the damn rogue now. If only I knew then what I knew now...

Karih
04-20-2008, 07:51 AM
It'll drop again, and your melee DPS need one as well to maximize their DPS. They don't really have the expertise itemization we have.

I'm lucky and have both the Shard and the Commendation. If there had of been a melee in the group with me when the Shard dropped I would've passed it to them if they didn't have it, despite how powerful a threat trinket it is just because their DPS gets a boost from it as well.

Bodasafa
05-02-2008, 05:25 PM
Well this has been a intresting read.

Personally for myself I use 1 tank set for just about eveything except when it comes to trinkets. Those are the situational swap outs.

Avlb to me I have:
-Pocket Watch
-Compass +36 stam
-Violet Badge +36 stam
-Auto-Blocker

I allways have the Auto-Blocker equiped and use Ciderhelms macro for SS. I really dont see how having the Shard generates more "snap aggro" than the Auto-Blocker. Or if you all were just refering to more aggro overall.

Personally Im allways a fan of "snap aggro" being avlb. Im going to have a really hard time ever un-equipin it. I have 35 expertise skill as it is now with the Auto-Blocker and one of the above.

Maybe its just the content Im encountering early SSC/TK/MAG, but I have yet to die to a parry gib? I do belive though having higher than 23 expertise to squash dodge is advisable.

The other trinket slot is based on need. Either I use the Pocket Watch if I need avoidance or one of the stam trinkets for more EH on progression. I plan on getting the Commendation as my "be all" stam trinket as I belive at +57 stam it is the highest in the game atm.

Getting the Scarab of Dissplacment from Hydross in SSC would also be handy for avoidance fights and might possibly be better than the Pocket Watch overall, Ill have to do some testing when I get it.

Satrina
05-03-2008, 12:43 AM
The Autoblocker has been overrated since day one. It's only lately that we've had access to any alternatives.