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Harkor
03-27-2008, 09:54 PM
So as a human I've pretty much accepted that even if my guild does manage to get the Brutalizer I will have no use for it (trying to convince the other human warrior in my guild that he shoudln't be bothering with the Cleaver from ZA instead of his mallet, but we'll cross that road later)

But I was curious since it looks like we might actually down the guy for the hyjal sword if that thing is even worth bothering for. The extra armor is nice and a little dps for devistate threat, but it doesn't really seem worth the loss of expertise (I am not yet soft capped)

Arrivan
03-27-2008, 09:58 PM
We get the expertise bonus from using swords too :)

Harkor
03-27-2008, 10:02 PM
Well yes thats why I'm actually considering it and not the brutalizer.

I'm wondering if the 14 expertise on the mallet is worth losing for the sword

Arrivan
03-27-2008, 10:06 PM
Oh, I didn't consider the expertise on the Mallet. /bonk

Without doing any number crunching, I'd be inclined to hang on to the Mallet and pick up the sword as well. I'll leave it to someone more knowledgeable than me to figure out which is better.

Hypatia
03-28-2008, 01:38 PM
I have both Mallet of the Tides (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058) and The Unbreakable Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30874), and my general feeling is that Mallet of the Tides (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058) is just plain better for a human warrior—the increased expertise is that good.

The Unbreakable Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30874) is an excellent weapon for a human tank who does not have a mallet. The Brutalizer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32254) is not as good as the mallet for a human tank, but is better for anybody else. (And is best for an orc.)

In short, for humans: Mallet of the Tides (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058) > The Unbreakable Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30874) ~ The Brutalizer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32254)

For non-humans: The Brutalizer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32254) > Mallet of the Tides (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058) > The Unbreakable Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30874)

(And this analysis comes, essentially, from the fact that I've not seen any fight where the difference in mitigation and avoidance between these weapons would have a significant impact, so it's all about the expertise.)

Tobius
03-29-2008, 05:08 AM
(trying to convince the other human warrior in my guild that he shoudln't be bothering with the Cleaver from ZA instead of his mallet, but we'll cross that road later)

I am a human warrior using Cleaver of the Unforgiving over Mallet of the Tides, am I making a mistake?

I'll admit I havent really done any number crunching on how the parry/hit/slightly higher dps and speed of the axe compared to the expertise on the mace.

Hypatia
03-29-2008, 02:12 PM
Let’s look at the numbers for the three weapons, for humans, orcs, and others.

Mallet of the Tides (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058):

115-214 weapon damage range ~= 164.5/hit
34 stamina ~= 391.0 hp (BoK, Vitality)
16 defense rating ~= 0.81% avoidance + 0.27% block
14 expertise rating ~= 3.55 expertise = 1.77% dodge+parry removal
14 expertise rating ~= 3.55 expertise + 5 expertise = 4.28% dodge+parry removal (human)

The Unbreakable Will (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30874):

112-209 weapon damage range ~= 158.9/hit
308 armor
33 stamina ~= 379.5 hp (BoK, Vitality)
21 defense rating ~= 1.07% avoidance + 0.36% block
0 expertise rating ~= 5 expertise = 2.50% dodge+parry removal (human)

The Brutalizer (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32254):

128-193 weapon damage range = 160.5/hit
33 stamina ~= 379.5 hp (BoK, Vitality)
22 defense rating ~= 1.12% avoidance + 0.37% block
21 expertise rating ~= 5.33 expertise = 2.66% dodge+parry removal
21 expertise rating ~= 5.33 expertise + 5 expertise = 5.16% dodge+parry removal


Note that I'm looking at weapon damage per hit above because Devastate brings that into play fairly significantly. The DPS difference is more obvious.


So to compare:

Mallet of the Tides vs The Unbreakable Will
-3.5 weapon DPS
+5.6 weapon damage per Devastate
-308 armor
+11.5 hp
-0.26% avoidance
-0.09% block
+3.55 expertise (1.77% dodge+parry removal)

Mallet of the Tides vs The Brutalizer
-3.5 weapon DPS
+4.5 weapon damage per Devastate
+11.5 hp
-0.31% avoidance
-0.10% block
-1.77 expertise (-0.89% dodge+parry removal)
+3.22 expertise (+1.61% dodge+parry removal) (HUMAN)
-6.77 expertise (-3.39% dodge+parry removal) (ORC)


It's my opinion that the variations in weapon DPS are pretty trivial here, especially since the Mallet is a slower weapon and benefits Devastate slightly. The HP differences are even more trivial.

The Unbreakable Will has some pretty good avoidance and mitigation benefits, since it has more armor and defense rating than Mallet of the Tides. The Brutalizer sees even better avoidance gains, but has no armor. Either TUW or TB would probably be a better choice in a fight where you feel you need to sacrifice everything to decrease your incoming damage per second. TUW will have better impact on bursty fights, with the armor. The defense rating difference between TUW and TB is minor.

With Expertise, you can see that Mallet of the Tides is the clear winner for humans, while The Brutalizer is the clear winner for everybody else. This has an impact on both the overall threat output of the weapon as well as the chances of "bad luck" strings of enemy avoidance. Looking only at the aggro side of the equation, the Expertise differences clearly outweigh the DPS differences, regardless of weapon speed.


So it all comes down to how you want to prioritize things. My personal feeling is that the improved Expertise from Mallet of the Tides is a more useful stat for tanking than the improved mitigation and avoidance from the other weapons. I feel that way not so much because I need more threat output over-all, but because I think that Expertise has some very good impact for removing the chance of unlucky super-low threat output at the start of a fight (back and forth avoided hit trades between you and the enemy.)


After thinking about this more and writing the above, I'm now considering switching up to The Unbreakable Will from Mallet of the Tides for boss fights, and putting a threat enchant on my Mallet. Since you can switch weapons mid-fight, I can always use the Mallet for the initial aggro-touchy moments (or for the whole fight when there's lots of aggro clearing going on: Hi, Supremus!) and then switch to The Unbreakable Will once things have settled into a groove.

I don't think I'd ever choose to use The Brutalizer over either of the other two weapons as a human, though. If I didn't have either Mallet of the Tides or The Unbreakable Will, sure, I'd consider it. But with both? It's a no-brainer.

For Orcs, the no-brainer is even bigger. Get The Brutalizer. Love it, stroke it, and keep it with you in bed at night.

Hypatia
03-29-2008, 02:13 PM
Oh, hey. You mentioned Cleaver of the Unforgiving, which I completely ignored. I am looking at it now and will update talking about it momentarily.

Cleaver of the Unforgiving (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33476):

110-205 weapon damage range ~= 157.5/hit
31 stamina ~= 356.5 hp (BoK, Vitality)
20 parry rating ~= 0.89% avoidance
0 expertise rating ~= 5 expertise = 2.50% dodge+parry removal (orc)
12 hit rating ~= 0.76% miss removal

The weapon also has a yellow socket with a +3 stamina socket bonus. We'll address that after the base weapon comparison:

Mallet of the Tides vs Cleaver of the Unforgiving:

-1.6 weapon DPS
+7.0 weapon damage per Devastate
+34.5 hp
-0.08% avoidance
+0.27% block
+3.55 expertise (1.77% dodge+parry removal)
+8.55 expertise (4.28% dodge+parry removal) (human)
-1.45 expertise (-0.73% dodge+parry removal) (orc)
-0.76% miss removal

Overall dodge+parry+miss removal:
+1.00% dodge+parry+miss removal
+3.52% dodge+parry+miss removal (human)
-2.21% dodge+parry+miss removal (orc)

This weapon is slightly lower weight-class than any of the three others we've looked at so far... until you count that gem slot. With the gem slot, you've got some great alternatives. I'd say that if you're going for hit chances, you should use the Mallet, so look at gemming for either stamina or defense rating—probably stamina.

I'd personally gem for stamina and only consider using this weapon in a fight where high burst damage is a great danger—especially high burst magic damage. But it's still a good all-around weapon, with a lot of ability for customization. For orcs, I'd say this weapon is the Mallet of the Tides compared to The Brutalizer.

Taelas
03-29-2008, 02:24 PM
You're neglecting the speed difference between Mallet of the Tides and The Unbreakable Will, which is significant w/regards to Heroic Strikes. I consider the increased DPS, combined with the Defense rating, the armor and the speed difference, to off-set the small loss in damage range and Expertise.

Hypatia
03-29-2008, 02:33 PM
Mmm. I noted the speed difference, although yes, I ignored the impact on Heroic Strike. To be honest, I think the Expertise gains far outweigh the speed differences. Maybe if you can ride Heroic Strike for the entire fight, sure—but even with Improved Heroic Strike, I generally have to be careful about when I use it to avoid running myself dry. The number of times I could afford to HS in a given fight wouldn't change at all with a weapon that's 0.1s (6.25%) faster.

Taelas
03-29-2008, 02:51 PM
The difference in threat is marginal enough to make it a non-factor on most fights -- whereas the armor/defense isn't. On threat sensitive fights, I'd use the Mallet; on all others, the Unbreakable Will.

ttocs
04-01-2008, 07:34 AM
Heh, I've posted this very same question a couple months ago.

When farming Hyjal/BT, I use the mallet on every fight, except Archimonde and Shahraz.

I use UW for progression fights in sunwell as well.

Driggan
04-02-2008, 03:46 PM
What about after hitting the expertise dodge cap? Wouldn't that make the extra expertise from Mallet less important?

byechee
04-02-2008, 04:10 PM
What about after hitting the expertise dodge cap? Wouldn't that make the extra expertise from Mallet less important?

it would still make the expertise at least as important as hit, and still much more important on fights where bosses get parry hasted swings

Hypatia
04-02-2008, 05:01 PM
I actually switched back from The Unbreakable Will to Mallet of the Tides on Archimonde the other day (our first kill! Finally!) because it was the safest slot for me to switch for more Expertise, and I'd had a couple of unlucky streaks of parry haste. Ow.

I'll see what fights it feels better or worse on.

Aelvain
04-03-2008, 12:49 AM
The difference in threat is marginal enough to make it a non-factor on most fights -- whereas the armor/defense isn't. On threat sensitive fights, I'd use the Mallet; on all others, the Unbreakable Will.

It's 308 armor and 5 defense rating right? That's pretty marginal too...

Tizack
04-03-2008, 03:27 AM
14 expertise rating on the mallet is = 3 1/2 Expertise. which rounds down to 3. u gain 5 from using a sword(human racial) so u gain everything from the sword. 300 more armor and 5 more defense. along with a higher DPS weapon. so overall for u the sword is a much better choice on any fight its a straight upgrade.

Arrivan
04-03-2008, 03:40 AM
14 expertise rating on the mallet is = 3 1/2 Expertise. which rounds down to 3. u gain 5 from using a sword(human racial) so u gain everything from the sword. 300 more armor and 5 more defense. along with a higher DPS weapon. so overall for u the sword is a much better choice on any fight its a straight upgrade.

Keep in mind humans get the expertise bonus for using swords and maces, so the Mallet still has ~3.5 expertise on the sword. Just nitpicking :)

Taelas
04-03-2008, 06:26 AM
It's 308 armor and 5 defense rating right? That's pretty marginal too...

308 armor on a weapon is rock-solid. But yeah, the Defense rating is pretty marginal.

Sunderhorn
04-03-2008, 02:51 PM
This talk of mitigation and threat and whatnot is good and all, but I've yet to see anyone mention the most important aspect of a weapon when comparing it to others:

How cool does it look on your character?

Hypatia
04-03-2008, 04:49 PM
Tough tough call there. The Unbreakable Will is pretty boring looking, really. But... Mallet of the Tides is very reminiscent of green poop on a stick.

My favorite tanking weapon ever is Widow's Remorse (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22806). Not overblown. Understated. Sexy. A fine, fine tanking weapon.

I really hope they re-use the model in WotLK. :)

Tizack
04-04-2008, 01:50 AM
Keep in mind humans get the expertise bonus for using swords and maces, so the Mallet still has ~3.5 expertise on the sword. Just nitpicking :)

oh. wow i didn't know that...humans are OP omg!!!! i play horde so i am not up on all the ally racials.

Jericho
04-10-2008, 03:42 PM
What it comes down to is this ...

No human should be using the The Brutalizer. There is just simply no good reason to do so.

All non human's SHOULD be using The Brutalizer. The Unbreakable Will simply holds nothing worth wild over the Mallet of Tides for them.

Human's however, have the option to use both UW and Mallet and do so situationally. I use both these days... although I have gone back to the Mallet in a lot of fights because quite frankly, its the easier way to raise your TPS. Fights like Gurtogg and Teron I use the mace exclusively. They do hit hard, but its the easiest way to raise TPS while removing as little mitigation/avoidance as possible. On fights like Mother Shahraz and Azgalor... its Mallet until a comfortable threat lead is obtained and then its UW for avoidance and mitigation. The reduction in overall incoming damage is worth taking the expertise hit, especially against neoMother who can not long parry gib you.

Because of the situational use Mallet of Tides for TPS driven fights and The Unbreakable Will for progression and mitigation fights, the next question is.. "Is there any use for any other weapons out there?"

We all know Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade is out there off Kalecgos, is this worth an upgrade over the Mallet? Has stamina and expertise ... but ... How about Swiftsteel Bludgeon? I currently use this weapon exclusively for trash clearing and heroics. How do these both look in terms of pure tanking weapons?

Wog
04-14-2008, 12:19 PM
Even if you are a human, wouldn't The Unbreakable Will be only slightly better than The Brutalizer? Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the only thing going for TUW would be 308 armor. With the diminishing returns of armor and the level of content we are talking about, again..wouldn't it be only slightly better?

Maybe even so small of a difference it doesn't really matter, since in terms of expertise on a weapon TUW for a human and The Brutalizer in general are equivalent?

Ziraji
04-14-2008, 12:39 PM
Enchant executioner on mallet and use it for tps.
Enchant mongoose on unbreakable and use it for bosses that hit hard.

Harkor
04-14-2008, 09:38 PM
Even if you are a human, wouldn't The Unbreakable Will be only slightly better than The Brutalizer? Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that the only thing going for TUW would be 308 armor. With the diminishing returns of armor and the level of content we are talking about, again..wouldn't it be only slightly better?

Maybe even so small of a difference it doesn't really matter, since in terms of expertise on a weapon TUW for a human and The Brutalizer in general are equivalent?

It is a very slight difference, but the world of tanking is a game of stacking up as many slight differences in your favor as you possibly can.

mcfuzz
04-19-2008, 05:17 AM
because i cant be sure what has already been said, ill keep my points breif.

Unbreakable will is the best weapon for a human warrior.

1.Yes, expertise is great, but there are PLENTY of outlets for getting youre expertise to 23, or even 44.

2. 308 armor and 7 defense are good things. especially if you go for expertise on neck, bracers, belt, (and you should) you want to keep your non-dying all the time stats up.

3. the higher damage AND the weapon speed with will make it a better choice for threat. the minor difference in devastate is much less important than the far beter returns you will be getting from heroic strike in threat and rage. you get more rage from white hits with will too, maximizing overall threat.


EDIT

i saw someone say, "diminishing returns on armor"

yes, there are diminishing returns on armor, but it is not at all what you think. The Protection Warrior Guide - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior_guide/) check out the graphs midway down the first post.

armor works out to be somewhat less valuable than perhaps its cost in terms of item level. but only slightly. and the fact remains that you dont really have an option when talking about effective health. there are only the 2 stats, stamina, and armor. and as the armor modifies teh stamina, it is ineffective to just stack stamina. the more you get, the more valuable the armor becomes.

now, to really analyze this gear we need to go into specifics and different tanking styles.

one could argue that block value contributes to effective health, but this is only the case if you have unrcrushability, 102.4 natural avoidance. IF you have uncrushability,(i do) then the Will is much better anyway as 7 defense contributes to that and alows for more itemization of the rest of your gear.

if you do not, stamina and armor are youre only options. Having the armor here, which you all seem to be throwing away entirely, is essentially free given the tiem level differences in the weapons. the speed and damage increase make up for the threat loss in expertise. additionally, the armor allows you to itemize for expertise with the rest of your gear at the cost of say, some stamina.

AND ANOTHER THING!~ too many people waste enchant slots on stamina. it is the lowest item value you can get. 1.5 stamina=1 defense. get the defense on your chest, cloack, bracers, and the effective health(staminaXarmor) on youre weapon(unbreakable will) and you VASTLY inscrease youre overall item level!

AND ANOTHER THING! cleaver is in no way comparable for a human. 5 expertise skill from the ratial translates to a buttload of expertise rating. PLUS the armor which the cleaver has dick all of.



double edit

BOTTOM LINE

there is no reason to relegate a single gear slot, (weapon) to support a single aspect of tank functions. having higher overall value and some crossover, (from threat to survivability) nto only improves youre overall performance, but allows you to further customize youre gear to get the best of both worlds.


and besides, the will hits harder and is faster which anyone will tell you is the best for threat and overall for tanking. why do you think the dragonblade in sunwell is 1.5 speed with haste?

Hypatia
04-19-2008, 09:24 PM
because i cant be sure what has already been said, ill keep my points breif.

If you can't be bothered to read a thread that only has 26 posts in it, I'm not sure why we should bother to read your post.


there is no reason to relegate a single gear slot, (weapon) to support a single aspect of tank functions. having higher overall value and some crossover, (from threat to survivability) nto only improves youre overall performance, but allows you to further customize youre gear to get the best of both worlds.

On the other hand, weapons generally provide smaller amounts of avoidance and mitigation than other slots do. The analyses of various weapons earlier in this thread do in fact take into account all of the stats of the weapons, including DPS, avoidance, and mitigation.

Nobody is going to suggest that a warrior choose any item without looking at the overall effect on their performance.

That said, switching from The Unbreakable Will to Mallet of the Tides is one of the first things I do when I slap on my avoidance set and then say "Okay, I need to trade a bit of avoidance for expertise on this boss." Why? Because it's a trade that I know will give me a significant gain in expertise without losing much else.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the other points in your post, except to ask you to please actually read what you're replying to before replying, to read and understand other discussions on the site to know the context before replying, and to for God's sake not post screeds about unrelated topics as addenda to your main post.

Thanks.

Dof
04-21-2008, 03:01 AM
Just noticing something. On The Brutalizer, it has more then 5 expertise. 5.33 to be exact. Which makes up for the loss of the racial.

I imagine, the 308 armor is better then 1 defense rating though?

Kazeyonoma
04-21-2008, 09:52 AM
rating's unless converted to the next highest whole number are always lopped off for rating -> skill conversions.

so unless you've got a floating .67 expertise from other pieces of gear to make this 5.33 into 6, you'll only get 5 expertise from it.

There is no. 5.33 expertise skill. its 5, or its 6.

duvar
04-23-2008, 09:20 AM
Regardless of race, Brutalizer is better than Mallet of the Tides on fights with unlimited rage imo. This is because it's faster, so you can get much more heroic strike spam over the course of a long fight. Dragonscale-Encrusted Long Blade is obviously superior to everything as a threat weapon.

Unbreakable Will shouldn't be compared to any of the weapons mentioned in this thread for the purposes of threat, because it is last on the list, inferior to everything for threat. But it is -the- best mitigation weapon hands down, in part because of the armor and increased defense, and in part because you can enchant it with Mongoose while your main threat weapon is Enchanted with Executioner. The only exception to this might be if you have -both- Dragonscale Encrusted Longblade and Brutalizer, in which case you can enchant your Brutalizer with Mongoose and use it for your Mitigation weapon.

Hypatia
04-23-2008, 10:58 AM
Regardless of race, Brutalizer is better than Mallet of the Tides on fights with unlimited rage imo. This is because it's faster, so you can get much more heroic strike spam over the course of a long fight

I'm really not convinced about this, at least with these weapon speeds. The difference between 1.7 and 1.6 weapons on a ten minute fight is only 23 attacks. Or, to look at it another way, you get one extra attack with the 1.6 weapon for every 16 attacks with the 1.7 weapon.

That's 6.25% more heroic strikes (assuming you can HS on every single attack). Are you really convinced that this is so much better than having all of your attacks hit 1.81% more of the time?

Edit: The one heroic strike you get every 27.2 seconds will add ~425 threat (assuming 10% crit rate and 100% chance to hit), for a total of 15.6 extra threat per second. So I suppose by the numbers, if you do less than 862tps and can ride HS like a bucking bronco, you should make that choice. (Not accounting for the other ways the axe could boost your threat.)

duvar
04-23-2008, 12:08 PM
Well first of all I'm not sure where you're getting 1.81% more hits from.

Mallet - 3.6 Expertise (-.9% dodge/parry)
Brutalizer - 5.3 Expertise (-1.325% dodge/parry)
Mallet + Racial - 8.6 Expertise (-2.15% dodge/parry)

So the difference between Brutalizer and Mallet+Racial is 0.825% dodge/parry.

I'm going to make the assumption that you're already over the soft cap, because let's be honest, in a threat set who isn't? Brooch of Deftness+Defiance puts you over halfway to the soft cap anyway, It only really takes one or two more pieces of gera to reach it. Between Bracers of The Ancient Phalanx, Shard of Contempt, Sunguard Legplates, Girdle of the Fearless, it's very unlikely you'll be under the soft cap, ESPECIALLY considering that since we're comparing Brutalizer, you obviously have access to BT gear.

So, all that being said, Mallet is only an additional 0.825% chance to hit. Which happens once out of every 121 attacks. Assuming an average boss fight of 5 minutes (reasonable if it's the kind of fight where you're literally just sitting there spamming threat moves over and over with no running around), and an attack speed of 1.7 that's 176 attacks over the course of a fight, so 1.5 extra attacks would have hit. Maybe 50% of your attacks were something other than an auto-attack / heroic strike, so that's 88. With a 1/121 chance for that extra hit chance to come into play, and somewhere around 250 attacks, you're looking at maybe 1,000-1,500 extra threat over the entire course of a 5 minute fight, which works out to about 5 threat per second.

Autoattacks do more DPS with Brutalizer, and devastate is 339.5 with Mallet compared to 335.5 with Brutalizer. The top end damage might look considerably higher on Mallet, but the average is what counts. And the average is really close. Plus you get more heroic strikes. On a good fight I'd say it's possible to heroic strike 2/3 of attacks, so that's over 10 additional heroic strikes on the hypothetical 5 minute fight I described above.

Ruminator
04-23-2008, 12:36 PM
(sorry for the qualitative info here, since this is mostly a quantitative thread:)

(I'm a tauren warrior) I recently got the Mallet, and was previously using the Cleaver. I was already over the soft expertise cap when I got it. I have to say, I'm really liking the Mallet for the stuff I'm tanking. TPS seems slightly higher overall to me. For some reason, I seem able to HS more reliably every swing on "endless rage" fights; it's like the timing of 1.7 lines up better with my rage than 1.6 or 1.5 does. Maybe there's a mathmatical reason behind (the incoming hits are just as frequent, but the swing timer is slightly slower, resulting in a tiny bit more time to "save up" rage before the next HS or something).

I'm liking the mallet so far! If I wind up with a UW that nobody wants, I'll have to try it out and see how it compares.

Hypatia
04-23-2008, 02:40 PM
Well first of all I'm not sure where you're getting 1.81% more hits from.

Sorry about that—1.61%, I mistyped and then followed it up by using my typo. And as you note, if you are in a threat set, you're probably only getting half of that.