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View Full Version : 2.4 Flurry charge usage - DW improvements?



GarrettJaxx
03-27-2008, 05:57 AM
With my mods not yet fully updated (heck, even partially updated lol:p) I haven't been able to check if my dps has been decisively impacted by the patch. The notes say that Flurry now properly recharges when a crit is scored with one charge left.

I'm wondering, is this what had, for a time this past patch, driven us to stack crit like mad in favor of mid-high levels of hit?

I had 150 hit and 30% crit unbuffed, for instance, favoring crit to keep flurry up as often as possible. Now, with the WW dual-crit activation and with the 'fix' to flurry's last charge I note above, has anything changed, I wonder?:rolleyes:

Perhaps 180 hit and 28% crit now becomes more viable/preferred? Or is good old crit, proccing flurry and doubling damage, always the winner when it comes to stack-balancing these two stats? Very interested in your thoughts, dual-wielders.

ebs2002
03-27-2008, 09:54 AM
I'm not a fury warrior, but I've done a fair bit of reading about it. I was also of the impression that more crit makes it easier to keep Rampage up in addition to keeping Flurry up. What's the rampage up-time at 30% crit versus 28% crit?

fastidius
03-27-2008, 01:25 PM
Yeah all the flurry bugs look fixed therefore stracking to much crit will now be wasted. Go back to your 28% crit and up your Hit again.

If you are at 28% you should be able to keep flurry up and rampage up unless you don't get to use whirlwind. It's always dependant on the RNG but basically you get...MH/OH white hits, BT,WW,HS which can all crit and whirlwind now does it on both hands so basically you should be perma hasted or close to it..

I went up in DPS after patch and i am Kara/Badge gear.

GarrettJaxx
03-27-2008, 07:13 PM
Yeah all the flurry bugs look fixed therefore stracking to much crit will now be wasted. Go back to your 28% crit and up your Hit again.

If you are at 28% you should be able to keep flurry up and rampage up unless you don't get to use whirlwind. It's always dependant on the RNG but basically you get...MH/OH white hits, BT,WW,HS which can all crit and whirlwind now does it on both hands so basically you should be perma hasted or close to it..

I went up in DPS after patch and i am Kara/Badge gear.

Thanks for the reply. I've so far been running with 188 hit and about 28.6% hit and so far, with WW (ya I have 1/2 Imp WW and it's bread and butter in my rotation) I've been keeping flurry and Rampage up consistently.

I do miss my Rampage Reminder!

Regardless, I'll still probably check this against a 30% crit and 153 hit gear-setup I have just for fun, to see if there's much of a diff. Interested if anyone else is noting the above as well.

GarrettJaxx
03-29-2008, 08:19 AM
Hi - update here ... ... it seems that a number of warrs on the forums for WoW and others in my guild disagree about the hit/crit issue. They all still feel more crit is key, and 153 hit is just fine. I know I have my own performance to consider, and whatnot, and make a decision, but it's an interesting issue -- anyone else on these forums have an idea about this?

Corbusier
04-01-2008, 01:45 PM
People didn't stack crit because flurry was bugged.

fastidius
04-01-2008, 03:14 PM
it does depend on which tier gear your in...

T4 and lower stacked crit because the had less flurry time at 25-28% crit.

Higher end then yeah Crit will start to be better than Strength because your working with bigger numbers. Strength is a linear stat, Crit is more of a exponential.

Kazeyonoma
04-01-2008, 04:23 PM
nuuuu.

After you reach a certain crit minimum, and you've already reached the special hit cap (9%), Str will continue to be your highest scaling stat you can gain. Increasing crit with the new fix is wasted as now you can continually crit and keep flurry up with lower crit %. Lets do some quick math:

You get 5 charges of flurry. and any crit inbetween them from specials or from a white hit will refresh this back to 5. Prior it was only 4 charges technically because of the bug.

with 28% chance to crit. in order to not crit a single time assuming only white hits (i know this is flawed but lets keep it simple). In order to not crit a single time for 4 swings at 28% crit was .72*.72*.72*.72 = 26.9% chance of happening. With the fix to flurry, this drops to 19.3%. This is a way oversimplification but you can see that this fix reduces the need to crit by a good %. This % goes way down when you include instant attacks (yellows).

There are several guides by several very intelligent and smart warriors (that means not me cuz I r Dumb) that point out str as the biggest dps increasing stat in the game once you reach hit and expertise minimums.

fastidius
04-01-2008, 08:26 PM
Maybe i'm confusing the argument but heres what i think they are talking about...


Hit of anything around 150 is fine.

AP > crit for normal attacks and HS

Crit > AP for BT as its only 45% of AP

Crit > AP for Whirlwind as both hands check against it.........speculation not completly sure about this but i think it's the crux of the crit/ap argument 2.3 onwards.

so if your damage table is starting to look like

Melee/HS 50%
WW/BT 50%

then you may find Crit > AP

Corbusier
04-01-2008, 09:14 PM
Maybe i'm confusing the argument but heres what i think they are talking about...


Hit of anything around 150 is fine.

AP > crit for normal attacks and HS

Crit > AP for BT as its only 45% of AP

Crit > AP for Whirlwind as both hands check against it.........speculation not completly sure about this but i think it's the crux of the crit/ap argument 2.3 onwards.

so if your damage table is starting to look like

Melee/HS 50%
WW/BT 50%

then you may find Crit > AP
I can't even tell what you think the argument is about. Your conclusions are all wrong, too.

fastidius
04-02-2008, 05:09 AM
fair enough, i may be looking at things the wrong way. I'm just trying to figure out how crit could be better than AP after being told about it on other forums and also this thread coming up prompted a thought about it.

If i'm wrong thats perfectly fine i'm just trying to figure out if there is any merit to the idea. and i can only see it possible if its the specials gaining more from crit than AP at some point, 2.3 brought the flurry bug in and now that it's gone the question is is crit still worth stacking over AP at any point.

Corbusier
04-02-2008, 08:11 AM
fair enough, i may be looking at things the wrong way. I'm just trying to figure out how crit could be better than AP after being told about it on other forums and also this thread coming up prompted a thought about it.

If i'm wrong thats perfectly fine i'm just trying to figure out if there is any merit to the idea. and i can only see it possible if its the specials gaining more from crit than AP at some point, 2.3 brought the flurry bug in and now that it's gone the question is is crit still worth stacking over AP at any point.

Most spreadsheets I've used show crit surpassing STR somewhere between 3600 and 4000ap raid buffed.

Kazeyonoma
04-02-2008, 09:49 AM
but at 3600 and 4000ap raid buffed, I think ArP further surpasses even Crit. so:

Hit/expertise to minimums = #1 priority, after that they drop way low, anything over 9% hit and 5.6% dodge reduction is wasted. That INCLUDES having TALENTS. so 6% with 3/3 precisions and 3.6% after weapon mastery!

Crit to 28-30% I've seen this debated but basically you need a base amount of crit to keep flurry going nearly 100% of the time.

STR. that's it, once you reach those minimums, stack STR and attack power as much as possible because STR is the base for all your damage, your white hits, your yellows, even your crits, are all based on your base damage, which is based on your str/ap. THIS is why STR outplays crit, because at a certain point, crit no longer provides you as much benefit, you want crit to keep flurry up. not to put out more damage, the crits you get will help but it will lead to spiky threat as well. you're much better off stacking STR/AP as it helps you streamline every hit, to hit harder. Not reliant on some random roll of your crit %.

AFTER you reach very high AP minimums (I'm not sure about this so don't quote me but this is what I've read somewhere). ArP begins to help more than AP because your gains in AP yield smaller and smaller % gains of damage, where as ArP begins to stack upon itself when reducing armor. What is the minimum? Who knows, but the more ArP you get, the more and more powerful it gets.

Corbusier
04-02-2008, 10:35 AM
You can never have flurry up 100% of the time unless you somehow had 100% crit, it's just not mathematically possible.

Kazeyonoma
04-02-2008, 10:51 AM
well, that's why i said Nearly, I know I know, its an oversimplification, but essentially you want it up most of the time. (read over 80% of the time)

GarrettJaxx
04-02-2008, 11:32 AM
... str as the biggest dps increasing stat in the game once you reach hit and expertise minimums...

This ... is what I took from our discussion, and I believe for me it's the most significant route to upgrading dps with my current gear.

Frederic
04-22-2008, 03:46 PM
Crit > AP for BT as its only 45% of AP

Approximately 24% of your AP is used in the damage calculations for normalized special attacks (Mortal Strike, Whirlwind, Overpower). Comparatively speaking Bloodthirst offers the best scaling to AP for a warrior. Which is why some warriors consider 2-hander fury specs if there is already a Blood Frenzy specced warrior in raids with them normally, especially since Slam scales with AP slightly better than normalized attacks as well, unless the weapon speed is under 3.3 (uncommon for a decent 2-hander).