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DapperDan
03-19-2008, 12:06 AM
Obviously a pally tank is ideal for the hatchlings, but we don't have one :( Any advice on this fight with 2 warrior tanks? I'm worried about our hatchling tank losing aggro and the AoEers getting owned.

Shortypop
03-19-2008, 01:48 AM
Gear one out with lichen shield guard, felsteel spike, vengeance card and high block value. What we found worked well was to let a dps warrior/rogue follow the one hatcher kill it immediately after one egg and solo kill that one hatcher. On the other side, someone else is tasked with killing the hatcher after 3 or 4 eggs. stand on the main platform by the bridge, thrunderclap as the adds appear, ask for a slowing trap if possible and frost novas. As long as you hold agro for a decent length of time it work's ok - can be kinda messy.

Most important is for everyone to spread out, as you dont want squishies with fire de-buff getting hit by the bosses' fire thing. Even if a mage pulls agro off all the hatchers currently up, they won't kill him the fire debuff will.

We also tried a holy pally tanking, it worked well except it meant that we were low on healers, but I know people who use this strategy.

AlmtyBob
03-19-2008, 02:12 AM
It's definitely a much harder fight without a Pally tank. I've done it without one twice on our ZA main team (I was tanking Jan'alai). It doesn't change a whole lot with a Warrior tanking adds but you have to accept the fact that he will lose aggro on some of the adds. A couple of suggestions:

-This is MUCH easier with strong DPS, particularly ranged.

-Kill one hatcher right away. When you see where the other is going, have your healers move to the other side with the exception of a pally healer who will stay to heal add damage and remove the debuff. If possible, put him near a melee player who can save kill any stray birds heading to him. Make sure if you do that the healer isn't directly behind the melee because of the flame breath.

-Don't let people blow a battle res or soulstone until after the second batch of eggs is up and you know they're under control. Bad luck on the first or second batch spells disaster.

-Frost Trap. Beware, however, this make it a pain to see the fire bombs.

-The add tank needs to tclap, cleave, demo, etc the first 3. Should have just enough time to beat any potential healer threat on them. Further adds are a pain since you're limited to shout threat and desperate tab targeting.

-There's 48 eggs. You'll basically have your choice between 6, 10, or 15 adds with each hatch. IIRC our attempt let the hatcher open 15 the first time with a challenging shout, 9 the next time (only 9 left after 15), then 10, 6, and then the remaining 8 at 35%. If you feel you're going to have a hard time killing enough before he pops them at 35%, do a test run where you let him strike the eggs 5 times. That's 15 adds. Add tank can pop challenging shout (kinda iffy but nice for buying time) and have every dps burn them down. The MT should fine grabbing a 3-4 birds that melee can then burn as long as the MT has the debuffed removed quickly. On the one hand this is a pain in the ass method since it's somewhat of a crapshoot, especially if you're melee heavy and people stack up and/or you get hit with a bomb phase. On the other hand, your healers will be the first to tell you when it's not working and you can reset the encounter and try again with only a death or two. The main thing is just finding out how many eggs you can open the first time with all dps on them and then each subsequent time with just the designated 2-3 DPSers.

-If you're leading the raid have someone else you trust lead that battle. It can be a pain to micromanage particularly after the soft enrage.

fathoof
03-19-2008, 03:23 AM
I am affraid this fight is more about power of your aoe dps than tanking. My job is usually dragonhawk "tanking". I work here as an improved stoneclaw totem.

I attract first cca 8 dragonhawks. Then the hatcher is killed. Locks seed on them and mage blow them up. I just concentrate mobs on 1 spot for better aoe dps.

P.S.: Thanks a lot for this website. It is definetely stuff I had looked for since I made my warrior :)

P.S.S.: I apologize for way I write english. Gotta find some Englishspot.com xD

Cayleb
03-19-2008, 04:15 AM
We've done this several times with myself taking care of the dragonhawks as a warrior. It started out as prot and continued as I went fury(and prot again, for that matter). It will be extremely difficult for you to keep aggro on them throughout the AoE that usually burns them down. We typically have a shaman and/or hunter in the raid, we'll have a DPSer follow the hatcher I'm not on, let him release one egg, kill him and the egg solo. Mine we'll let hatch around 6-10 adds, shaman will typically have an earthbind at the edge of the bridge and hunter with frost trap. Use whatever single target things you can/cleave in the beginning for the first couple waves, then TC/demo. Once they were all out and one me, a mage will generally nova them in place and give me a couple extra seconds to generate threat before they start AoEing/locks start SoCing.

The best benefit that I had myself was that my OT prot and fury builds alike incorporated piercing howl. This is one of the boss fights that a little utility skill like that can really, really shine in. It's made the fight immensely easier than times when I did not have PH available. Aside from that, it's really in the hands of your DPSers, namely the AoE. Run around, taunt, try to keep them close and then trust your healers to keep your DPSers up through what you can't pull off them until the chickenhawks die. We found a group with two warlocks and a mage, or two mages and a warlock typically makes short work of them.

DapperDan
03-19-2008, 05:03 AM
Thanks for the help all :)

njalil
03-19-2008, 05:35 AM
Another thing you might want to try is o get your pally healer if you have 1 to get into the 100 badge FR set and hold the adds with consecration, holy shield and healing agro. Personally we roll with a prot pally becuase it makes this encounter and much of the timed run very simple. That said, I'm sure if you have a pally healer (pref with some prot peices or Arena pieces along with FR) would help too.

If the above case doesn't work for you, remember that slowing effects like freezing trap (mentioned above) and Earthbind totem are an immense help. Try AoE from range so no Arcane Expl I guess. Locks would help with seeds and get the mage (if you have one) to frost nova the adds in place to buy that extra second. I don't think there's much you can do as a warrior cept fo popping challenging appropriately on the second round of adds.

Athifos
03-19-2008, 07:05 AM
My guild rarely has a prot pally available so what we do is have everyone except the MT, his healer, and one rogue stand on the platform with the eggs. The rogue kills one hatcher and we let the other hatcher hatch all of the eggs on one side. Jan'alai will teleport everyone in two times, then we do the same on the other side of eggs (leaving both hatchers up for faster hatching). The only thing about this is that you need good healers to keep your aoe up. Use frost traps/earthbind if you have them, and never use Frost Nova. Roots are awful for this fight as they will attack the only target in range, almost always ending up being a healer somehow.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
03-21-2008, 01:29 AM
Killed him several times with Feral, Warrior, or Pally OT. A Paladin is definitely the best choice, but it's still doable with the other tanks.
Your raid must wait a few seconds for the OT to build some AoE aggro (thunderclap, demo shout etc) and then help him with forst traps, ice nova ....everything that can slow down or immobilize the hatchlings, it will help the OT. Once minimal aggro is done, and once the hatchlings are slowed, then you can AoE them. He will usually loose aggro on some mobs but the most part will focus on him (we kill one troll and let the other break 4 eggs).

Aughban
04-06-2008, 06:44 AM
My guild doesn't have a prot paladin avaliable so when we do ZA its either feral druid + warrior or 2xWarrior, im our case we had an avoidance geared tank (myself) tanking the boss and the second warrior would tank the eggs. We had quite strong dps on the eggs but a few alts too so it evens out to your average groups. The thing to remember about this fight is not to worry about the enrage timer of 5 mins, i tanked it fine even with a healer dead, nightmare seeds/healthstones share the same CD so you'll need pots as well. We managed to let 2/3 of the eggs down on the first hatcher (1 side) and had the other warrior gain agro (had a challenging shout ready just incase) and aoe'd them down.

Our set up was the following (exluding 2 tanks):

Priest - Healer
Shaman - Healer
Druid - Healer
2x Mage - Both full fire
1x Lock - Full S1 alt.
2x Rogue

I don't remember how many hatchers it took but he had engraged by the time we came to kill him. The key to this fight i have found is to have DPS that understand they can't hammer there buttons straight away.

Augh

kawika
04-07-2008, 05:36 PM
I never thought about using petrified lichen guard...and that's a good suggestion.

I've attempted the boss twice. First time we had a druid trying to OT the adds...second time i did. The suggestions above are part of what i had planned out. Their primary attack seems to be their flame breath ability. They can do some melee, but it's fairly negligable. Given that...i went with using a Fire resist set (using the flamebane crafted set) and seemed to mitigate a lot of damage.

I havent got a chance to do an attempt on jan'alai since we last did it....but here's what i plan to have when we do...lets call it a:

Item list for non-pally AoE tanking =P
petrified lichen guard
felsteel shield spike
darkmoon card: vengeance
stormchops (i think this will stack with druid thorns)
crystal spire (doesn't stack with druid thorns)
ez-thro dynamite II or crystal charge (i think they share the same cooldown, if you're an engineer, you can use the better bombs).
oil of immolation
Ramstein's Lightning Bolts may be fun to use as well (shares cooldown with dynamite even tho it takes longer to recharge iirc).


Any others i missed? i know i didnt put up the chained essence of erranikus trink..but i think a lot of us have tossed it by now.

Myzery
04-10-2008, 05:42 PM
I'd also like to give honorable mention to stacking block rating while using the Petrified Lichen Guard/Felsteel shield spike to AOE tank. If you're dps can be REALLY patient, it can help. In this case, block rating is actually an AOE threat stat!

That trinket with 32 block rating and On Use heals when you block (sorry, no time to link it) is nice. Also, Dabri's Enigma's on use gives you about 15% block rating for 15 seconds. More blocks = more threat in this case.

brain9h
04-11-2008, 06:44 AM
as of 2.4 the encounter is much easier as Jan'Alai won't teleport the entired raid to his position, causing you to lose control of the adds. Now the balls of fire will spawn and that's it.

Aughban
04-12-2008, 10:09 AM
as of 2.4 the encounter is much easier as Jan'Alai won't teleport the entired raid to his position, causing you to lose control of the adds. Now the balls of fire will spawn and that's it.

seems to me to be less grenades as well

Morgo
04-16-2008, 11:39 PM
We never have a tank for the adds. We use one mage, one warlock and one balance druid (me) with one healer to handle the adds: one hatcher is killed right at spawn by a rogue, the other runs towards us 4 waiting on the platform. we slowly dps him so we kill him after having opened 1+2+4+8 = 15 adds. I "tank" them at first, using barksking + Hurricane, while the warlock SoCts everything. right before the first seed is about to pop, we have the mage frost nova them in place, I get the hell out of dodge, and the mage+warlock blow them away before the frost nova ends... of course, good timing is required, but once you have the timing giong well, it's by far the easiest way we have found. next hatcher opens all the remaining adds on this platform, with the second spawn being killed again. run over to the other platform, 3rd hatcher opens some eggs, rinse and repeat. by now, we usually have him down to 35% so the remaining half (or quarter, dependin how you count) of the eggs hatches, and the full raid dps goes out on them, with a shaman just spamming chain heal 24/7.

clavarnway
04-26-2008, 10:27 AM
Try AoE from range so no Arcane Expl I guess. Locks would help with seeds and get the mage (if you have one) to frost nova the adds in place to buy that extra second. I don't think there's much you can do as a warrior cept fo popping challenging appropriately on the second round of adds.

Any raiding mage should have 2 points in Arcane Subtlety - Spells - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12592) . Reduces threat from Arcane spells by 40%. If you 2 AOE classes, one of being a mage, it's very easy - just have one of the people cast ranged AOE, this will pull aggro from the birdies, then have the Mage spam Arcane Explosion in the middle of them. Mage will be hard pressed to pull aggro with those talent points assuming the other AOE'er is still AOE'ing.

(this only works with some kind of slowing (Earthbind/Frost Trap)..BUT NOT ROOTS!!!

clavarnway
04-26-2008, 10:29 AM
I'd also like to give honorable mention to stacking block rating while using the Petrified Lichen Guard/Felsteel shield spike to AOE tank. If you're dps can be REALLY patient, it can help. In this case, block rating is actually an AOE threat stat!

That trinket with 32 block rating and On Use heals when you block (sorry, no time to link it) is nice. Also, Dabri's Enigma's on use gives you about 15% block rating for 15 seconds. More blocks = more threat in this case.

Figurine of the Colossus - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27529) - Figurine of the Colossus

This trinket is actually VERY nice - you go kinda low, then pop the trinket - ask healers not to heal you during this. All the healing you do generates threat threat on all the birdies, for FREE!! :)

phaze
04-28-2008, 07:09 AM
we slowly dps him so we kill him after having opened 1+2+4+8 = 15 adds.
Minor note: the hatch rate is incremental, not exponential.
4 rounds is: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 hatched eggs, which is half of a side.

On the topic of non-Protadin tanking for Jan'alai:
We've had good success with splitting the DPS up on either side, and hatching 3 on a melee-focused side, 6 on the AE-focused side. You'll have a few eggs left over after the 4th wave of hatchers, but not enough to cause any major problems for the DPS killing them when Jan'alai reaches 35%.

brain9h
04-28-2008, 08:11 AM
Tried this weekend to just nuke the adds, worked well, no tanking.
Healers KNOW that 1 or 2 guys will take hits (the AoE'rs) and just heal them.

We didn't allow them ALL to hatch, that would be too much stress. So we did in 4 steps, breaking 10 eggs each time and killing without tanking. It stressed our healers mana but it worked. I guess with more practice that can make up easily for the lack of a pally tank.

kawika
05-01-2008, 02:48 PM
a question...if tanking the adds...does gearing in FR (250ish) seem to help or hurt more?

a couple of times i did it...it seemed to help with some of the spike damage that could come from their flame buffet (as well as mitigate the bosses own fire damage from his fire breath thingy). the flip side is that i have less HP (about 4k less HP) and less armor.

bosephus
05-03-2008, 06:40 PM
I've done this a few times as a Warrior, each time without any of the consumables or the lichen guard (which I had in my bags but forgot), except maybe Thorns. Here's a couple things to think about:

Thunderclap only hits 4 targets. When each group comes across the bridge, thunderclap and then move backwards or to the side a few steps, away from the bridge. This should herd the group away with you. When the next group of dhawks comes up, run forward and thunderclap them. Hopefully you will have gotten far forward enough so that you are not thunderclapping the previous group, but are grabbing all of the new group. Herd them backwards as well so that you have room to run forward and thunderclap the next group. When the groups get really large, demo shout first and then thunderclap to grab them all.

If you stand in the same spot, you're going to keep thunderclapping the same birds, which won't work. The important thing is just to generate enough threat so that the hawks don't beeline towards your healers. Try not to thunderclap a dragonhawk you've already debuffed.

Be careful intervening if a dragonhawk gets away from you. You'll likely pull most of the pack out of the aoe with you. Keep ranged dps on the far side of the platform, but your healers on the side where the dragonhawks are hatching. If one of the dhawks does go after a healer, you are right there to peel it off. But remember to not group up too many people or the raid will take too much damage from the fire breath. Remember to tell everybody to switch sides when the eggs are done on the first side.

Tell one of the mages to save frost nova for when the bombs go down. Freezing the dragonhawks at this time will allow everybody to move safely.

Again, you're not really tanking them here...you're protecting the healers from aggro while the dps waste the birds.

Mitosis
05-25-2008, 12:32 AM
We have done this a couple ways. Once I remember when I was the OT, but I was arms. What worked best is while the DPS killed one hatcher I would get him real low (~10%) and let him hatch 5 birds. I would kill the birds with the help from a DPS or two. That's it. Rinse and repeat until all birds are dead.

The second way is I have a force reactive disk, slap a felsteel spike on that and go to town. It works *very* well.