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TomHuxley
03-18-2008, 10:02 AM
I read with great interest Cider's open letter on fixing prot warriors in PvP. Now, to put my own bias out front, I hadn't realized that prot warriors needed fixing (in BGs, at least), as I have no issue with running flags, protecting nodes, and tanking NPCs. Of course I have a geared mage I can murder things with when I need to blow off some steam. That said, with HKs soon to have non-diminishing returns (and lots of people wanting to kill more stuff in PvP) I can see why there would be a lot of interest in a SBV solution to PvP gear.

My guess, though, is that Blizzard doesn't want to do this; not because it would overpower prot warriors in PvP (see excellent reasons given by Cider in his thread), but rather it could potentially screw with their armor progression for PvE gear. Being able to drop in high armor, high stam gear that also has lots of block value would probably mess up many of their finely tuned end game boss interactions, and would certainly encourage PvE tanks to get more gear (if only selected items) from PvP rather than raiding. Heck, look how many recently 70 tanks already start out by getting their PvP shield (cough - guilty as charged - cough!).

Several classes can already skip Kara and jump from PvP gear into later raids (it's practically necessary to have a mage with BG gear in Gruul's), so I'm spitballing here, but I think that this is actually where the resistence comes from, not from a fear of giving prot warriors 3k shield crits in BGs.

With that in mind, here is my alternate solution: instead of having a second warrior armor set, simply have a second PvP shield. Give it 950 SBV, but maybe 500 armor and no stamina.

Some of you are probably asking "what the heck?!!", but bear with me. With just a little bit of SBV stats from your normal tanking gear, you'd be right at the damage and crit numbers given by Cider (and Armstrong). Your burst damage would be very high (at least compared to current prot specs), and your armor would still be higher than any other non-tank class, but this would force you to choose either high survivability with the old PvP shield (for us flag squatters and NPC tankers) or medium survivability and higher burst damage for HK fans. Of course with a good addon you could switch several times in a BG (or arena) depending on the situation, but you would always be one or the other.

Also, this new PvP shield would not screw up PvE progression. No one (and I mean NO ONE) would use it to progress through Heroics or Kara, let alone Mt. Hyjal.

Oh yeah, there is one more place where a tank might use it, and it actually solves a separate problem. It would be an ideal shield to throw on in low-rage situations when you are tanking below your progression level. Let's face it, you'll have enough armor, HP, and avoidance to live against the trash mobs in steamvaults even without a shield, and hitting the mob for 2.5k damage will sure as heck hold them. Better, the lack of stam and avoidance stats on the shield will actually let you gain rage faster in those situations, making it a low-level agro set almost by itself (blessed bag space!).

So by creating a second PvP shield that trades mitigation for SBV I think you could provide the burst-damage prot warriors want without overpowering them, and as a side benefit ease the issue with rage and agro generation for tanks who are helping guild members through lower level instances. Also, it would be easier for Blizzard to impliment, and would have almost no chance of messing with their PvE armor progressions.

What do you all think? If this seems like a viable solution I may post it over at the official forums. As an aside, if we get ever this perhaps the shield should be circular and bronze, and be called "Vengeful Spartan's Warshield" or something similar, in honor of the movie with the most shield-bashing of all time... :p

Taelas
03-18-2008, 10:55 AM
Hm. No, I don't agree. I don't see the need for it.

Every other class in the game can substitute PvP gear for PvE gear in a bind; even warriors can do this with select pieces. There's nothing wrong with this. A full set of PvP gear would be horrible for PvE (it simply wouldn't work), but a single piece here and there to cover itemization holes (S1 shoulders, S1 shield for warriors) doesn't break the PvE game. Ciderhelm's solution doesn't change this (though it does make it more viable to do it).

And, there's the problem that you could wear your full PvE tanking gear and that second shield and deliver completely massive Shield Slams. It just wouldn't work.

TomHuxley
03-18-2008, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the feedback!


Hm. No, I don't agree. I don't see the need for it.

The "need" for it? I guess the advantage is that Blizz doesn't have to make a second PvP warrior set, since they seem loathe to do so. If they are willing to that's great, this is simply an alternate (and simpler) solution for them to impliment if they won't go for a full second set of gear (I was trying to figfure out why they don't seem to want to, but this solution works regardless of their reasons for avoiding a second suit).


And, there's the problem that you could wear your full PvE tanking gear and that second shield and deliver completely massive Shield Slams.

That's why I reduced the SBV on the hypothetical shield (instead of simply copying the strength value from the S3 gear). I guess I'd have to check T6 SBV ratings again, but I don't think you can too overpowered with this (and if you can we just tune down the SBV on the shield).

Maybe I wasn't clear, but I'm not saying there's a problem with Cider's proposal if Blizzard is willing to do it. But if they aren't this would be an easy alternative that would get us most of what is wanted in a second PvP set with a smaller impact on the rest of the game. And we'd get a nice piece for use in low-rage situations as a free bonus.

Bullwrinkle
03-18-2008, 12:27 PM
I think this might actually be a decent, idea, but it would require some serious tweaking, like.. -20% armor for something that gives you maybe 600-700 SBV, doesnt even have to be a shield, but that way, even if you stack PvE gear to get 1200-1300 SBV, your not as hardy.

brain9h
03-18-2008, 02:26 PM
I like the idea very much, simple and elegant, except...

It doesn't scale with pvp progression. The whole idea of having a PvP *set*, as opposed to a single item, is that you have to earn and spend arena points to gradually improve your gear up to maximum point where you are dressed in full pvp / arena items, and only at this point you reach your maximum burst potential.

Condensing everything in a single item breaks this basic game principle and gives everyone the burst capacity of a full-vengeful 2100 rating guy.

Radhja
03-18-2008, 03:37 PM
No single piece of armor should be able to bridge so many itemization gaps.

That being said, I love SBV, and will gladly trade some of the [horribly-scaling-at-70] Armor for it. I'll take 1200 SBV and only 10k armor over 600 SBV and 16k armor anyday.

nfw
03-18-2008, 03:37 PM
Shield slam crits while flashy, is not the way to go IMHO. We need to put the "protect" back in protection PVP.

TomHuxley
03-18-2008, 05:10 PM
I like the idea very much, simple and elegant, except...

It doesn't scale with pvp progression. The whole idea of having a PvP *set*, as opposed to a single item, is that you have to earn and spend arena points to gradually improve your gear up to maximum point where you are dressed in full pvp / arena items, and only at this point you reach your maximum burst potential.

That's a good point. I didn't really mean for their to be a single shield, but rather several stages (Spartan, Merciless Spartan, Vengeful Spartan, etc), and you would require a personal rating for the best SBV shield. Also, I don't think the shield should be cheap (in terms of honor or arena), on par with a really good weapon, maybe even 30k for S1 equivalent.

Honestly, my mage got that kind of boost from his arena staff (Especially with a good enchant on it). And if you really wanted to excell at arena, the shield would not be enough. You'd need resilience for sure, and the strength wouldn't hurt, so it's not like PvE warriors could saunter in to the top tier of PvP. Also, you pretty much have to be in later raiding stages to really push the total SBV through the roof even with the "top tier" model of SBV shield, so it's not like there's no progression, it just isn't 100% traditional.

But it's certainly a point worth considering.

TomHuxley
03-18-2008, 05:18 PM
Shield slam crits while flashy, is not the way to go IMHO. We need to put the "protect" back in protection PVP.

That's actually how I BG (and I just lose in arena :o), but I think it's fair to provide an alternative play strategy that doesn't require a respec. Also, with HKs no longer subject to diminishing honor returns in 2.4, it doesn't really seem fair to forc prot PvP to not get many (heck, healers get HKs!).

Ciderhelm
03-18-2008, 08:06 PM
I moved this to the PVP forum. The related thread is in the TA forums because it was posted as a news post. Apologies! :)

TomHuxley
03-19-2008, 07:45 AM
Thanks, my bad. :o