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View Full Version : A theory of mine. Threatpoints



pvrhye
03-18-2008, 01:06 AM
Imagine, if you will, if instead of approaching threat as some race we instead thought of it as a specific number to reach based on the mob.

As I see it, every mob has a certain amount of threatpoints. This is the amount of threat you reach before the dps naturally kills it without taking aggro. Any aggro beyond this point is totally wasted. The DPS cares about hitpoints, but the tank only cares about threatpoints. Assuming every dps holds their own weight, it's mob total hps/3. That leaves a buffer equal whatever you've got in threat reduction. Healing screws it up too.

The next step is to take this system and assign a threatpoints to each mob.

Ciderhelm
03-18-2008, 01:30 AM
I don't think you'll be able to make a consistent Threat system out of it for the reason you said -- depends on DPS holding their weight.

However, you did a great job describing the thought process I have when tanking multiple mobs. I don't think I've stayed on a mob in a multi-mob pull for more than 70% of it's life for at least two years. There's a point you reach where people won't pull -- and even if they do, it'll be so late that the mob has no chance of killing the person who pulled.

Also, with rare exception, you wouldn't need to do anything based on mobs. Just based on their total Health and Health remaining, since we can already monitor the Threat output from all players in a party. Gonna repost part of this to UI forums.

pvrhye
03-18-2008, 01:49 AM
I don't think you'll be able to make a consistent Threat system out of it for the reason you said -- depends on DPS holding their weight.

However, you did a great job describing the thought process I have when tanking multiple mobs. I don't think I've stayed on a mob in a multi-mob pull for more than 70% of it's life for at least two years. There's a point you reach where people won't pull -- and even if they do, it'll be so late that the mob has no chance of killing the person who pulled.

Also, with rare exception, you wouldn't need to do anything based on mobs. Just based on their total Health and Health remaining, since we can already monitor the Threat output from all players in a party. Gonna repost part of this to UI forums.

Could be some way to have a program weight the DPS output in the party for the system. Could also pad it out a bit. That's basically the natural way of doing it.

Ciderhelm
03-18-2008, 06:14 AM
Could be some way to have a program weight the DPS output in the party for the system. Could also pad it out a bit. That's basically the natural way of doing it.

You still wouldn't need a rating system custom tailored to every mob. You only need to know Threat being produced by players (already doable), total health of the mob (already doable), and percentage of the mob's health left (already doable). It'd be a lot more efficient than a per-mob database. :)

Taelas
03-18-2008, 06:20 AM
It's not really possible with multiple mobs, though -- it's nearly impossible to determine threat on a single mob out of multiple. Then again, same can be said for Omen. You can trust it for the first, but afterwards...

And I can't really see it being useful except when chain-pulling -- I can think of no other reason to stop building threat on single-target pulls.

Ciderhelm
03-18-2008, 06:25 AM
It's not really possible with multiple mobs, though -- it's nearly impossible to determine threat on a single mob out of multiple. Then again, same can be said for Omen. You can trust it for the first, but afterwards...

Fortunately that changes with the per-mob combat log ID.

Taelas
03-18-2008, 06:30 AM
Ooh. I haven't heard about that.

In that case, awesomesauce.

Lukazra
03-18-2008, 06:32 AM
However, you did a great job describing the thought process I have when tanking multiple mobs. I don't think I've stayed on a mob in a multi-mob pull for more than 70% of it's life for at least two years. There's a point you reach where people won't pull -- and even if they do, it'll be so late that the mob has no chance of killing the person who pulled.


Cider, I am glad you said this, I have been doing a lot of multi-mob tanking in heroics lately due to a lack of cc. I have been starting on the next mob (and changing the raid marking) when the current target's hitpoints are low and it will die in the next few seconds. This gives me enough time to build a couple k worth of threat before dps starts lighting up the next mob as well as eliminating confusion on what the next mob will be. I started doing this in response to impatient dps and it worked so well that now I do it as habit. Also, I have been starting to do it earlier and earlier as my gear gets better to build rage and trying to explore where that ideal point is. Your post validated my thinking.

Melange
03-19-2008, 01:03 PM
So who else here uses V and splits their threat based on how much damage the mobs have taken?

That's right, I assist the DPS, not the other way around. Seems to be the way they like it too.

Paqzu
03-19-2008, 02:46 PM
I do pretty much the same as Cider and Luka. After a while it gets pretty easy to assess the hplps (hit point lost per second :P) of a mob. Calculating how many seconds it will take for the mob to die and comparing it to the amount of aggro needed to overcome yours + have enough time to actually kill whoever got aggro off you becomes simple.

Once I know I have a secure amount of threat I move on to other mobs and let that one be killed. If Concussion blow is up that represents a 5 second buffer to that timer, even. But on 5 + mobs pull I usually use it on the first mob (pull first mob, concussion blow, move forward to have Thunderclap avoid that one and hit 4 more,then back to him with SS or taunt) so its kind of a "freebie" buffer :P. Never use V, i just tab quickly to browse. If I have to tank 10+ mobs I just wonder how the hell the pally tank died again!

And since I'm a control freak I don't assist people, they assist me :P. Seems to be working well so far he he.

Please pardon my english, I'm Québécois :D

Khordam
03-19-2008, 04:20 PM
I've always wondered... how can a tank insist that DPS assist him if he's multimob tanking and thus basically switching targets every so often? Obviously, the problem doesn't come up if you're clever about marking targets, but it seems it has been the general rule to "assist the tank" already way before TBC, when multimob tanking was even more of tab-targeting than it is now.
How did the DPS crew ever know what to kill?

mattdeeze
03-20-2008, 09:54 AM
I use a general rule for knowing when I can safely change targets and expect the primary target to stay on me till hes dead.

I keep an eye on omen, and if the second person's agro is 70% of mine then I can leave that target when he is at 30%. If they are 80% of my agro, then i can leave at 20%

The 110% rule for pulling agro gives them some cushion if they happen to hit consecutive crits.

That is a bit oversimplified and needs to be adjusted a bit for different situations.

Examples: All dps on your target is ranged and you have a 130% agro threshold giving you more cushion. Or you are tanking real hard hitters, and you want to be absolutely certain that no one gets one hit.

pvrhye
03-20-2008, 10:31 AM
Ahh, but Mattdeeze. You give a huge aggro cushion in your example. You seem to assume that there is only 1 dps target on the mob.

Ciderhelm
03-20-2008, 11:48 AM
I've always wondered... how can a tank insist that DPS assist him if he's multimob tanking and thus basically switching targets every so often? Obviously, the problem doesn't come up if you're clever about marking targets, but it seems it has been the general rule to "assist the tank" already way before TBC, when multimob tanking was even more of tab-targeting than it is now.
How did the DPS crew ever know what to kill?

I just had DPS assist my Main Assist, usually a Rogue. I changed marked targets to signify what I was on and left the rest up to them. Worked fine. :)

Elson
03-30-2008, 10:28 PM
So who else here uses V and splits their threat based on how much damage the mobs have taken?

That's right, I assist the DPS, not the other way around. Seems to be the way they like it too.

This is essentially what I do when doing speed runs for heroics or whatever. The first mob to die gets marked with a skull and I just watch to see who the dps starts attacking. In the case of split dps I will judge righteousness for threat on one, and hit another with mele/sor. By the time the first mob has died consecrate, holy shield and switching targets like this makes things pretty much impossible to pull off me.

In response to the OP, as far as I'm concerned what you described is the best mindset to approach multi target tanking I know of. As soon as you've reached your 'threat points' you are free to generate threat on something else :)

ebs2002
03-31-2008, 03:51 PM
In PUGs, I have to tell the dps NOT to assist off of me, but to instead follow the kill order (ie, Skull > X > Triangle > Star).

The one problem I see with the OP is that I think it would be hard to come up with a mod that tracks this because of different threat modifiers used for different abilities. What happens when Seed of Corruption goes off? What about when a mob goes into execute range (higher threat modifier than BT/Devastate/MS/etc)? What happens if one of the DPSers dies, or switches targets? Then, the remaining DPSers amount of threat needed to generate to kill the mob increases...