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Hanoumatoi
03-14-2008, 08:07 AM
Hi, I saw a while ago a post which did the math and suggested an initial rotation of Devastate, Devastate, Shield Slam, Revenge when starting a mob, in order to maximize threat.

I was wondering if someone could confirm/deny this, and also touch on why, if true, 2 Devastates is better than 3, 4, or even 5 before Shield Slamming.

Thanks

(Math answers greatly appreciated)

mattdeeze
03-14-2008, 09:04 AM
I use Dev, Dev,(somtimes a third), SS, Rev as my opening sequence. There are several reasons for this.

Firstly- By opening with devastates you are reducing the targets armor (via the sunders applied by Devastate) allowing your SS and Rev to hit for more damage, and therefore more threat.

Secondly- Devastate has a small rage cost (9 rage with talents). By using devastates first you allow your rage pool to build up so that you can fit heroic strikes into your rotation earlier in the fight.

Thirdly- By opening with devastates you are giving revenge more time to proc. There is no guarantee that you will have dodged, blocked, or parried 1.5 seconds into the fight. By moving Rev further down in your rotation you give your revenge either 4.5 or 6 seconds to proc. (depending upon whether you open with 2 or 3 Devastates)

Fourthly- SS has a higher rage cost than Devastate. By opening with SS you can potentially hit a flat spot in your rage (due to your own avoidance) early in a fight where you dont have the rage to maintain your rotation.

Matt

Gorrack
03-14-2008, 09:12 AM
Actually, I will generally try to open with a SS for the simple fact that i have a lot of really zealous melee dps. IMO devastates take too long to really ramp up threat by the time your shield slam goes off. If i rail that first mob with a shield slam, thats some nice up front threat that is on it, and it is ready for a revenge or devastate right afterwards.

This is especially helpfull if I am tanking multiple mobs, as it will allow me to get a couple devastates or a revenge on the secondary targets and allow me to come right back to the kill target just as my dps has pulled it off me, for a taunt to regain threat and just rail away on it.

I have seen too many tanks get into a lull with using only devastate and heroic strike as their main sources of threat generation.

Vene over at tankingtips (and here) posted on maximising your threat rotation a week or so ago.

In it he layed out the rotation of SS > Rev > Dev > Dev (repeat) as your best bet for max threat (provided your latency is fairly low). Obviously if you dont have revenge up, you go straight into the devastate part, and wait for it to come up. I try to time it so that when it is lit, i will wait as long as i can to make sure SS is off of cool down to hit them in succession.

njalil
03-14-2008, 09:56 AM
I've been a warrior for not too long but I frequent these forums often and you guys have some great stuff going on around here. This is my first post so I apologize if there are things that I've missed or skipped. Still learning my warrior :)

Anyhows, to the topic of the ideal initial rotation.

Begin with the 3 threat move that are used:

1 - Devastate (109/119/134/148/162/176)
2 - Sheild Slam (307)
3 - Revenge (200)

* (x.x.x) Innate threat values not modified by Def stance yet.

The thing about devastate is that it scales the damage and hence threat output of the all of your threat moves. Following Satrina's example I'll use the example of a 73 boss mob with a 7700 armor (- 520 x # of sunder applications)

Hence:

0 sunders: 39.17% reduction
1 sunder: 37.51% reduction
2 sunders: 35.77% reduction
3 sunders: 33.92% reduction
4 sunders: 31.97% reduction
5 sunders: 29.89% reduction

By examining total threat output at each level of sunder for each of your threat moves, it is possible to come up with the ideal rotation.

Since Revenge is static (does not scale with gear if I'm not mistaken) we'll start off with that:

Rev0: {[460avgdmg x (1-39.17%)]+200threat}x(1.045modifier) = 501.43 threat
Rev1: 509.37 threat
Rev2: 517.76 threat
Rev3: 526.63 threat
Rev4: 536.02 threat
Rev5: 545.99 threat

*The calculations above do not include critical hits.

Devastate will take into account your average weapon damage and shield slam will take into account your Shield block value.

At let's say 200 average weapon damage, you will hit for 50% of that with devastate add 35 per application of sunder armor.

Dev0: {[200/2 +(35X0)][1-39.17%]+[301+109threat]}x(1.045modifier) = 492.02 threat
Dev1: 527.05 threat
Dev2: 568.68 threat
Dev3: 610.75 threat
Dev4: 654.45 threat
Dev5: {[200/2 +(35X5)][1-29.89%]+[176threat]}x(1.045modifier) = 385.38 threat

The way devastate seems to work is threat increase till after the application of the 5th sunder. Then threat is constant (but lower) after the application of the 5th sunder.

Dev0 is equal to Rev0 when you have a weapon that hits for 230 (so 115 in devastate).
Dev5 is equal to Rev5 when you have a weapon that hits for 638 (so 319 in devastate).

Given a shield block value of 400:

SS0: [(400+430damage)(1-39.17%)+307threat]x[1.045modifier] = 848.46 threat
SS1: 862.79 threat
SS2: 877.93 threat
SS3: 893.93 threat
SS4: 910.88 threat
SS5: 928.87 threat

SS0 will always be better than Rev0. SS5 will always be better than Rev5.
SS will always be better than Dev at all sunder levels at 200 avg weapon dmg and 400 shield block value.

The ideal initial threat rotation, moving up to 5 sunders would be:

SS0
Dev0
Dev1
Dev2
SS3
Dev3
Dev4
Rev5
SS5
Dev5
Dev5
Rev5
SS5
and so on if rage permits.

My apologies if theres something in here that is a calculation error or if I've skipped any major assumptions. Note that crit hasn't been included. By adding the autoblocker, the sequence would remian unchanged.

Foolishness
03-31-2008, 11:03 PM
I go SS dev dev rev

i thought i read somewhere that ss beats dev, but rev doesnt beat dev until the sunders are up.

however i have been too lazy to confirm this and I could be wrong so feel free to kick my ass if i am.

by the way, since this site has been changed, i actually stayed logged in between posts, good work :D!

Edit: sorry just read the post above, i guess that confirms it for me. However i still like to throw rev in as often as possible after the first 2 devastates because im often rage starved from wearing an avoidance kit.

Leytur
04-01-2008, 05:23 AM
I have imp bloodrage so I can SS from the start. Then I will devastate only when SS or Rev isn't available. The armor reduction of dev should NOT be a determining factor of if you use it over SS or Rev or not. Threat > Armor reduction.

Of course on a boss make sure 5 are up all the time. But only AFTER getting your threat up.

njalil
04-01-2008, 09:54 AM
Then I will devastate only when SS or Rev isn't available. The armor reduction of dev should NOT be a determining factor of if you use it over SS or Rev or not. Threat > Armor reduction.

Be mindful though that if 5 sunders aren't stacked, Revenge gives you 200 threat + dmg and Devastate gives you 301 threat + dmg. If you can Revenge for more than 101 damage over your devaste (Devastate does ~ 50 dmg) then its worth using revenge. Else Devastate gives you more threat.

Ciderhelm
04-01-2008, 09:56 AM
I've been a warrior for not too long but I frequent these forums often and you guys have some great stuff going on around here. This is my first post so I apologize if there are things that I've missed or skipped. Still learning my warrior :)

Anyhows, to the topic of the ideal initial rotation.

Begin with the 3 threat move that are used:

1 - Devastate (109/119/134/148/162/176)
2 - Sheild Slam (307)
3 - Revenge (200)

* (x.x.x) Innate threat values not modified by Def stance yet.

The thing about devastate is that it scales the damage and hence threat output of the all of your threat moves. Following Satrina's example I'll use the example of a 73 boss mob with a 7700 armor (- 520 x # of sunder applications)

Hence:

0 sunders: 39.17% reduction
1 sunder: 37.51% reduction
2 sunders: 35.77% reduction
3 sunders: 33.92% reduction
4 sunders: 31.97% reduction
5 sunders: 29.89% reduction

By examining total threat output at each level of sunder for each of your threat moves, it is possible to come up with the ideal rotation.

Since Revenge is static (does not scale with gear if I'm not mistaken) we'll start off with that:

Rev0: {[460avgdmg x (1-39.17%)]+200threat}x(1.045modifier) = 501.43 threat
Rev1: 509.37 threat
Rev2: 517.76 threat
Rev3: 526.63 threat
Rev4: 536.02 threat
Rev5: 545.99 threat

*The calculations above do not include critical hits.

Devastate will take into account your average weapon damage and shield slam will take into account your Shield block value.

At let's say 200 average weapon damage, you will hit for 50% of that with devastate add 35 per application of sunder armor.

Dev0: {[200/2 +(35X0)][1-39.17%]+[301+109threat]}x(1.045modifier) = 492.02 threat
Dev1: 527.05 threat
Dev2: 568.68 threat
Dev3: 610.75 threat
Dev4: 654.45 threat
Dev5: {[200/2 +(35X5)][1-29.89%]+[176threat]}x(1.045modifier) = 385.38 threat

The way devastate seems to work is threat increase till after the application of the 5th sunder. Then threat is constant (but lower) after the application of the 5th sunder.

Dev0 is equal to Rev0 when you have a weapon that hits for 230 (so 115 in devastate).
Dev5 is equal to Rev5 when you have a weapon that hits for 638 (so 319 in devastate).

Given a shield block value of 400:

SS0: [(400+430damage)(1-39.17%)+307threat]x[1.045modifier] = 848.46 threat
SS1: 862.79 threat
SS2: 877.93 threat
SS3: 893.93 threat
SS4: 910.88 threat
SS5: 928.87 threat

SS0 will always be better than Rev0. SS5 will always be better than Rev5.
SS will always be better than Dev at all sunder levels at 200 avg weapon dmg and 400 shield block value.

The ideal initial threat rotation, moving up to 5 sunders would be:

SS0
Dev0
Dev1
Dev2
SS3
Dev3
Dev4
Rev5
SS5
Dev5
Dev5
Rev5
SS5
and so on if rage permits.

My apologies if theres something in here that is a calculation error or if I've skipped any major assumptions. Note that crit hasn't been included. By adding the autoblocker, the sequence would remian unchanged.

Great post. :)

North
04-01-2008, 10:35 AM
does not scale with gear if I'm not mistaken

True, although the old 2pc bonus on dreadnaught gave some extra damage - rightfully left out of this discussion. Nice analysis.

Ciderhelm
04-01-2008, 01:31 PM
Njalil,

The only suggestion I'd make -- not to you, but when I alter the guides for new players -- is to use Heroic/Devastate before the first Shield Slam. This is for the practical reason of virtually guaranteeing you hit your target. It assumes the player does not have Hit/Expertise maxed and has a build with the rage talents to make that combo available.

Leytur
04-01-2008, 02:30 PM
OK I am by no means a well geared tank. . . Looking at my WWS for Curator, Aran, and Prince my devastate averaged 224 and my revenge averaged 333 which is over the 101 difference that was mentioned.

So it seems that Rev > Dev still.

But I'm not a #cruncher.

kikamookow
05-09-2008, 12:31 AM
I used to SS-DEV-DEV as my starting rotation... I never really had a problem until one day I got a very low ss followed by a shite run of luck with misses and parrys .. the group I was running with was quite used to me getting the big chunk of threat. as the mob was those nasty buggers on the way to opera from maiden in kara ( you know the ones that like freezing the tanks in the ice blocks )... the result was that the squisheys dropped one by one before the OT was able to pick up the mob..

I now use dev, dev , rev ( if its up) then start on the 2,3,4,4 cycle it seems to work for me..

Dreg
05-10-2008, 03:19 AM
OK I am by no means a well geared tank. . . Looking at my WWS for Curator, Aran, and Prince my devastate averaged 224 and my revenge averaged 333 which is over the 101 difference that was mentioned.

So it seems that Rev > Dev still.

But I'm not a #cruncher.

3 fights is not really a huge pool of data to base your numbers on

Dreg
05-10-2008, 03:21 AM
OK I am by no means a well geared tank. . . Looking at my WWS for Curator, Aran, and Prince my devastate averaged 224 and my revenge averaged 333 which is over the 101 difference that was mentioned.

So it seems that Rev > Dev still.

But I'm not a #cruncher.

3 fights is not really a huge pool of data to base your numbers on

anywho, use SS, dev dev dev so on... basically getting a SS in there in the first few hits his huge, its just too much threat not too... but really it depends on what your doing...

if your pulling 2 mobs, your going to want to dev both of them and not use SS because of the rage... or run in and Tclap. ive done many a pull starting with T clap so i dont have to go chasing the off target down the hall to the healers

Stewed
06-06-2008, 07:35 AM
I'm sure I read it somewhere else on this site...
Shield Slam - Revenge - Dev - Dev... repeat

I love this rotation, works very well for me.

OneSong
06-24-2008, 12:07 PM
Njalil,

The only suggestion I'd make -- not to you, but when I alter the guides for new players -- is to use Heroic/Devastate before the first Shield Slam. This is for the practical reason of virtually guaranteeing you hit your target.

Newb here, sorry if this is off the topic, but why does using Heroic/dev before the 1st SS make it more likely that you will hit your target?

Pasucon
06-24-2008, 03:19 PM
If I remember correctly, it is because special moves (yellow damage) have a lower base chance to miss. If you spend a chunk of rage on a SS and it misses + you get a few dodges and parries, you could be rage-starved with no threat on the target. Devastate is cheaper, and even if you miss you will likely have enough rage to land one before you lose the mob. The assumption is that you aren't able to land an attack with 100% probability. If this is not true, SS away! (Also note the HS makes normal white damage yellow- it is a special attack with a higher chance to hit than normal damage)

Megatrohn
06-26-2008, 09:24 AM
If I remember correctly, it is because special moves (yellow damage) have a lower base chance to miss. If you spend a chunk of rage on a SS and it misses + you get a few dodges and parries, you could be rage-starved with no threat on the target. Devastate is cheaper, and even if you miss you will likely have enough rage to land one before you lose the mob. The assumption is that you aren't able to land an attack with 100% probability. If this is not true, SS away! (Also note the HS makes normal white damage yellow- it is a special attack with a higher chance to hit than normal damage)

This is incorrect. Special moves have the same chance to miss as white attacks. The reason you might want to do a heroic strike + devastate on the pull is because it gives you two chances for a successful attack.

Sangi
06-26-2008, 12:46 PM
I hope it wasn't my post. Way back when the new changes to Dev first came out I created a spreadsheet (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p3uFFBN0T8l_vbWutZbwnXg&hl=en) on google docs to see if the rotation would change. I used the numbers that I had at that time to create it. This was massively disproven and I am embarrassed even to bring it up.

It calculated the best 5 move threat (opening and a single rotation) and the best 9 move threat(enough for a full sunders to be applied). Based on my numbers at that time SS & Rev Devx2 SS was still the best opening move by 4 threat. However for a full application of Dev, Dev x3 SS, Rev, Dev x2 was better by about 225 threat. This was a 5% increase over the standard SS, Rev, Dev x2. However its a difference of only 225 threat over 13 seconds or about 20 TPS. This isn't that big of a difference. These numbers were never validated and aside from the innate threat values I think I got some of my assumptions wrong.

However on pulls I usually find that it is about burst threat. You want the most threat on the mob before the caster's spells/insane melee hit it and you have about 3 seconds to do it. After this you can settle in for a rotation. So now I use SS/HS followed by either a Rev or Dev depending rage and try to drop in a second HS even if it drops my rotation out of whack. I find I have a decent lead on the DPS and can then settle into a rotation to stay there.

Pasucon
06-26-2008, 05:46 PM
This is incorrect. Special moves have the same chance to miss as white attacks. The reason you might want to do a heroic strike + devastate on the pull is because it gives you two chances for a successful attack.

Huh. Then why different hit cap values for auto-swings and special attacks? Or does that only apply to DW classes, with special attacks exempted from the DW penalty? I've played a rogue enough to know there's a difference between the hit cap for white attacks and yellow attacks on a rogue, and assumed it was due to an innate chance to miss difference. Is it due to whether or not an attack suffers DW penalty? Or is it something more devious, such as hit rules being different by class?

There are so many different sources of information about topics like this, that it is very difficult to reconcile all the different little "facts" that you learn.

Tatt
06-26-2008, 05:50 PM
All I can comment on is fury warriors with precision...95 means no specials will miss. I believe for tanks and arms warriors that number becomes 142.

Pasucon
06-26-2008, 05:57 PM
Wowwikki has rogues (with 5/5 precision) at 363 to not miss white attacks, and 64 to not miss specials. Here's the link to the different chances to miss:

Hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit)

I believe that the differing chance to miss is based off the special attacks of dual-wielders; I think those attacks are not affected by the DW penalty.

Anyone, confirm/deny? It would clear up my confusion quite a bit. :)

Prunetracy
06-26-2008, 10:41 PM
Or does that only apply to DW classes, with special attacks exempted from the DW penalty?

Yes, this is the case. The DW miss rate penalty only applies to white attacks. 1h, 2h, and special attacks all share the same miss rate.

rustyboy
06-27-2008, 01:28 AM
For a tank I believe 142 Hit and 57 Expertise will cap your chances of getting dodged, missing with specials and reducing your chance to be parried by most mobs dramatically. If you have a Druid or Draenei (Warrior, Paladin, Hunter) in your group you need only 95 hit as you get an extra 1% hit from their abilities.

I did read somewhere when they made the change to Devastate to include sunders the recommended opening was to start with 3 Devastates and then start the SS, Rev, Dev, Dev rotation.

Oggr
07-04-2008, 11:03 AM
I definately agree about opening with an SS. It generates so much initial threat that you dont have to worry about anyone at all pulling off of you...as long as it lands :P I use to use the Dev Dev SS opener for generating threat on targets for small amounts of rage in order to maintain a rage pool so I would NOT become rage starved early on in a fight. It worked very, very well in Gruul, Mag, SSC and TK. But now in Hygal and BT I am noticing the raid dps are growing threat at a faster rate than my threat output in certain pulls. So with my hit rating close to capped I miss my SS very rarely if ever, along with imp Bloodrage this allows me to have that initial threat BOOM. It may not be the best in terms of rage management or use of the Dev for AR purposes, but it certainly reduces the stress you can experience with alot of pulls and dps that arent paying attention to the threat monitor. That on its own is why it gets my support :P

Smaken
07-10-2008, 08:38 AM
Newb here, sorry if this is off the topic, but why does using Heroic/dev before the 1st SS make it more likely that you will hit your target?

SS (assuming talents) is 17 rage.

HS & Dev (assuming talents as well) is 18 rage.

Assuming no hit and no expertise, chance to not hit is (Miss 9%, Dodge 6.5%, Parry 9.00%, Block 6.5%) 31%. (Obviously most tanks have at least some +hit and some expertise, but instead of making up those numbers I'm going to leave them out)

So if you have 20 rage at the beginning of a fight (with Bloodrage & Anger Management you should be able to get that) you can choose between having 1 attack that has a 70% chance of hitting, or 2 attacks that both have a 70% chance of hitting.

The odds of missing both HS and Dev are about 1 in 10. Much better than the 3 in 10 odd of missing an opening strike if you go with SS.

The way I usually open is this:

1. Shoot the mob
2. Bloodrage (Bloodrage generates threat, so if you're going to use it, you might as well get extra credit for it)
3. Shield Block
4. Get hit by the mob. (Yay for extra rage!)
5. HS & Dev Combo
6. Shield Slam
7. Revenge (its always up by now)
8. Thunderclap
9. Dev
10. SS
11. Rev
12. Dev

etc.

I also throw in HS whenever I get a rage spike. Once I get to number 12 however, I go into a conservation mode, so that I can get the most threat per rage. Ergo,

(renewing TC & Demo whenever they are about to fall off)
SS
Rev
Dev
HS

is my priority list. Rather than use a specific sequence I use up as much rage as I have as soon as I get it. I am always 'rage starved', but really rage is just threat you haven't applied to the mob yet, right? The reason I use Revenge over Devastate is that it gives me an extra 7 rage to work with for something else.