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Clootie
03-13-2008, 04:26 PM
Curious... Is it completely needed to have talent points in imp defensive stance?
What kind of mobs/bosses (raid wise) would it be good for?

Sildas
03-13-2008, 04:48 PM
I think it helps for one of the RoS parts, and probably affects Hydross too. Oh, and Kael's Pyros.

If you're trying to decide between Imp. Defensive Stance and another talent you really want, take the other talent. Don't spec for one fight, unless you're really getting stuck on that fight.

Ceravantes
03-13-2008, 05:14 PM
If you are tanking in T5+ content it is extremely beneficial, as just about every fight has some form of dmg that will be mitigated by it.

Irellman
03-13-2008, 05:20 PM
Sure it was posted somewhere before:

Imp Defensive Stance:

Kara - yes
Gruul/Mag - no
T5+ - yes

I stuck to this rule and it served me well.

Ceravantes
03-13-2008, 05:23 PM
It is not helpful at all in kara, there are better places to spend your points until youa re in T5 content.

Irellman
03-13-2008, 05:52 PM
I can think of Maiden, Curator, Aran, Nightbane and Prince (to a lesser extend). There is also the latter half of Kara trash.

Tristessa
03-13-2008, 07:12 PM
I can think of Maiden, Curator, Aran, Nightbane and Prince (to a lesser extend). There is also the latter half of Kara trash.
Maiden: can still use Holy Protection Pots--plus the fight is mainly about staying alive in Repentance phase. Success depends more on healers and dispelling IMO.

Curator: damage from adds will be on others in the raid.

Aran: you'd expect to DPS here, so oftentimes you won't be in Def. Stance--even if you have taking gear on.

Nightbane: Smoldering Breath, yes...Charred Earth and Smoking Blast are physical damage though.

Prince: affects Shadow Nova and Shadow Word: Pain only. Can argue that Parry + Thrash are the real killers, here.

Latter half of Kara trash: I agree with the fact that they hurt and having Imp. Defensive Stance will help--but there should be enough offtanks or CC to minimize the pain.

I can't say anything about T5+ content though. =S

Notalda
03-13-2008, 11:15 PM
Never had it, never missed it.

It can probably help, our other warrior tank swears by it. Myself, I could very easily tank anything we killed so far (5/5 Hyjal, 5/9 BT) without it.

Dots
03-14-2008, 04:16 AM
You could easily tank everything without using Shield Slam too, but that's not a good reason to not pick it up, is it?
IDS is a decent mitigation talent in T5 and higher content, there is a lot of magical damage going around. The only reason to ever drop it would be in favor of some more threat talents, but those are not really needed while progressing. They are not really needed for farming either if you gear correctly.

Marn
03-14-2008, 05:51 AM
Short answer: the two fights you need this talent for are Kael'thas if you're tanking him because most of his damage is magic, and Illidan if you are tanking the Flames of Azzinoth. Every other boss, IDS is definitely not something you will notice missing.

Clootie, what you need to do is look at every boss fight you are likely to see in the next period of time between respecs (if you respec for pvp or farming) and consider how much of the damage you take is magic compared with how much is physical, and then weigh that against what you would get for points spent elsewhere.



Long answer: this is a brief summary of the damage that bosses from T5-T6 do...

Hydros the Unstable: 100% magic damage, IDS gets full benefits
The Lurker Below: if you don't get spat on, the only magic damage you take is if/when you jump in the boiling water
Leotheras the Blind: almost 100% physical damage, IDS is useful vs your demon's shadowbolts (but you should be using Spell Reflect anyway)
Fathom-Lord Karathress: useful vs Spitfire Totems, Frost Shock, and Waterbolt Volley; IDS's usefulness here is questionable at best
Morogrim Tidewalker: helps vs Tidal Wave, but almost all of his damage on you is physical except for that 1 spell
Lady Vashj: Shock Burst, Static Charge, Toxic Spores...IDS is good here but, if you don't want to spec it you won't miss it

Void Reaver: I heard his damage is all arcane, which if true means IDS would reduce all the damage you take from him by 6%...decide for yourself how useful this is given your healers, your personal mitigation, and the fact that this is Void Reaver
A'lar: if you're tanking A'lar almost all the damage you take over the course of the fight will be physical
High Astromancer Solarian: this is another fight where IDS helps due to the amount of magic damage flying around but, it's not so much as to make IDS a necessity
Prince Kael'thas Sunstrider: if you're tanking the prince you really should have IDS to reduce the maximum amount of damage you'd take from Pyroblast/Fireballs etc.

Rage Winterchill: if you stand in Death and Decay, IDS helps
Anetheron: if you're tanking the infernals he spawns, IDS is pretty huge unless you stack 365 FR; keep in mind you want to be able to tank these which means you'll need to be taking enough damage to generate rage to build hate...IDS also helps vs Carrion Swarm but again it's not something to spec IDS to counter
Kaz'rogal: another fight where 100% of the damage you take is physical
Azgalor: helps vs Rain of Fire if he chooses to throw it over you; if he doesn't, then IDS doesn't help, although if he does, it's my opinion that Rain of Fire is not powerful enough even in conjunction with Azgalor's melee attacks to kill you if your healers are paying attention
Archimonde: if you stay out of Doomfires, IDS does nothing to help you here...of course, if you have a lot of people die then some of the Soul Charge damage can be reduced by IDS depending on the charge but, if too many people die then it's a wipe anyway...ideally you would take 0 magic damage whatsoever during this fight, but if you get a Doomfire run over you by a panicky melee or if Grip isn't immediately decursed off you like it is normally then IDS helps mitigate the damage (P.S. 95%+ of his damage on you will still be physical)

High Warlord Naj'entus: most of the damage you take from this guy will be physical but, that Tidal Shield is a killer!...if you're below 50% life and your healers are afk :p
Supremus: stay out of fires and you will not need IDS...stand in fire and not even IDS can save you
Shade of Akama: you might get Rain of Fire'd on by an Elementalist but other than that you're pretty much safe to ignore IDS on this fight
Teron Gorefiend: helps vs Doom Blossom which is an insignificant percentage of his damage on you compared to his melee attacks
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 99.9% of the damage you take from this guy is physical; 100% if you never take a tick of Fel-Acid Breath
Essence of Souls: phase 1, IDS is worthless (no magic damage); phase 2, IDS is worthless (6% off a Spirit Shock that never should have hit you in the first place is only key if you fail to reflect Deaden AND THEN your kickers fail to interrupt the Spirit Shock...); phase 3, IDS is almost worthless because the aura really doesn't tick that hard, it's not hard to heal through, and if you're using your rage properly the Soul Screams aren't a problem, this is something you have limited control over
Mother Shahraz: as an offtank, this is definitely helpful; as the maintank, it's still helpful but if you don't have it don't worry because the magic damage you take is sporadic and, in the case of Fatal Attraction, controlled by the fellow members of your raid...i.e. if you're dying because people keep getting teleported on top of you maybe they should run away faster and you could tell your healers over vent to throw harder heals on you for the next 8 seconds
Illidari Council: you do not take significant magic damage from any single council-member to justify speccing IDS specifically for this fight
Illidan: if you're tanking the Flames of Azzinoth, IDS is pretty much required, or it's at least common sense to reduce the gratuitous fire damage a tank will be taking, even with max FR; if you're main-tanking Illidan, again this is a fight where you are not taking enough magic damage to justify speccing IDS specifically for this fight


Hope that helps, also some extra tips:
1) don't spec for trash
2) Karazhan is not that unforgiving that you need IDS but over the course of a night I can see where it would help...of course, it's Karazhan
3) Irellman's right, Gruul and Magtheridon require 0 points in IDS


I mean as always, if you aren't comfortable without speccing 2 or 3 into IDS then it's fine, but I'm just suggesting that it's usefulness is dependent not only on what encounters you do but what you do during said encounters as some of the damage can be mitigated by just never putting yourself in a situation where you take it in the first place.



P.S. "You could easily tank everything without using Shield Slam?" Do you think you're laying the hyperbole on a little thick there, given that Shield Slam and Improved Defensive Stance are slightly different in their functionalities and thus not quite valid for direct comparison? I mean yes, I'm sure we all know about how Heroic Strike outscales Shield Slam and everything but, that's reliant on your TPS with just Heroic Strike and Devastate and that jazz, and it's not something that can be pulled off by any tank in any gear setup.

If we're going to talk about all-purpose rotations and talent specs then, it's safe to assume that one will most certainly get Shield Slam (and use it pretty much every 6 seconds), and then their decision to put points in IDS (if any) will be brought up on a case by case basis based on what content they're attempting and how valuable they feel it will be to them and their raid given who they raid with, and their boss strategies. I mean that's all I'm trying to say, I'm not attacking you Dots I'm just saying you're over-exaggerating for effect.

I mean, personally I agree with Notalda except, I had 2/3 IDS for pretty much the past 10 months up until maybe the last month and, dropping one or both points out, I'm not noticing a huge difference. Now, it may be because, the amount that the talent reduces magic damage taken by is very small, and it might be that I only do Hyjal/BT content so the amount of magic damage I take is lower compared to an SSC/TK tank, but still that's why it's up to Clootie to decide for himself once he gets all the information he can whether he wants to put points into it or not. For every tank it can be different, and it's just talent points, we can all respec if we find ourselves needing more magic damage reduction or put points elsewhere if we aren't taking enough damage to justify the speccing of IDS.

Nicki
03-14-2008, 06:25 AM
void reavers damage is melee except for pounding.

And as a paladin i've tanked prince kael'thas without spell warding...Pretty moot point on that boss..maybe if id been severely undergeared...or if the dps was terrible...

I don't view the talent as a requirement for main tanking only for flame tanking on illidan if it is causing wipes. If the healers can cope then rather have them cope 3 points seem better spent else where for 90% of the time..

Edgewalker
03-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Rage Winterchill: if you stand in Death and Decay, IDS helps
Anetheron: if you're tanking the infernals he spawns, IDS is pretty huge unless you stack 365 FR; keep in mind you want to be able to tank these which means you'll need to be taking enough damage to generate rage to build hate...IDS also helps vs Carrion Swarm but again it's not something to spec IDS to counter
Azgalor: helps vs Rain of Fire if he chooses to throw it over you; if he doesn't, then IDS doesn't help, although if he does, it's my opinion that Rain of Fire is not powerful enough even in conjunction with Azgalor's melee attacks to kill you if your healers are paying attention
Archimonde: if you stay out of Doomfires, IDS does nothing to help you here...of course, if you have a lot of people die then some of the Soul Charge damage can be reduced by IDS depending on the charge but, if too many people die then it's a wipe anyway...ideally you would take 0 magic damage whatsoever during this fight, but if you get a Doomfire run over you by a panicky melee or if Grip isn't immediately decursed off you like it is normally then IDS helps mitigate the damage (P.S. 95%+ of his damage on you will still be physical)

High Warlord Naj'entus: most of the damage you take from this guy will be physical but, that Tidal Shield is a killer!...if you're below 50% life and your healers are afk :p
Supremus: stay out of fires and you will not need IDS...stand in fire and not even IDS can save you
Shade of Akama: you might get Rain of Fire'd on by an Elementalist but other than that you're pretty much safe to ignore IDS on this fight
Teron Gorefiend: helps vs Doom Blossom which is an insignificant percentage of his damage on you compared to his melee attacks
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 99.9% of the damage you take from this guy is physical; 100% if you never take a tick of Fel-Acid Breath
Essence of Souls: phase 1, IDS is worthless (no magic damage); phase 2, IDS is worthless (6% off a Spirit Shock that never should have hit you in the first place is only key if you fail to reflect Deaden AND THEN your kickers fail to interrupt the Spirit Shock...); phase 3, IDS is almost worthless because the aura really doesn't tick that hard, it's not hard to heal through, and if you're using your rage properly the Soul Screams aren't a problem, this is something you have limited control over
Mother Shahraz: as an offtank, this is definitely helpful; as the maintank, it's still helpful but if you don't have it don't worry because the magic damage you take is sporadic and, in the case of Fatal Attraction, controlled by the fellow members of your raid...i.e. if you're dying because people keep getting teleported on top of you maybe they should run away faster and you could tell your healers over vent to throw harder heals on you for the next 8 seconds
Illidari Council: you do not take significant magic damage from any single council-member to justify speccing IDS specifically for this fight
Illidan: if you're tanking the Flames of Azzinoth, IDS is pretty much required, or it's at least common sense to reduce the gratuitous fire damage a tank will be taking, even with max FR; if you're main-tanking Illidan, again this is a fight where you are not taking enough magic damage to justify speccing IDS specifically for this fight



I mean as always, if you aren't comfortable without speccing 2 or 3 into IDS then it's fine, but I'm just suggesting that it's usefulness is dependent not only on what encounters you do but what you do during said encounters as some of the damage can be mitigated by just never putting yourself in a situation where you take it in the first place.

.


I just can't even begin to understand not putting 3/3 in Imp. DS if you are main tnaking for a guild. Shahraz Fatal Attraction can easily gib a tank with bad hits beforehand, on Illidan you can get hit with Agonizing Flames, Shadow Bursts, and Draw Soul, and the majority of added burst on Illidari Council is magical damage from Flamestrikes, Blizzards, or Holy Damage. Some of the magical damage is plain unavoidable on that fight.
"Phase 3 the aura doesnt really hit that hard..." - You can't be serious? Clearly you haven't ever healed RoS, or you wouldn't make outlandish claims like that. Sure P3 is easy, but the aura in conjunction with normal melee and power burns is extremely deadly without continual heals. Same with Azgalor and his RoF tick, again sometimes unavoidable, which can be deadly again in conjunction with silence and bad luck. You managed to downplay almost all magical damage in BT and Hyjal and seem to have no regard for the healing difficulty or luck factor in some of these encounters, and in general it's just bad advice all around.
I also can't even begin to imagine what else you would put points in that matches that talent in utility and worth.

Dots
03-14-2008, 05:28 PM
P.S. "You could easily tank everything without using Shield Slam?" Do you think you're laying the hyperbole on a little thick there...blabla

The point was that 'I never needed it' is not a good reason not to pick up a talent. I'm sure you didn't need whatever else you want to get instead either.
Edgewalker summed up the rest.

Notalda
03-15-2008, 01:54 AM
I picked more threat talents instead, which I did need, as our DPS was getting bored when they needed to hold back.

I tanked Kael'thas, with and without IDS, didn't make any difference, our healers never noticed when I specced out of it.

I tanked the infernals on Anetheron, first with FR, then without, without IDS, it was and still is, very easy to heal me (at another kill, I was playing a resto shammy [mostly T4 level gear, with a few T5-ish pieces], keeping a warrior without IDS up on the infernals, healing him was very easy, never went below 70%. I also healed most of the T5/T6 fights on that shaman [4/5 Hyjal, 3/9 BT healed], and didn't notice any difference in healing difficulty when the tank had IDS, or when he didn't).

Hydross I tank with capped resist, and we switch shortly before the 100% mark, I resist the vast majority of the damage Hydross does, IDS has little benefit there.

I tank Leotheras Demon form, where I do NOT want to take less damage. I'm low on rage there anyway due to resists, so when the demon actually manages to throw me some damage, I want to have full benefits. IDS would lover my threat there.

Solarian's damage is laughable. Better have some threat/damage talents than more survival.

So far, the only fight for which I'd spec for IDS, is Illidan, but we're not there yet. All the rest, I prefer my threat talents instead, as they proved more useful.

I didn't drop IDS because "I didn't need it". I dropped it because I needed other talents, which I couldn't take while still keeping IDS.

To summarize: I did all but one of the fights where IDS was supposed to help, but from experience, it didn't make any difference there, while the threat talents I took instead did. And from that, I conclude IDS is very far from required, or even from being good.

But, that's my experience. Others may have different experiences.

Athifos
03-15-2008, 08:14 AM
Here's how I see it, and feel free to prove me wrong. I feel that 6% spell mitigation is not worth 3 talent points and here's why. 6% is so minimal you won't notice it. When you hit by Kael's fireball (about 12k damage), it will only be reduced by 700. One tick of Renew/Rejuv/Regrowth/Lifebloom for 3 talents? If it gets to the point where that 700 extra hp is saving your life then one or more of the following things could be wrong: 1) You did something wrong (no shield block/not using trinkets/etc), 2) You are undergeared for the fight, or 3) Your healers suck.

WoW raiding is all about min/maxing and in my opinion and experience, Imp Def Stance is a wasted talent slot.

Edgewalker
03-15-2008, 09:02 AM
Again people are throwing around phrases like mix/maxing and max agro without giving me the talents they are getting that are replacements for IDS.
Imp. Bloodrage? Imp. Taunt?

Do you seriously think 700 shaved off an attack isn't worth 3 talent points? 6%, in World of Warcraft terms, is an absolutely gigantic amount to be flat reduced at virtually no cost to you. This is especially true for raiding, which is what all of us are talking about here, when there are NO TALENTS WORTH TAKING IN COMPARISON to Imp. DS for a main tank.

If you are an offtank, different story, as you may be speccing into Imp. Demo and do "need" small extra agro boosts or variation talents that a MT won't get.

Khordam
03-15-2008, 10:55 AM
Anger Management, perhaps? For those of us who apply tclap themselves, it's probably only a 1-point investment, leaving 2 more for, say, imp bloodrage, so you can open fights with a shield slam (or a spell reflection, should you still be doing 5-mans)

Notalda
03-15-2008, 11:02 AM
I took imp. heroic strike and anger management instead. (dropped IDS and 1 point from imp. shield wall)

Both of those helped a lot in both off-tanking (mostly on trash) and rage starved situations (everything before Azgalor in Hyjal, Teron in BT).

In my experience, the switch was very much worth it: I can push out slightly more threat, and our DPS department loves me for it. That way, we can kill bosses faster, and our healers love that. Everyone is happy.

There has been no fight so far, which involved a significant amount of magical damage, where our healers had any problems keeping me above 80%.

I think RoS will be the first, once we get back to that boss again.

Taelas
03-15-2008, 11:57 AM
Again people are throwing around phrases like mix/maxing and max agro without giving me the talents they are getting that are replacements for IDS.
Imp. Bloodrage? Imp. Taunt?
12/5/44 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czZVZbEtoI0zcxst).


Do you seriously think 700 shaved off an attack isn't worth 3 talent points? 6%, in World of Warcraft terms, is an absolutely gigantic amount to be flat reduced at virtually no cost to you. This is especially true for raiding, which is what all of us are talking about here, when there are NO TALENTS WORTH TAKING IN COMPARISON to Imp. DS for a main tank.
If it was 6% flat, yes. It's not, though. It's strictly magic damage.

It's not worth speccing for unless you're stuck on a boss due to heavy magic damage.

Ic3mAn
03-15-2008, 12:05 PM
I saw this thread first thing this morning when I checked the site and can say this is the exact argument I am having with a few tanks in my guild as I have been looking over their specs/talents and gear for T5 content (SSC/TK). It is a pretty opinionated topic, but truthfully I think more would agree that Imp Def Stance is a waste of talent points.

To answer your question first, Edgewalker, how about you post your current spec so we can look at that first, THEN make the recommendations on where to put those extra points. Honestly, IMO, I dont think those 3 points for Imp Def Stance are worth compared to some of the better threat talents and or damage mitigation talents you could take. Below is my build, a threat build, along with the best rage reduction you can get to help you with threat.

12/5/44 (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3500030100000000000000005000000000000 00000000055511033020103501351)

I believe someone mentioned a few posts above mine that the 6% damage reduction is really not worth the expense of 3 talent points. If you have good healers in your raids, there should be NO REASON that they cannot adjust to tanks losing 600HP per 10K damage taken. That is a measly tick from a Resto Druid's HoT's that they SHOULD be keeping up on you, along with a Holy Priests Renew. Now, that being said, if your healers are having troubles keeping you up, then maybe, just maybe try it. But from my experience, I have NOT seen a difference from spec'ing with it or without it. Maybe I'm just spoiled with some good healers. Once again, why put those 3 points in there when you are only going to see a few bosses that deal direct spell damage.

Edgewalker
03-15-2008, 12:16 PM
I just don't know how to argue it anymore past this point. If you bothered to do the long term math or study a WWS parse or recounts of tank death I think maybe you would come to different conclusions, or maybe if you aren't pushing for min/max progression it just isn't a concern.
At the end of the day though the indisputable facts are these -

For the hardest hitting, end game raid bosses, magical damage constitutes the majority of the un-anticipated "burst" that a tank will experience, and will often result, especially in first kills or progression, in tank death.
For these same mobs Anger Management and Imp. Bloodrage are completely and totally wasted talents, as the damage output is high enough to create a near limitless rage situation.

All I am getting from most of those trying to refute IDS as a good talent is that you would rather have an extra 26 rage a MINUTE than significant damage reduction without any effort on your part. It's simply poor advice for anything past a 5 man.




Edit - And to the person above, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?0500030000000000000000005000000000000 00000000055511033002103531351)
is my current spec for progression or learning, with the 1 point as a floater point that either goes into Taunt or HS. It's really pretty irrelevant.

Satrina
03-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Anyone who gems stamina over socket bonuses and argues against IDS is being extremely inconsistent.

Taelas
03-15-2008, 12:28 PM
I have never tried to refute Improved Def. Stance as a good talent. It IS a good talent. It just doesn't fit in my build. I'd love to have the points for it, but I don't. I consider the threat talents I have more important at the end of the day for the content I run.

I don't see enough use out of Shield Wall to justify spending talent points in ISW, so I have to spend it elsewhere to get further down the tree. Improved Bloodrage is my choice, though it'd fit just as well in Improved Taunt. Improved Bloodrage also directly affects my playstyle; it's not a talent I want to give up.

At the end of the day, a paladin has less magic damage reduction and still gets through the encounters all the same. This is also true for druids. There is no reason a warrior can't do the same. It is not a necessary talent. It's a great talent -- but it's not necessary.

Satrina
03-15-2008, 12:32 PM
As with many things, that is true until it isn't. The further you go along in progression, the more encounters start throwing raid-wide damage around. Just as 800 extra tank health from stamina gemming can indeed mean the difference between struggling with an encounter or not, 700 less damage on the tank in the context of who gets healed can make the same difference. Not always, but it can. The whole throw another healer at the tank mindset has a very limited lifespan past SSC/TK. For this same reason, avoidance becomes more valuable as you go.

Ic3mAn
03-15-2008, 12:52 PM
Edit - And to the person above, WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?0500030000000000000000005000000000000 00000000055511033002103531351)
is my current spec for progression or learning, with the 1 point as a floater point that either goes into Taunt or HS. It's really pretty irrelevant.Lol, first off my bad. I looked at your post and thought you were the original thread creator. Simply my mistake there. So yeah, your spec irrelevant. Clootie should have posted theres to make adjustments.

This argument is purely based on playstyle and the type of protection spec that the tank wants to run with. If you are wanting to run a full damage reduction spec with a 8/5/48 talent tree that includes, Imp Shield Wall, Imp Def Stance, then sure keep the talent. It is a good talent to have. I can see the usefullness in Imp Def Stance easily in SSC/TK for a damage reduction tank, but as Norrath has stated there simply is no room in his talent tree nor mine for that talent to prove its worth. Like I said, maybe I am just spoiled with good heals to come up with my assumption and opinion.


Just as 800 extra tank health from stamina gemming can indeed mean the difference between struggling with an encounter or not, 700 less damage on the tank in the context of who gets healed can make the same difference. Not always, but it can. The whole throw another healer at the tank mindset has a very limited lifespan past SSC/TK. For this same reason, avoidance becomes more valuable as you go.Quite true. But that argument should only exist if and only if your healers are unable to keep you up or struggling on healing their tanks. If you are putting another healer into the raid to make up for this, then there is a problem and the MT/OT's should be looking into taking damage reduction talents over threat until they get enough gear to move back into a threat build. So, I agree with you totally to the extent of my comment about that problem should be looked into when that raid is having troubles keeping the tank up. Now with gemming +STA gems over gaining socket bonuses and being against Imp Def Stance meaning that arguing this point is inconsistent... Its only true if that person is trying to spec for damage reduction. I disagree solely because of my talent tree, but if I were to respec into damage reduction then yes, I would take that talent right along with Imp Shield Wall.

Just my opinion... :p

Dots
03-15-2008, 03:28 PM
As everyone keeps arguing that Imp Def Stance isn't needed; those rage efficiency talents ( =/= threat talents) are not needed either. Since the Devastate changes and introduction of Expertise, the only single tanked T6 boss where you don't easily stay ahead of the DPS with proper buffs and gear is Kaz'Rogal if you are not a tauren, but the problem with him is getting stunned, which will fill your rage bar anyways. Better rage efficiency doesn't help much here.
Of course there is also Gurtogg, where threat reduction is part of the encounter, so it will help a bit here. Though most of the damage will be done during Fel Rage anyways.

Notalda
03-15-2008, 04:22 PM
True enough, the threat talents aren't needed either. But the original question was wether IDS is required. And it isn't. It helps, at times. If you have 3 points for it, take it. But it's by no means "required".

That's all.

Edgewalker
03-15-2008, 06:47 PM
. Like I said, maybe I am just spoiled with good heals to come up with my assumption and opinion.



I've always hated this argument. No amount of "good heals" will save you with a bad luck string, and the less heals you need on the main tank the easier and faster you will progress. This is where IDS comes in, where mitigation comes in, and where maximization of your own character as a tank comes in.
Being spoiled with "good heals" doesn't.

Ic3mAn
03-15-2008, 07:03 PM
I've always hated this argument. No amount of "good heals" will save you with a bad luck string, and the less heals you need on the main tank the easier and faster you will progress. This is where IDS comes in, where mitigation comes in, and where maximization of your own character as a tank comes in. Being spoiled with "good heals" doesn't.Bad luck can happen in any way, shape or form. It doesnt matter how you spec, play or get healed. Nothing can help stop those back to back crushing blows or large strikes from coming. Yes, the damage mitigation from this talent will help save you a few HP in the end, but once again, from my experience I have not noticed a big deal otherwise with the talent or without. Nor have my healers ever had a problem with it. This argument is all opinionated and based on opinions from players. As I mentioned before, its how you want to play your spec. Do you want to be a damage mitigation tank or threat? Do you want to play this way or that way? The talent is not needed 100% of the time and when it is, it is a luxury for those that have it.

Edgewalker
03-15-2008, 07:18 PM
Bad luck can happen in any way, shape or form. It doesnt matter how you spec, play or get healed. Nothing can help stop those back to back crushing blows or large strikes from coming.

And the entire point of being a good main tank is minimizing the impact on the raid when this happens. This is why IDS is better than Anger Management, and this is why warriors are the main tanks for 99% of guilds getting world firsts (Last Stand and Shield Wall). That's my point, and last post in this thread.

Ciderhelm
03-15-2008, 07:23 PM
Bad luck can happen in any way, shape or form. It doesnt matter how you spec, play or get healed.

This is an indefensible argument. If you believed details don't matter, why would you come to a site that is essentially built around helping people min/max? Bad luck may happen, but there's 6% less bad luck happening with Imp Defensive Stance.

A legitimate argument can be made, but this isn't how you make it. Edgewalker's argument is 100% correct. The way to counter his argument would be to say, "no, my raid group doesn't need it as much as they need more Threat." Which, if you're talking about a Main Tank, may indicate a different problem.

Ic3mAn
03-15-2008, 10:26 PM
This is an indefensible argument. If you believed details don't matter, why would you come to a site that is essentially built around helping people min/max? Bad luck may happen, but there's 6% less bad luck happening with Imp Defensive Stance.

A legitimate argument can be made, but this isn't how you make it. Edgewalker's argument is 100% correct. The way to counter his argument would be to say, "no, my raid group doesn't need it as much as they need more Threat." Which, if you're talking about a Main Tank, may indicate a different problem.I see my opinion has been taken out of text. I believe I did say that if you ARE spec'ing for damage reduction with an 8/5/48 build then of course, you should take this talent, which I guess I did not make that clear enough. My comments were simply regarding that it all depends on the situation, gear and play style. Sorry to step on toes, I simply expressed a point which I feel I did not make clear enough and that is my fault. I also apologize for not having the proper tact to make my counter argument.

I will say this, I have been visiting this site and have linked a ton of articles, by you Cider, for my tanks to look at and learn. I have always trusted comments from this site and helped build better tanks with it. So I hope you arent taking what I have posted in disrespect, because that definately isnt what I am trying to do. I have simply just tried to apply the same argument I have had for a long time to what I have experienced so far. I honestly dont see why stating "Bad luck will still happen no matter what" was a big deal, because that is the truth. BUT I followed by stating that if you are spec'ing for damage reduction to of course take this talent.

Ceravantes
03-16-2008, 02:18 PM
If, as a MT you need to drop talents that increase your survivability in order to get a 26 RPM talent to increase your threat, it may be time to find a new MT. If you are a MT and don't think every Bit of damage reduction will help you to progress farther and faster you should be replaced.

if you are a MT, there is no reason to not have IDS in T5+content unless you respec before each individual boss fight.


Your opinion was not taken out of context, there is no reason that a T5+ tank should not be speccing for survivability, This is perhaps why so many people/guilds are stuck in ssc/tk though, who knows.

Notalda
03-16-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm happily tanking BT & Hyjal, and I don't have IDS. I specced out of it, without our healers noticing any difference (otoh, our DPS did notice the slightly higher threat).

I'm not going to spec into a talent which helps with one or maybe two bosses we don't have on farm yet. For all the rest, the magic damage I take is very easily healable, according to our healers.

Lets see (again):

Hydross: I can't remember the last time I went below 90%. And we usually do it with 5 healers (used 6 in the beginning). Besides, I resist the majority of the damage anyway.

Lurker: Uhm...IDS is worthless.

Leotheras: When tanking the human form, there's hardly any magic damage involved. When tanking the demon, I resist the majority of the damage, and the little I don't, I want those to hit me, so I get rage.

I can tank both forms alone, FYI.

Morogrim: The magical damage I take here is negligible at best.

Karathress: Tanking the shaman, I usually have a shaman to grounding totem the frost shock. Tanking the boss, the magical damage I take is from the totem only, which dies very fast. IDS would help me little.

Vashj: Forked lightning hits for nearly nothing on me, static charge is easily healed through anyway, and I have a shaman to ground the shock. If the shaman dies, our healers never ever failed to heal through anyway.

Al'ar: I know how not to stand in flame patches, thank you very much.

Void Reaver: I'd rather have rage from pummel (I usually pop berserker rage on pummels), than reduce the damage it does. Shamans chain heal melee anyway, which will keep me topped aswell.

Solarian: Her damage is a joke.

Kael'thas: Now here, IDS may have a noticable impact, but the fact is, we never wiped due to lack of MT healing. Thus, why should I spec for IDS for this fight only, when we can kill him flawlessly anyway?

Rage: IDS may be noticable here too, but when you can kill a boss with 18 people in raid, does it matter? No.

Anetheron: For the Infernal tank, IDS may have a noticable impact. But so would FR. We do it each week without FR, and without IDS. A single bored healer is enough on the infernal tank.

Kaz'rogal: No magic damage.

Azgalor: The MT has HoTs ticking, the only magic damage is RoF. Granted, silence + RoF may be an "oh-shit" moment, but that's what Last Stand, Nightmare Veins and shield wall is for.

Again, we never had problems there.

Archimonde: No noticable magic damage on the tank unless someone screws up (in which case it's most probably a wipe anyway).

Najentus: Shamans spam chain heal, so even if the tank doesn't have IDS, he'll be healed to full no matter what. Having IDS wouldn't save the healers neither mana, nor effort.

Supremus: Standing in fire is bad. I don't do it.

Akama: Hardly any magical damage.

Teron: No significant magical damage either.

Bloodboil: No significant magic damage either (or we wouldn't use amp. magic, would we?)

That's how far we're at the moment, and there's 1 fight where I'd think IDS may be justifiable: Kael. One who we kill flawlessly every time we go TK.

Thus, for me, personally, IDS is worthless. I don't need it. I asked my healers, they said I should stay with my current spec, as they have no problem healing me. Our DPS department agreed.

Therefore, my conclusion is, that if one has 3 spare points, spend it on IDS, it's a nice talent. But it is by no means required or even useful for the majority of the fights currently in the game.

Our DPS is kinda up the tank's on threat, so I'd very much prefer having threat talents instead of a survival talent that is useless on the majority of the bosses we're fightning nowadays. I agree, that a tank needs to survive whatever boss the raid is working on, and the moment we face one, where IDS would make the kill smoother, I'd spec back to it. But we killed everything up to 5/5 Hyjal, 5/9 BT without IDS, and the tank dying prematurey was never the reason of the wipe. The tank was usually near full HP when the attempt turned into a wipe.

So why should I spec IDS in this case? Our experience clearly shows we don't have survivability problems.

Edgewalker
03-20-2008, 02:52 PM
So why should I spec IDS in this case? Our experience clearly shows we don't have survivability problems.


Your DPS really noticed a difference in an additional 26 rage per minute?

These long posts where you list every boss and talk about the minimal impact IDS has are really missing the point, completely.

Xav
03-20-2008, 10:25 PM
The point of being a "main tank" or a tank in general is to keep the boss attacking a target that is the most easily healed. (Takes the least damage). And also provides ample threat generation so the boss can be nuked and killed. As said, with pretty standard group buffs now and proper gearing based on encounter, losing aggro is a thing of the past. You'll lose aggro if you're massively outgeared by the DPS, or if your DPS is purposelly playing stupid. Or simply if you aren't very good at all at generating threat.

Because of this, for a "standard" warrior, additional threat talents outside of the ones you pick up on your way up any spec in Protection, are wasted. If you're playing right, the additional rage from Imp Bloodrage, maxing Imp Heroic, and Anger Management, wont do a thing for your threat generation, because it's already more than sufficient.

Since the thread has devolved into this, I'll say this next bit. You shouldn't be losing aggro any more in an organized raid setting as the main tank. If you are, either your DPS is exceptionally retarded, or you need to relearn how to play. Put the points where they are still providing a an actual seen and felt benefit even if everyone is playing ideally/properly. That'd be IDS.

Ariedan
03-21-2008, 08:59 AM
I've actually been questioning not having IDS in my main spec lately, and want to know if I'm being stupid for not having it.

I'm currently just an OT. I tank adds, OT Supremus, Bloodboil, the priest in Council, and things like that. I main tank when the other warrior isn't there or when he feels like dpsing. However, the only thing I've main tanked were Supremus through Gorefiend. If I were to main tank more, I would put it in my permanent build. But otherwise, I respec for IDS accordingly (for the flames on Illidan, for example).

Stupid, yes or no?

Kazeyonoma
03-21-2008, 09:03 AM
if you've got the gold, i don't see a problem with it criss. most of these threads turn up because people qq about respec costs.

Ariedan
03-21-2008, 09:05 AM
I don't respec for pvp, so it's not anymore gold than most warriors spend.

Edgewalker
03-21-2008, 10:46 AM
I've actually been questioning not having IDS in my main spec lately, and want to know if I'm being stupid for not having it.

I'm currently just an OT. I tank adds, OT Supremus, Bloodboil, the priest in Council, and things like that. I main tank when the other warrior isn't there or when he feels like dpsing. However, the only thing I've main tanked were Supremus through Gorefiend. If I were to main tank more, I would put it in my permanent build. But otherwise, I respec for IDS accordingly (for the flames on Illidan, for example).

Stupid, yes or no?

As we have said before, the extra 26 rage a minute from Anger M. and Imp. BLoodrage don't really effect threat (it's all in your head) unless you have a poor threat cycle or terrible group setup.
IDS really shouldn't be something you need to spec in and out of, unless you are talking about picking up Imp. Demo and Imp. Tclap.

ebs2002
03-21-2008, 11:00 AM
I don't have IDS because I'm the only warrior on our raids, so I have 2/5 Imp Demo Shout (we don't use curse of recklessness), and I put that extra point to cap my Imp HS. That's significantly more than "26 RPM" for just one point. (I also don't have Imp Shield Wall because I rarely need to pop shield wall to begin with, and I'm never out of "oh shit" buttons).

3/3 Imp HS with a 1.8 speed weapon is 100 Rage/Min with 100% HS uptime (the math for 75%/50%/whatever% uptime is easy to do).

My spec, for reference: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3500030000000000000000005200000000000 00000001055511033000103501351)

byechee
03-21-2008, 11:02 AM
on what boss fight can you spam HS 100% of the time, assuming you're actually wearing tank gear?

as a corollary, do you healers hate you?

ebs2002
03-21-2008, 01:50 PM
Why would my healers hate me? Because I don't have Imp Defensive stance? No..I'm sure they love me more that I have Imp Demo Shout, since well over half the damage a tank takes is from physical damage affected by the bosses attack power...and I keep demo shout up even when I'm not MTing.

I never implied that I spam HS 100% of the time. I merely pointed out that the math was easy to do based on your HS percentage, because it's 100RPM when you use 100% HS, so it's 60RPM at 60% HS usage, 75RPM at 75% HS usage. See what I did there? Don't you feel silly?

Taelas
03-21-2008, 03:35 PM
...

No, ebs. Just... no.

In a minute with a 1.6 weapon, you can maximum use Heroic Strike 37 times. This means, at maximum, IHS = 37 RPM per point. It's less if it's a slower weapon.

Anger Management is 1 rage every 3 seconds, thus 20 RPM... if you are not capped.

EDIT: And apparently I fail at reading. -_-

byechee
03-21-2008, 03:53 PM
do i feel silly that i didn't waste 3 points in imp HS? no, i sure don't.

ebs2002
03-24-2008, 10:38 AM
Yes Norrath, you do fail at reading :-p I said 1.8 speed weapon (which is what I have since I'm an orc), and I said that 3/3 Imp HS is 100RPM with 100% HS usage, or 66 RPM with 66% uptime, or 50RPM with 50% uptime.

I never implied you should feel silly for not having 3 points in Imp HS, just that I prefer spending my 3points in Imp HS over Imp Defensive Stance. If I went IDS, maybe my healers would love me a little more for the damage I take in Kara/ZA, but my DPS would hate me more for being threat-capped. In my guild, the 60-100 RPM from Imp HS outweighs the 1% less damage I take on a boss (assuming 1/6th of a bosses DPS is spell related, which sounds about right for everything I'm fighting).

If I were tanking Flames in a T6 guild, or Hydross without capped resists or something, I'd switch. But it just doesn't fit right now.