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Signu
03-11-2008, 06:46 AM
I got myself to thinking about how to be completely different and actually spec to do some DW Devastate spamming. I realize this is not going to be as much DPS as Fury or Arms, but I thought it would be neat to test. I have yet to test this though.

The idea for the following 2 builds is that you will have 9 rage HS and Dev combo'd with Impale.

DW Devastate for DPS and good threat/bad mitigation OT
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czhbZcZfxtcIoz0xct)

DW Devastate for Less DPS, but MT capable.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czhbZZbEtoI0zcxst)

This build would probably be the most DPS, but you lose the 9 rage HS and Impale in favor of DW Spec. Would be really bad at tanking anything.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVV0VxZfxtcIoz0xct)

Has anyone played with these types of builds before? Is anyone willing to run the numbers of the 3 builds (or any DW Devastate DPS build)? I work fulltime, have 2 kids, and raid 2 nights a week, so I am very limited on what extra "play" time I have. I may have to resort to waking up early this weekend to give it a try.

Methadone
03-11-2008, 07:17 AM
A fury warrior went devestate dps (impale/devestate missing alot out of the pure tanking talents) for Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama. His DPS was pretty decent but I didn't save any numbers.

His was threat capped quite badly I remember though.

Shortypop
03-11-2008, 08:03 AM
Dont have any numbers but surely a build like:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVV0VxZbEtoI0z0xst)

would be better than the 0/20/41 build you've suggested. Imp disarm, imp revenge and tactical mastery arent really increasing your dps, whereas shield spec, shield slam and imp shield block would make a much stronger tank.

Sevenodd
03-11-2008, 08:14 AM
The 0/20/41 build is the spec i run with. Actually i find it to be a good OT build. I have successfully main and off tanked most of kara with it. (I haven't seen all of kara yet ... time/schedule isssues). Off tanked Grulls. and tanked the first 2 bosses of ZA (our guild still learning ZA)

I do have plans to eventually switch to a full raid build eventually, but at the stage I'm at this is the best for me, i am still grinding out a lot of quests(for the $$) and farming for my epic flyer.

Find it very easy to generate rage with this build as an off tank. For those fights wear the OT needs to be 2nd on threat this build is awesome. I dual wield with a set of fist weapons in defensive stance. Actually have to throttle the damage back a bit or I would past the MT in threat. Then i switch to sword and board when i need to hold the mob in the fight. Dual wield devastate spam FTW!

I have had several comments from raid leaders and other main tanks on how well i can generate and hold aggro (kara tanking in blues). So I don't believe the build is inherently a 'bad' tanking build, obviously not the best main tank build, but a solid off tank build that allows for main tanking. I quite often see my TPS holding at 700+ when main tanking with my current gear.

I find that i don't miss the improved HS, for the most part i can't dump rage fast enough anyway. Multiple mob is a little harder with out improved TC, but still easily doable. Nor do i miss the extra parry.

So depending on the role you play in your guild and what stage of the game you are at, this is a very viable build. I've tried many others but always come back to this one. Love the rage!, :)

For my Spec:
Armory: Sevenodd on Norgannon

bosephus
03-11-2008, 10:11 PM
In this recent thread of the WoW forums there's a lot of anecdotal information about doing massive damage as a dual wielding prot-spec warrior, as well as build and rotation instruction.


WoW Forums -> 1433 DPS on Anetheron as Prot! (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=3547595824&sid=1&pageNo=1)


I think the 41 points in Protection that Lelaine suggests do not miss any of the core defensive talents so that you will be capable of tanking any other content. It does lose some rage efficiency, but this is partially balanced by Anger Management. I used this spec for a while and then moved away and then returned to it. It works well for me.


As to whether it is better or worse than the 0/20/41 build, I think you nailed it in the original post: 17/3/41 is better at actual tanking. 0/20/41 may potentially be better in dual wield devastating, but the comparison is the following:

1. the added AP from the 25% bonus to your Battle Shout (about 75AP, if I recall)
2. the 25% increase in off-hand damage
3. the additional 2% chance to critical strike

versus

1. 20% increase in crits
2. the Deep Wounds 60% of weapon damage bleed effect.


I would think the 20/41 would be better... but effectiveness will depend upon your gear selection (slow versus fast?). I would like to see the math on the damage output of this difference. It just seems that there would be so many variables depending upon gear and rage availability to be able to test it properly.


As with everything about a warrior, gear makes a serious difference.


Finally, I think it will be interesting when another 10 talent points are available in the next expansion. Barring another reshuffling of the talent trees, Flurry will be available with Devastate. Then you'll see some serious DW Prot DPS.

Xav
03-11-2008, 11:38 PM
Woah, those are some pretty bad specs. Anyway; Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czhbZcZoEtoI0zzxst) is by far the best hybrid spec, and gives you very acceptable mitigation while still having the basic DPS talents. You can put out respectable (ie not a deadweight spot) DPS as Prot utilizing DW devastate spam. It also scales far better in the high end as gear gets better, DW devastate spam scales better than any other type of damage spec/class in the game currently, I believe. If there was a theoretical "tier 8" out right now I bet Devastate would be the highest DPS spec :)

Math and spreadsheets can figure it out, but it's just what I'd guess off of the massive stat multipliers + an instant attack based off of weapon damage and not a static amount, every 1.5 seconds.

Signu
03-12-2008, 06:28 AM
Woah, those are some pretty bad specs.

They are bad specs for tanking. I don't really care about tanking. If you read my post, you would realize I am just looking at maximizing DW Devastate DPS. Since I'd never be carrying a shield, I have no use for Shield Mastery or Shield Slam. I'm not saying I do need Imp Revenge or Imp Disarm, but they would be more useful since I picked Tactical Mastery.

Calve
03-12-2008, 08:55 AM
... If you read my post, you would realize I am just looking at maximizing DW Devastate DPS. Since I'd never be carrying a shield, I have no use for Shield Mastery or Shield Slam. ....

I guess I'd have to ask,


Why?

Kazeyonoma
03-12-2008, 09:08 AM
he's trying to test to see if devastate dps is worthwhile is all.

Signu
03-12-2008, 03:12 PM
he's trying to test to see if devastate dps is worthwhile is all.

Exactly. In the off chance that I would have to tank, I should at least be able to keep reasonable threat even if I am taking unreasonable amounts of damage.


I guess I'd have to ask,


Why?

I would be DW all the time and shouldn't need SS for threat.

Sidousai
03-22-2008, 04:30 AM
Tanking... dw .....
you're talking about raid trash mobs and 5 men instances, right?

Right???

Sidousai
Last Stand!
Shield Wall!

Signu
03-26-2008, 07:22 AM
Tanking... dw .....
you're talking about raid trash mobs and 5 men instances, right?

Right???

Sidousai
Last Stand!
Shield Wall!

I'm talking about DPSing, not tanking. Pretend I'm a Fury warrior, basically.

MasterWolf
03-26-2008, 08:04 AM
1K DPS possible...
http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/general-discussion/36074-1k-dps-protection.html

Taelas
03-27-2008, 07:41 AM
The main problem with this is threat.

MasterWolf
03-27-2008, 07:51 AM
Holy. Crap.

I would like to thank you guys for introducing me to this way of doing damage. No longer must I produce 200DPS on fights where I'm not MTing!!

tamral
03-27-2008, 11:32 AM
I'm talking about DPSing, not tanking. Pretend I'm a Fury warrior, basically.

Your logic is seriously flawed here.

Take for example, this output of about 1100 DPS on gorefiend this week (had an enhance shammy), and 1000 last week (no enhance shammy, just my own battle shout):

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/tjor2255za3e5?s=16959-17202)

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/11oy3sjpjysw3?s=2987-3214)

Note that I am not 17/3/41 or 0/20/41, but rather 11/5/45 (tanking spec).

Ok, so letís see, which gives more DPS.

25% more AP from battle shout = 75 more AP.
2% crit
25% more offhand damage.

OR

20% more damage from crits.
Deep Wounds effects.


Letís take the 0/20/41 first.

Straight Damage Effects:
Well, from having to use 2 more rage per HS, the # of HSís I can do are reduced by 6.4% (4) (reduced 6.4% instead of 18.8% (12 vs 10 rage) because I would gain 12.4% back due to additional rage generated by mainhand swings and extra offhand damage Ė rage loss from not having anger management), so I lose 4500 yellow damage and gain 3100 white damage.
My offhand hit 108 times, critting on 34 swings, and glancing on 17 for a total of 31,978 damage, which would be increased by 25% or by about 8100.
So my new raw damage increases by 6700 to about 249,000
Since I have 5 ranks of cruelty, the 2% crit doesnít do anything else for me. So 0/20/41 is about 3% more DPS than 11/5/45


17/3/41

The crit debuff would be up literally at all times (the odds of 8 consecutive devastates + 2-3 HS not critting in a given 12 second period is mind bogglingly low, even with 31% buffed crit as opposed to 33%), meaning a bleed effect for 60% of around 775 or about 460 damage/12 would be on at all times. Considering the length of combat (4 minutes), with 5 stacks per minute, thatís 20 full stacks of the debuff that would tick, or roughly 9,000 additional damage.

I would have 2% less criticals, meaning my raw damage would decrease by (1+new crit rate)/(1 + old crit rate) or (1.32/1.34) * 242,000 = 237,000.

My yellow crits consisted of:
84,000 damage worth of crits, which would be reduced by (32/34) or down to 79000 damage (5000 loss in yellow crits, 2500 gain in yellow non crits), but then multiplied by 1.2 or roughly 95000.

I gain 9000 in bleed damage. I lose 5000 total damage from loss of crits and conversion of crits into white hits, Iím not even going to bother to add in the added effect of 1 less rage in HS, and I gain about 11,000 yellow crit damage. Total increase is more than 15k damage to around 257,000, AND I donít lose nearly as much off tanking viability.

bagelbite
04-01-2008, 09:20 AM
tamral, your analysis of deep wounds is off.

We must not forget that deep wounds must first tick before it does damage. If deep wounds is on the target, and you crit again, it will refresh the deep wounds and reset the time until it ticks. This prevents it from doing damage. A prot war spamming dev and ww fires a lot of attacks per tick, making the chances high that a crit will refresh it before it can tick.

You could goto blasted lands and spam devastate and ww while recording the combat log for wws analysis, or use a mod like recount etc... You will find deep wounds only adds around 1% dps do to the constant refreshing. However, if you have deep wounds in an encounter where you do not get to stick on the target 100% of the time, deep wounds will add a bit more % of dps since you stop attacking(to run away or w/e) and the debuf will probably get to tick a few times.

enderwiggin
04-11-2008, 04:08 AM
Yeah i had heard about the devastate spec and thought it sounded interesting. So since my buddy wanted to mt nb i tried it there...and found myself threat capped so i got a pally to switch me to salv from kings mid fight and went back to it...not overly impressed..we wiped for whatever reason...i think old nb feared a healer of ours directly thru his breath and charred earth...fun for all.. i respecced fury and owned.

I have found that duelwield devastating is good in battlegrounds..and by battlegrounds i mean NOT arena.

Mostly I think it works cause people are just used to a certain kind of warrior and then all of a sudden they are down 2600 armor with a mad man spamming heroic strike and devastate(with executioner on kings d and mongoose on decapitator) on them and not missing often (i am running 93 or so hit rating while doing this). So they go ahead and call for a heal or start their own heal and they get conc blowed war stomeped pummeled and feareed..and just incase they get close...i can last stand a heal unnaffected by healing debuffs. It is also very signifigant since my ass showed up with 13k+ health and more rage efficiency than most are used to.

this sequence seems to work on melee enemies
intercept
concblow
warstomp
disarm

throw a nice mix of devastate and h strike in there and they are too far behind by the time they get to swing

Am i the best thing pvp has ever seen..without a doubt no. But i am having fun grinding honor and that is a little more important.

enderwiggin
04-12-2008, 02:06 AM
Ok went thru kara again today and since my gilds other tank capable of tanking didn't ahve good dps set i did the duel weild devastate thing

i pulled aggro with BoK on and had to be salved
I got about .9k dps out put in the gear i am wearing in armory right now and the talent set you can see in the armory.

on shade i put out 1k dps. on curator pulled aggro and had to equip a shield and kings d in the main and wait for my tank to re-aquire.

whether my tank was putting out good threat or not is unknown...omen showed .6k tps on his part. I told him at some point that "There was no way i should make more threat than him if i am fury stance"..since my thoughts were that he is devastating and heroic striking+ ss i should be far behind but i am not entirely sure that is true.

On a boss with what i would call a secondary target that target is usually gonna be the prot warrior who is dps ing from fury stance. Since the afore mentioned warrior is gonna have the rage he is gonna be able to just go fullout.

On Shade
My dps was 100short of a shaman (porquando, enhance ment and in better dps gear and sockets than I). Shade is kind of an oddity of a fight everybody has to take dps breaks here and there. So i am not entirely certain it is a good measure.

Here are my questions about further development of the spec.

Isn't it just a way for a prot tank to dps provided he finds enough dps gear on his march thru pvp and istances? If you were to seriously get into trying to duelwield devastate you might try duel weild spec...but then you would drop imp heroic strike(kind of throws your rage effeciency out the window) and you might drop your 5% to parry for unbridled wrath. I just can't think of a good reason to do any of these things. just go prot (what ever spec you like for maintanking) and bring your gear for dw dev dpsing.

how much of an increase in dps out put are you really gonna see from throwing a perfectly good MT spec in the crapper?

if 3% is it...i say stay with tank spec and have fun when you can

MichaelRo
04-18-2008, 08:56 AM
Well I did full kara as prot dps with smthing like 8/11/43 (was haveing piercing howl cos is nice for various things ).
My dps was quite nice while the gear was not great.

I did 20% of raid dps at nightbane or better.

As for best dps spec I do not know if it is 0/20/41 or 17/3/41.
You can also use 3 in off-hand spec and 2 in improved execute for 0/20/41.
Also for execute part of the battle switch to 2 fast 1 handers.
Till than keep slow main hand fast off-hand.

I never saw anyone here to realize that 1 hander spec is actually uber for execute part of the battle .

Kream
04-21-2008, 10:18 AM
Also for execute part of the battle switch to 2 fast 1 handers.
Till than keep slow main hand fast off-hand.


Slow/Slow for regular DPS.
Fast/Slow for execute range (if your mainhand misses or glances, a slow offhand can drive enough rage for an execute, where a fast offhand can't)

Avarice
04-25-2008, 11:44 PM
1518 on last Teron (http://wowwebstats.com/m6g46rpaldyfu?s=4433-4609&a=17#summary)

Beat the shadowpriests, that's good enough for me! :D

Standard-ish 11/5/45 tanking spec, not a dps hybrid. Obviously, I'm in good equipment, other than some high demand areas such as cloak and trinkets. I'm sure the virtues of each stat have been chronicled here-- like many others I favor strength and armor pen. Base swings were only 32% of my damage for this fight, (though it's more in fights where there isn't much damage taken) so hit rating beyond the yellow cap is not all that good.

More is possible with the same gear/spec, I wasn't following any actual cycle, just spamming whatever. Prot dps is still out of place for new encounters, but it's potent enough that you don't feel -totaly- worthless.

edit: Threat wasn't even close to a problem, and I didn't have salv. Not sure why you guys are having those kinds of issues in raid boss fights. The only place I ever pull aggro is during reck exe on phase 3 RoS, usually 1 second before it dies =(

mictavis
05-05-2008, 09:58 AM
I can put out 900+ dps in 25 man raids with 12/5/44 spec and DPS gear and no windfury. I have about 1900 AP, 28%, and 148 hit unbuffed. I spam devastate, whirlwind every cooldown and heroic strike when enough rage is there. Im usually logged out in DPS gear (for farming, dailies, etc) The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drenden&n=Mictavis)

Dragaan
05-09-2008, 04:23 PM
I don't know how effective a hybrid devastate spec would be compared to standard dps specs, but you CAN dish out some serious damage in prot spec w/ devastate spam. I have mostly badge gear, some crafted, and 2 pieces of bt gear and I put out over 1k dps all the time w/o WF or lotp. The other night I got to DPS on teron gorefiend WITH windfury (still no lotp), and I put out close to 1500dps w/o really trying.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/ntbzhd15abpso?s=9970-10178)

With Lotp and WF and some better dps gear, I'm sure i could get close to 2k on that fight.

Edit: I'm in fury spec atm and probably logged out in my dps gear if anyone cares.

p.s. My gearing strat - Pretend ur an Arms warrior in terms of hit, and push Strength over all else (once ur at 9% hit). Also, if you don't use the expertise trink from Magister's u FAIL. =P

Indris
05-10-2008, 04:07 PM
Devastate DPS can be pretty high (I've seen myself reaching ~1500 dps on Rage & Anetheron as normal prot spec with my dps gear mostly gemmed with crit/str as opposed to raw str that would surely work better), but it won't ever be competitive on most encounters simply due to threat issues. I can imagine it could actually surpass typical fury specs in some scenarios perhaps, if we're talking a warglaive mainhand or something, with everything socketed for straight str and such. Can't say I'm too excited about testing it though, since I can't really picture it being useful in a raid situation.

w0rstn4m33v3r
05-15-2008, 06:26 AM
another great thing I found out about devastate a few days ago, if your MH gets disarmed you will still be able to use devastate with your offhand

Kavel
05-21-2008, 08:13 AM
Here's a WWS of a Kaz'Rogal kill that should be available another week or so.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/fh6bceosc15wy?s=4978-5224)

I think it's a fairly realistic expectation of a baseline DPS you can expect from a DW Devastate setup in a standard setting (i.e. without rearranging groups to favor your DPS). I stayed in the MT group, didn't have windfury, bloodlusts, etc. I've seen higher numbers for sure, but this is an example of what you can see without catering your raid around pumping up your DPS. It's not quite druid numbers, but it's solid IMO.

Archfiend
06-05-2008, 06:01 PM
My opinion about Prot dps is that you shouldn't do it if you want to be a high-end dps warrior... not because it isn't necessarily possible, but because you have unique access to a lot of talents which would be useful to your raid as an off-tank, and miss out on a lot of talents which would be useful to your raid as pure dps.

With the right gear and party composition, you can produce acceptible numbers - it's really not even difficult. The key difference between prot and, say fury, is that you'll always be in danger of overtaking the main tank - a fury warrior gets a nice threat reduction that will help keep him under acceptible levels.

The other thing that's noticeable about prot dps is that it's so easy to get some really nice tanking talents, and without losing very much in the trade, that it doesn't make much sense to not take those talents. Let's say you have no desire to carry a shield whatsoever, and for that reason, you can justify skipping shield slam. Fair enough. But you want to go deep enough into the tree to get devastate anyway... so what else could you possibly spend that point on instead of shield slam that would be better? There's not a whole lot. Even if you only plan to use it once in a blue moon, simply having access to the ability gives you more versatility at the cost of... what, maybe 1% crit? Take the slight hit to your dps to be able to save the day by slapping that shield on... or surprise your opponents in a battleground by wearing a shield for a minute and knocking a few debuffs off while you're devastate spamming.

I wish I had some hard numbers to display, but what I've learned over the past year and a half of BC tanking is that if you have the skills to produce threat, then you've got the skills to produce dps - for a warrior, the story is the same as day 1, it's all about the gear. You can do nearly as well in a full prot spec as you can in a full dps spec, as long as your gear selection reflects your mentality.

chuglur
06-05-2008, 09:35 PM
Here is my parse of dps which I would say is more than just acceptable, even competitive with pure dps Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/cduc5iteq4hli?s=169472-183146), a well geared Protection specced off-tank does arguably more dps than a equally geared feral druid. The only reason to tank a feral over another protection warrio at this point is for multi-mob tanking which if you are a sunwell guild, you should have a paladin tank anyhow.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LZVf0VxZ0EtoIMzcgsz) is the spec which arguably has all the components an off tank would need. There is no parry but he is not the main tank and the 5% shouldn't kill him on any off tanking fights.

Finally about threat, the modifier for beserker stance is .8 and salvation is .7 so .8*.7=.56 which a fury warrior get 10 additional threat off from imp berserker stance which is .8*.9*.7=.504 so the threat difference between a fury warrior and a protection dps warrior is only 5.6% which is completely negligible.

I would argue that a protection dps warrior brings more utility than a fury warrior since they can tank better and provide the synergy fury warrior do namely imp battle shout.

Fortriu
06-05-2008, 10:46 PM
I was persuaded by a paladin tank friend to come along and dps for H Sethekk, and he insisted that I not bother to respec from my current 12/5/44 build for just a single run.

I'm geared well for T5 prot but my dps gear at present is only really at entry level for Kara - ragesteel shoulders & gloves, Helm of Second Sight, other blues - with the exception of my Warbringer legs. I use the crafted BS sword and the season 1 axe as offhand. Not exactly ideal, and I'm working on it as the guild may ask me to run as fury sometimes - but even at this level I ended up 2nd on damage below a geared destro/demon lock.

I found DW Devastate overall to be a lot of fun, putting out decent damage but offering more survivability than Fury, especially in a hellish instance like Sethekk. I could also throw on a shield and offtank to protect clothies during situations such as the fears where we occasionally became quite spread out.

Archfiend
06-06-2008, 11:29 AM
Finally about threat, the modifier for beserker stance is .8 and salvation is .7 so .8*.7=.56 which a fury warrior get 10 additional threat off from imp berserker stance which is .8*.9*.7=.504 so the threat difference between a fury warrior and a protection dps warrior is only 5.6% which is completely negligible.

Be that as it may, the prot warrior dpsing his heart out will substantially out-threaten the fury warrior because of devastate spam. A good tank fighting a raid boss should be able to stay ahead of you, but in most other situations, a prot warrior dual-wielding will have to watch himself much more closely than equal dps arms or fury warriors.

chuglur
06-06-2008, 11:46 AM
A 5 sundered devastate is 176 innate threat which adds (innate threat + damage dealt) * stance modifier * buff modifiers, (176/1.5+0)*.8*.7=65.71 TPS assuming you use it every GCD.

You would have 2200*.56+65.71=1297.71 TPS from the tank which is easily attainable at the assumed gear level for 2200 dps. A fury warrior would have 2200*.504=1108.8. It comes down to a 17% difference in TPS required to sustain threat at the t6+ level.

However as we go lower to the t4-t5 level at 1000 dps. Threat becomes 625.71 TPS required for a prot warrior dpsing and 504 for a fury warrior which is a 24% difference.

In heroics a tank should be about to sustain 700 tps and without substantial group buffs, prot warriors would be doing less than 1k dps which would be a cause of concern, but most other classes also do less than or around 1k dps. In most pug heroics lately the standard has been 600 dps=awesome?

In conclusion, Prot dps warriors are as viable as any fury warrior in any setting so far in the game considering the threat producing capacities of a tank and the threat generation mechanics of the prot-dps warrior.