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Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 02:36 PM
Bornakk: The next question is: do we plan to have tanking specs get more integrated into PvP? For example, like a new Taunt mechanic?

Tom Chilton: Well, yes and no. To a degree, we definitely want to improve the viability of the tanking specs in PvP. But I only mean that with respects to casual PvP, like battlegrounds. We don't actually have realistic plans to try to make the tanking specs be Arena-competitive, viable specs, necessarily. We feel like it's okay if there are certain specs that really aren't competitive end-game specs. At the same time, we do want to make sure that when you roll into a battleground, that you feel reasonably useful. We don't want you to have to respec every time you go to a battleground or whatever. To some degree, we have that, in that prot warriors, for example, are pretty popular for running the flag in Warsong Gulch. They also can be pretty useful for defending different points of interest, either in Arathi Basin or even in, potentially, Eye of the Storm.

So, we have it to some degree, but we do want to moderate those differences more than we have right now and make them a little bit more viable for PvP than they are but I don't think that the expectation should be that you'll be able to be a high-end, Arena- competitive player.View Full Blizzcast Transcript Here. (http://us.blizzard.com/blizzcast/archive/episode2.xml)


Blizzard,

The Protection Warrior is close. That is, the Protection Warrior is close to being substantially more viable and more enjoyable in PVP than it currently is. No fundamental design changes are necessary.

I'm at least partly responsible for the number of players who want Protection PVP to be viable. I've shown mathematically, in testing, and in Battlegrounds PVP that the damage potential exists. However, I actively advise Warriors to respec Arms if they want to PVP.

The reason is realistically obtainable gear. My gear is mixed between T3 and T6 for maximizing my damage output. Reaching the highest damage potential for a Protection Warrior is literally impossible unless a player raids both Naxxramas and Black Temple.

Armstrong <Elysium>, Burning Legion US, completed a mock-up (http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/theory-articles/35781-prot-pvp-gear-we-ve-been-wishing.html) of what would happen if Strength on the Season 3 Arena set were converted directly to Shield Block Value. His conclusion was that, with a full set of gear, a Protection Warrior would gain:
1054 Shield Block Value (Includes Shield Mastery)
60 Hit Rating
31% Crit (Battle Stance)
469 Armor Penetration
384 Resilience
13154 Health (Human)That set of gear is not overpowered. It does not imbalance PVE content. It would not replace PVE-acquired tanking gear. It would not give Protection competitiveness in the top bracket of Arenas. The above gear would have limited auto-attack and Whirlwind damage output but would have respectable burst damage from crits. Here are examples, without factoring damage reduction from Resilience:
With no additional buffs, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,306 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 2,612 damage.
With Deathwish and Impale, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,567 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 3,448 damage.
With Deathwish and Impale, and with Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 activated, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,842 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 4,052 damage.Warriors remain the only multi-purpose class without multiple PVP sets. Druids, Paladins and Shaman each have three sets; Priests and Warlocks have two. The Blizzcast comments are concerning because they suggest Blizzard believes Protection Warriors are popular in PVP as a result of token PVE; however, when I queue for PVP, I do it to compete with players, not just to run flags or tank NPCs. A Protection oriented PVP set would give other Warriors the same opportunity I have.

Protection already has a unique PVP playstyle. Protection isn't simply Arms-lite, nor is it broken: with gear, it's a caster-killer. The Shield Slam dispel occurs before damage is calculated, often leaving shielded casters to bear the full force of the attack. The availability of Tactical Mastery (allowing more efficient Spell Reflects), Concussion Blow and Improved Shield Bash add to our anti-caster utility. Finally, the way our damage is weighted over time -- heavily reliant on burst from Shield Slam -- is ideal for casters with whom we only get briefly in range of.

Last September, I requested that Shield Slam be moved to a 100% dispel. The second part of that request was Protection PVP gear. One is not effective without the other.

Please consider a Protection Warrior PVP set.

-Ciderhelm

Link
03-04-2008, 03:08 PM
Wow, they are so close to getting it right! :)

Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 03:09 PM
rofl. Hold on, typing it!

Gehn
03-04-2008, 03:35 PM
I agree with all sentiments in this thread =)

Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Edited in.

torand
03-04-2008, 03:46 PM
/signed

Is this on the Blizzard Forums somewhere?

Also, I wish we could have stayed there, but after going 9-0 for the week:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/Torandarko123/WoWScrnShot_112107_013114.jpg

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/team-info.xml?r=Uther&ts=2&t=Protection+Warriors&select=Protection+Warriors)

Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Not yet on the WoW forums, I want to add a bit of damage math to the post first.

torand
03-04-2008, 03:55 PM
Yeah, let us know when you get it there if you would. I really want to add some comments to it. I was so disappointed when I saw Tom Chitlon's response, because all they need to do is make a Prot PVP set. Currently we beat almost every double DPS team, and can typically beat any Healer/Melee DPS team if the healer is not a druid :(.

If we had some real Damage output, we could start beating caster teams; although druid would still be pretty fatal I would think.

Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 04:16 PM
Added a few numbers on potential SS damage to the original post.

Ukyo
03-04-2008, 04:30 PM
/signed

i want my prot pvp gear, i'm tired of running with S2/S3 and pretty much nothing of block value =/

Meia
03-04-2008, 04:34 PM
I'd have to agree here. (of course, why wouldn't I agree for anything that would make prot warriors more viable and enjoyable to play!)

Anyway, those shield slams are a bit over powered, but you wouldn't want to sacrifice all of that strength anyway, normal attacks do deal a significant amount of damage in arena's, and without AP, our overpower's would be a little bit gimped. Even converting half the strength to SBV would do the trick, a well balanced PVP set really would make prot pvp fairly viable.

Armstrong
03-04-2008, 05:23 PM
With Shield Mastery, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20&#37; Damage Reduction for 1,584 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 3,185 damage.
With Shield Mastery, Deathwish and Impale, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 1,901 damage. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 4,204 damage.
With Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600, Shield Mastery, Deathwish and Impale, Shield Slam would hit a target with 20% Damage Reduction for 2,175. Shield Slam would crit the same target for 4,809 damage.


I may be missing something in your damage math but I thought I should reiterate that the 1054 SBV figure already included 3/3 Shield Mastery.



So the math for a normal SS would be:

(((420+440) &#247; 2) + 1054) &#215; 1.1 &#215; 0.8 = 1306, 2612 crit.

&#215; 1.1 being 5/5 1H Spec, &#215; 0.8 being the 20% damage reduction.



Normal hit with Death Wish active: 1567. 2/2 Impale crit: 3448.

Normal hit with Death Wish and Trinket active: 1842. 2/2 Impale crit: 4052.



Nice post btw. :)



Edit: You may want to add that such a set would not replace traditional tank gear used in PvE. That sort of factor matters quite a bit to the people at Blizzard who oversee character progression from a standpoint of players having to "put in the time" to achieve certain goals (i.e. keep those monthly payments coming).

Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 05:24 PM
Yeah.... I factored it assuming SM wasn't included. :p Thanks!

Siona
03-04-2008, 09:43 PM
I posted something to this effect on the Blizzard forums a few days ago actually, but without the math. Needless to say, I got told to "spec arms nub" and other words to that effect. I completely agree that giving us a set focused around shield block value from the arena would absolutely not be a viable PvE tanking set compared to gear attainable from PvE, and would go a long way towards making us at least able to have fun in PvP. Because that's really what this game is all about isn't it?

Domichi
03-05-2008, 06:36 AM
I sure hope Blizz takes this into serious consideration. You have my support :)

Nuberino
03-05-2008, 08:08 AM
I have resigned myself to not a dps class in PVP, but in all the battlegrounds I find that I have some very clear uses that I can compete with other classes favorably.

I find that in full tank gear:

I have no problem running flags

I have no problem guarding positions (easy to hold off a small offensive alone until reinforcements arrive)

I can push the opposing line backwards, they can rarely knock me off my mount (not even sure what abilities do it since it is so rare) and I can make an entire defense run after me trying to burn me down.

What I bring to the battleground is strong survivability and I use that to my advantage - I have entirely stopped switching into my dps/pvp set as my tank set really plays on my strengths in battlegrounds. I can still be useful when it comes to the thick of it, hamstring, rend (rogues), concussion blow, shield bash etc. Most 1v1's I will get trashed, but it makes me smile when the opposing team starts to focus fire on me while my team can start mowing through their clothies.

Arenas are really the one aspect of pvp that I think prot warriors just fall flat. And the changes that Cider has suggested would at least bring some moderate usefullness to us. I would love to see us at least viable for arenas and it would give us more of a dps role in battlegrounds -- though I really think from a battleground perspective prot warriors already fill in some very useful roles.

ebs2002
03-05-2008, 08:33 AM
The only thing I'm worried about with those figures is that, with such a high Shield Block Value, we'd be pretty impenetrable from a melee standpoint. Many hits would be blocked altogether.

As it is now, when I'm wearing a high SBV set in BGs, I'm impenetrable by blockable damage but spells can mow me down. This is because SBV vs Resilience is a trade-off I have to make.

I'm worried that high resilience and high block value may OP protection warriors a bit :(

Heartwood
03-05-2008, 08:56 AM
I know I miss out on a large and fun part of the game by not PvP'ing. As a Prot Warrior with above average gear I've tried some 2v2 and noticed the difficulty in competing as Prot spec. C'est le vie. But I would be interested in getting onto an even-footing with other classes/specs to give PvP another try.

-Heartwood

Bigstik
03-05-2008, 10:24 AM
My plan, as of yet, is to buy the blue PvP gear from rep vendors in 2.4 and... socket it for crit, sigh.
I also had a question about prot PvP. As shield slam's crit rate functions off your main hand crit rate, does Axe Specialization affect shield slam's crit rate?

Berginyon
03-05-2008, 11:55 AM
It would be cool if taunt forced a target change. It would be useful in disrupting focus-fire in pvp. Imagine if you could taunt an ememy healer and if they were paying attention, they would heal you :-)

brain9h
03-05-2008, 12:19 PM
good job cider.

Nuberino
03-05-2008, 12:35 PM
Thinking on it, I agree with Ebs on this. With those stats, you are outputting decent damage, nearly invulnerable to melee damage and have really good resilience. Shield block value is too powerful of a stat in pvp to have in such large numbers coupled with other common pvp stats (crit and resilience).

Ciderhelm
03-05-2008, 12:54 PM
Thinking on it, I agree with Ebs on this. With those stats, you are outputting decent damage, nearly invulnerable to melee damage and have really good resilience. Shield block value is too powerful of a stat in pvp to have in such large numbers coupled with other common pvp stats (crit and resilience).

"Nearly invulnerable to melee damage" is simply not correct. Shield Block is not an effective ability in PVP.

Shield Block requires you a) not be incapacitated/stunned/feared/etc and b) facing your target. More importantly than either, it requires you spend Rage on a damage reduction ability, which is already tight.

To be effective in player vs. player combat, you don't run around trying to tank players. If you spend all of your rage on reducing damage incoming, you get destroyed. The only place it works is 1v1 on Warriors or Feral Druids, and occasionally on Rogues, but the moment you have two players on you, you can't just shift around and get them all in front of you like PVE.

With the exception of Crit, my set of gear is substantially stronger than the example given. My gear has large amounts of Defense/Avoidance/Block Rating. Being "near invulnerable" to Melee classes is something that hasn't happened. Nor is my limited damage output good to waste on Melee.


The argument was also made in Armstrong's thread that this set might be overpowered in PVE. It would not be. Again, I have a stronger set of gear than the example given, and I can do some neat tricks with it, but nothing remotely gamebreaking.

ebs2002
03-05-2008, 01:43 PM
I guess it depends on what your block rating would be. Normally my block rating is through the roof because I'm wearing PvE block-value gear which, at my gear level at least, gives a high block rating as it is.

I don't spam shield block in pvp, but I still own similarly-geared melee classes (I think my block rating + miss + dodge + parry is around 65&#37;). Couple that with high armor and Imp Demo Shout 2/5, and rogues and MS warriors barely touch me. The sword-spec rogue was complaining that most of his crits were doing under 300, and his non-crits were largely fully blocked. This was me wearing T4 block-value gear with 3 or 4 pieces of Arena (S1 hat/shoulders/gloves, S3 bracer) already, too. YMMV, though.

Ciderhelm
03-05-2008, 02:04 PM
You're talking about 1v1, though. Protection is already the strongest anti-Arms spec, and the most consistent anti-Rogue spec. I am as guaranteed of a win against an MS Warrior as a good Frost Mage is.

In live PVP, the advantage of SBV is greatly diminished for the reasons I outlined, unless you specifically look for 1v1 situations that you'd have won without a gear change.

Nuberino
03-05-2008, 03:05 PM
I just don't see how you would expect Blizzard to implement changes that would allow for high survivability (having a huge block value and a huge resilience) and high (burst) dps.

Would I like that to happen? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening, at least not in those numbers.

Kazeyonoma
03-05-2008, 03:23 PM
you're block rating would be terrible because pvp gear has no block rating, and that change isn't being asked to be put in, merely a str->sbv conversion.

this would be fun though. especially berg's suggestion haha, Taunt, Crit Heal! YAY!

Ciderhelm
03-05-2008, 03:28 PM
I just don't see how you would expect Blizzard to implement changes that would allow for high survivability (having a huge block value and a huge resilience) and high (burst) dps.

Would I like that to happen? Absolutely, but I don't see that happening, at least not in those numbers.

The S3 Arena set has a lot of Resilience... but so does every other S3 Arena set. Even the ones with high burst dps. :)

There's zero circumstance in live PVP where damage reduction from Shield Block Value has a significant impact on the outcome of a battle. It only matters in duels. It only works on classes that Warriors are already going to come out successful, regardless of spec.

My gear is superior in every regard but Crit; I already know how this plays out. I've been in every PVP situation outside of serious Arenas. I already know that using Shield Block is one of the best ways to waste your rage, your potential, and your purpose in group PVP. The dependencies of Shield Block are brutal, and no Arms Warrior or Rogue is ever going to voluntarily attack you and decide to face you while doing it.

High survivability? No more than any Arms Warrior, not in this gear.

Nuberino
03-05-2008, 03:36 PM
You will have higher survivability than an arms warrior (+6k more armor not counting shield block which with that high of a block value would be worth the rage when against a melee target) and good enough burst damage to kill casters and melee alike. I guess I just don't see that happening.

Ciderhelm
03-05-2008, 03:46 PM
not counting shield block which with that high of a block value

You've said this three times now but haven't even bothered to defend why this would work in group PVP. It doesn't. Period.

Arms Warriors have Iron Will, Second Wind and Mace Specialization. They can have Improved Demo, Piercing Howl, and Blood Craze, none of which can fit into a Protection PVP build. In PVP, these things matter a whole lot more than Armor from a shield that they, too, can equip, or a set of PVE-oriented defensive talents.

Nuberino
03-05-2008, 03:48 PM
You've said this three times now but haven't even bothered to defend why this would work in group PVP. It doesn't. Period.
Outside of the arena, I have no issues using shield block for decent effect when I am up against melee opponents. I guess I just disagree with you completely disregarding it.

I still don't see why they would give prot warriors high burst damage. We have a unique playstyle in battlegrounds and it is obvious they don't want us to be competitve in arenas.

Ciderhelm
03-05-2008, 04:06 PM
Outside of the arena, I have no issues using shield block for decent effect when I am up against melee opponents.

Right. When you're against Melee opponents. In 1v1 situations you can make use of it. Against smart players, you won't have a chance to make use of it in 2v1 or 2v2 situations, because one of them can stay behind you or one of them can stun/incapacitate you. In any case, making use of it requires them to already be attacking you, which smart players won't do until you're the last one standing. There is not an unlimited Rage pool to work with.

Your argument is that Warriors would be overpowered because they'd be able to take on Rogues and Arms Warriors.

The counter to that is two fold:
1) They already can.
2) Protection Warriors take far longer to kill Rogues than Arms Warriors do.

Protection attacking Melee is not ideal because of the damage penalties incurred in doing so. Time matters, and though Protection burst can be high, sustained damage is not.


No one can pretend that the mock-up set is some great damage reduction set. It's on par with other PVP sets. Just because it's for Protection does not mean that it's defensive gear. You would easily drop 15-20% or more Dodge/Parry/Miss by switching it, not to mention Block Rating.

Nuberino
03-05-2008, 04:12 PM
Right. When you're against Melee opponents. In 1v1 situations you can make use of it. Against smart players, you won't have a chance to make use of it in 2v1 or 2v2 situations, because one of them can stay behind you or one of them can stun/incapacitate you. In any case, making use of it requires them to already be attacking you, which smart players won't do until you're the last one standing. There is not an unlimited Rage pool to work with.Who are these smart pvpers and why are you playing against them as prot? :D

It sounds like they are close to happy with prot spec in battlegrounds etc and don't really care to buff us in the arena. If you are playing arenas respec, if you are playing in battlegrounds, delight in our unique playstyle. :)

Ciderhelm
03-05-2008, 04:13 PM
Who are these smart pvpers and why are you playing against them as prot? :D

I can't stay mad at you. :(


It sounds like they are close to happy with prot spec in battlegrounds etc and don't really care to buff us in the arena. If you are playing arenas respec, if you are playing in battlegrounds, delight in our unique playstyle. :)
Your unique playstyle and my unique playstyle are different. That's part of the frustration a lot of Protection Warriors have. Mine involves killing people and being moderately effective at doing it thanks to gear from Naxxramas and Black Temple. Everyone else's involves running flags, tanking NPCs, and waiting endlessly by nodes hoping someone runs to them before basin ends. Allowing players to be more effective in engaging people would not need to diminish their role in flag-running, as seen with Feral Druids.

ebs2002
03-06-2008, 08:11 AM
waiting endlessly by nodes hoping someone runs to them before basin ends.
Someone's gotta do it.

I agree that it's not as OP in group PvP, but with more world pvp coming out in WotLK, and pvp servers including more 1v1, you need to consider 1v1 situations. In what situations do you think the PvP warrior would be likely to lose with these changes?

Ciderhelm
03-06-2008, 08:38 AM
Someone's gotta do it.

I agree that it's not as OP in group PvP, but with more world pvp coming out in WotLK, and pvp servers including more 1v1, you need to consider 1v1 situations. In what situations do you think the PvP warrior would be likely to lose with these changes?

The same classes Arms and Prot Warriors already lose to. Good kiters won't suddenly become bad.

ebs2002
03-06-2008, 10:20 AM
I guess I'd have to see it in action. I always felt that I had a hard time dealing with Kiting classes because I had little to no resilience, and if I had my resil up I could spell-lock/run them OOM. As a protection warrior, hunters are still fairly easy targets, and if they don't get the jump on me frost mages aren't too bad either when I'm wearing resil gear instead of SBV gear (silencing shield bash, concussion blow, trinket out of frost nova and then intercepting when they blink, and spell-reflect on frostbolt). However, my damage output isn't that great in resil gear because I'm under 400 SBV, and I usually run out of cooldowns before I get them killed.

Balance Druids, on the other hand, I think will still give us trouble.

I don't know, I'm not trying to be a pessimistic nay-sayer; it's the nature of my RL job (software developer) to look at solutions from all perspectives and try to break it. I do think that these changes would make protection warriors more viable in battlegrounds and to some extent, 2000+ rating arena, and would welcome it. I can just picture the QQing from the rest of the community, though.

gardek
03-06-2008, 11:43 AM
I've been begging to have something to PvP for as Prot for ages! I'm with you 100&#37; Cider.

klor
03-06-2008, 01:37 PM
The only thing I'm worried about with those figures is that, with such a high Shield Block Value, we'd be pretty impenetrable from a melee standpoint. Many hits would be blocked altogether.

As it is now, when I'm wearing a high SBV set in BGs, I'm impenetrable by blockable damage but spells can mow me down. This is because SBV vs Resilience is a trade-off I have to make.

I'm worried that high resilience and high block value may OP protection warriors a bit :(

The only thing is the gear would not have a high block rating, so only 2 attacks every 10 seconds would have a high possibility of making us "Impenetrable" by melee. That would hardly make it OP. Remember, SBV is only useful if you actually block the attack :) **from a damage reduction standpoint**

Taelas
03-06-2008, 01:51 PM
Yeah, PvP sets with SBV instead of AP/Str will not be anything close to tank gear. This is obvious. SBV only boosts actually blocked attacks on the defensive front (which means that only while you hit Shield Block will it be reliable, and then only for two hits). With two or more opponents, you almost certainly will be flanked, making your shield pretty useless for defensive purposes aside from the damage reduction the armor value gives.

You'd have, what, 10% base block chance, including talents?

Kruthel
03-09-2008, 01:09 PM
1 pvp set ftl...

/signed

gj Cider

Ratholorn
03-09-2008, 05:47 PM
/signed
With the exception of Bloodboil's belt (which still hasn't dropped - insert long and bitter QQing) I'm pretty much capped out at 900SBV (before trinket and T5 bonus) unless I go back to Naxx and hope Sapphiron drops the Glyph, so a Prot-PvP set complete with resilience would be nice. Although it's nice to 1v1 a warlock or rogue if I catch them alone, those times are few and far between in BGs.
(Note I could squeeze out some more SBV by gettin Badge Legs and ZA Helm but ... they look so terrible I can't bring myself to do it).

Asheowyn
03-12-2008, 08:05 AM
Agree on the fact there should be a prot pvp set.
On the survivablilty thing that some people are worried about:
Simply take off some stam / res of the current gladiator gear and add SBV and perhaps even a devastate damage (4) setbonus.
There's a bunch of ways to balance it out I would say. MS warriors are pretty damn hard to kill aswell for some classes, Prot warriors are harder, but they currently pose no threat as far as damage is concerned.
I find myself often totally ignored in arenas, which sometimes is a wonderful opportunity, to actually make use of the things we already have, but its just not enough to get one opposing team member down.
(prot warrior + holy priest 2v2 team = lol.. wru dps.. ;))

Its a matter of my team ofcourse, in this case ;)

Requnix
03-13-2008, 05:54 PM
In 2.4 we will be able to put up a decent prot pvp gear. This is mostly for those who already have some gear. But first of all, we get a 10&#37; block value meta ( Eternal Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35501)) . And t6 goes from 5 set to 8. Wich means we can pick up 4 set from t6 (10% SS dmg) and 2 set from arena sets (+35) resi. The only problem now is your lack of critt, wich can be gained from the honor items. Giving you 20-25% critt, 600-700 SBV, 200-250 res, 16k hp and around 1k Ap (w/o BS).

Well I think this is the as close as we can get a decent pvp gear. Its possible to obtain more resi w/o nerfing anny of your other stats to much, but since you are most likely ignored in anny arena its not that usefull most of the time.

Greentea
03-15-2008, 06:27 PM
Another idea for Arena viability, and perhaps BG, is to create a second set which is itemized for caster defense as well as melee defense.

Yes, this means spell resistance.

I realize that this stat could be used in pve, so perhaps the bonus would only exist in Arenas / BGs ala the drinking change in 2.4.

The second set would have other prot-specific itemized values such as straight block value and high stamina.

Imagine an item like this:
Vengeful Gladiator's Barrier Leggings:
1850 armor
130 Stamina
30 resist all (arena / bg only)
22 resilience
84 armor ignore (or whatever offensive stat, be it +hit, crit or armor ignore)
65 block value

nfw
03-16-2008, 05:47 PM
They don't have to make us awesome at PvP, to be honest I always thought prot is the best 1v1 spec already. What we need is more group utility:

For example: Empowered shield block: when shield block is active, reduce damage taken by nearby party members by x&#37;.

Disarm should also disarm ranged weapons, and the improved disarm talent should also lower its cooldown.

Demo shout needs to reduce RAP, or even spell power.

The final talent in prot could be: Rally. Requires 50 points in protection. Remove one crowd control effect from each nearby party members.

Ukyo
03-16-2008, 07:09 PM
Demo shout needs to reduce RAP, or even spell power.


That's what i've been saying all along!! it's a freaking demoralizing shout! You're freaking demoralized!!

fustigator
03-21-2008, 07:57 PM
I agree with Ciderhelm, protection warriors need their own pvp set. Why? Because Mortal Strike and Bloodthirst both scale with attack power, and Shield Slam does not. There are 3 paladin sets: +Healing for holy, +Spell damage for protection, and +Strength for retribution. Making protection warriors use dps pvp gear is like making protection paladins use retribution gear.
Warriors are a slightly different case because shield slam does scale very poorly with strength, and Devastate scales very poorly with strength and attack power(non-normalized Hemorrage daggers scaled better).
Prot warriors are difficult to gear because nothing has both block value and resilience on it - we can't have both. Defense, parry, dodge, and block value are dead stats in pvp whenever you run into a caster. Yet we must put up with this waste of itemization if we want burst damage. Imagine telling rogues their pvp gear had no attack power or agility, and see how many rogues would pvp.

I do see a couple small tweaks that could help protection pvp.
1.)Rename Improved Defensive Stance to Spell Warding, and have it work in all 3 stances(maybe at half effectiveness not in defensive stance). A deep prot warrior should be difficult to kill. Why ask for this tweak? Defensive Stance is nearly useless in PVP because it doesn't have Hamstring to keep targets in range. Yes, I dance to def stance to disarm too, but then I go right back to battle or berserker.
2.)Tactical mastery should help prot do damage like it helps arms and fury cause threat. Convert some or all of the bonus threat of either shield slam or devastate to actual damage while in battle and/or berserker stance. This kind of change could also address protection sucking at grinding/soloing, which is something I know Blizzard wants to fix.

Androkin
03-21-2008, 09:54 PM
I just figured I'd offer an alternate implementation for the prot pvp changes to block value that are being asked for. I don't post on the wow forums because of the silly flame wars, but if anyone likes this idea feel free to cross post. Rather than make changes to the various gear, just add a secondary affect to the Shield Mastery Talent.

Increase the amount of damage absorbed by your shield by 10/20/30%
Increase your block value by 0/1/2 points for each point of resilience.

This would offer the increased block value people are looking for in PVP, make the pvp gear valuable for us prot pvpers, not require a whole new set of gear for people that want to try it out, and have a pretty much negligible effect on PVE.

As a nice bonus, having resilience add to your shield block even makes sense when you consider the concept of resilience (damage reduction).

Radhja
03-22-2008, 10:30 AM
I always thought making +Defense Rating should convert to +Resilience when engaged in PvP/BG/Arena, even at a 1:3 Ratio (like +Healing converts to +1/3 spell damage as of 2.3).

I'd like to see a change implemented that regulates how much rage we would receive off a blocked attack, and receiving a 10/20/30&#37; portion of that rage (instead of the "+1 Rage" I see now from a blocked attack). If we're blocking 1k hits, I want more than just 1 rage point for the block... it's time for retaliation! (no, not the 30min CD one...)

I wonder how they're going to scale things up for WLK when it comes to SBV...