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Armstrong
03-03-2008, 07:20 PM
After running into yet another thread about the viability of Prot warriors in PvP (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4976343489&sid=1&pageNo=1) on the official warrior forums, curiosity got the best of me and I decided to spend a few minutes doing some math. I was interested in figuring out what basic stats a PvP set with Prot warriors in mind would have if it was made of gear of equivalent level and quality as a full S3 arena set.

At Cider's request, here's a repost, followed by a couple of replies I made in the same thread to answer a few questions.

Please keep in mind that this is an approximation. The SBV provided is not supposed to be scientifically accurate. The exact talent, gem and enchant choices are also just an example of one way it could be done.

Thank you, looking forward to your comments.






For what it's worth, here's some rough numbers for those thinking about PvP gear with Prot warrior stats.

The base assumption is that we can convert Strength and AP into Block Value using the following formula:

1 Str = 2 AP = 1.5 SBV

If you think you have a more precise conversion, just divide the base SBV below by 1.5 and throw in your own multiplier. I'm pretty sure that 1.5 is on the conservative side though.


The "set" includes:

- 5-piece S3 warrior set
- Sergeant's Heavy Cloak
- Vindicator's Neck, Bracers, Belt, Boots and Ring
- 1 Veteran's Ring
- Medallion of the Alliance / Horde
- Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 200
- S3 Sword, Shield and Throwing Axe


Converting all the Str and AP on the above items (before gems, enchants and talents) into SBV gives us the following:

561 SBV from armor and weapons
167 SBV from shield
59 SBV from Auto-Blocker
18 SBV from shield enchant

Total: 805 base SBV


Assuming a typical "Prot-PvP" talent build (Shield Slam, Shield Specialization, Cruelty & Death Wish) and typical PvP gemming and enchants, we get the following stats, unbuffed:
(see Warcrafter Profile here (http://www.warcrafter.net/sandbox/33886))

1047 Block Value
60 Hit Rating
31% Crit (Battle Stance)
357 Armor Penetration
383 Resilience
13084 HP (Human)


Something to think about.








are you suggesting we change block value so that 1 str = 1.5 block value or are you claiming thats what it is now? atm, 20 str = 1 block value. making it 1 str = 1.5 block value would be ridiculously overpowered.

Sorry for not being clear.

When you compare existing items of equivalent level and quality, 1 Str = 1.5 SBV is a close approximation of what each stat is "worth" when compared to one another.

This has nothing to do with how much SBV you gain from Str. I'm suggesting that "if you were to remove all Str and AP on the current warrior PvP gear and replace it with an amount of SBV in line with the item level and quality", these are the numbers you would obtain.

Get it? :)






ok, gotcha; the s3 you're including is 1h, right?

Yes, Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer




Your summary leaves out one crucial stat. Attack Power. Without decent AP to follow up Shield Slams with auto-attacks and Devastates, all that BV won't do much.

Conversely, if we left the armor set completely alone, and changed Shield Mastery from +30% BV to +30% AP to BV, then you would drop a small chunk of BV, and pickup a huge portion of AP (or, rather, not lose it to itemization for BV).

There's no arguing that the rage generation / usage model for prot warriors is largely based on the assumption of a certain amount of incoming damage, something that can't be controlled in PvP the way it is in PvE. When attacking with a single one-hander and with low attack power to boot, rage generation via auto-attack is going to be very low for sure. Focused Rage would normally be the answer here. However since the day Death Wish and Imp. Intercept were moved to the Arms tree, warriors who want to PvP with Shield Slam have had to leave out either Death Wish, part of Cruelty or Focused Rage, the latter being a huge contributor to a "normal" prot build's rage efficiency.

Nowhere am I claiming that Prot-PvP gear would make Prot warriors "viable" in PvP in and of itself. I was sinply curious to do the math and see what kind of stats you could expect to see on such a set, since a lot of people have been saying they would like to see Prot-PvP gear made available through the PvP game but noone has put together any kind of numbers (that I've seen, sorry if I missed it).

Ciderhelm
03-03-2008, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the repost on this. :) Will put together a related news post soon.

Steakums
03-03-2008, 10:19 PM
If your gonna do it like that then you definatly need to not include that POS cloak go Dory's Embrace srsly..60 badges and worth everyone...mind you i still treasure mine it came from the Bear Chest when ZA first opened ^.^

Gains - 7 Stam, 8ap, 112 Armor Pen, 1 Crit and 1 Resilience over Sgt's Heavy Cloak.

Armstrong
03-04-2008, 06:31 AM
Good point. With Dory's Embrace the "set" becomes:

1054 Block Value
60 Hit Rating
31% Crit (Battle Stance)
469 Armor Penetration
384 Resilience
13154 HP (Human)

ebs2002
03-04-2008, 11:24 AM
Ok, I had typed up a whole long post trying to figure out what the heck you were doing, and after re-reading it, I understand now.

You're just saying "this is what I wish they'd give us". You just want AP/Str changed to SBV.

I'm just posting this so others don't mis-read the OP as "this is what you can get in the game right now", as I did.

veneretio
03-04-2008, 11:41 AM
This would be really cool if they made this available. Definitely the major set back for a prot pvper is the lack of rage generation of a 1 hander. I think the only possible fix for this without unbalancing PvE rage generation is to have the 4 piece set bonus of the Prot PvP set to be along the lines of Anger Management gives 3 rage instead of 1 rage every tic or you get double the rage from melee attacks.

Basically, something that increases rage generation by a gross amount.

furiog
03-04-2008, 12:16 PM
i think one of the concerns with this approach to prot pvp gearing is how much legitimate tanking gear out there in the world is obsoleted by the relative efficiency of the gear you describe here with:

block value, crit, ?hit rating (threat)
high armor + stamina (effective health)
and resilience (crit reduction).

The same efficiency can not necessarily be said of the pvp gear for PVE dps and healing roles, where the itemization balance on arena gear is shifted substantially towards survivability instead of role efficiency, making those items less desireable outside of pvp. i.e. arena epics are for the most part good baselines, but only competitive with dungeon blues and kara purples for non-pvp purposes (weapons excluded).

Wearing just 2 pieces nets you almost 80 resilience, or -2% crit reduction, dropping the 490 defense cap down to 440 to maintain crit immunity. A much easier benchmark to hit. Sure its a substantial avoidance drop, but that can be maintained in other spots as a player sees fit, or geared for for specific battles. This "tanking" gear would be too desireable, obsoleting even a number of karazan purples out there.

at least, that's my $0.02 on why it isn't being offered. It sure would be nice, though ;-)

Ciderhelm
03-04-2008, 12:26 PM
That set would be pretty terrible for tanking. The concept of gearing for Effective Health assumes you have high Avoidance on your gear already; scrapping Avoidance altogether is just not smart.


I asked him to repost this because the stats are really as solid as can be asked for in terms of Protection, and the change is simple. I'm the last person to say that Protection should be equal to Arms, nor do I respond to posts on the WoW forums with anything other than, "if you want to PVP, spec Arms."

However, it throws me off when Blizzard says we're fine in Battlegrounds because we can run flags. What the hell? We're fine in PVP because we have some token PVE content we can do?

Magnuss
03-04-2008, 12:28 PM
furlog is right i think. the set that was described above would be an insanely awesome set to achieve and while it wouldnt be the best MT spec, it would be an insane OT one. The amount of damage you would pump out with you shield slams would probably snag it clean off the MT and you would still be able to survive a boss encounter better than say... a well equipped DPS warrior. it would cause more issues than it would solve i think and it would really piss off all the already QQ dps classes.

Signu
03-04-2008, 12:44 PM
While all that Block Value in a PvP set is necessary for our damage output, having such a small chance to block would make it worthless from a preventing death standpoint. We would have the same chance to block as any other warrior with a shield (excluding the 5% more from talents). Half the idea (from my perspective, at least) is to be awfully hard to kill with melee attacks. With low block (don't care as much about dodge/parry) that just isn't the case.

furiog
03-04-2008, 12:51 PM
That set would be pretty terrible for tanking. The concept of gearing for Effective Health assumes you have high Avoidance on your gear already; scrapping Avoidance altogether is just not smart.

to be clear, i'm thinking about its use in 2-4 spots in a PVE tanking set, where you can afford to lose some avoidance in favor of higher threat pieces. Not in every spot available, as 10% parry and 5% dodge isn't going to get you very far. But it would be useful, and effectively replace a number of blues and purples that it wasn't intended to. The stat synergy is there, perhaps not at the T5 and T6 level, but certainly it would be competitive with T4 and under PVE tanking gear if applied intelligently.

Armstrong
03-04-2008, 02:41 PM
i think one of the concerns with this approach to prot pvp gearing is how much legitimate tanking gear out there in the world is obsoleted by the relative efficiency of the gear you describe here ...

...This "tanking" gear would be too desireable, obsoleting even a number of karazan purples out there.

at least, that's my $0.02 on why it isn't being offered.

Most level 146 epic items will be more desirable than a level 115 epic from Karazhan.

I think it's also fair to say that pretty much any player of any class who isn't raiding T6 content would probably tell you that there are a few pieces of PvP gear out there that would an constitute an upgrade to their PvP set and in some cases would use a few of those items for PvE as well.

Except Prot warriors.

Armstrong
03-04-2008, 03:00 PM
While all that Block Value in a PvP set is necessary for our damage output, having such a small chance to block would make it worthless from a preventing death standpoint. We would have the same chance to block as any other warrior with a shield (excluding the 5% more from talents). Half the idea (from my perspective, at least) is to be awfully hard to kill with melee attacks. With low block (don't care as much about dodge/parry) that just isn't the case.

Well at the very least you would have the same level of survivability as any other warrior in PvP gear.

PvE tanking gear helps you survive rogues, warriors and hunters but does nothing to reduce damage from the other six classes who hit you with DoTs and magic crits. Resilience does help with that. Resilience is also a "cheaper" stat than Defense on a point-for-point basis, allowing more itemization points to be spent on DPS stats, stats you don't see much of on PvE tanking gear.

ebs2002
03-04-2008, 03:54 PM
Most level 146 epic items will be more desirable than a level 115 epic from Karazhan.

I think it's also fair to say that pretty much any player of any class who isn't raiding T6 content would probably tell you that there are a few pieces of PvP gear out there that would an constitute an upgrade to their PvP set and in some cases would use a few of those items for PvE as well.

Except Prot warriors.

Except the shield. And in some cases, the shoulders (lots of people hate Murmur)