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View Full Version : Trinkets: Stam vs. Utility



Kahmal
02-29-2008, 11:16 AM
I know a lot of people prefer to use trinkets like the Darkmoon Card and Violet badge since it adds near 1k health.

I personally never use these trinkets though, I vendered my Badge the minute I got it. I always felt that trinkets should be used for utility purposes, normally I have my Pocket Watch and Auto Blocker on, both help when I need to take less damage, and the Auto Blocker is a huge threat increase, I often swap Auto Blocker or the Pocket Watch for Adamanite Figurine, when I want more avoidance, or need to raise my defense higher due to another gear swap.

I just prefer to use my trinket slots so I can get my self out of shit. Like using the Pocket Watch during a silence, or when I AoE taunt, etc. And it helps on boss fights like Gruul, but then again, it still has a CD.

But then again. 1k health isn't something a MT should just nub off considering it's always there with no cooldown, what do you guys think?

Trual
02-29-2008, 11:43 AM
It depends on the fight, really. I like to talk to my healers and find out where they're comfortable with me being.

Right now, I'm using the Furies card and swapping out either a Scarab of Displacement or Autoblocker as my 2nd trinket, while still keeping Moroe's Pocketwatch, the Netherwing trinket, and my good ole Styleen's Impeding Scarab (for when I'm feeling particularly indecisive) in my bags.

Not able to look at armory from work, but do you gem for +sta?

Derrick
02-29-2008, 11:45 AM
/agree depends on fight. why would you vendor anything as unique as violet badge anyways? you didnt think there was anywhere you would ever need AR? i still use it on VR.

maddfez
02-29-2008, 11:45 AM
For me, trinket usage varies according to the fight. I have both dark moon faire decks, which I used on Kael and a few other high damage fights where I wanted that HP buffer. I use Scarab of Displacement and Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch for my avoidance trinkets. I have an Autoblocker and a Hourglass of the Unraveler for threat fights. Lastly I have a medallion of the alliance for random utility.

My default setup is normally the furies deck and the scarab for newish content, autoblocker and scarab for content we outgear.

klor
02-29-2008, 11:46 AM
I think vendoring your violet badge was a bad mistake. I use mine quite a bit on alot of fights. Shade and Solarian being two of the biggest. Knocking off 1500 damage a missle on Solarian makes a HUGE difference and is quite a big utilitarian move over the moroes pocketwatch. Same with shade. The violet badge cuts off alot of incoming damage from his missiles. Just my oppinion. Would even help on VR

Trual
02-29-2008, 12:46 PM
My default setup is normally the furies deck and the scarab for newish content, autoblocker and scarab for content we outgear.

This is my current setup as well. Hopefully we'll get down Bloodboil this week, and I'll be able to swap out the scarab for his trinket, though.

Maddfz, I'm surprised that you consider Kael to be a high sta fight. I find that the best combination for me is my bread&butter tanking set with aggro trinkets/1 ring. Even then, we have a lock put up CoR because I found he hits with his purse.

Bodasafa
02-29-2008, 01:17 PM
Ya dont vendor that stuff. The Violet Badge is great for certina situations when extra stam and arcane res are needed. Hell just grinding for Badges outta heroic ARC and MECH where the robots do mass arcane damage makes it a nice option to have.

I dont have a Darkmoon Card so I ussually use these:

Trinket 1 - Violet Badge (stam or arc res) or Pocket Watch (avoidance)
Trinket 2 - Auto Blocker

I never take the Auto Blocker off. I will have a very very hard time replacing that with anything. Snap aggro FTW, mitigation and up to 2577 highest crit in DEF stance in a raid.

Eventually when I get the Spyglass from SSC trash I will use that one as my stam trinket. Also the Scarb off Hydross will come in handy for avoidance.

Basically save all the high end stuff u get. You never know when your going to find a awsome use for it. Better to save something that vendors for under 10g, than to find out you have lost it forever.

klor
02-29-2008, 01:20 PM
This is my current setup as well. Hopefully we'll get down Bloodboil this week, and I'll be able to swap out the scarab for his trinket, though.

Maddfz, I'm surprised that you consider Kael to be a high sta fight. I find that the best combination for me is my bread&butter tanking set with aggro trinkets/1 ring. Even then, we have a lock put up CoR because I found he hits with his purse.

I think its due in part for the times you do have to eat the pyroblast... many tanks stack VERY high stam on Kael for this time no?

Magnuss
02-29-2008, 01:30 PM
I am a stamina stacking machine. i have found that if you stack stamina real high you can do most any fight. I see alot of people have 2+ sets of tanking armor for certain fights but there is rarely a boss fight that i need more threat than i able to generate on my own (typically i am well ahead of the pack and not worried about it) and even more rare is a fight where i absolutely must have avoidance. i havent gone real far into T5 so there may be fights where this doesnt hold true as much but with everything i have experienced, stam stacking is great.

with that said i keep all of my trinkets i get and typically have as many as 5 in with me at all times. I like having the ability to swap to an autoblocker for a pull of some trash in a raid (where dps is going to start fast and if i lose the target, everyone dies) and i like having some "oh shit" options as well that can let me live a bit longer. I still think that for boss fights i like having the huge boost of stamina because its utility is almost always worth the two slots and the other trinkets can be used for unique pulls and odd situations.

Trual
02-29-2008, 01:45 PM
I think its due in part for the times you do have to eat the pyroblast... many tanks stack VERY high stam on Kael for this time no?


Definitely, I can see why people do it, I just always found that for Kael I'm always low on rage and needed to make sure that every hit counted. We off-tank the phoenixes (feral druid - any extra warriors are on MC duty) at the base of the stairs, which lets the rogues break off and help kill the eggs. Meant that we almost never have dps out of position when a shield goes up.

And if I'm eating a pyro then it means someone else (or many someone elses) screwed up. If I lose threat on the boss, then it's my fault.

maddfez
02-29-2008, 02:05 PM
For Kael, we went with the 'MT eats a pyro strategy'. I had my max HP around 22.5k for the fight, just to give us as much wiggle room as possible. Did I go overboard? Absolutely, but it worked very well.

Aggro was not a huge problem...since we prioritized everything over dpsing Kael, I ended up with a huge threat lead. If I was low on rage I just asked the interrupters to let a fireball through :-)



Personally I'm hoping Bloodboil will cough up a trinket soon, but in our three kills he's gotten both myself and our OT tank belts so I can't complain too much.


Last note, on CoR...we just started putting it on everything and the DPS returns have been phenomenal. The only fight we don't use it on currently is Azgalor, since we don't have the melee in for that fight (and he hits like a freight train). Get one of your DPS warriors to spec 5/5 imp demo and enjoy.

Bodasafa
02-29-2008, 02:09 PM
I thought 2/5 was the max effective against raid bosses for imp demo shout.

Or did they change it?

maddfez
02-29-2008, 02:57 PM
2/5 is max effective without CoReck up. CoReck gives the boss an extra 135 ap, so the extra 3 points in Imp Demo help remove some of that bonus. I believe the boss ends up with around 60 ap. Meanwhile, all of your physical dps gain 800 armor pen, which is very substantial. Also, this will boost your tanks damage and therefore the threat cap for the raid.

Invisniper
02-29-2008, 04:11 PM
Personally I've never been a fan of utility trinkets, but only because I keep forgetting to use them. If I remembered to use them I'm sure I'd love them, but I've gotten used to using both the Darkmoon cards.

Foolishness
03-03-2008, 07:41 AM
wow.

Ill say what i always say.

Gear for the fight. Asking whether stam trinkets are better than dodge trinkets is like asking if dinner plates are better than headphones. Completely random metaphore right? Well so is the question.

If your looking for the best set of gear to wear at all times without having to change any gear, then you rolled the wrong class.

SuperFlounder
03-03-2008, 09:10 AM
I second the stam stacking on Kael, in a progression setting, you're going to eat a pyro blast, nuff said.

For normal progression fights that are melee based, I keep to moreo's and darkmoon fair cards. The fact that I have roughly 50% total avoidance means the use on the pocket watch takes a substantial bit off the incoming damage. While the scarab is very cool, its longer cd and less powerful use kinda ruins it for me. If I need to proc it, its because I really need to interrupt a steady stream of damage incoming, like when Morogrim does he wants to go crazy. Scarab comes in useful for keeping defense high on resist sets though.

You can't go wrong with stam, frankly. I'd get two darkmoon if I were you. You just plain need stam for some fights. Tankpoints can really help you out. Planning for utilty must mean the utility will really be worth it. If you run with 40-45% avoidance, the pocket watch won't be as relatively effective, if you stam stack already, you might as well stam stack with your trinkets.

Trual
03-05-2008, 12:39 PM
@maddfez: sounds like you guys are almost exactly where we are in progression right now - i think a little ahead. (we're working on gurtogg, with Az down).

@foolishness: I prefer to wear dinner plates AND headphones. I put the headphones on top of the dinner plates, and the dinner plates against my ear. Makes for a whole surround-sound feeling.

Oh yeah, Madd's also 100% on the CoR/Imp Demo thing.

Aelvain
03-06-2008, 03:09 PM
wow.

Ill say what i always say.

Gear for the fight. Asking whether stam trinkets are better than dodge trinkets is like asking if dinner plates are better than headphones. Completely random metaphore right? Well so is the question.

If your looking for the best set of gear to wear at all times without having to change any gear, then you rolled the wrong class.

I think the OP is looking for actual specific input on where these options are more valuable, not a blanket response that offers no actual help. I particularly like the snobbish "I'll say what I always say," when your response is just a copy/paste of a phrase repeated by literally thousands of warriors.

As a guild in the farming stage, only 1,000 extra hp is completely useless to me. Since I'm focusing on maximizing dps/tps, the Auto-Blocker is obviously a trinket I wear pretty often. The use of Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch is also extremely powerful and has definitely saved me a few times, making it more worthwhile than other trinkets of its item level. This is largely due to the fact that I have fairly high avoidance (~68 - 70% raid buffed). The utility of these two trinkets makes them very valuable, and worth using over trinkets with higher item levels quite often in my opinion. Shadowmoon Insignia is something I put on when I want the raw avoidance to attain passive uncrushability, while keeping the min/max mindset and continuing to use the Auto-Blocker. Its use is not what makes it good.

Edgewalker
03-14-2008, 10:27 AM
This isn't really a debate, it's more a matter of opinion, though common sense would tell you that generally you get more mileage out of avoidance. This is especially true when you consider the amazing "On Use" trinkets like Moroe's Pocket Watch and Scarab of Displacement. Stamina is, aside from kael, just a tool to help you survive if the RNG hates you, and heals get out of sync. If you are in below average gear tanking above average content, by all means, use Stamina trinkets for progression to lower the chances of a "gib".
If you are in T6 gear tanking T6 content though, Stamina stacking begins to become, in my opinion, progressively less valuable. In Sunwell, as bosses stop crushing, and start hitting for numbers exceeding 10,000, stamina stacking becomes basically worthless, and gemming for 10 dodge over 15 stamina even becomes preferred. Moroe's Trinket and Commendation of Kael'Thalas OR Shadowmoon Insignia will become the new standard, especially considering the 2 minute cooldown on the pocket watch and the timers on Portals, Stomps, Corrosives, and Ports.

Ciderhelm
03-14-2008, 02:12 PM
This isn't really a debate, it's more a matter of opinion, though common sense would tell you that generally you get more mileage out of avoidance. This is especially true when you consider the amazing "On Use" trinkets like Moroe's Pocket Watch and Scarab of Displacement. Stamina is, aside from kael, just a tool to help you survive if the RNG hates you, and heals get out of sync. If you are in below average gear tanking above average content, by all means, use Stamina trinkets for progression to lower the chances of a "gib".

If you are in T6 gear tanking T6 content though, Stamina stacking begins to become, in my opinion, progressively less valuable. In Sunwell, as bosses stop crushing, and start hitting for numbers exceeding 10,000, stamina stacking becomes basically worthless, and gemming for 10 dodge over 15 stamina even becomes preferred. Moroe's Trinket and Commendation of Kael'Thalas OR Shadowmoon Insignia will become the new standard, especially considering the 2 minute cooldown on the pocket watch and the timers on Portals, Stomps, Corrosives, and Ports.

Wholeheartedly agree on this. Sunwell is not going to favor mindless Stamina stacking.

Stamina is a progression tool. It is not always the best progression tool, but it's a great way to get through content you're not geared for. If you're geared for the content but don't have new gear, Stamina will continue to get you through farm content. However, when you're able to seriously look and choose between items, especially at a point where you're not progressing quickly, or you're stuck on a unique encounter, there are plenty of places where you'll pick Avoidance over Stamina.

Gemming for Stamina is different than gearing against Avoidance. You can gear for Avoidance and gem for Stamina, and since that follows the gear progression for Warriors, you'll just about always come out ahead in Armor.

Per trinkets in particular:
I have managed to see only a single epic avoidance trinket (from Zul'jin). My luck is just that bad, especially in Karazhan. I still equipped non-epic Defense trinkets over pure Stam epic trinkets more often than not. It's the easiest slot to adjust to what you're tanking.

Methadone
03-15-2008, 01:38 AM
I almost exclusivly use Auto-Blocker with either Vengeance, Solarian Sapphire, Moroes or Shadowmoon or the Zul'Jin trinket depending on the fight.

Foolishness
03-31-2008, 11:17 PM
I use my stam trinkets on trash, specifically to lower my avoidance and mitigation, so that i take a savage beating. This way i have unlimited rage and can keep up with the DPS who have ants in their pants and open up with crits before i even break the damn sheep. If i had the auto blocker i would use it on trash, but i have spent all my badges on items useful for boss fights, so i haven't got that one yet.

An additional bonus is that the extra stam allows me to take a savage beating that i'm hoping for.

On fast hitting bosses i roll with over 65% avoidance (and no, shield block is not counted as avoidance).

On trash i lower it to about 30%.

I use the Madness card and a rocket launcher. Reason i use madness/ lunacy is because i could get it for 800G. On my server the vengeance/ furies was like 2K gold for the set. Eventually i would like to have the Madness and the Vengeance but its kinda hard when i spend all my time raiding with no time to farm.

Tizack
04-01-2008, 10:41 AM
yeah like everyone has been saying. depends on the fight.

i usualy use the shadowmoon insignia for everything then dependson on what i am tanking. but i will use the new commendation of KAel'thas(major health). or the GAB for (threat) or my pocket watch to bring up my avoidance.

Melange
04-06-2008, 01:40 AM
A few things:
1) Never vendor the best -anything- in the game. In this case he vendored the best Arcane Resist trinket in the game, and then talks about how he wants more situational trinkets. What could possibly be more situational than resist gear?
2) The Sunwell favors stamina stacking, since it also gives the bosses a 25% higher chance to hit you, which devalues the marginal benefit of your avoidance gear. Basically, you walk in with 70% avoidance and 21000 HP, but you only get 45% avoidance and 21000 HP. If you walk in with 60% avoidance and 24000 hp, you get 35% avoidance and 24000 HP. The numbers when you walk in, I like the avoidance. The numbers when you are actually fighting, I like the stamina.
3) You can never go wrong with the combination of Commendation of Kael'Thas, Darkmoon Card: Vengeance. If you don't have the former yet, you should at least have Darkmoon Card: Madness There will be fights where avoidance is favored, but even on those, you will be just fine with two stamina trinkets. As far as going for passive uncrushability, it was not needed in any BT/Hyjal fights, and it is pretty well impossible (and also not needed) in Sunwell.
4) I don't know about your guilds, but in ours, the warriors already get no rage, and the pallys are always OOM. I'm fine, but I'm a Drood, we have more rage than we know what to do with, for the most part.

Edgewalker
04-07-2008, 11:58 PM
A few things:
1) Never vendor the best -anything- in the game. In this case he vendored the best Arcane Resist trinket in the game, and then talks about how he wants more situational trinkets. What could possibly be more situational than resist gear?
2) The Sunwell favors stamina stacking, since it also gives the bosses a 25% higher chance to hit you, which devalues the marginal benefit of your avoidance gear. Basically, you walk in with 70% avoidance and 21000 HP, but you only get 45% avoidance and 21000 HP. If you walk in with 60% avoidance and 24000 hp, you get 35% avoidance and 24000 HP. The numbers when you walk in, I like the avoidance. The numbers when you are actually fighting, I like the stamina.
3) You can never go wrong with the combination of Commendation of Kael'Thas, Darkmoon Card: Vengeance. If you don't have the former yet, you should at least have Darkmoon Card: Madness There will be fights where avoidance is favored, but even on those, you will be just fine with two stamina trinkets. As far as going for passive uncrushability, it was not needed in any BT/Hyjal fights, and it is pretty well impossible (and also not needed) in Sunwell.
4) I don't know about your guilds, but in ours, the warriors already get no rage, and the pallys are always OOM. I'm fine, but I'm a Drood, we have more rage than we know what to do with, for the most part.



I can't believe you would subscribe to your own misinformation.
A FLAT NON PERCENTAGE BASED reduction in avoidance does not make stamina suddenly more valuable in Sunwell. If anything, quite the opposite occurs, hence why more and more tanks are using 10 dodge gems in lieu of 15 stamina gems. Darkmoon Card Vengeance and Darkmoon Card Madness have always been, and will always be, over rated pieces of garbage for anything beyond Tier 6 content regarding hard hitting bosses.

Melange
04-08-2008, 10:07 AM
I can't believe you would subscribe to your own misinformation.
A FLAT NON PERCENTAGE BASED reduction in avoidance does not make stamina suddenly more valuable in Sunwell. If anything, quite the opposite occurs, hence why more and more tanks are using 10 dodge gems in lieu of 15 stamina gems. Darkmoon Card Vengeance and Darkmoon Card Madness have always been, and will always be, over rated pieces of garbage for anything beyond Tier 6 content regarding hard hitting bosses.
Hurray, someone who has no idea what he/she is talking about. Actually, yes a flat non-percentage based reduction in avoidance does make stamina more valuable. Or, more precisely, makes avoidance less valuable. Yes, the fact that bosses do not crush makes stamina less valuable too, but I think the effect on avoidance is going to be larger.

Consider this extreme example.
I have 0% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 1% less often.
I have 50% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 2% less often.
The same one percent avoidance is twice as good since I have more avoidance.

Now consider what we are actually talking about:
I have 65% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 2.9% less often.
I have 40% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 1.7% less often.

This is not to say that you should get rid of all avoidance. It is just saying that avoidance is not as good in Sunwell as it is for BT/Hyjal bosses. So the people who seem to think you walk into Sunwell and get rid of the stamina trinkets are just plain wrong.

Link
04-08-2008, 10:22 AM
I used Darkmoon Card: Vengeance and Darkmoon Card: Madness from when they were first added to the game until 2.4 came out. It took that long to get trinkets that were better in my opinion.

Now I wear Shadowmoon Insignia and the Commendation of Kael'thas.

duvar
04-08-2008, 11:11 AM
Hurray, someone who has no idea what he/she is talking about. Actually, yes a flat non-percentage based reduction in avoidance does make stamina more valuable. Or, more precisely, makes avoidance less valuable. Yes, the fact that bosses do not crush makes stamina less valuable too, but I think the effect on avoidance is going to be larger.

Consider this extreme example.
I have 0% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 1% less often.
I have 50% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 2% less often.
The same one percent avoidance is twice as good since I have more avoidance.

Uhh... No. You're playing with words and trying to create confusion, either intentionally or unintentionally. What does it mean to get hit 1% less often? Unless you answer "not enough information", you're wrong. That's because you can use that to mean either a multiplicative decrease or an additive decrease. For this reason, percentages are almost never as useful as just looking at raw numbers. This is compounded by the fact that healing gets additive bonuses from gear (i.e. Gear that says Equip: Increases healing done by magical spells by 132). That's an additive bonus. But you've used multiplicative percentages in your analysis (1-0)/1 vs. (51-50)/51.

What matters is incoming damage per second and how fast the healers can keep up with it. Now that actually means something. Let's say the mob hits for 10k damage average, and hits once per 2 seconds. Change the numbers if you want, the results wont' change much. But this looks pretty reasonable for Sunwell mobs from what I've read.

0% avoidance -> 5k incoming DPS
1% avoidance -> 4950 incoming DPS

50% avoidance -> 2500 incoming DPS
51% avoidance -> 2450 incoming DPS

In both cases, you have reduced incoming DPS by exactly 50. What this means is that damage reduction scales linearly with avoidance. Effective Health is almost a completely useless measure in a situation where you're dead in 2 full unhealed hits, but avoidance always provides a consistent linear decrease in damage taken / time.

Malignus
04-08-2008, 12:15 PM
Hurray, someone who has no idea what he/she is talking about. Actually, yes a flat non-percentage based reduction in avoidance does make stamina more valuable. Or, more precisely, makes avoidance less valuable. Yes, the fact that bosses do not crush makes stamina less valuable too, but I think the effect on avoidance is going to be larger.

Consider this extreme example.
I have 0% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 1% less often.
I have 50% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 2% less often.
The same one percent avoidance is twice as good since I have more avoidance.

Now consider what we are actually talking about:
I have 65% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 2.9% less often.
I have 40% avoidance; I gain 1% avoidance; I get hit 1.7% less often.

This is not to say that you should get rid of all avoidance. It is just saying that avoidance is not as good in Sunwell as it is for BT/Hyjal bosses. So the people who seem to think you walk into Sunwell and get rid of the stamina trinkets are just plain wrong.
You realize that Edgewalker helped write the guide you got your equation for the exponential increase of avoidance from, right?

VI e. The Exponential Returns of Avoidance
Avoidance gains net exponential returns as your avoidance improves. A 1% improvement in avoidance at 50% avoidance will net you a relative mitigation of 2%.
Taken to an extreme, a 1% increase in avoidance at 99% will yield a relative mitigation improvement of infinity, as you will become invulnerable.

This happens because avoidance rolls are performed on one dice, and are not multiplicative.

The equation which dictates this pace is the same as that for armorís relative damage reduction. The difference here is that unlike armor, additional percentages of avoidance do not take an ever-increasing number of points of dodge rating, parry rating, or defense to obtain. Do not let this fool you into thinking avoidance is a substitute for armor. You must assume that boss will always get lucky and perform its worst-case-scenario.

The equation is as follows:
X=1/(100-avoidance)

X is the relative worth of a point of avoidance.
*insert graph*
Within the final 5% more avoidance, the Y value will reach infinity.

Melange
04-08-2008, 03:55 PM
@ Malignus: Sorry, didn't read his guide, but knowing that now, he really should have known that then shouldn't he?
@ Duvar: Additive just does not make sense when you are dealing with a percentage chance. Look at 99 to 100 and tell me if it still makes any sense to think about it that way.

duvar
04-08-2008, 04:37 PM
It is the ONLY thing that makes sense, what doesn't make sense is saying that your hits avoided went up by infinity% when going from 99->100% dodge.

Multiplicative is misleading because healers gain additive bonuses to healing from their gear. If you increase your avoidance from 1% to 2% then go around touting that you "doubled your avoidance rate", it's silly. You certainly didn't half the amount of healing that you're going to require, which is the whole reason for looking at this type of analysis in the first place. Increase your avoidance so that you require less healing.

Anyway to cite your specific example, going from 99% dodge to 100% dodge means you reduced your incoming damage taken by exactly 50 Damage per second. That is the measurement that matters to your healers and to your ability to stay alive, and that measurement scales linearly with aviodance.

Melange
04-08-2008, 09:42 PM
We're talking about the relative value of stamina vs. dodge.
First, to make things simple, the boss only melees and specials. He does 2000DPS with high hits of 6000 and does not crush.

Suppose you have 0% avoidance and 10000 HP. Which do you choose? The trinket that give you 1% dodge, or the trinket that gives you 1000 HP?

Suppose you have 99% avoidance and 10000 HP. Which do you choose? The trinket that give you 1% dodge, or the trinket that gives you 1000 HP?

Usually that 1% avoidance item is not that great. As you approach very high levels of avoidance, it gets better and better. Likewise, when you move away from very high levels of avoidance, avoidance gets marginally worse.

Sometimes people look for linear relations because they are easier to understand. Yes, there is a linear relationship between damage taken and avoidance. Just because that relationship is linear, does not mean that it is the way to judge the stat. Another example would be stamina. I add 1 Stam, I get 10 HP. It's a linear relationship, but it's not what you should be looking at. As far as stamina is concerned, the stamina needed to take one hit is more important than the stamina needed to take two hits, which is more important than the stamina needed to take three, etc. Armor operates on the exact same mechanic as stamina. (Linear with time-to-live) When people hear linear relationship, they tend to think that that last point of armor is just as good as the first, when in fact it is not.

duvar
04-08-2008, 10:18 PM
Suppose you have 0% avoidance and 10000 HP. Which do you choose? The trinket that give you 1% dodge, or the trinket that gives you 1000 HP?

Suppose you have 99% avoidance and 10000 HP. Which do you choose? The trinket that give you 1% dodge, or the trinket that gives you 1000 HP?

Usually that 1% avoidance item is not that great. As you approach very high levels of avoidance, it gets better and better. Likewise, when you move away from very high levels of avoidance, avoidance gets marginally worse.

No, it doesnt. Any way you slice it, that 1% of avoidance only has an effect one-one hundredth of the time. Whether you have 0% avoidance or 99% avoidance, you've decreased your damage taken by the exact same amount in both cases. I'd take the stamina trinket in the first case and the dodge trinket in the second case. But it has NOTHING to do with the jump from 0->1 or the jump from 99->100. What it does have to do with is the fact that I'm goign to be getting hit an assload with both 0% or 1% dodge, and (virtually) never with either 99 or 100% dodge.

1% is 1% is 1% is 1% is 1% is 1% is 1%

It's not more effective at 99%, and it's not less effective at 0%.

Now if you want to talk about haste rating, that actually does scale up as you stack it. Dodge does not. I just don't see how you can say with a straight face that the "effectiveness" of something that reduces incoming damage received on a linear scale grows exponentionally.

Edgewalker
04-08-2008, 11:04 PM
Hurray, someone who has no idea what he/she is talking about. Actually, yes a flat non-percentage based reduction in avoidance does make stamina more valuable. Or, more precisely, makes avoidance less valuable. Yes, the fact that bosses do not crush makes stamina less valuable too, but I think the effect on avoidance is going to be larger.



Staminas value gets leap frogged by the large amounts of potential burst in Sunwell, which is why every end game tank in every guild worth talking about has been switching to dodge and defense gems.
A STATIC reduction in avoidance, in practice, does not make avoidance less valuable. Period.
The discussion is in relation to Stamina, not in relation to avoidance vs. more avoidance...
Your argument was pointless and didn't address me at all.

Dots
04-12-2008, 04:25 AM
Uhm, stamina doesn't get leap frogged at all.
The reason why avoidance is so good in T6 content is that the high % makes it somewhat reliable while the bosses still have to hit at least 4 times to kill the tank. A static reduction in avoidance very much affects this and does make avoidance less valuable.
Brutallus is the only encounter that heavily favors avoidance. For the other three it is still reasonable, however not at the rate of using 10 dodge/def gems instead of 15 stamina. Felmyst especially is a pure EH fight, unless you fancy rolling the dice on every single Corrosion.

Edgewalker
04-12-2008, 08:03 AM
Uhm, stamina doesn't get leap frogged at all.
The reason why avoidance is so good in T6 content is that the high % makes it somewhat reliable while the bosses still have to hit at least 4 times to kill the tank. A static reduction in avoidance very much affects this and does make avoidance less valuable.
Brutallus is the only encounter that heavily favors avoidance. For the other three it is still reasonable, however not at the rate of using 10 dodge/def gems instead of 15 stamina. Felmyst especially is a pure EH fight, unless you fancy rolling the dice on every single Corrosion.

If you honestly think 2000 life will make the difference when a boss hits for 12,000+ more than roughly 10% dodge will, more power to you. Avoidance is simply better for the majority of the bosses in Sunwell.

And yes, that extra 2000 life normally DOES get leap frogged. Look at any WWS of a tank dying, look at their life from alive - kill blow, and parse how many times gemming 15 stamina would have saved them.

Dots
04-12-2008, 08:36 AM
So you are trading ~165 stamina for ~185 dodge rating through simple regemming? That is indeed quite impressive.
Those 2k hitpoints actually do make quite a difference if they allow you to survive another hit, which is especially true for Felmyst. I don't even know why you would want to avoid a lot of hits in that encounter. She hits so slow and rage issues come up all the time if you want to keep sufficient threat.
So far all Sunwell bosses except Brutallus do medium tank damage but have a huge burst potential for which avoidance doesn't really help at all. Avoidance trinkets are still useful in many cases, gemming for it hardly ever is.
Kalecgos: melee + high stacked magical AE / Demon: stun + melee
Felmyst: double melee hits under Corrosion, even worse if one of them is a Cleave
Twins: crushing blows followed by Confounding Blow

None of these are really uncommon, and none of these are helped much by upping your avoidance from 42% to 52% or whatever it is.

Foolishness
04-12-2008, 09:24 AM
No, it doesnt. Any way you slice it, that 1% of avoidance only has an effect one-one hundredth of the time. Whether you have 0% avoidance or 99% avoidance, you've decreased your damage taken by the exact same amount in both cases. I'd take the stamina trinket in the first case and the dodge trinket in the second case. But it has NOTHING to do with the jump from 0->1 or the jump from 99->100. What it does have to do with is the fact that I'm goign to be getting hit an assload with both 0% or 1% dodge, and (virtually) never with either 99 or 100% dodge.

I can't help being rude here, you really need to revise your maths.

If your dodge is 99%, and you add 1%, then you reduce your incoming damage by 100%, not 1%.

If your dodge is 98% and you add 1%, then you decrease your damage intake by 50%.

Hence, the more dodge you have, the more damage each additional point of dodge will reduce your damage by.


I just don't see how you can say with a straight face that the "effectiveness" of something that reduces incoming damage received on a linear scale grows exponentionally.

I kept a straight face, with a tad bit of a frown. Its kind of painful trying to discuss theory craft when people don't understand simple maths.


When people hear linear relationship, they tend to think that that last point of armor is just as good as the first, when in fact it is not.

Also to the guy who said the last point of armour isnt as effective as the first... well it is. Ciderhelm slams you with this concept like 50 times in his main warrior guide which is probably one of the most read warrior guides around. How can you miss it?

I hate to stoop to the level of the wow forums where harsh criticism is the norm, but seriously, for an intermediate/ advanced tanking discussion board people should really take the time to learn their stuff before sprouting off rubbish. It leads people astray.

Edgewalker
04-12-2008, 02:57 PM
So you are trading ~165 stamina for ~185 dodge rating through simple regemming? That is indeed quite impressive.
Those 2k hitpoints actually do make quite a difference if they allow you to survive another hit, which is especially true for Felmyst. I don't even know why you would want to avoid a lot of hits in that encounter. She hits so slow and rage issues come up all the time if you want to keep sufficient threat.
So far all Sunwell bosses except Brutallus do medium tank damage but have a huge burst potential for which avoidance doesn't really help at all. Avoidance trinkets are still useful in many cases, gemming for it hardly ever is.
Kalecgos: melee + high stacked magical AE / Demon: stun + melee
Felmyst: double melee hits under Corrosion, even worse if one of them is a Cleave
Twins: crushing blows followed by Confounding Blow

None of these are really uncommon, and none of these are helped much by upping your avoidance from 42% to 52% or whatever it is.

All of those scenarios you described are still easily survivable with avoidance gems and gear, and quite a bit more unlikely, especially the crushing blows on the twins. Felmyst is the only fight where I can see not wanting avoidance gear, and we simply use a druid tank so it really hasn't come up.
This argument is beaten to death though, so I guess there isn't anything else to add or say that will ever change each others minds.

pvrhye
04-13-2008, 04:01 AM
Why would you vendor the badge? Do you have a better piece for arcane resist fights somehow?

duvar
04-14-2008, 08:33 AM
I kept a straight face, with a tad bit of a frown. Its kind of painful trying to discuss theory craft when people don't understand simple maths.

You're telling someone with a PhD in math that he doesn't understand simple math. Try again.




No, it doesnt. Any way you slice it, that 1% of avoidance only has an effect one-one hundredth of the time. Whether you have 0% avoidance or 99% avoidance, you've decreased your damage taken by the exact same amount in both cases. I'd take the stamina trinket in the first case and the dodge trinket in the second case. But it has NOTHING to do with the jump from 0->1 or the jump from 99->100. What it does have to do with is the fact that I'm goign to be getting hit an assload with both 0% or 1% dodge, and (virtually) never with either 99 or 100% dodge.

I can't help being rude here, you really need to revise your maths.

If your dodge is 99%, and you add 1%, then you reduce your incoming damage by 100%, not 1%.

If your dodge is 98% and you add 1%, then you decrease your damage intake by 50%.

Perhaps you should read what I said more carefully. You reduce your damage taken by the same AMOUNT. Quantity, number, level, magnitude. Chooose whatever word you want, I'm still right. If you reduced your damage taken by 50 damage per second from 98 to 99% dodge, then you reduce your damage taken by 50 damage per second from 99 to 100% dodge.

Example: Suppose you never dodge and you're receiving 5,000 damage per second.
0% dodge - 5000 damage per second
50% dodge - 2500 damage per second
97% dodge - 150 damage per second
98% dodge - 100 damage per second
99% dodge - 50 damage per second
100% dodge - 0 damage per second

Notice how it decreased by exactly 50 damage per second for every 1% of dodge? Which leads to your following statement:



Hence, the more dodge you have, the more damage each additional point of dodge will reduce your damage by.


No, wrong, incorrect, false

If you're going to be "rude" to someone and tell them they don't understand simple math, make sure you actually do understand simple math.

Kream
04-14-2008, 01:57 PM
You're telling someone with a PhD in math that he doesn't understand simple math. Try again.

OK.

This is about the marginal affect of dodge. Lets say you are considering adding 1% dodge to your gear. Here is the net affect at various percentages of current avoidance:

0% - 1/100 = 1% less damage
10% - 1/90 = 1.1% less damage
20% - 1/80 = 1.25% less damage
30% - 1/70 = 1.4% less damage
40% - 1/60 = 1.6% less damage
50% - 1/50 = 2% less damage
60% - 1/40 = 2.5% less damage
70% - 1/30 = 3.3% less damage
80% - 1/20 = 5% less damage
90% - 1/10 = 10% less damage
95% - 1/5 = 20% less damage

duvar
04-14-2008, 02:54 PM
Ugh, I'm trying my best not to get angry I think I will just step out of this thread after this post. In any case, you're fooling yourself over the percent sign. It doesn't matter. Percent doesn't matter. Do you see healers getting items that say "Increases the power of your heals by 5%"? No. It's a fixed amount. So unless you start analyzing the two factors (heals received and incoming damage) in common units, you're misleading yourself. The common unit is heals per second and damage per second. Why is that so hard to understand?


0% - 1/100 = 1% less damage
10% - 1/90 = 1.1% less damage
20% - 1/80 = 1.25% less damage
30% - 1/70 = 1.4% less damage
40% - 1/60 = 1.6% less damage
50% - 1/50 = 2% less damage
60% - 1/40 = 2.5% less damage
70% - 1/30 = 3.3% less damage
80% - 1/20 = 5% less damage
90% - 1/10 = 10% less damage
95% - 1/5 = 20% less damage


Let me recalculate your table into terms that actually mean something, even though I already did that in the previous post. Assuming 5,000 incoming damage per second from an enemy.

0% - 0 less damage
10% - 500 less damage
20% - 1000 less damage
30% - 1500 less damage
40% - 2000 less damage
50% - 2500 less damage
60% - 3000 less damage
70% - 3500 less damage
80% - 4000 less damage
90% - 4500 less damage
100% - 5000 less damage

This is a linear relationship. Sorry but this is really infuriating that such a simple concept and people can't grasp, then have the audacity to tell me that I'm the one not understanding something. The percentages does not accurately reflect how long you can increase your survivability. Damage per second does. I dont' care if adding 1% of dodge increases your avoidability by .00001%, or 10%, or 99%. It's still EXACTLY 50 DAMAGE PER SECOND for each percent of dodge in the example I gave, and that is the measurement that determines how long you're going to stay alive. Avoidance does not get more effective with each additional point, I'm sorry but it just doesn't.

If you want to put this in terms of TTL (time to live) assuming you are receiving no heals, then you will see a non-linear relationship. For example, assuming 5k incoming DPS and a 20k health pool

0% dodge - 4 second TTL
10% dodge - 4.44 second TTL
20% dodge - 5 second TTL

So you can see it increases your TTL by more and more each time. But again, you're fooling yourself if this is the measurement that you're using, because it does not model any realistic scenario that you will ever encounter at all, except for the case where all your healers in the entire raid are dead, which is quite frankly a silly case to analyze.

Kazeyonoma
04-14-2008, 04:06 PM
duvar's statements in this thread are correct. But technically so are the argumentors of him. The fact of the matter is. you guys are arguing different points. duvar's statements are 100% sound. Adding 1% dodge whether it be at 0% or at 95% does not exponentially get "better" because you've reduced the incoming damage. What you've done is increased your avoidance exponentially. These are two separate things.

Foolishness
04-14-2008, 05:18 PM
duvar your maths is right, but percentages DO matter. You have taken the idea avoidance way out of context. Avoidance is a CHANCE of not being hit.

Hence, the CHANCE of you being hit is exponentially reduced with every point of avoidance. In practical terms, no one treats avoidance as a function of time to live.

So technically, we are both right, but practically, you are looking at it from an irrelevant perspective.

duvar
04-15-2008, 09:20 AM
duvar your maths is right, but percentages DO matter. You have taken the idea avoidance way out of context. Avoidance is a CHANCE of not being hit.

Hence, the CHANCE of you being hit is exponentially reduced with every point of avoidance. In practical terms, no one treats avoidance as a function of time to live.

So technically, we are both right, but practically, you are looking at it from an irrelevant perspective.

And this is our fundamental disagreement. I think you are looking at it from an irrelevant perspective. Here is my thought process:

Q: Why do you want avoidance?
A: To reduce the amount of damage you take.
Q: Why do you want to reduce the amount of damage you take?
A: So the healers can more easily keep you alive.

The healers don't care if you reduce your damage intake by 5%, 50%, or 500% because that doesn't translate into a number that means anything to them. They do, however, care if you reduce your damage intake by 5, 50, or 500. Why? Because all of the gear, items, flasks, and gems that they use to increase their heals give a fixed bonus to their heals.

It's like try to analyze what happens when you increase the energy output of some arbitrary mechanical system that was putting out 500 Newtons by 3%, and you have another system that receives energy at 400 Poundals, and you can flip a switch to increase the energy intake by 100 Poundals. This means nothing, because nothing is in the same units. If you convert everything to the same units, then you can make a meaningful analysis.

Taige
04-15-2008, 10:52 AM
Apparently Kungen hasn't had a problem putting the stacking stam theory into practice?

Dots
04-15-2008, 11:47 AM
Duvar, the healers also don't give a damn about how much your avoidance changes incoming DPS compared to having 0% avoidance. They care about how your gear/upgrades can change it relative to what you have now. Is that really so hard to understand?

byechee
04-15-2008, 12:10 PM
Apparently Kungen hasn't had a problem putting the stacking stam theory into practice?

whether you stack stam or avoidance really depends on how your healers are, and how well a tank can hit his/her cooldowns (both pro-actively and reactively). either gearing method will, can, and has worked.

Taige
04-15-2008, 12:14 PM
whether you stack stam or avoidance really depends on how your healers are, and how well a tank can hit his/her cooldowns (both pro-actively and reactively). either gearing method will, can, and has worked.

I agree. As edgewalker has proven with his success in SW and the success of other tanks with essentially all stam gems as well.

byechee
04-15-2008, 12:20 PM
I agree. As edgewalker has proven with his success in SW and the success of other tanks with essentially all stam gems as well.

yeah, my guild has 3 bosses down and my gear is basically EH/stam gear.

i asked my healers what they preferred to heal, and that's what we came up with.

duvar
04-15-2008, 12:40 PM
Duvar, the healers also don't give a damn about how much your avoidance changes incoming DPS compared to having 0% avoidance. They care about how your gear/upgrades can change it relative to what you have now. Is that really so hard to understand?

Nope, but is it so hard to understand that adding 1% dodge will always change it by exactly the same amount of damage per second relative to what you currently have, regardless of how much you currently have? We're going in circles here, until you understand that the math I argued previously was 100% correct (which is a fact), you can't even begin to understand how to rate "effectiveness" (I challenge you to define "effectiveness", btw) of various levels of dodge/avoidance.

I've explained this probably 5 times in this thread. If you go from 50-51% dodge, you decreased incoming damage by 50 dps. If you go from 51-52% dodge, you decreased incoming damage by 50dps. If you go from 99-100% dodge, you decreased incoming damage by 50dps. Where in the thread have I compared anything to having 0% avoidance?

Naka
04-15-2008, 01:20 PM
duvar, you're absolutely correct, but


Q: Why do you want avoidance?
A: To reduce the amount of damage you take.

this is only half the truth. The more important meaning of avoidance, especially when it comes to the debate "EH vs. avoidance", is to decrease the chance of eating multiple (potentially lethal) hits in a row. And this is not linear, as Wanderlei stated here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/1060-effective-health-theory.html):

Take for example the chance that, following a hit, you will recieve three more hits as well without avoiding any of them:

At 30% avoidance, the chance is 0.7^3 or 34.3%
At 40% avoidance, the chance is 0.6^3 or 21.6%
At 50% avoidance, the chance is 12.5%
At 60% avoidance, it's 6.4%
At 70% avoidance, it would be only 2.7%

duvar
04-15-2008, 01:55 PM
Thank you for actually making sense. I will concede on that point, because I do agree with it. The problem is that people a lot of times read guides and just recall things that were written, without actually understanding why, then go around trying to use things they don't understand against people and claiming that correct math is false and that I need to go back to school.

In any case, different fights will always require different tactical and gearing requirements, and as such an "EH vs. avoidance" debate is also of questionable utility. It's like an apples or oranges debate. My intention was never to make a sweeping statement like EH is better than avoidance (or vice versa), but rather to drive home the point that analyzing everything in percentages (or for that matter, in any single arbitrary measurement) often tends to give people a false (or at the very least, a narrow) view of the big picture. There are a variety of aspects to raid survivability, and surviving against burst / spike damage is only one of many of those aspects. In some encounters, it may even be of negligible importance compared to other things.

Dots
04-15-2008, 02:38 PM
I've explained this probably 5 times in this thread. If you go from 50-51% dodge, you decreased incoming damage by 50 dps. If you go from 51-52% dodge, you decreased incoming damage by 50dps. If you go from 99-100% dodge, you decreased incoming damage by 50dps. Where in the thread have I compared anything to having 0% avoidance?

Like all the time? Say that I have 50% avoidance and take 2500dps, that is what my healers are used to. I add 1% avoidance, taking 50 damage less = 2450 dps. That is 2% less dps compared to what my healers were used to already. Got it now?
Nobody really cares if it reduces dps by 50 with every single avoidance %. Maybe you should forget about your (correct) math for a bit and think about practical in-game logic.

Xav
04-15-2008, 03:16 PM
I'd just like take this time to say that just because so and so tank in such and such endgame guild does whatever, doesn't mean it's right, or the best way. This is true for any class and any person. People may like to idolize and look up to others, but that definitely doesn't mean they're actually doing it the best way.

byechee
04-15-2008, 03:20 PM
the best way is the way that your guild consistently kills bosses with.

duvar
04-15-2008, 03:32 PM
Where in the thread have I compared anything to having 0% avoidance?
Like all the time?

lol. I dare you to quote one place in this thread where I was NOT talking about a simple increase of 1% dodge over what you previously had. I guess you just jumped to the last page of the thread and decided to weigh in without having read anything else.


Say that I have 50% avoidance and take 2500dps, that is what my healers are used to. I add 1% avoidance, taking 50 damage less = 2450 dps. That is 2% less dps compared to what my healers were used to already. Got it now?
Derr. I've agreed with that since the beginning of the thread. It thus follows that you haven't been understanding anything I've been saying. Why would you try to convince me of something I've never disputed?

Anyway, this childish argument is old. I've already been validated by multiple posters in this thread (which wasn't necessary, but at least I'm comforted knowing there's some semblance of rational thought here), so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. But please, in the future before you make posts in a theory forum, make sure you can make sound theoretical arguments instead of just shouting random assertions that having nothing to do with the points I've been making.

Naka
04-15-2008, 04:29 PM
In any case, different fights will always require different tactical and gearing requirements, and as such an "EH vs. avoidance" debate is also of questionable utility. It's like an apples or oranges debate. My intention was never to make a sweeping statement like EH is better than avoidance (or vice versa), but rather to drive home the point that analyzing everything in percentages (or for that matter, in any single arbitrary measurement) often tends to give people a false (or at the very least, a narrow) view of the big picture. There are a variety of aspects to raid survivability, and surviving against burst / spike damage is only one of many of those aspects. In some encounters, it may even be of negligible importance compared to other things.

Absolutely true.

Foolishness
04-15-2008, 06:49 PM
Duvar, i still disagree with the part where you say a healer wont care what your percentage your damage is decreased by.

If your damage decreases by half, then they will find it twice as easy to keep you alive, on average. Everything is relative. I don't understand why you need to look at it in absolute terms.

Dots
04-16-2008, 02:07 AM
Seriously Duvar, are you just arguing for argument's sake? The point you are making is absolutely meaningless for practical purposes. That is all I wanted to tell you.
And please drop that high and mighty attitude. You are not talking to stupid retards here.

Hypatia
04-16-2008, 07:57 AM
I weep for the future of humanity.

Duvar's point is clear, and it's a useful insight. Thanks, Duvar.

ttocs
04-16-2008, 10:57 AM
I will concede that it comes down to "it depends on the fight".

I believe you can get through T5 instances stacking stam/EH, the exception probably being tidewalker (though I've always seen a bear used on those). If you can get more stam on Kael, get it.

T6 instances are probably a bit the same, except Azgalor and (imo) Archimonde. However, I wasn't in a guild that was progressing on this content, it was already farming it - so that might change things.

On Sunwell, I start putting more avoidance gear on. Kalecgos I go with probably about 5-7% more avoidance. Brut I go with ~10% more, and I've held up better than my class leader, who has better gear - but he stacks stamina.

Felmyst I'm probably going to EH, from what I've experienced. S/he can hit for 10K during corrosion, but s/he hits so slow it's not nearly the issue that it is on Brutallus.

In short: You can theorycraft all you want, but it's really personal preference. Use the best tool for the job, or for your guild. I personally feel that fast hitters warrant more avoidance without gimiping stam/EH too much. Heavy magic damage warrant stam above anything, and slow hitters should use EH.

Edgewalker
04-16-2008, 03:16 PM
I'd just like take this time to say that just because so and so tank in such and such endgame guild does whatever, doesn't mean it's right, or the best way. This is true for any class and any person. People may like to idolize and look up to others, but that definitely doesn't mean they're actually doing it the best way.

The most true thing in the thread.

Fryswithat
04-16-2008, 03:26 PM
Yeah but now we have the Magt trinket +58stm and a built in Oh shit button

Deathsong on BlackDragonF
04-28-2008, 06:35 AM
FYI
If you vendored your Badge of the Violet, you can easily get it back.
but it costs you one of those hidden Kool-aid points that the GMs use to re-attain your lost gear.

Makaroff
05-03-2008, 11:57 PM
i tend to go for avoidance, simply because of two reasons:
1) an extra hit from boss who hits your for no less than 6k can be hardly compensated by your stamina efforts. dumping everything on my war and putting only stamina gems give no more than 3.5K. versus solid 2% to dodge, 2% to parry and crapload more % to block 600 off hit.
and 2) Even if you just go insane and manage to collect a set what gives you 25 K health on account of pure avoidance, imagine heal's sweat and swearing of being OOM healing you...