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View Full Version : Move over, Sun Eater.



Roana
02-29-2008, 02:17 AM
Quickening Blade of the Prince.

From heroic mode Kael'thas.

Klimpen
02-29-2008, 02:21 AM
Erm, what?

The Sun Eater is an avoidance weapon. The best avoidance weapon in the game, in fact. Quite different to that threat weapon.

Roana
02-29-2008, 02:34 AM
Erm, what?

The Sun Eater is an avoidance weapon. The best avoidance weapon in the game, in fact. Quite different to that threat weapon.

I know that. I am talking about tanking weapons obtainable through 5-mans, which up to now were effectively capped at some 80 DPS. Avoidance can generally be found in plentiful supply on other pieces of tanking gear. Threat, not so much.

Edit: I guess what excites me is that they finally break the 90 DPS light barrier for non-raiding tanks such as myself. When you deal with overgeared DPS, this is a lot more helpful than another percent or two of avoidance (of which I already have more than I really need for most purposes).

Ciderhelm
02-29-2008, 03:18 AM
Should finally get to hear people complaining about something other than Suneater.

Narshe
02-29-2008, 03:26 AM
Nice skin, but I still like the Warp-Storm Warblade better :P

Apart from that, it's a nice threat piece, but lacks of expertise. :(

Taelas
02-29-2008, 03:56 AM
When you come down to it, what matters on a weapon is the damage range and the speed -- the other stats are much less important; you can get them elsewhere.

That sword is extremely good... In fact, I'd say it's better than King's Defender. It is certainly on par.

Psysica
02-29-2008, 04:36 AM
As in many other cases it is hard to compare one item over another. Depends on what you shall overcome.

King = All-round weapon a little threat, a little EH.

Sun = no threat boost, but avoidance.

QBP = Threat boost mainly.

If you have the change grab em all... :) If you as above says dont raid and only do 5 man. This is a very welcome item. You can then obtain a threat and a avoidance weapon then. (Epic ones). That field was pretty narrow before. So all in all, a nice ekstra item which has been needed, not a replacement to any, imo.

Jericho
02-29-2008, 04:44 AM
Not quite sure I understand you saying that its as good as KD. The new weapon the OP posted is by far a phenomenal threat weapon. However, the "the other stats are much less important; you can get them elsewhere" comment just doesn't sit well with me.

At the level in which you'd be using the KD, there are very few places you are going to be finding +hit on any tanking pieces. Up until 2.3, tanks really didn't see +hit on tanking pieces outside of T6 content other than from ALD and Frayed Tether of the Drowned (forgive me I do not know how to do the mouseover link thing). The added armor is also hard to find in a Tier4 environment.

As for this new sword itself, its an awesome threat piece. It is definitely worth using in a Kara environment, where by virtue of Badge gear you do have a bit more of an advantage. However, you do need to be intelligent about your weapon choices for certain activities. If I was a new Kara tank I would be using KD vs NB and Prince. Remember that you need to balance your threat output with the mitigation/avoidance. There is no need to suffer in terms of mitigation when your DPS cant reach you with your Mitigation/Avoidance weapon.

Signu
02-29-2008, 06:03 AM
I used Latro's Shifting Sword for a long time. The threat from a 1.4 speed weapon with expertise (back then it was Sword Skill) was beautiful.

Ceravantes
02-29-2008, 06:12 AM
The last thing I am swapping out for avoidance is a weapon, give me threat stats any day, especially if i am running around in avoidance gear.

one a side not, jericho, you do itemm links like this with the item name inbetween the brackets.

Taelas
02-29-2008, 06:20 AM
Not quite sure I understand you saying that its as good as KD. The new weapon the OP posted is by far a phenomenal threat weapon. However, the "the other stats are much less important; you can get them elsewhere" comment just doesn't sit well with me.
It's true, though. Only the damage range and the weapon speed are irreplacable. You can get more threat from other pieces, or more mitigation, whichever you prefer.


At the level in which you'd be using the KD, there are very few places you are going to be finding +hit on any tanking pieces. Up until 2.3, tanks really didn't see +hit on tanking pieces outside of T6 content other than from ALD and Frayed Tether of the Drowned (forgive me I do not know how to do the mouseover link thing). The added armor is also hard to find in a Tier4 environment.
Item links are [/b]]<itemname>[/item].

It's not that I disagree, I just don't find +hit to be that important. The added armor is a bonus, sure, but it's not a deal breaker.

[item]Brooch of Deftness is a far better threat piece than Frayed Tether of the Drowned, by the way -- and much, much easier to get.


As for this new sword itself, its an awesome threat piece. It is definitely worth using in a Kara environment, where by virtue of Badge gear you do have a bit more of an advantage. However, you do need to be intelligent about your weapon choices for certain activities. If I was a new Kara tank I would be using KD vs NB and Prince. Remember that you need to balance your threat output with the mitigation/avoidance. There is no need to suffer in terms of mitigation when your DPS cant reach you with your Mitigation/Avoidance weapon.
Of course you need to balance your weapon choice according to the encounter you're facing, but Quickening Blade of the Prince is a better threat weapon than King's Defender, and thus, I'd use it over KD in most situations.

Ciderhelm
02-29-2008, 06:24 AM
It is really hard to think of situations where I want a substantially inferior weapon just to pick up some Armor or Avoidance.

For the same reason you wouldn't argue The Hungering Cold is inferior to Quel'Serrar, you wouldn't argue this. Quickening Blade of the Prince is such a substantial gain in Threat potential that it outweighs The Sun Eater on a practical level.

Tatt
02-29-2008, 09:00 AM
I think Roana is just excited that she doesn't have to look at Heroic Mechanar ever again!

Jylina
02-29-2008, 10:49 AM
Brooch of Deftness is a far better threat piece than Frayed Tether of the Drowned, by the way -- and much, much easier to get.


While i think his patch number might have been wrong, Brooch of Deftness is one of the pieces added that he was referring to when he said pre-<insert patch number here> it wasn't available until very recently so Frayed Tether was the best at the time.

Cipher
02-29-2008, 10:56 AM
Should finally get to hear people complaining about something other than Suneater.

What do people complain about with the Sun Eater? is there something wrong with the sword?

Jylina
02-29-2008, 10:59 AM
My money is on the terrible drop rate some people have seen, the horror stories of "I've run it every day since I hit 70 and no drop" and the like.

which is always followed by the jerks who respond with "I got it on my first run QQ more nub"

veneretio
02-29-2008, 11:12 AM
What do people complain about with the Sun Eater? is there something wrong with the sword?
People complain because they don't have it not because it's not good enough.

That being said I agree this new sword is better however keep in mind that this new 5 man may be substantially harder than any heroic to date and be quite a trying task for a tank at the level of gear where they actually desire Sun Eater (or this new, superior sword).

spagarogous
02-29-2008, 12:07 PM
how about inuuro's blade. kinda nice for a rep reward as a tank threat weapon for non raiding tanks. much better imo for aggro than any of the other blues.

Roana
02-29-2008, 12:55 PM
how about inuuro's blade. kinda nice for a rep reward as a tank threat weapon for non raiding tanks. much better imo for aggro than any of the other blues.

Actually, Honor's Call and Warbringer are generally the better options (situationally, a couple of other weapons, too, such as the S1 main hands for low-rage situations). For an orc in particular, Warbringer is likely to be a better choice than the Sun Eater or maybe even King's Defender for anything where you don't require every last ounce of mitigation.

ebs2002
02-29-2008, 01:51 PM
As an Orc, once I discovered the Warbringer, I stopped caring about getting the Sun Eater (I ran it 23 times without seeing it drop...that was when I stopped counting. I've been there a few times since and still haven't seen it).

If I got the KD (poor luck with getting that to drop, too), I'm not sure if I would swap it out, since the +5expertise (a little more than the badge bracers/neck, I believe) just can't be beat. With it, I've nearly reached the expertise softcap (badge bracers, neck, warbringer, and defiance).

If I ever hit exalted with Lower City, and I pick up the ring there, I may consider getting the KD or something better. Probably not, though.

spagarogous
02-29-2008, 02:38 PM
im about to reroll alli as a human tank. abunch of my friends talked me into it. so the rep grind will go alittle better. but which ever comes 1st ill go with. ive had the SE with goose on it for about 4 months now and even if the KD droppes for my tauren, im not sure i would be over joyed. when goose procs with the SE the buff to agi/dodge is nice.

granted honor's call is sweet for hum tanks with the + sword skill already, but of my main two toons, i never really was crazy about grinding thrallmar rep. i really hated all those 5 mans places. maybe with the +rep bonus ill change my mind.

Jericho
02-29-2008, 04:43 PM
Of course you need to balance your weapon choice according to the encounter you're facing, but Quickening Blade of the Prince is a better threat weapon than King's Defender, and thus, I'd use it over KD in most situations.

Like I said, personally, there is absolutely no reason to suffer in terms of mitigation on fights where you do not need to produce huge amounts of threat. Certain encounters are just not made for DPS to push you. Azgalor and Mother Shahraz are the best two examples in T6. Because of the mechanics of the encounter (Silence, Fatal Attraction) your threat lead from the first 10-30 seconds of the fight, only seems to grow as the fight lasts if you are going on all out on threat. These bosses hit hard, and I would never use my threat weapon on them after the first minute or so. For the dps races however, "the damage range and the weapon speed" are immaterial to the added EH/Avoidance a weapon can give you. Personally, I saw my The Sun Eater well before I saw my King's Defender. I switched to KD and never looked back.

That being said, this weapon comes at a time in 90% of people's raid progression that KD is an extremely adequate threat producer. If your raid isn't threat capped, then your mitigation weapon should be your threat weapon. "Situational" Weapons are good when you are in a place to be forced to use threat over mitigation.

As for my comment about the Tether. I was correct (honestly, dunno which patch number ZA was, thought it was 2.3 but meh), in saying that before that patch we literally had 3 pieces of specific tank gear with hit on it. (Four if you count the Fireguard set of BS swords.) Blizzard finally realized that we need some threat stats. Adding the bracers and the neckpiece to badges helped us with hit, but that is still to say that before then we had bubkiss.

All in all The Sun Eater was good for me for a while. King's Defender is infinitely better in terms of an EH build and provides extra threat on multiple accounts. This new sword provides a chunk of new threat, but if you do not need to produce more because your dps are far from your current cap, its useless. Its a nice piece for your epeen when you can hit high tps numbers, but if you are taking more damage because your not using a weapon with decent EH or Avoidance, then its moot.

Brucimus
03-02-2008, 02:11 PM
Akil'zon's Talonblade how does this bad boy stack up for threat against the Quickening blade?

Ciderhelm
03-02-2008, 02:14 PM
There's a few rare situations where Quickening would be better Brucimus, specifically places like Aran where Armor is so low anyway. Akil'zon would be superior in most places.

Someone can run the math on that if they want, though. That's just a hunch on my part.

Jibou
03-03-2008, 03:21 AM
Yeah I was mostly wondering how
Mallet of the tides
Akil'zon's talonblade
and the Kael blade compared in threat.

I would still prefer mallet of the tides just because of the awesome expertise, and you really can't pass on that.
The Talonblade is nice for threat too, but I don't quite know how it compares to the new heroic sword.

Marn
03-03-2008, 05:20 AM
Expertise on weapon is going to be less important as more gear becomes available with expertise on it. I mean having it on your weapon is nice, but I think what Blizzard is planning on doing is trying to create a larger pool of weapons for us to use that will work with any racial abilities we have, and put more emphasis on the weapon's speed, and other stats. Also more weapons are becoming available at all levels of progression except for the mid-early raiding scene where it's pretty much just Mallet of the Tides.

Eventually I think Blizzard is gonna release a perfect tanking weapon and it will be from badges or something; of course in general it's a good idea to have a slow weapon for heavy hitting devastates when you're offtanking like in Voidreaver or any other situation where you aren't spamming heroic strike.

Irghen
04-10-2008, 05:33 PM
How about for Heroics/Kara? I rarely do 25-men or ZA (although I intend to fix that) so i don't really have acces to the Mallet.

I'm very tempted enchant it with Executioneer and use them this way:
Quickening +Exec for trash
King's Defender +Mongoose for Heroic Bosses/ZA runs
Sun Eater +Mongoose for Raid offtanking

Besides, so far the Quickening feels beastly for farming purposes, it hits harder than the Spiteblade, Devastates fine (in MH) and Whirlwinds pretty nice (in OH).

How does it fare as a fury weapon?

Madoxx
04-11-2008, 12:40 AM
Yeah I was mostly wondering how
Mallet of the tides
Akil'zon's talonblade
and the Kael blade compared in threat.

I would still prefer mallet of the tides just because of the awesome expertise, and you really can't pass on that.
The Talonblade is nice for threat too, but I don't quite know how it compares to the new heroic sword.


aye id be interested in this too as i mainly us the Mallet of the tides for tanking these days too

Mornak
04-11-2008, 08:11 AM
Maybe I'm just too anxious to try out Executioner. I currently have an un/non-enchanted Akil'zon's Talonblade that I use on trash, etc. I've been thinking of coughing up the money for Executioner on this. The MT in my guild uses the Quickening Blade of the Prince on trash, and he really likes the weapon. Of course about the time I enchant the ZA sword the one from MgT will drop. Do you think the ZA sword is worth Executioner, should I wait for MgT sword first, or is either even worthy of the enchant?

We are currently 3/4 TK and 2/6 SSC. I am using The Sun Eater with Mongoose as my main tanking weapon, as Kings Defender hasn't dropped for me in about 10 months of Karazhan. We haven't seen a Mallet of the Tides from Lurker either.

Malignus
04-11-2008, 10:00 AM
Blade of Serration is also a decent upgrade for anyone having bad luck with Sun Eater or the new sword off Kael. The speed is slightly on the high end, but at 103 DPS, it's a solid upgrade for anyone with a blue tanking weapon.

Mornak
04-14-2008, 12:05 PM
So I went ahead and got Executioner on my Akil'zon's Talonblade over the weekend. I really don't notice anything different as far as tps, etc. And the damn sword doesn't even glow like it was supposed to, lol. Oh well.

Kazeyonoma
04-14-2008, 02:49 PM
picked up the blade from kael this weekend. Not sure what to enchant with it. probably executioner, but is it worth spending the gold on? Hrm... My only other tanking weapon right now is my sun eater so it'd be a toss up between a threat fight or an avoidance fight.

Malignus
04-14-2008, 03:29 PM
It's a dagger though - aren't daggers supposed to be not a good choice if you use devastate?
Daggers are generally known for being fast hitting, with low damage. Compare it to modern tanking weapon stats.

ebs2002
04-14-2008, 04:00 PM
It's a dagger though - aren't daggers supposed to be not a good choice if you use devastate?

Yes and no. The loss you see with devastate is the Attack Power damage bonus. You'll still get the innate threat from a devastate, and you'll still get the sunder-stack threat bonus from devastate. Also, all yellow attacks get bonus damage from attack power (it's a set added DPS, just like it is for your white damage). Yellow attacks, however, have their own cooldowns independent of the weapon's attack speed, so to do the math the game has to pick an attack-speed for the weapon. Daggers are given 1.7, Other 1h'ers are given 2.4.

This means that, with +50dps from your attack power (around 800 attack power), you get an extra 120dmg (50*2.4) with a sword, and 85dmg (50*1.7) with a dagger. Each extra point of damage gives you 1.5 threat, which means you generate 35dmg * 1.5threat * 2devs/rotation / 6secs/rotation = 17 threat per second more (assuming a SS>Rev>Dev>Dev rotation). This doesn't take into account the extra damage you get from crits using a sword vs a dagger (pretty negligable as a warrior).

Those are the downsides. This is assuming the weapons have the same attack speed and damage per second.

If the dagger is faster, you're losing more damage on the devastate, but you can HS quicker (less chance of rage overflow, more threat in an endless rage situation).

Finally, a large chunk of your weapon's threat comes from its raw DPS. Each point of DPS upgrade corresponds to 1.5 threat per second (not counting your attack power), regardless of if it's a dagger or a sword.

For reference, I plugged in Blade of Serration and King's Defender into a spreadsheet I made to compare their threat (independent of +hit, +crit, +ap, etc).

At 900 attack power, the Blade caps out at 15TPS higher than the KD, and averages about 13TPS more. At 700 Attack Power, you're averaging 17TPS more and capping out at 21TPS more. For them to be equal, you'd need to have roughly 1500 attack power.

The spreadsheet was pretty rudimentary:
for Capped TPS: 1.5 * (AP/14 + Wpn_DPS) + (1.5 * (AP/14 * Wpn_Mod + Wpn_Max_DMG/2) /3) (the /3 is because you get 2devs every 6secs, which means 1/3 dev each second)
where Wpn_DPS = 103.1, Wpn_Mod = 1.7, and Wpn_Max_DMG = 241 on the Dagger

Min DPS calculated using Wpn_Min_DMG, and Avg_TPS calculated by averagine Wpn_Max and Wpn_Min.

******

If you didn't want to read all that math, the summary is: Daggers aren't necessarily bad. a 100dps 1.6spd Sword > 100dps 1.6spd Dagger always, but a 100dps 1.8spd dagger > 87dps 1.6spd Sword if your AP is 1500 or less (assuming all other threat stats are equal). The blade of serration is better than King's Defender in generating threat for all practical concerns.