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View Full Version : Illidan, Shear and Shield Block



Troxed
02-28-2008, 10:45 AM
Let me start out by saying Hello. This is my first post. I have been reading posts here for quite a while and this is the first time that I have needed to post a question that I couldn't find the answer to here. The example I am going to use for my question is on Illidan. My guild has killed Illidan numerous times and it is usually a 1 shot so this is not a "HALP US WITH ILLIDAN" post.

My question is about Shield block.

Last night on Illidan we were at 10% and there was 3 seconds before he went into demon form. He started casting a shear and I shield blocked like the thousands of times before. My stats with shield block active are 30% to dodge, 23% to parry and 104.88% to block. With shield block active I took the shear and he 1 shot me (we dont run to traps, they are always across the room so he was enraged). I guess there are 2 parts to my question. How did the shear hit me when I had 104.88% to block? Can someone calculate the chances of me getting hit with shear with 30% to dodge, 23% parry and 105% to block.

I thought I read something a while back about the bosses hit rating and you need 106% to block to guarentee that you block the attack. We went through the combat logs and grim reaper reports and my shield block was active when the shear went up on me. More or less I just want to know why it happened and see what the chances of something like that happening are.

Narshe
02-28-2008, 11:03 AM
Illidan's shear can be dodged, parried and blocked, the only thing it can't never happen is a Shear missed. Then you just need your dodge+parry+block to be 102,40% to avoid getting sheared.
The 25% of block needed for Illidan is a myth and if you read any of those articles in this site you should have known this.

However and answering your question:
- You could have not been facing Illidan properly.
- Latency could have make your shield block buff comes a millisecond after shear hitting you.
- Some times Illidan bugs its own cast and double cast its shear. Specially after he enrages in phase 5. I have seen a lot of times Illidan casting shear, then enraging, then casting another one.

If you logs your combatlog maybe we could check if it was a latency issue or another factor involving it.

Troxed
02-28-2008, 12:09 PM
Well, I guess that solves that. I did notice when he was casting shear that it was about 1/2 way through the cast and the cast started over. Shield block was still up when the shear went off but it almost looked like Illidan took spell knock back (which is impossible). I knew that shear couldn't miss so thats why I was thinking about the hit rating or whatever and over 100% to block.

Troxed
02-28-2008, 12:12 PM
We do logs for WWS every night but last nights haven't been posted yet. I will get that for you as soon as we get it up. I didn't log last nights raid for some reason but other people did.

Highfather
02-28-2008, 01:35 PM
Short answer - yes, Shear can go through shield block buff (both charges up) while you are facing Illidan.

Long answer - our guild has been farming Illidan for over 4 months, I'm the MT and I've tanked him all the times except for 2-3 kills where I swapped with an OT to experience stage 2 adds tanking. I personally take care of the WWS logging and parsing so all our kills are tracked.

Usually everything is alright and Shear has never been a problem except those 3 times. During these months of farming and as you said "thousands of shears blocked" there were 3 noticeable cases when Shear was able to go through my shield block buff. I do not rely merely on human perception so of course I log and parse all boss fights and in all 3 cases (which happened on different days) my combat log was clear - "you gain Shield Block" - about 300-600 milliseconds later "you are affected by Shear" followed by "Shield Block fades from you" a few seconds later. Note that I've checked all my Illidan parses and my shield block buff is always up 300-600 milliseconds before the shear cast ends so at first glimpse there is no difference between what usually happens (and is supposed to happen) and those 3 times mentioned above.

Why is that? I can not give a straight answer. My guess is that its either a rare bug or the server side check for my buff gain (shield blcok in this case) is performed after the debuff gain check due to slight lag somewhere on the route.

All I can say atm is that I have experienced the event of Shear going through my shield block buff while I am standing still facing Illidan - proven by my own perception and by the combat log. Although extremely rare - it does happen.

(for the record - I play with 40-45 FPS and 60-70 ms latency in raids)

Troxed
02-28-2008, 02:56 PM
Thats is more on track with the kind of answer I was expecting. I was hoping to find something that I could do to prevent it from ever happening again but I was afraid that was going to be the case. The same thing happened on our very first night a while back but I wrote it off as not having 100% block. I can't stand when unexplainable things like that happen because I feel like I am making an excuse. But I guess its just one of those things. Kinda like when Sanguinar got 4 crushing blows on me each for the exact same amount all in the same millisecond. But I will save that one for another thread sometime.

Narshe
02-28-2008, 10:16 PM
That could have been more of a Parry-gib situation.

Troxed
02-28-2008, 10:40 PM
That could have been more of a Parry-gib situation.

Thats what I thought it was at first too, but we went through the logs and I didn't even get a hit off, as soon as he spawned he 1 shot me only later to find out it was 4 crushing blows in the same swing. It was almost like he swung a millisecond before he even became hostile.

Nicki
02-29-2008, 05:20 AM
Thats what I thought it was at first too, but we went through the logs and I didn't even get a hit off, as soon as he spawned he 1 shot me only later to find out it was 4 crushing blows in the same swing. It was almost like he swung a millisecond before he even became hostile.

we talking about illidan?

he cant crush.......

Troxed
02-29-2008, 05:47 AM
we talking about illidan?

he cant crush.......

No, that was Sanguinar on Kael, which is why I said I would save it for another thread. Sorry for the confusion.

Nicki
02-29-2008, 06:02 AM
xD i must catch up my sleep

Troxed
02-29-2008, 06:53 AM
xD i must catch up my sleep

same, sleep is good.

Edgewalker
03-14-2008, 01:39 PM
The shear double cast can happen, but still rarely effects whether or not you actually get sheared. The more likely scenario is latency, the same effect that occurs when an NS heal hits a tank for 10,000 before he dies in a combat log, or a boss hits a paladin for 23,000 critical as Divine Shield goes off, and the paladin never takes a point of damage.

Narshe
03-15-2008, 04:07 PM
I have another experience. My last Hydross kill (attunement run) we decided I could stay for like --- 25% of the boss in the same stage. So Hydross got the nasty debuff stacked I can't remember how many times.

Well.... I got hit for 23k damage and I didn't die... but in my resistance gear I have 20k HP with all buffs.... so explain it if you can :P

Xav
03-16-2008, 11:22 PM
I have another experience. My last Hydross kill (attunement run) we decided I could stay for like --- 25% of the boss in the same stage. So Hydross got the nasty debuff stacked I can't remember how many times.

Well.... I got hit for 23k damage and I didn't die... but in my resistance gear I have 20k HP with all buffs.... so explain it if you can :P

I've had extremely odd stuff like that happen before too. Way back in the day, on my rogue in MC, I was stealthing around and aggroed a surger, and it started beating the hell out of me, but my vanish cooldown wasn't up yet. Anyway, I finally vanished, and then looked at my combat log, and I took something like 9000 damage when I only had 4000 hp. And I obviously didn't get any heals, and the server wasn't lagging.

ImageShack - Hosting :: hacksvw2.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hacksvw2.jpg)

I can't believe I even still have that picture stashed away.

Anyway, exceptionally weird server behaviour just happens sometimes :|

Malignus
03-19-2008, 04:10 PM
It's all Jaeden's fault imo.

Kaganda
03-19-2008, 05:03 PM
It's all Jaeden's fault imo.

Agreed.

Moraval
03-20-2008, 09:40 AM
This exact same thing happened to us last night on Illidan. I have posted a screen shot of the Recount log after the fact. I might understand if the shear and the shield block were cast withing milliseconds of each other, then possibly there could be syncing problems. However, in this log, you can clearly see that the SB was applied a half a second PRIOR to the shear hitting.

Log
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9906/illidanshearlogfb8.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=illidanshearlogfb8.jpg)

Full size screen shot
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8003/wowscrnshot031908234038zi4.jpg

Stroja
03-20-2008, 01:03 PM
I had problems on my first few attempts - but I noticed I had a really, really large number of buffs. Examining combat log showed some of the most recent ones falling off much earlier than they should (notably: Holy Shield falling off after 3 seconds without expending a single charge).

It may not be the exact reason or this the perfect solution, but I started removing unnecessary buffs (AI, Spirit, BoW, weapon oil) and the problem seemed to go away.

Xav
03-20-2008, 10:35 PM
This exact same thing happened to us last night on Illidan. I have posted a screen shot of the Recount log after the fact. I might understand if the shear and the shield block were cast withing milliseconds of each other, then possibly there could be syncing problems. However, in this log, you can clearly see that the SB was applied a half a second PRIOR to the shear hitting.

Log
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9906/illidanshearlogfb8.th.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=illidanshearlogfb8.jpg)

Full size screen shot
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8003/wowscrnshot031908234038zi4.jpg

This is a little bit different. For one thing, the combat log timers aren't exact, and often aren't actually accurate or very truthful. I don't know why this is, but it's consistent, and can be proven rather easily by observing combat log parses. Basically, the combat log seems to estimate when events are actually happening, within a one second window, and assigns a number to it. I don't believe the actual wow client supports active accurate logging on any intervals of a smaller value than 1 second.

Because of that, your shield block may have been cast only *very* slightly before the Shear, and then due to latency and client/server not being perfectly synced, cause you to get shear since you didn't actually have the shield block stats buffed on the server yet. That's what I would assume happened, anyway. Due to shear's 1.5 second cast, I'm always hitting SB at least a second before it hits, unless I'm short rage and then have to do bloodrage first.

This isn't to discredit or downplay the oddities with Shear that do actually happen, and other weird Illidan behaviour (since I've experienced it too), but I kind of just wanted to point out that I wouldn't put much faith into timespans displayed by any combat log parser. (This is why whenever I look at a log I go only by the seconds and attempt to logically deduce when stuff happened)


I had problems on my first few attempts - but I noticed I had a really, really large number of buffs. Examining combat log showed some of the most recent ones falling off much earlier than they should (notably: Holy Shield falling off after 3 seconds without expending a single charge).

It may not be the exact reason or this the perfect solution, but I started removing unnecessary buffs (AI, Spirit, BoW, weapon oil) and the problem seemed to go away.


They raised the buff cap to some obscenely high number some time ago, more than a year now, I think. I haven't heard of any buffs being knocked off due to having too many since then. This is also when I actively raided engame during TBC's early launch when getting every single buff you possibly can was common for some of the more pleasant 1.0 versions of the bosses. This is a screenshot of an old Al'ar kill, all of my own buffs aren't even listed, nor are anyone else's, since my unit frames weren't set to show more than like 16 or something fairly small. (You can't even see my int, or the tank's ironshields, etc). Nothing was ever pushed off anyone in these type of raids, where you could stack obscene numbers of buffs/consumables together.

ImageShack - Hosting :: buffsdh8.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=buffsdh8.jpg)

Nicki
03-21-2008, 05:38 AM
argh whyd you blur out the epeeen meter xav we wanted to see how good a healbot you are :D

and wow old screenshot wyndryder quit didnt he? (well lots of spriests quit...)

Caulle
03-21-2008, 06:19 AM
Isn't Troxed the raid leader with that awesome sound board?

Xav
03-21-2008, 06:20 AM
Well the top name was me, but I blurred it cause it was irrelevent and would have detracted from the picture if the context wasn't understood, etc :p I have the original

and yeah Troxed is "the angry soundboard guy"

Caulle
03-21-2008, 06:22 AM
and yeah Troxed is "the angry soundboard guy"

I'm sorry, it was good, but only worth about an 8 out of 10. 9 tops. The Onyxia guy still retains the 10/10 for me.

Ariedan
03-21-2008, 08:45 AM
Yeah, the Onyxia guy had a horrid accent, which made it considerably more amusing.

Kaganda
03-21-2008, 09:26 AM
Sebudai > both of them IMO.

Caulle
03-21-2008, 11:20 AM
Sebudai > both of them IMO.

I didn't quite feel the full effect of him without a sound board or vent recording to be honest.

Kaganda
03-24-2008, 07:00 PM
I didn't quite feel the full effect of him without a sound board or vent recording to be honest.

Anyone can yell and get upset, but fewer people can find so many ways to say you suck. :)

Annatar
04-03-2008, 02:58 AM
i love troxed!
ARE YOU STUPID???


HELLO???

THAT IS A SERIOUS FKING QUESTION!!!

Eldest
07-02-2008, 09:08 AM
I am the guild leader of a relatively big guild on Thrall server. I have a MT who does not spec into deflection (He doesn't like it). We do not force specs so we have be letting him in with the 0/15/x spec he prefers. It hasn't been an issue really. Till now...

We are on Illidan and he is getting sheared. Not every time, but usually. He is stubborn and thinks that it is only because he doesn't have the 4 set T6 bonus. He is stubborn but he is not stupid and a damn good tank. He has shield blocks up, doesn't miss assignments and is usually on top of things.

I read on elitistjerks forums that you need 66.5% with dodge+parry+block. Is this true? Needless to say, he is not meeting the minimum requirements and can easily make it up by speccing 5/5 deflection. However, before confronting him, I need to know whether elitistjerks.com is right?

Any help will be highly appreciated.

phaze
07-02-2008, 10:07 AM
I have a MT who does not spec into deflection (He doesn't like it).

Get a new MT, if the current one isn't interested in improving their survivability. You don't force specs, but neither are you forced to take them along with their poor talent choices. I'm sure you can find someone else who is interested.



We are on Illidan and he is getting sheared. Not every time, but usually. ... He has shield blocks up

Possibly trying to keep SB active at all times? Which then results in the charges getting eaten just before a Shear. Tying into the first part: charges get used faster with less avoidance, which is already a known problem with your MT.

Illidan can't crush, so save SB for the Shear cast.



I read on elitistjerks forums that you need 66.5% with dodge+parry+block. Is this true?
They're talking about Paladin tanks. Holy Shield + Libram = ~35% block, so they need that much baseline D/P/B to push the Shear hits off the table.

The +75% block from Shield Block is more than enough to make a Prot Warrior safe from Shear with even the most rudimentary gearing....if used at the right time.

Kamani
07-02-2008, 10:11 AM
I am the guild leader of a relatively big guild on Thrall server. I have a MT who does not spec into deflection (He doesn't like it). We do not force specs so we have be letting him in with the 0/15/x spec he prefers. It hasn't been an issue really. Till now...

We are on Illidan and he is getting sheared. Not every time, but usually. He is stubborn and thinks that it is only because he doesn't have the 4 set T6 bonus. He is stubborn but he is not stupid and a damn good tank. He has shield blocks up, doesn't miss assignments and is usually on top of things.

I read on elitistjerks forums that you need 66.5% with dodge+parry+block. Is this true? Needless to say, he is not meeting the minimum requirements and can easily make it up by speccing 5/5 deflection. However, before confronting him, I need to know whether elitistjerks.com is right?

Any help will be highly appreciated.

Never heard of that number and it makes no logical sense. But if your tank doesn't get deflection he is an absolute fool. Along with having a problem getting sheared it makes me thing the guy is rather unintelligent.

At any rate, what was that mod in the screenshot on page 2?

Kazeyonoma
07-02-2008, 10:27 AM
I've never read that you need that number, interesting though, can you link the EJ thread?

Eldest
07-02-2008, 10:46 AM
The Illidan Thread (was "Flames of Azzinoth Question") - Page 31 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t15397-illidan_thread_flames_azzinoth_question/p31/#768)

Kazeyonoma
07-02-2008, 10:52 AM
Hrm, that doesn't sound right, maybe it's for paladins, because a warrior hitting shield block gives him +75% block right away. That easily pushes shear off the table.

Rak
07-02-2008, 11:47 AM
What the heck does 4 piece t6 have to do with blocking shears?

Kazeyonoma
07-02-2008, 01:27 PM
That's what I thought Rak O_o.

ebs2002
07-02-2008, 02:46 PM
Maybe he's trying to shield slam through the shears instead of shield blocking them? *shrug*

Xav
07-02-2008, 09:10 PM
Sounds like an idiot (well, he is an idiot, brutally obvious if he's not going 8 points into arms, as a tank). And he's probably trying to get more loot (do you not default loot or something?) by claiming that somehow 4 piece T6 will prevent him from being sheared.

Truly horrifying to think about.

Not getting sheared is nothing more than hitting shield block as soon as you see the cast, and then not turning your back. You can still get sheared if the server's desynced/laggy/you're lagging, etc, even if it says you get the buff. It's not common though.

Heavyhammer
07-10-2008, 05:17 PM
Illidan's shear can be dodged, parried and blocked, the only thing it can't never happen is a Shear missed. Then you just need your dodge+parry+block to be 102,40% to avoid getting sheared.
The 25% of block needed for Illidan is a myth and if you read any of those articles in this site you should have known this.

Its not 102.4%. You need 101.8% to avoid Shear. Illidan cant "miss" Shear, so you do not add the "miss" of 0.6% of a level 73 mob.

So with SB all you need is a 26.8% combined dodge/parry/block as a warrior, which im pretty sure you do... ;)

For Prot Paladins, they need 71.8% combined dodge/parry/block or 66.47% with Libram of Repentance, which is very easily attainable.

Garbid
07-11-2008, 09:31 PM
If sheer is getting through and your not getting parried, try looking for other meele dps/pets getting parried that causes parry gibs to eat up the shield block charges just before shear hits.

Heavyhammer
07-13-2008, 07:29 PM
If sheer is getting through and your not getting parried, try looking for other meele dps/pets getting parried that causes parry gibs to eat up the shield block charges just before shear hits.

Illidan isnt attacking while he is casting Shear and he said he SB when Illidan started casting.


He started casting a shear and I shield blocked like the thousands of times before.

I would just put it down to bad luck mate, or lag or slight coding problem. But im willing to bet you will probably never see it happen again.