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Jericho
02-27-2008, 05:51 PM
Alright... As the topic suggests I am looking for a way to increase threat in BT encounters.

I am a high avoidance tank, I was literally unable to obtain many block rating/value pieces in SSC/TK and thus I am kind of SOL in terms of gaining a real SBV set without repeatedly going into ZA and praying for a pair of boots/shoulders to drop for me (which they never have). So here's the rub ... as we get more and more gear from BT/Hyjal I am having issues keeping up with the Jones' so to speak. Our top two mages are getting threat capped rather quickly (and while yes some of this is their inability to use Invis correctly added to them having heroism 100% of the time and me virtually never having the shaman in the group...). So here I am looking for some suggestions on gear choices.

My general stats:
51-55% Avoidance
20-23% Block
95 Hit
21-25 Expertise
~400 SBV.

My questions:

1) Which weapon to use for threat?
Currently, I pretty exclusively use The Unbreakable Will with a mongoose enchant. My normal setup puts me at 21 Expertise with this weapon but I can push it to 25 while losing ~2% avoidance and a chunk of EH. I have my old Mallet of Tides, would using it over the TUW be a better choice for a threat weapon just based on the added Expertise? Or would the damage lost by going to a lighter hitting weapon offset that? I also have access to a Talonblade, but I'd think that 4 Expertise is flat out better than some haste and raw AP. Is slapping Executioner on the Mallet/Talonblade and using it for threat fights gonna be better for me than using TUW?

2) Is it worth sacrificing EH AND Avoidance for Block Rating and SBV?
Like I said, I do not have many options in terms of SBV Gear. The choices of gear swaps I have is pretty much:

Praetorian Legguards >> Unwavering Legguards (-hit for +SBV/Rating)
Gauntlets of Enforcement >> T5 Gloves (-Expertise for +SBV/Rating/AP/Crit)
DM:Vengeance >> Autoblocker (-EH for +SBV)
Moroes >> Autoblocker (-2% Avoidance/Oh Crap Button for + SBV)
T5 Helm >> Battleworn Tuskguard (-AP/-Crit/-Armor/-4.7% Avoidance for +4.3% block andd 51 SBV

3) Is it worth taking an older shield like ALD and enchanting it for TPS?
I have several shields atm. Anything from the SR/FR heroic MT shield, Nightbane shield and the ALD to work from. Would it be of value to put a tough shield enchant on one of these and use it for TPS fights? Compared to my KHH, the Nightbane shield with a tough shield enchant would gain only 13 SBV before talents. Is that worth the EH hit, even for a TPS encounter?

All in all I wish to increase my TPS. My raid makeup generally has me in a group made up of Tank Warrior, Tank Warrior, Tank Warrior, Paladin, Warlock. While this is nice for increasing EH with Devo and Imp, the only thing it does for TPS is when we have our Draenei Paladin in the raid and I get the 1% hit. On rare occasions where raising the threat cap is incredibly important (ie Phase 3 of RoS) I am afforded a shaman, but rarely. Alot of fights I really have no issue with, but for some ... I know I can lower my avoidance for mediocre level fights like Rage/Anetheron/Kaz, but Im hesitant to do so for a fight like RoS. Any suggestions would help.

Bigstik
02-27-2008, 06:00 PM
First, your raid leader should compensate for weaknesses. There is no point in every threat-capped mage having WoA and ToW from an enhancement shaman when they can no longer deal damage due to said cap.

Second, if you have a feral druid in your raid, consider replacing one of your warriors with that druid; this will likely result in a threat increase for both tanks.

Third, is your avoidance high enough that you've no rage for Heroic Strike? I'd recommend working more HP and less avoidance, but, and please note this, to each his own.

Notalda
02-27-2008, 11:53 PM
1) Which weapon to use for threat?


Mallet or Brutalizer, with executioneer. If you have problems with threat and you have high avoidance, don't use mongoose.


2) Is it worth sacrificing EH AND Avoidance for Block Rating and SBV?

Block rating, no. SBV, yes. For building a threat set anyway.



Praetorian Legguards >> Unwavering Legguards (-hit for +SBV/Rating)
Gauntlets of Enforcement >> T5 Gloves (-Expertise for +SBV/Rating/AP/Crit)
DM:Vengeance >> Autoblocker (-EH for +SBV)
Moroes >> Autoblocker (-2% Avoidance/Oh Crap Button for + SBV)
T5 Helm >> Battleworn Tuskguard (-AP/-Crit/-Armor/-4.7% Avoidance for +4.3% block andd 51 SBV


I use Unwavering, Gauntlets of Enforcement, Autoblocker, Vengeance, T4 helm (+hit/+SBV, I'm not going to wear the tuskguard ever. Wear that if you have it tho :P).

Gauntlets of Enforcement > T5 gloves, imo.



3) Is it worth taking an older shield like ALD and enchanting it for TPS?


I used to use ALD for threat (and S2 everywhere else) until I got my Hardened Heart.


All in all I wish to increase my TPS. My raid makeup generally has me in a group made up of Tank Warrior, Tank Warrior, Tank Warrior, Paladin, Warlock.

Get a shaman instead of a warrior, and make him your WF-slave.

As for lowering your avoidance... I tanked everything in BT up to RoS (including Bloodboil & Gorefiend) in my threat gear, T4 helm, Brooch, T5 shoulders, Hyjal Cloak, T5 chest, Badge bracers, Gauntlets of Enforcement, Girdle of Stability (Iron-tusk before that), Unweavering Legs, Red Havoc Boots, Hyjal Ring (honored), 7th ring of the tirisfallen (or shapeshifter's signet), Autoblocker, Darkmoon card.

Worked very well for all of them, and our DPS didn't need to hold back much, either.

Jericho
02-28-2008, 02:24 AM
Thanks to you both...

First off I am one of the RL. Unfortunately, we have a grand total of 3 shaman's in the guild (2 Resto, 1 Ele). So it can be difficult at times to get a shaman for the tank group. Its hard to tell 3 rogues and a fury warrior they don't get windfury, cause the tank wants it.

Right now its really only our 2 best geared mages that are getting threat capped. The other mages we have either know how to use their Invis correctly or just flat out dont do the dps as the others.

I made a few tweaks tonight and with the exception of Rage (I think i am just gonna wear DPS gear for that joke of a boss next week), I was fairly happy with my threat output. Could it be higher? Sure, but I still need to figure out a TPS weapon.

As for the weapon, I do not have a Brutalizer, and being human it really gives ZERO advantage over the Unbreakable Will as the 5 expertise from the rating is ~= the 5 I get just purely from using the sword in general. I will prolly drop executioner on my old Mallet and see what happens if I can scrounge up the money to do so. I am still not quite sure as to the ramifications of the significantly lower DPS. However I guess the added Expertise and its further 1% dodge/parry will show to be the difference.

And believe me I'd really like to drop some avoidance for some SBV or just general Block rating. But with my current gear is the best EH set I have atm. Tweaking some minor things for a small EH hit for some SBV helped tonight, so I will keep going from there. Here's hoping I can pick up some shoulders that dont have dodge on them soon. (Having like 20 Priests/Druids/Warriors in your guild when you go through TK/SSC is not conducive in picking up T5 shoulders).

Armstrong
02-28-2008, 05:35 AM
What Notalda said.

Felsteel Shield Spike is the superior option for pure threat increase over the +18 SBV enchant.

If I had Kaz' Hardened Heart, I would socket my Aldori Legacy Defender with a +8 Hit Rating gem and a Shield Spike for threat sensitive fights where I can live without the extra armor and stam.

Satrina
02-28-2008, 09:39 AM
55% avoidance isn't a bad thing in BT, really. I'd spend some time watching threat rotation to make sure you aren't buggering it up wasting GCDs or missing heroic strikes when you have the rage to spare. That said...

As a human, Mallet with Executioner is your threat weapon and really, you should still be using that most of the time. Unbreakable Will + Mongoose is a situational use weapon really.

Since you're talking about 21 expertise, I assume you have Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx and Brooch of Deftness. Keep wearing them. Max out your hit as much as you can, including using Spicy Hot Talbuk instead of stamina food. Crazy as it may seem, Bonefist Gauntlets with 2% threat may be a good swap-in piece for you even with Gauntlets of Enforcement available. Zul'jin drops Ancient Aqir Artifact which is a nice piece, too.


Its hard to tell 3 rogues and a fury warrior they don't get windfury, cause the tank wants it.Nonsense. You build groups on raid need, not melee DPS epeen need. Plus, I would highly doubt that of all the DPS in your raid, it's just those two mages who are holding back. They're probably just the ones who ride the line and are visible about it on the threat meter.

The key thing: EH is great. It is not everything. Build your gear sets based on what you need for an encounter, and that includes survivability and threat generation. Communicate with your healers about how each iteration of gear affects them.

Caulle
02-28-2008, 10:35 AM
1) Which weapon to use for threat?
Brutalizer w/ Executioner. Recently made the enchant switch. HUGE threat difference. I sharded my mallet a while ago, but I'm an NE so don't have the human racial anyway.


2) Is it worth sacrificing EH AND Avoidance for Block Rating and SBV?
Depends on what items you're swapping. Auto-blocker is simply too good. I'd go DM:Vengence over Moroes as well. Actually, i don't even own a moroes. The first one that dropped I pass to the feral druid, and never saw another one on my tank.


3) Is it worth taking an older shield like ALD and enchanting it for TPS?
Yes. I sharded my S2 shield when I got Kaz'Rogal's months ago without thinking, and I regret it ever since. I plan on picking up a second hardened heart for threat as soon as one drops, unless Bulwark from Illidan drops before in which case I can gem/enchant the current for threat.



All in all I wish to increase my TPS. My raid makeup generally has me in a group made up of Tank Warrior, Tank Warrior, Tank Warrior, Paladin, Warlock.
3 prot warriors in BT? That's a bit overboard IMO. We run with one right now, myself, and that's it. The rest are fury. One of the warriors respec's weekly to tank Illidan blazes which the raid bank covers. The trash is ridiculously easy in BT, and any fights that require a properly geared/specc'd OT should just have a feral.


Its hard to tell 3 rogues and a fury warrior they don't get windfury, cause the tank wants it.
Satrina nailed this one. If you're losing threat due to an improperly stacked group (3 prots, pally, warlock) because one class or another will complain, then it's only holding your raid back. Outside of the last 3 bosses of BT, I'm stacked in a threat group composition at all times. Feral, DPS Warrior, Shaman, and one more. The last spot varies, sometimes it's a hunter/ret pally which is fantastic, other times I get a leftover warlock. And we still have a fully stacked G5 with Enhc Shaman, 2 rogues, Feral, and Fury Warrior.

Marrick
02-28-2008, 11:13 AM
Yeah, I'm not at your level of progression or even close, but my group usually consists of Myself (prot warrior), Feral, Lock, Shammy and one more, usually a DPS War if we have one. There's no point in the melee group having WF if they (and other DPS) are threat capped. Since you mentioned it's your mages that are the ones getting threat capped, they should:

1) Learn to invis properly and/or ask for salv if they don't have it. It's their job to know what they need (as opposed to what they want).

2) Tell the rogues/Fury war to suck it up. If they complain they're being selfish about how they look on the meters and aren't looking out for the raid as a whole.

Foolishness
03-03-2008, 07:57 AM
You mentioned that you had high avoidance gear. 50-55% is fairly low in my eyes, and you should still be getting plenty of rage.

I can maintain 700-900 TPS with a suneater at 70% avoidance at 400ms while shield blocking and thunderclapping, so if your threat is lower than this your probably not pressing your buttons the right way.

Are you being rage starved? If you are not being rage starved i would suggest working on your rotation.

If you are rage starved i would suggest dropping out all avoidance and replacing it with stam/hit/SBV and expertise. However i'm not familiar with t6 content and i would only recommend doing this on trash or bosses which have no chance of killing you.

There is plenty of stam/threat gear from badges and so forth, even blues from heroics if you are desperate.

Also if you got a few hunters get them to setup a misdirect rotation on you.

Aelvain
03-06-2008, 03:22 PM
You mentioned that you had high avoidance gear. 50-55% is fairly low in my eyes, and you should still be getting plenty of rage.

I can maintain 700-900 TPS with a suneater at 70% avoidance at 400ms while shield blocking and thunderclapping, so if your threat is lower than this your probably not pressing your buttons the right way.

Are you being rage starved? If you are not being rage starved i would suggest working on your rotation.

If you are rage starved i would suggest dropping out all avoidance and replacing it with stam/hit/SBV and expertise. However i'm not familiar with t6 content and i would only recommend doing this on trash or bosses which have no chance of killing you.

There is plenty of stam/threat gear from badges and so forth, even blues from heroics if you are desperate.

Also if you got a few hunters get them to setup a misdirect rotation on you.

Um, are you including block % when you say 70% avoidance? Generally when people say avoidance it's simply chance to dodge, parry, and be missed. I ask because I'm at about 70% avoidance in 4/5 T6 with the Faceplate, 3 10 dodge rating gems and several gems with agi, so I can't imagine how someone could have that much avoidance before even seeing T6 content.

Steakums
03-06-2008, 05:08 PM
With 2 Resto Shammy and 1 Elemental Sham you should have

Tank, Tank, Resto Sham (WF Bot), Feral Druid (or Tree) and Lock for a Tank Group

Thats generally what i have and i rarely run with more then 1 enhance and 2 resto sham's ever.

That includes 1 Enhance Sham, 2 Rogues, Feral Druid, 1 Fury Warrior in the Melee Group and generally the other is stolen for the Range group if the Shadowpriest isn't available.

Armageddn
03-07-2008, 06:18 AM
This is a perfect thread for me because i have a similar questions.

Let me start with an introduction, when we me and my guild where fighting to down Kael and vashj i had about 800 SBV in my all-around-MT-gear (i could reash about 1120 inSBV gear :D which was great fun in PVP..) anyhow when i started to swich gear like T5 chest instead of panzar, KHH instead of ZA shield i went down to about 680 and when i look at T6 i know I'll be loosing even more SBV. i even passed the T6 gloves last night because i didn't want to lose the SBV on my T5 hands plus i'm waiting for the Gauntlets of Enforcement.

My first dilemma is that i don't wanna lose more SBV (and threat) but at the same time i really wanna improve my gear. That's why i pray that Praetorian's Legguards won't drop before i get Girdle of Stability.

Given that my All-Around-MT-Gear right now is shown here (http://ctprofiles.net/83503) (PS. feel free to check out my different gear lists and comment on them as well )
My threat is pretty much stable at 1200 TPS but there is always room for improvement and i wanna make sure that i don't lose any TPS as i switch to new gear.

My second dilemma is that i have alot of shields i have ALD, ZA shield, and KHH, right now i'm using the ZA shield with spikes on it for aoe tanking like MH trash and KHH as my EH and threat shield with the usual 15 sta gem and 18 sta enchant, while ALD is lying around in the bank. My question is which shield should i use for what purpose? i'm thinking (and please correct me if i'm wrong).
KHH for EH (sta gem and sta enchant)
ALD for pure threat (hit gem and spikes)
ZA Shield for aoe tanking (stamina gem and spikes).

I'm sorry if I'm not making much sence but i'm pretty confused myself and i'm really bad at explaining myself

Dany
03-07-2008, 07:21 AM
This is a perfect thread for me because i have a similar questions.

Let me start with an introduction, when we me and my guild where fighting to down Kael and vashj i had about 800 SBV in my all-around-MT-gear (i could reash about 1120 inSBV gear :D which was great fun in PVP..) anyhow when i started to swich gear like T5 chest instead of panzar, KHH instead of ZA shield i went down to about 680 and when i look at T6 i know I'll be loosing even more SBV. i even passed the T6 gloves last night because i didn't want to loose the SBV on my T5 hands plus i'm waiting for the Gauntlets of Enforcement.

My first dilemma is that i don't wanna lose more SBV (and threat) but at the same time i really wanna improve my gear. That's why i pray that Praetorian's Legguards won't drop before i get Girdle of Stability.

Given that my All-Around-MT-Gear right now is shown here (http://ctprofiles.net/83503) (PS. feel free to check out my different gear lists and comment on them as well )
My threat is pretty much stable at 1200 TPS but there is always room for improvement and i wanna make sure that i don't lose any TPS as i switch to new gear.

I really feel you're considering SBV as your main threat stat. I think I won't be the only one to say that: expertise & hit rating are faaaarrr better regarding to threat. It's really better to do little shield slam that hit every time than big ones that will land once every 3 hits. I don't think that any end game high threat set could have much more than 700 or 800 SBV (haven't done math though)

maddfez
03-07-2008, 08:32 AM
I really feel you're considering SBV as your main threat stat. I think I won't be the only one to say that: expertise & hit rating are faaaarrr better regarding to threat. It's really better to do little shield slam that hit every time than big ones that will land once every 3 hits. I don't think that any end game high threat set could have much more than 700 or 800 SBV (haven't done math though)

/agree

As I've been moving into T6 content, I've lost a fair amount of SBV. However, the expertise and hit gains I've made have been great and my threat gen has benefited.

In my base tank set, I think I'm only at ~400 SBV. However, the 22 expertise and 132 hit rating have kept my threat at comfortable levels. It's also very steady...about 94% of my attacks land now, which keeps my threat from being terribly spikey and can be useful for rage generation as well if I refrain from heroic striking.

Armageddn
03-07-2008, 08:47 AM
Yes of course hit and expertise are far superior threat wise but it's still really annoying to lose that much SBV, considering that it's a EH stat as well.

Ariedan
03-08-2008, 09:47 AM
Yes of course hit and expertise are far superior threat wise but it's still really annoying to lose that much SBV, considering that it's a EH stat as well.
Expertise is not just a threat stat. You realize bosses parrying = ouch?

Methadone
03-09-2008, 02:37 AM
You could consider using the ZG and Naxx enchants over KoT and Aldor/Scryer.

S2/S3 shield (or Bulwark if you have access to it) with sta as your MT shield, KHH with hit/spike as your threat shield.

Executioner to mh weapon (Mallet if you're a Human)

Try out some haste gear (2 trash rings) or some passive ArP (Zul'Jin bow, Badge cloak).

Or some more simple things, get a frenzy warr in with 5/5 demo, keep Curse of Recklessness and FF (from an boomkin if possible) up. Stack your group better. Make sure no one is downloading or using up a lot of bandwidth on your network etc etc.

Hardboiled
03-24-2008, 05:35 PM
Caveat: just killed Kaz'Rogal, so that's as far as my experience goes.

I have yet to run into a boss that is so hard hitting that I'd go full avoidance/EH gear. If I do, I usually have our feral tank it :)

Swapping out a few pieces of traditional tanking gear for ArP, hit and expertise has really gone a long way, and I haven't noticed any huge survivability issues. If anything, we seem to do better as the raid can dps harder, I generally have more rage for my 'keep myself alive' moves, and I get parried far less.

I'm not sure what gear you have, but Dory's Embrace with 12 agi and Executioner enchant both come to mind as something that could help. That and getting a group stacked for threat as others have mentioned. WF is a big one if your raid is having to hold back.