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Nikya
02-23-2008, 11:27 PM
After throwing my current gear into the Effective Health calculator on the front page, it would seem like the 18 Stam Meta is still the best, at least up to a certain point of BV. Does anyone know about how much BV is needed to justify a meta gem change?

Nilya
02-24-2008, 12:08 AM
I'm guessing the gem would have a hard time surpassing the +18 stamina for EH, with any combination of gear. However, that meta offers a unique bonus, and one that scales with your gear. It might be an overall better trade, depending on how you balance your gear.

Kaen
02-24-2008, 12:38 AM
Personally I think people get too hung up on EH sometimes. I don't want to be as callous as to say, "so what," to people saying the 18 stam gem is the best effective health. But, I will say that EH isn't EVERYTHING. You're also looking at a sizable amount of threat to your shield slams with the new meta.

For my warrior, threat is the primary issue, taking a backseat, somewhat, to health.

adrenalize
02-24-2008, 03:04 AM
I would gladly lose 200 health for 10% more Block value. The Increase in threat would be more then worth it

Radhja
02-24-2008, 05:37 AM
Eternal Earthstorm Diamond seems to the new contender in my book.

Then again, I'm a SBV whore... almost every piece of gear I have is itemized to maximize SBV. It's usefulness is both PvE and PvP are, in my opinion, one of the greatest assets we Prot Warriors have.

(For the record, Rogues are now my favorite prey to chase after in BGs. Played WSG for daily last night and repeatedly found myself under a trio of rogues' attacks... and they couldn't kill me.)

Driggan
02-26-2008, 03:34 PM
Right now I got about 625 block value average, more with T5 2-piece bonus, without stacking overly much block gear.

Considering that 10% of 625 obviously equals 62.5, then multiplying 62.5 by 1.3 (shield talent) gives us 81.25 more BV, it is really hard to justify losing that much BV for stam.

As a tank with a decent amount of stam, it is unlikely that you will die without at least 3 hits. If you block all of them you take 243.75 less damage, thus increasing your effective life overall by about 63 (or 53 with 5% more stam talent) more than the stam gem.

After that there's the huge bonus to shield slam and the extra 12 defense gravy for a little more avoidance. As someone who loves to stack stamina to the max, I still think I'll be taking this bad boy over the stamina.

Thorium
03-31-2008, 09:45 AM
How about this, you use the +18 stamina meta for your EH/Progress gear, and you use the +10% BV meta for your threat/farming gear?

:)

Kamani
03-31-2008, 11:01 AM
I agree with the new meta for threat and old meta for progression.

If you are wearing 630 block value normally then it is a threat set. You would never wear that gear on, for example, Brutallus or any other hard hitting new boss.

Scargoth
03-31-2008, 11:45 AM
I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but the 10% gain from this meta seems to based on your untalented block value from gear but it is applied after the gain from talents. I have ~470 block from gear, which is 610 after 3/3 shield mastery talent, and when I added this new meta I gained exactly 47 more block value for a total of 657.

When I look at my block value and see 610 I expect 10% more to mean 61 more block for a total of 671, but that's not what I got. I wonder if this is a bug or intentional.

Aelvain
04-02-2008, 01:40 AM
I agree with the new meta for threat and old meta for progression.

If you are wearing 630 block value normally then it is a threat set. You would never wear that gear on, for example, Brutallus or any other hard hitting new boss.

New meta's pretty much always better, equal to higher value in terms of survival, + minor threat boost. 18 stam should pretty much only be used in some odd piece of gear you want to use for an all out stam set(which is at best suboptimal for most fights).

Driggan
04-02-2008, 03:15 PM
So I tried this thing out today with the T5 2-set bonus. Shield block gave me exactly 140 more block value, so I'm guessing that the new gem is exactly like having a 4th point in shield block value Talent (whatever it is called). So whatever untalented block value you have is what will be increased by 10%.

Qyn
04-03-2008, 08:08 AM
I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but the 10% gain from this meta seems to based on your untalented block value from gear but it is applied after the gain from talents. I have ~470 block from gear, which is 610 after 3/3 shield mastery talent, and when I added this new meta I gained exactly 47 more block value for a total of 657.

When I look at my block value and see 610 I expect 10% more to mean 61 more block for a total of 671, but that's not what I got. I wonder if this is a bug or intentional.

I've noticed this too, bug or intentional? Hopefully a bug. :confused:

veneretio
04-03-2008, 10:44 AM
18 Stamina gem for Survivability
Block Value gem for Threat

Crimsonstorm
04-03-2008, 01:56 PM
I agree with the new meta for threat and old meta for progression.

If you are wearing 630 block value normally then it is a threat set. You would never wear that gear on, for example, Brutallus or any other hard hitting new boss.

I disagree, one should use the Block Value meta for 100% of the fights in the game, assuming your block value is above the level of normal instance blues with no block value on them.

My effective health set has more than 630 BV...my BV set has 900. If you were tanking Brutallus you'd better have at least that much BV (and good expertise). Otherwise how are you holding aggro over your dpsers who need to do like 2000dps and go all out the entire time?


The new BV meta adds 10% of base BV, it doesnt multiply with the shield mastery talent. So 600 from items + metagem + talent = 600*1.4 = 840 (60 from gem). Not 600*1.1*1.3 = 858 (58 from gem).

The BV metagem also has 12 defense, which is better than the 5% stun resist from the stam gem. I'd say as long as you have at least like 200 block value before talents, youre better off with the BV gem, getting 20 bv and 12 def. Most of us have way more than that.

Crimsonstorm
04-03-2008, 01:59 PM
18 Stamina gem for Survivability
Block Value gem for Threat

No.

Block value gem for survivability
Block value gem for threat
Block value gem for avoidance (it has 12 def)
Block value gem for mitigation


You do not put in an 18 stam gem when you have a 40+BV/12 Defense gem available, under any circumstance.

Thats like picking an ilvl 105 heroic epic over a T5 piece because it has a bit more stam.

Brugga
04-03-2008, 03:15 PM
I do not understand how you can compare 18 stam to 60 blockvalue for EH, for the block value to be equal you would need to block 3 attacks to save the same ammount of hp as 18stam, and thats not including kings or toughness.

However if you consider the defence as well, well first of all 12 def is not worth 12stam for EH as shown by the more popular stam bracer enchant, but if you consider defence as worth a bit less, the eternal earthstorm diamond does seem to come out the better option.

Of course i have another problem in that in all this badge gear, supposedly better than t4 etc, i come out with 16.6khp/17.8kac, but only a measly 364 BV ( including talent), which will even decrease as i lose about 10 points of Bv when I get new badge legs and chest.

In conclusion I am confused how to compare items with BV vs stamina :)

Kavtor
04-03-2008, 03:58 PM
I do not understand how you can compare 18 stam to 60 blockvalue for EH, for the block value to be equal you would need to block 3 attacks to save the same ammount of hp as 18stam, and thats not including kings or toughness.

There's more to gear choices than EH. EH is a necessary baseline. But once you've got enough health to survive a worst case event in an encounter, you want to decrease the instances in which they happen.

IMO Eternal Earthstorm Diamond is the best choice, unless you're really hurting for stamina, or have especially low block value. It decreases the over all damage you take in an encounter, decreases the number of hits you'll take, and increases your threat. Stamina just gives you more room for error on a worst case. Again, it's necessary, but if you already meet the baseline for the encounter, you can do better things with your item points. (or you're looking at a largely magic, or unavoidable damage fight like maybe Kael'thas)

MasterWolf
04-04-2008, 07:40 AM
Well, in my EH set I only have like 350 BV. Furthermore, although I'm sitting on 515 defense, i'm a hair under 15K life. Wouldn't it make more sense for me to gem Stam? Or should I go with Eternal Diamond and try to lower def and add stam with other gear?

ebs2002
04-04-2008, 10:45 AM
An EH set is not supposed to eschew threat completely. EH gear is worn for progression fights, where you have two functions as the tank:
1) Survive long enough for the DPS to be able to kill him
2) Put out enough threat for the DPS to kill him before external aspects of the fight kill the DPS off and cause a wipe.

If you're ignoring threat, you'll survive just fine, but if your DPSers are threat capped too soon, you're hurting the raid by not having enough threat.

I only wear a strict EH set when I'm running the flag in WSG as a prot spec.

My raiding sets are High Threat, High Avoidance (maximized TankPoints, for the most part), and an EH/Threat set (I also have a Hit-cap tanking set for Nalorakk, but that's normally something I'd swap out on a per-fight basis, except when we're doing tank runs I need it to be fast :-p)

Hryggðafræ
04-08-2008, 03:38 AM
Block value gem for survivability
Block value gem for threat
Block value gem for avoidance (it has 12 def)
Block value gem for mitigation


You do not put in an 18 stam gem when you have a 40+BV/12 Defense gem available, under any circumstance.

Thats like picking an ilvl 105 heroic epic over a T5 piece because it has a bit more stam.

100% agree.

MasterWolf
04-08-2008, 04:14 AM
I got this gem in my Engineering goggles... but I notice no difference in my BV.

Scargoth
04-08-2008, 02:09 PM
You do not put in an 18 stam gem when you have a 40+BV/12 Defense gem available, under any circumstance.

It won't be 40+BV unless you have 400+BV from gear untalented.

In my EH set I have 17.6k health and 51%+ total miss/dodge/parry, but only have about 330 BV after the 3/3 shield mastery talent (still have 21 exp and ~96hit). With my BV so low , I keep the 18 stam gem in my T5 helm in that set because the eternal meta makes so little difference. I put the eternal gem in my old T4 helm to use in my block set (680+BV) and it has a bigger impact there.

Indris
04-09-2008, 10:44 PM
Put the new meta into my Faceplate and never looked back. Avoidance, some mitigation, and a nice boost in threat gen is just all around better, 18 stamina isn't that much imo.

Aelvain
04-10-2008, 02:33 AM
It won't be 40+BV unless you have 400+BV from gear untalented.

In my EH set I have 17.6k health and 51%+ total miss/dodge/parry, but only have about 330 BV after the 3/3 shield mastery talent (still have 21 exp and ~96hit). With my BV so low , I keep the 18 stam gem in my T5 helm in that set because the eternal meta makes so little difference. I put the eternal gem in my old T4 helm to use in my block set (680+BV) and it has a bigger impact there.

The difference between your untalented BV (~254) and 400 BV untalented is a gain of ~25 BV vs. 40 BV, so are you saying that 15 BV difference makes it worth it? O.o

Crimsonstorm
04-10-2008, 02:25 PM
I have like 500 BV untalented in stam gear and 650 in threat gear.


Dont ignore that the BV metagem also gives 12 def, which is much better than the 5% stun resist which is almost worthless when tanking. (This isnt arena)

Tyreck
04-10-2008, 03:36 PM
This is why I get totally confused sometimes. The last few ppl have said that 12 Def is better then 18 stam.. but everyone pretty much agrees that 150hp is better then 12 def for a chest enchant. Anyone else think that logic just seems backwards? I'm not saying anyone is right or is wrong, I just wanna find some kinda consistency I guess so I can figure out how to maximize my gear/enchants for Brutalis and beyond.

My gear has like 485 BV AFTER the talent. Now I agree that whatever BV I get is way better then 5% stun resist, but it's the inconsistency above that just makes my brain hurt.

My Armory if it helps at all:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderlord&n=Tyreck)

Rak
04-10-2008, 03:59 PM
Everyone is saying that 12 def is better than 5% stun resist, not 18 stamina.

Aelvain
04-10-2008, 04:05 PM
This is why I get totally confused sometimes. The last few ppl have said that 12 Def is better then 18 stam.. but everyone pretty much agrees that 150hp is better then 12 def for a chest enchant. Anyone else think that logic just seems backwards? I'm not saying anyone is right or is wrong, I just wanna find some kinda consistency I guess so I can figure out how to maximize my gear/enchants for Brutalis and beyond.

My gear has like 485 BV AFTER the talent. Now I agree that whatever BV I get is way better then 5% stun resist, but it's the inconsistency above that just makes my brain hurt.

My Armory if it helps at all:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thunderlord&n=Tyreck)

12 defense is the same cost ibudget wise as 18 stam, and is arguably better. 10% block value is obviously better than 5% stun resist, making the EED better than the PED. The chest enchant is 15 defense right? Definitely better than 150 hp, and 12 defense to bracers is also arguably better than 12 stamina. Both of the defense enchants get you more "bang for your buck" so to speak than the stamina ones (in comparison 10 defense = 15 stamina as far as cost goes) and considering most intelligent warriors in Sunwell are gemming for 10 defense/dodge obviously the defense enchants are even more clearly superior than the stamina alternative. Anyone in t6 gear should have probably ~350-400 untalented BV max if they're gearing smart, meaning you get 35-40 BV from the meta, which is generally less than a 1% increase in overall threat. Basically BV isn't the main reason this meta is better, and while the benefit is small it's still better than the alternative.

Tyreck
04-10-2008, 04:12 PM
That makes more sense if we then say that all the +def enchants are better. I still don't have that much untalented BV.. I have 485 AFTER talent and I will be loosing more soon as I'm switching to new eng helm as soon as it drops with the def/dodge enchant once again.

Yeah it's +15 def to chest.. I have a terrible memory and didn't check.

Obviously not counting +def to cloak. +dodge would still be better .

I'm really thinking of going +dodge to cloak.. +def to chest.. +agil to gloves for sunwell and back to the keepers of time helm enchant. Not sure on meta yet.. and not sure about stam or def to bracers. Leaning towards stam for meta and bracers still because at least it scales with Kings.