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View Full Version : When do you use your avoidance set?



quadturtle
02-22-2008, 04:15 AM
Hi there,

My 'toon is just about to hit outlands and I've been planning to spec prot for the grind from 60-70 so that I can teach myself to tank. I've been lurking in the forums for a while and one of the things that seems to get periodically mentioned is that a tank need to build up different sets of gear. From what I can see you need:

A solo/dps set for when you're not tanking, which is essentially the same as a dw fury set.

A mitigation/effective health set for encounters which you have trouble with, where the emphasis is on stamina and armour

A threat set for encounters you are comfortable with which focuses on shield block value, expertise, hit, crit etc.

Resistance sets for specific fights which have a high amount of damage from a particular school magic.

And an avoidance set which you use when?

Are there any other sets that people commonly build that I've missed?

Also should I be looking to build these sets up as I level or is it not worth bothering with until 70?

Thanks for you help

Shortypop
02-22-2008, 04:37 AM
I'd focus on building a dw set and an EH set as you level. Once you get close to 68-70, look carefully at blues before vendoring them as they might fit into an avoidance or block value set. The belt from the break into the Arcatraz quest is an example or a piece which won't last in an EH set but may be useful elsewhere.

Mainly it's only after 70, that your eh and avoidance sets will start to really diversify from each other.

Bonerot
02-22-2008, 05:30 AM
I've made an Avoidence set but I don't ever use it. I'm in love with my threat set. Nothing more statisying then watching the threat bar jump really high and the dpsers will love you for it.

Unbuffed I have 17k armor and 15.5k health in my threat set so being that I'm over geared for my guilds current content (just starting t5 raids) I can wear that basically all the time.

Dunmail
02-22-2008, 07:06 AM
I specced prot about level 61 as I was getting hammered on the HFP quests which I'd done & finished off around the HFP instances. Partly that was due to having mediocre kit as I'd barely upgraded from early 50's as you go through items pretty rapidly, from rewards and odd purchases off the AH, and partly due to an inferior spec as I'd specced to level, more than spending time fully understanding what I was actually doing.

I then levelled pretty rapidly (and learned what I was supposed to be doing through the Hellfire peninsula, Coilfang and the early auchidoun instances. As a result if you're like me and dinged 70 after running through terrokar forest and nagrand you find you've outgeared alot of the quests through the chain rewards, instance drops and a few purchases from the AH. Many of the mobs will be green and it's mainly the rep, odd drop and cash from questing that makes it easy and really worthwhile.

I thinK the only things I went out of my way to buy were the 3 ragesteel pieces off the AH/guildies to provide the basics off a dps kit, along with various odd bits that dropped.
Ogrila provides a cheap shield when you are able to do the daylies that you can regem as a DPS on (I have anyway if you use a board with instead of a OH) and also not a bad set of boots, that I recently grinded the large shards for, for a dps set that I'm finally starting to work on and I've been 70 for a while.

Like Shorty mentioned I found it to be late 60s - 70 when I needed to start paying attention to my kit, especially when preparing to be viable in KZ as an OT, and not just going for welfare drops. If you can level through the instances like I mentioned, and use the questing for odd drops and cash then it isn't as painful levelling prot as it could be (wished I'd done it at 58 as 58-60 sucked). Also if you get stuck on the harder quests in say Nagrand, you could skip to Terrokar and start the easier ones, as they are close and you may aswell exploit OL's compactness (yawn - haha flight times) to your benefit.

Along with DPS I've also started working towards and avoidance set as I'm more or less happy with the basic tanking set I have, or rather waiting for a couple more drops. What I did discover was that you can easily outgear some instances with half decent tanking gear/purples. Depending how good your dps gear is, you may end up running a hybrid set as well if you either go back to an instance for a drop, or with people who levelled behind you.

Foolishness
02-22-2008, 07:26 AM
First you need to know one thing, an avoidance set needs to be balanced with good stam, or it will be useless. No HP = no tank. The itemisation allows you to sacrifice block value and block rating for avoidance. do not sacrifice significant amounts of stamina.

Times to wear an 'avoidance' set

1. When you are tanking trash and yours is not the first kill.

2. Fast attack bosses which burn through shield block charges (For example Prince in kara and tidewalker in ssc.

3. When your healers are running out of mana too soon.

4. When you are short on healers for an encounter (eg. 5 healers for lurker, or 2 healers for nightbane).

Kerg
03-09-2008, 10:01 AM
First you need to know one thing, an avoidance set needs to be balanced with good stam, or it will be useless. No HP = no tank. The itemisation allows you to sacrifice block value and block rating for avoidance. do not sacrifice significant amounts of stamina.

Times to wear an 'avoidance' set

1. When you are tanking trash and yours is not the first kill.

2. Fast attack bosses which burn through shield block charges (For example Prince in kara and tidewalker in ssc.

3. When your healers are running out of mana too soon.

4. When you are short on healers for an encounter (eg. 5 healers for lurker, or 2 healers for nightbane).

Thanks, this is the first time I've seen this spelled out definitively. Maybe Cider should add a statement like this to Fortifications. :)

I've started working on an Avoidance set as well, but instead of just pure avoidance, it more of a "time to live" set. I agree that an avoidance set with low armor and stamina would be pretty pointless. I'm designing my set to require the least healing possible, i.e. if I pulled a mob, and received zero healing, this set would help me live the longest by mitigating and avoiding the most damage, while also having solid stamina to make me last longer. The set ignores EH theory and so won't be good against spike damage, but I won't be using it in those types of fights. It will be used in situations like above.

Kream
03-09-2008, 10:42 AM
2. Fast attack bosses which burn through shield block charges (For example Prince in kara and tidewalker in ssc.

I use my avoidance set on any dual wield bosses (unless threat is a major concern). DW bosses get an additional 19% miss rate and the extra avoidance nets you a lot less damage. I'd recommend reading:

Effective Health Theory - TheorySpot (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/1060-effective-health-theory.html)
http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/33106-wanderlei-avoidance.html

mattdeeze
03-09-2008, 12:24 PM
I Commend you for respeccing Prot at 60 so that you can get a feel for tanking while still leveling up. BUT, I would reccommend against keeping a duel wield dps set for leveling those last 10 levels (kinda defeats the purpose of practicing your tanking).

Instead I'd get a leveling buddy (preferably a high dps class such as a mage). It will give you practice with some essential tanking skills such as spell reflect, sheild bash, shield slam, shield block, sheild wall, etc, etc. Plus you will get some invaluable practice holding agro from a DPS class that is just unloading as much damage as they can.

Playing with a healer in party will give you important practice holding multiple mobs against healer agro whether it be via tabbing between mobs, using cleaves, or the more basic TC and demo shout spams between focusing agro on the kill order. Also practice marking everything whenever your are in a party and utilizing all the CC that you have at your disposal.

As far as sets are concerned, its probably too early to worry about that. Your sets will come as you start collecting more gear. Yes it is important to build up a DPS set for certain fights that have absolutely no agro table at all (Shade in Kara comes to mind) and to be able to swap in some DPS pieces once you start to outgear encounters.

A common misconception is that warrior tanks cant solo leveling content (false). It takes us much longer to kill mobs, but it takes them even longer to kill us if we are using our abilites well. I wouldnt have traded the experience i had leveling as a prot for anything in the world.

Again, congrats on your decision to level as prot thru TBC content it will make you a much better tank once you get into 70 content.

Ceravantes
03-09-2008, 01:34 PM
I Commend you for respeccing Prot at 60 so that you can get a feel for tanking while still leveling up. BUT, I would reccommend against keeping a duel wield dps set for leveling those last 10 levels (kinda defeats the purpose of practicing your tanking). Instead I'd get a leveling buddy (preferably a high dps class such as a mage). You will soon realize that you will create the most damage with your spec by sticking to the old sword a board (even though it won't be as much as you used to do with your previous spec). It will give you practice with some essential tanking skills such as spell reflect, sheild bash, shield slam, shield block, sheild wall, etc, etc. Plus you will get some invaluable practice holding agro from a DPS class that is just unloading as much damage as they can. Also playing with a healer in party will give you important practice holding multiple mobs against healer agro whether it be via tabbing between mobs, using cleaves, or the more basic TC and demo shout spams between focusing agro on the kill order. Also practice marking everything whenever your are in a party and utilizing all the CC that you have at your disposal. As far as sets are concerned, its probably too early to worry about that. Your sets will come as you start collecting more gear. Yes it is important to build up a DPS set for certain fights that have absolutely no agro table at all (Shade in Kara comes to mind) and to be able to swap in some DPS pieces once you start to outgear encounters. A common misconception is that warrior tanks cant solo leveling content (false). It takes us much longer to kill mobs, but it takes them even longer to kill us if we are using our abilites well. I wouldnt have traded the experience i had leveling as a prot for anything in the world. Again, congrats on your decision to level as prot thru TBC content it will make you a much better tank once you get into 70 content.


First off, paragraphs are your friend. Secondly, it is ignorant to think you will do more dmg with a sword and board than dev spamming in dw fury gear.

quadturtle
03-10-2008, 08:35 AM
Thanks very much for the replies guys, I think that you were right and it is a bit early to consider different sets of gear (at the moment it seems like every new piece I get is a strict upgrade). About all I'm switching just now is my shield for an offhand weapon when I'm soloing.

I'm loving tanking in the hellfire citadel although I'm struggling a little bit with trying to remember to use all my skills (especially heroic strike, I think I'm going to try some sort of hud so I don't miss when I'm overflowing with rage).

ebs2002
03-10-2008, 09:38 AM
It is ignorant to think you will do more dmg with a sword and board than dev spamming in dw fury gear.

He never said that. He said that, while you will kill the mob slower, the mob will kill you slower as well. You may do 50% less DPS, but you're taking 75% less damage.

I do almost all of my soloing (namely the Ogri'la banishing quest) with a sword and board, too. I stack up high block value/rating, spam devastate until I have 5 stacked and if my autoblocker is up, I shield slam.

Yes, my damage is lower...but, unlike when I'm dual wielding in DPS gear, I nearly never have to stop to eat/bandage. Also, I can pull 4 mobs without worrying about dying (something I could never do fury specced)

Bodasafa
03-10-2008, 09:58 AM
Id like to metntion about the 2 healers for nightbane...thats all you need. Most guilds I hear use 3 healers for all of kara. Our guild found that a waste get another dps in there for a faster clear. Our current clear record is 3 hrs 24 mins and thats all bosses 1 shotted except animals.

Sorry back on subject...

For lvling just grab the best stuff you can thru qsting and early instance drops. Also greens "of the champion" are a nice way to supplement your gear as you progress to 70. You can find them fairly cheap on the AH.

As far as sets I have 1 tank set and 5 resistance sets one for each school of magic. Aside from that I have the Boots of Elusion from Kara trash and Moroes Pocket watch to swap in for avoidance fights like Prince in Kara...thats it.

Most of this set building is personal choice really. But I find with just one tanking set that focuses on EH/SBV I can solo just about any qst. I left all the SMV qsts and the back half of netherstorm and was able to solo alot of that in my 1 tank set. Ruul the Darkener and his mount was a slight challange but I still soloed him. Im also able to tank all of kara, Gruul, MAG and heroics with this one set.

So really its all personal choice.

Kerg
03-10-2008, 10:01 AM
He never said that. He said that, while you will kill the mob slower, the mob will kill you slower as well. You may do 50% less DPS, but you're taking 75% less damage.

I do almost all of my soloing (namely the Ogri'la banishing quest) with a sword and board, too. I stack up high block value/rating, spam devastate until I have 5 stacked and if my autoblocker is up, I shield slam.

Yes, my damage is lower...but, unlike when I'm dual wielding in DPS gear, I nearly never have to stop to eat/bandage. Also, I can pull 4 mobs without worrying about dying (something I could never do fury specced)

Soloing with sword & board or DW as prot both work. Personal preference really. If you are in an area where pulling adds and dying (resulting in a long runback) might be a concern, it's probably better to go sword & board block value. Same if you are soloing elites. But if you're just farming easy mobs, DW is better if you have a decent set.... things go a lot faster... just bring a lot of bandages and food.

Bodasafa
03-10-2008, 10:04 AM
Ya I would agree with the poster above me sword and board all the way for solo work. Especially if u have the Auto-blocker and have it tied to Ciderhlems macro for 4 hits on the trinket use.

As a prot tank your biggest damage is ur shield. If you want to constantly re-spec and go DW fury for qstn/solo work , thats fine its ur gold. But why bother with carrying all this extra crap in ur bags and pay out the ear...when you have your best tool on you already.

Max SBV and go to town. Add crit food or scrolls for a extra pump in you % to crit and watch the SS crits fly. Im at 2577 highest crit atm in my tanking gear and avg. 1500 crits w/mongoose and adamantite sharpening stone alone.

Ya it takes a little longer to kill stuff but you can kill 5 at one time or do long strings without taking a break for food.

Kream
03-10-2008, 10:19 AM
Ya I would agree with the poster above me sword and board all the way for solo work. Especially if u have the Auto-blocker and have it tied to Ciderhlems macro for 4 hits on the trinket use.

As a prot tank your biggest damage is ur shield. If you want to constantly re-spec and go DW fury for qstn/solo work , thats fine its ur gold. But why bother with carrying all this extra crap in ur bags and pay out the ear...when you have your best tool on you already.

Max SBV and go to town. Add crit food or scrolls for a extra pump in you % to crit and watch the SS crits fly. Im at 2577 highest crit atm in my tanking gear and avg. 1500 crits w/mongoose and adamantite sharpening stone alone.

Ya it takes a little longer to kill stuff but you can kill 5 at one time or do long strings without taking a break for food.

So if I take 50% more damage than you, but do 50% more dps.. that means the same mob dies in half the time with exactly the same amount of damage done to me. Using defensive gear to grind is just a bad idea, plain and simple. You can put out similar DPS to fury as prot spec (especially while attacking mobs from the front where your expertise from defiance really shines). Leveling with a sword and board to practice your defensive skills might seem like a good idea, but with the time you save using DW prot, you will have many hours at 70 to practice all you like.

Also note that he is not 70. He does not have an autoblocker and few quest rewards will give him any sort of +block value. Go DW, pick up hit rating/str wherever you can and get to 70 quickly.


Also should I be looking to build these sets up as I level or is it not worth bothering with until 70?

Just build a dps set and a tanking set that uses the best items you have available to you. Focus on EH for tanking instances, because EH is never a bad choice for tanking in (it may not be the best choice, but will get you through the fight). Honestly as you level the whole EH vs Avoidance debate is pretty much a moot point.. you'll have one item that is much better than your second choice, and that is what you will use to tank. Filling in slots that are outdated with "of the Champion" greens will probably do more for your tanking than anything else.

ebs2002
03-10-2008, 10:34 AM
So if I take 50% more damage than you, but do 50% more dps.. that means the same mob dies in half the time with exactly the same amount of damage done to me.
True, except it normally doesn't work that way. You take 75% more damage than me, and do 50% more DPS. I'm getting 30% shield block for full, and an extra 5k armor from my shield. The mob dies in half the time, but you take a lot more damage.


Also note that he is not 70. He does not have an autoblocker and few quest rewards will give him any sort of +block value. Go DW, pick up hit rating/str wherever you can and get to 70 quickly.
Good point here. For leveling, I wouldn't go sword-and-board unless you're going to do instances/group quests. Once you get some decent SBV gear, though, sword-and-board is a definite alternative

Prerift
03-10-2008, 05:24 PM
True, except it normally doesn't work that way. You take 75% more damage than me, and do 50% more DPS. I'm getting 30% shield block for full, and an extra 5k armor from my shield. The mob dies in half the time, but you take a lot more damage.


Good point here. For leveling, I wouldn't go sword-and-board unless you're going to do instances/group quests. Once you get some decent SBV gear, though, sword-and-board is a definite alternative

Why would I care if I take 75% more damage when I can bandage, get to full in 8 seconds every few pulls, and continue killing more mobs, faster?

Dual Wield is the way to go for prot grinding and dps.

Vimy
03-10-2008, 05:45 PM
Isnt the bigger issue that learning to "Tank" has little to do with solo grinding to level 70?

I do encourage anyone to learn the skills as a protection warrior as they are leveling. Understanding when to hit what buttons, getting in a threat rotation and the like will benefit you greatly.

However one of the largest aspects of tanking is reacting to a hard hitting mob, learning how to mitigate that damage by either avoiding their special effects or by utilizing abilities such as shield block. Additionally, and most importantly, a large portion of tanking, perhaps even moreso in 5 mans which you will be first introduced to, is interacting with others.

I honestly would encourage you to spend as much time possible in the instances as you level in groups reacting to the group dynamic. Having gung ho dps and poor healing will teach you MUCH more about the intricacies of tanking than grinding 60-70 as prot.

I personally leveled as dps till 70, however i had a good expanse of experience as a tank. I had a good friend who never tanked a moment in the game, respecced at 66 to prot and never turned back.

All in all it is entirely up to you. Beyond that, your avoidance / mitigation question can be summed up very simply. Beyond causing a major arguement, upto T5 content, and argueably almost through T5 content, an Effective Health set will help you more than a mitigation set, boss depending. All this will come in time tho, with knowledge, you are on the right track and you are consulting one of the better sources on the net.

Malignus
03-10-2008, 06:01 PM
Archimonde and Mother. Nothing else really needs it.

Vimy
03-10-2008, 06:02 PM
Illidan perhaps.

Ratholorn
03-10-2008, 08:36 PM
I have 2 avoidance sets - an uncrushable set and (what I call) a mitigation set.

I never wear the uncrushable set because it lowers the threat ceiling for DPS too much. I give up some HP and a lot of Expertise and Hit Rating.

The mitigation set I wear for Bloodboil, Azgalor, Council, Archimonde and Illidan (include Mother too but some of the pieces are SR). It's got lower SBV than my threat set, and it's not hit capped, but it's still respectable threat wise and it has more defensive stats on it.

ebs2002
03-11-2008, 01:45 PM
I don't wear an EH set for prince. I swap in high SBV and avoidance pieces (boots of elusion over battlescar, maiden neck over brooch, autoblocker trinket over darkmoon, Maiden Gloves over t4, possibly a few others that I can't remember at the moment).

For everything else in Kara, though, I wear an EH/Threat set.

Kerg
03-14-2008, 08:24 AM
I have always used my EH/Threat set for Prince. But I just built an Avoidance set and am doing Kara tonight and contemplating using it.

My worry with Prince is that the fight is a dps race. What if I get rage starved, and my threat is lowered... causing dps to have to hold back else get the tank 1-shotted by Enfeeble.

Isn't wearing an Avoidance set for Prince kind of risky for that reason?

ebs2002
03-14-2008, 11:15 AM
The DPS race for prince is Phase 2. If your DPS isn't being dumb in phase 1 and is letting you get a good lead, an avoidance set shouldn't be an issue; you should have a huge threat lead by 60%.

Also note that I didn't say I go OMGAVOIDANCE crazy on prince. I put on boots of elusion and maiden neck, yes; but the other swaps are high SBV (because SBV shines on fast quick hits).

If I had gotten the SBV Badge cloak, I would swap that in as well over Slikk's.

The time I wore my all-out EH set with only like 35% dodge+parry, he owned me.