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View Full Version : Crushing Blows and Latency/FPS



Wellbred
02-21-2008, 08:13 AM
I play on a pretty crappy laptop, with a graphics card that integrated (Intel 910 POS). Consequently, video performance ain't too great, to say the least. Over the past 1 1/2, that has not been a problem, but in the recent 2 months, either because of the laptop is aging or because of new data from a recent patch, perfromance has plummeted, and I get a ton of video stutter. I've been working thru a lot of the fixes posted on Blizz forums, but nothing's worked.

Here's the question: I'm starting to eat crushing blows, and I'm wondering if latency/FPS/stutter is the culprit. I've had a lot of trouble lately tanking Nightbane and prince, I've died on Lurker, and as the last straw, we wiped on phase 1 al'ar twice on Tues because of Crushes. My roll in the guild is 2nd or 3rd tank (Lurker was a chance to show my mettle, which obviously didn't pan out.)

In 25mans, outside of combat, my latency is around 150ms and my FPS is 12-15. When tanking Al'ar for instnace, I know the FPS falls based on eyeball observation, I don't know if the latency changes. The bar indicator is still green, but given the FPS rate, I don't know if that changes, and I haven't found the courage to mouse-over when my hands are otherwise crazy busy tanking.

So, I guess the $10,000 version of the question is:
If I spam shield block throughout a boss-tank, should I expect to continue to eat crushes given the crap performance?

ttocs
02-21-2008, 08:35 AM
It really depends. I would think the 150ms ping would cause the problem more than the 12-15FPS... but if you think youre having a harder time keeping shield block up...

I would also suggest getting fubar with performancefu to measure your FPS, as it's on the screen at all times. It's an ace2 mod, and if you keep it minimalist it should be of negligible impact on your performance.

Bonerot
02-21-2008, 08:39 AM
I don't know any really nice way to say this but 15fps is awful. That machine is probably not raid worthy.

You don't really say how many crushes you get though, I always get a small amount on any given boss just from timing or whatever and I'm mashing that button fairly regularly and have a high fps and fast pc.

Wellbred
02-21-2008, 08:47 AM
Yeah, I too am more worried about the 150ms ping. The FPS freaks me out, pisses me off, and makes it hard to see, but then when under the boss, there's not much to see anyway other than his crotch (if he has one). I spam shield block simply because I can't rely on the video performance. (Heck I spam shield block most of the time anyway, but more so now.)TBH though, the video stutter makes me angrier (happens even on a lvl 40 alt in STV.)

I've been reluctant to download anything else, I use the CTMods, DBM, and KLM, but that's about it. But finding out the real latency is still pretty improtant, so I will go grab Fubar. I'll cehck to see if CTMods has anything like that as well.

I had always assumed that spamming shield block would still overcome the latency in most cases, though I'm obviously questioning that now. Is there anything else I might be missing?

Wellbred
02-21-2008, 08:48 AM
I don't know any really nice way to say this but 15fps is awful. That machine is probably not raid worthy. .

This, sadly, is the conclusion I'm coming to. :(

Bonerot
02-21-2008, 08:48 AM
Omen is supposed to be much more PC friendly then KTM if you are allowed to run either one.

Wellbred
02-21-2008, 08:52 AM
Omen is supposed to be much more PC friendly then KTM if you are allowed to run either one.
Guild is adamant about KLM, for rather historical reasons. I prefer Omen, and run it outside of raids, but the GM has said "I don't care if Omen makes your teeth whiter and gets you laid more often, on raids we run KLM."

Dunmail
02-21-2008, 10:03 AM
Have you tried stripping your mods out and running the game to see what latency FPS you get? then either paste them back in, or add them back in gradually?

When I swapped GPU from a 6800 GTX to 8800 I went from Titan/Bongos to an Ace 2 setup. 30-40 fps to 60 (lcd monitor), or so I thought. Ran fine, looked pretty. Then crashed, played like crap 8-16 fps in ZA, then would either bsod or crash on regular intervals. It was also post patch, reinstalling wow & mods made no difference. Then on a whim I dumped all mods, ace 2 and started from scratch, bongos, titan and weirdly enough wow ran smoother, 60 fps & so on.

Problem I assumed was an ace2 mod having a memory leak, hence stuttery performance until it crashed, I also took more damage when playing my warrior. Unlike you I have a machine that has specs thoretically capable of eating wow on any resolution etc. However mucking around with screen resolutions and tweaking various options duing my bsod period did allow it to boost fps, altering distances for example give me another 10. Having a look at what you're running may help until you can upgrade, and obviously do backups if you do start to fiddle.

Even with my rigg running nicely I've also noticed severe drops in performance, sekttis area and shatt are always bad 30-40 rather than 50-60 fps and it feels quite jerky. Instances can be the same as I go from 160-280 quite reguarly, and often I have to reboot at the start of an instance as it feels like I'm playing in glue. KZ up to opera yesterday was a typical example of this. I don't know whether it's server population, more bodies being on pre 2.4/expansion, something a mod or blizz have done but it does feel like performance has gone backwards, especially the way my hunters pet and mobs have been behaving where I'm starting to see continual wall hacking (like a Usher spontaneously appear in middle of Opera), stuck mobs and just general poor performance.

I hope you get sorted, as at the moment it feels like an uphill battle to have decent gaming, whatever spec and system you run.

Lilred
02-21-2008, 11:31 AM
Guild is adamant about KLM, for rather historical reasons. I prefer Omen, and run it outside of raids, but the GM has said "I don't care if Omen makes your teeth whiter and gets you laid more often, on raids we run KLM."


well KLM is a resource hog and give you VD. You can quote me to your RL/GM.

AlmtyBob
02-21-2008, 03:37 PM
A 150ms ping is not bad at all. That's 0.15 seconds turn around from your PC to the server. I'm sure that shows up as green according to WoW and most people should be plenty happy with 150ms. While 15 fps isn't good by any stretch, if it's consistent it won't cause any issues. The only way your poor performing laptop is going to cause crushes to land is if your game stutters/freezes right as Shield Block is coming off cooldown, you can't get it back up until it unfreezes, and both SB charges are blown already. That seems unlikely.

Nightbane has a slow enough swing timer that you have plenty of time to pop up the next SB before the last charge is blown. Prince on the other hand will instant-thrash, which eats both of your SB charges, and then hit you while SB is down possibly causing a crush. If you get thrash/thrash/crushed, that's about 14k of damage worst case. Nothing to do with your machine.

Are you 100% sure (wow web stats, some combat log auditing, etc) that you're taking crushing blows? And if so are you ALWAYS putting it back on the instant it comes off of cooldown?

maddfez
02-21-2008, 03:52 PM
I ran Kara --> Kael with a machine that would give me a regular 200-300ms and sometimes as few a 3 FPS when tanking a boss. Never had a significant problem with crushing blows (WWS normally shows ~1% crush rate).

Vashj P3 is much more fun that way, let me tell you.



That being said, I've switched machines and been much happier with my current system's performance and I think my threat and general tanking skill has definitely gone up because of this.

Wellbred
02-21-2008, 04:10 PM
A 150ms ping is not bad at all. That's 0.15 seconds turn around from your PC to the server. I'm sure that shows up as green according to WoW and most people should be plenty happy with 150ms. While 15 fps isn't good by any stretch, if it's consistent it won't cause any issues. The only way your poor performing laptop is going to cause crushes to land is if your game stutters/freezes right as Shield Block is coming off cooldown, you can't get it back up until it unfreezes, and both SB charges are blown already. That seems unlikely.

Nightbane has a slow enough swing timer that you have plenty of time to pop up the next SB before the last charge is blown. Prince on the other hand will instant-thrash, which eats both of your SB charges, and then hit you while SB is down possibly causing a crush. If you get thrash/thrash/crushed, that's about 14k of damage worst case. Nothing to do with your machine.

Are you 100% sure (wow web stats, some combat log auditing, etc) that you're taking crushing blows? And if so are you ALWAYS putting it back on the instant it comes off of cooldown?

I kinda accept that Prince will crush, that's just the nature of that fight.

But nightbane has crushed me for a killing blow, or blow before the killing blow, at least twice based on scrolling the combat log.

Lurker was weird, I just simply died as soon as he popped out of the water. I didn't have time to check the combat log, and didn't have the heart to ask if someone was running grim reaper.

Al'ar - another tank had grim reaper and both times it was a crushing blow. RL was pretty pissed given that we've killed Al'ar twice, and now haven't killed him in three weeks since. (not all my fault, but just one factor.)

Al'ar is particuarlly painful cause the transitions were both platform 4->1, which means the healers have to run to get into range, so a crush can end things quickly.

I'm beginning to think it's the stutter, if my latency is really staying at 150 ms. I would love to pick up a new 'puter but that's not going to happen right now.

So, I need to run down where the stutter is coming from, I guess. Goign to try the mods and see if dumping those will clear that up. If it's a freeze up, that could be a big problem.

Ratholorn
02-21-2008, 04:26 PM
150ms is hardly to blame - as a warrior that MTs from Australia we typically raid with 400ms latency (I've had it as low as 300 on good nights) but your FPS is could be. I rarely go below 30 FPS I'd say in full-blown combat.

Worldie
02-21-2008, 07:30 PM
I've always been used to raid with 300 ms and 10 FPS as both Paladin and Warrior, it's not a issues as long as you literally spam the shield button :)

Finelle
02-21-2008, 09:16 PM
IIRC, a boss with a swing timer of less than 2.5 sec has a chance to land a nonblocked attack even with Shield Block up. I posted up a thread on getting crushed too and it was pointed out that any boss that could chew through two charges in 5 seconds would render a warrior non crush immune. I raid with 600+ ms.

Worldie
02-21-2008, 10:13 PM
That would be sooo bad luck, like getting 2-3 parries in a row and no fully avoided hits at all.

Nilya
02-22-2008, 12:24 AM
Al'ar is particuarlly painful cause the transitions were both platform 4->1, which means the healers have to run to get into range, so a crush can end things quickly.


This is semi-OT, but try having a healer designated to 1/2 and one to 3/4, and that way there will always be a healer ready for whichever side Al'ar goes to when he quills, or goes from 4 - 1.

On topic, FPS stutter can increase crush intake, I'm pretty sure. I have died in stupid places from stutter, like high-growth Gruul. However, some crushes are generally a way of life for tanks. As long as you keep the boss debuffed with Demo Shout, most of the examples you mentioned will not kill you if they crush you once here and there. It's back to back crushes that would.

Foolishness
02-22-2008, 07:49 AM
i raid with 8 fps and 400ms lag

Its not a technical thing. You are geared wrongly for those fights.

Get more avoidance.

Foolishness
02-22-2008, 07:58 AM
more specifically,

you need the badge helm

get a 51 stam darkmoon card, and another 45 stam trinket

use the boots of elusion

gem for set bonuses

put agi on your hands

the the elementium band of the sentry from arc

use your wrynn dynasty greaves

get some bracers of the green fortress

spend your badges on a decent belt instead of those rubbish threat pants

you wont lose much stam and your avoidance will go up by 10%

Dany
02-22-2008, 08:45 AM
have 2 things to add:

First, about the KTM/Omen thing, Omen can be configured so it will send informations to ktm and vice versa. KTM -> omen is tricky because you'll see people's threat on all mobs in combat instead of only on the target one. But Omen -> KTM is just the same for people who are running KTM.. Just use Omen and let ignorants use KTM :P (Yes, I prefer Omen :p).


Secondly, I dont know if your problems come from your latency or your pc's performances or something else, but I can tell you the story of the day I was tanking Morogrim, I got a huge freeze of maybe 5-8 seconds, with buggy sound, and when the game returned to normal, I was dead. All combat logs, mine and other players's who could play normally during my freeze, showed that I took 13 or 14 hits within the same second. Healers just saw my life 20k -> 0 instantly.

Wellbred
02-22-2008, 10:45 AM
Thanks for all the replies. particularly the raiders who make it clear that neither latency nor probably fps can be the ultimate cause. At this point, I'm pretty confident the issue is stutter rather than ping rate or FPS. Unfortunately I didn't determine where the stutter is coming from. The WWS stats also got posted and I did indeed eat several crushes during Al'ar.

I've pulled all the mods and went back to base WoW interface, and the result was a lower ping, around 90-120 with spikes up to 200ms, and marginally better FPS. But the stutter is still there. Qualitatively, it might have been a little less often, but not much. So, it does not appear to be a leak from one of the mods (I had high hopes.) I've also turned every setting all the way down, to no avail. About the only thing left is to do a full uninstall/reinstall and see if that helps.

Or just suck it up and go convince the spouse that I need a new machine so I can play better. :eek:

Thanks again.

Dany
02-22-2008, 11:04 AM
Remember that you will always eat crushs with bad luck, even spamming shield block because of parries or things like that. Any boss could land 3 hits in a row in 5 seconds, and this could lead to a crush.

AlmtyBob
02-22-2008, 12:43 PM
I didn't think of it before, but if you're getting occasional stuttering, have you tried disabling sound? I know you don't want to play without sound, but if you can narrow the problem down to a sound issue you can attempt to fix it (update drivers, use an external sound card, switch hardware sound to software sound, etc).