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Sylace
02-15-2008, 04:36 PM
I understand that Mitigation does suffer from diminishing returns, while armor itself does not. Each additional point of armor you add increases your survivability (defined as Time to Live) the same as the last point.

What I'm confused about then, is why do people say that Executioner (and all armor penetration) is more effective on lower armor targets? I understand that the difference in mitigation % drop will be higher when reducing the armor on lower max armor (cloth, leather) targets, but why does the same argument for survivability increase not work in the opposite direction? Is it because critical strikes now come into play?

I might just be missing something obvious, but I can't figure it out. Thanks in advance for the responses.

-Your Brother in Arms,
Sylace

Sylace
02-17-2008, 05:32 AM
Bump. No math person can explain this for me? T.T

Finelle
02-17-2008, 07:32 AM
Because you're looking at two different metrics. For tank armor, the metric we are concerned with is Time-To-Live. That increases linearly with armor. For armor penetration, we are concerned with damage dealt to target, which does not scale linearly.

Quote: Armor is a *curved* mechanism for increasing mitigation.

Armor is however a linear mechanism for increasing Time to Live.

Berginyon
02-17-2008, 07:45 AM
Here is the best mathematical explanation of armor I've come across:

The Protection Warrior - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/)

To sum it up, nothing is linear. But at the top end of armor the diminishing returns of armor and the exponential returns of relative damage reduction balance out. There is still a small diminishing return in the top end, but its negligible.

Bosses have very low armor and this top end mechanic does not apply. Your armor penetration is reducing their armor when the damage reduction ratio is very high.

Sylace
02-17-2008, 01:10 PM
@Finelle, I still don't quite understand what you mean. It seems to me that if Time-To-Live increases linearly when we add armor, how come it does not decrease linearly when we subtract armor (armor penetration)? I don't see why it would be a separate metric, since even with armor penetration, which is nothing more than taking away armor, wouldn't we still be concerned with the target's Time-To-Live?

@Berginyon, let me see if I understand what you're telling me. You're saying that Time-To-Live returns from armor are NOT in fact linear, but it's just that at the point in the curve that concerns tanking, i.e. the high end of the range, the behavior of the curve is "nearly linear", and as such we treat it that way. While when we're talking about armor penetration, it's against other players or bosses who have much lower armor values, and thus at that point in the curve see a bigger difference. Did I understand that correctly? If so, that makes perfect sense and I'll be happy :D

Thanks to both for their replies!

-Your Brother in Arms,
Sylace

Berginyon
02-17-2008, 06:48 PM
The guide I linked lists all the formulas and lists the behavior of armor at the top end of mitigation. To see how it works for armor penetration most bosses either have 6200 armor or 7700 armor. For example Vashj has 6600 which equals 37% mitigation. A stack of sunder armor is -2600, Faerie Fire is -610 and Curse of Recklessness is -800 so a raid debuffed Vashj is 2190 armor (15.8% mitigation). Just plug in the values or executioner or your armor penetration to see the % increase in DPS granted. As you stack more you will see increasing returns in DPS.

Melange
02-18-2008, 01:32 PM
Math sucks. I like this example.

Suppose you have two targets. They have the same hit points. Target one takes 10 seconds to kill and target two takes 20 seconds to kill.

Now you slap on some armor pen and target one takes 9 seconds to kill. Target two will take 19 seconds to kill.

Now suppose you are tanking and a mob takes 20 seconds to kill you. Lets say slapping on another 1000 armor makes it take 21 seconds. Then if you put on 10000 more armor it would take 30 seconds to kill you.

Basically armor DOES have diminishing returns, despite what you have heard. Armor has diminishing returns in the same way stamina has diminishing returns. Because in my mind, the way to measure armor is not in terms of time-to-live, but in percent change of time-to-live. And I think that most people would agree.

The main reason I like to look at the percent change, is because that is what we look at for every other thing in the game. When DPSing, you look at it. You look at it for mitigation. You look at it for Shield block value. It doesn't make sense to use a different metric for armor and stamina, just because they happen to be linear on that metric.