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View Full Version : Is Improved Revenge worth?



nomore
02-15-2008, 11:03 AM
Everyone seems to have a different opinion on this.
Guild is just starting out kara and we are doing a lot of heroics (quite badly in general, got mech down to a fine art but we wipe a lot in most others).
I'm just thinking is imp revenge worth me re-speccing to? is it useful on the trash? or will it have no effect on most.

Notalda
02-15-2008, 11:13 AM
I used to have it, it was great in PvP, but didn't make a difference in heroics. Except it always procced when I pulled a pack, and I stunned the mob, and had hardly any rage due to that...

On the other hand, there's not many other talents for heroic/early kara tanks where you can dump 3 points... imp. revenge is as good as any other place you'd put those.

It may worth a try, but in my experience, it isn't really noticable.

Radhja
02-15-2008, 12:44 PM
It really depends on the content you're running, and whether or not the majority of the mobs in question are even suspectible to the Revenge Stun.

As you can see by my spec (3/3 Imp. Revenge, for the lazies...), I like it. Revenge is already a fantastic ability for threat, despite it's relatively low damage. Adding a stun-type effect to it is great for multi-mob pulls where you're able to stand your ground. However, like the above poster stated, it does have a tendency to proc at the "worst" times (needing to pull a group away from another group, for example). You just have to remember not to use it until you're ready to have something stunned.

I'll probably lose Imp. Revenge once I start exploring more advanced content though, simply because I'd prefer to negate 6% spell dmg instead of randomly stunning mobs (which hampers rage generation, btw). There is give and take in all things. Consider your spec carefully. On lower-end content (such as regular and heroic instances), its both a boon and a liability; try not to cut yourself with that double-edge sword. :)

AlmtyBob
02-15-2008, 03:27 PM
My advice is don't do it. I recently respec'd to a threat heavy build and haven't look back. Improved Revenge DOES work on most Kara trash mobs but you usually won't want it to. You'll find that while charge-pulling is great in most Heroics you'll normally be ranged pulling in raids. This means you're generally starting out a pull rage starved and you have 6 or 7 DPS'ers behind you that might get a 2-in-a-row crit. If you stun a mob early on you're begging to lose aggro.

If you're thinking of spec'ing it you want it for one of two reasons. If you want it for when you lose aggro so you can prevent one shots, it's not reliable enough and putting those points into threat generating talents and instructing your guild on Omen use is a better bet. If you want it for the avoidance factor, again spec more threat which will allow for your DPS'ers to burn trash down a bit quicker which will stress your healers less.

Bottom line being a tank is about controlling a situation and 50/50 abilities like that will ultimately lead to a loss of control. Save your Concussion Blow for stunning in an emergency and disarm/clap/shout for avoidance/mitigation.

Taelas
02-15-2008, 03:40 PM
I'm sure Improved Revenge has some advantages, but in my experience, the points are better spent elsewhere.

Roana
02-15-2008, 05:01 PM
Improved Revenge is a bad talent for Karazhan (mobs either don't hit hard enough or aren't affected, there is no middle ground).

Improved Revenge is a nice mitigation talent for heroics, but I wouldn't expressly respec into it. It's something that you may want to pick up and try if you respec for other reasons, but it's not going to magically fix any problems you have.

I still have it, even though I'm overgeared for the easier heroics -- there is just no other three talent points that I consider interesting enough to burn money on a respec.

AlmtyBob
02-15-2008, 06:56 PM
@ Roana

Taking a look at your spec those 3 points being sent to Anger Management and 2 in Improved Heroic Strike would go a long ways in generating rage and threat. This is especially true if you're overgearing a Heroic and not building a lot of rage due to mitigation/avoidance.

Roana
02-15-2008, 10:59 PM
@ Roana

Taking a look at your spec those 3 points being sent to Anger Management and 2 in Improved Heroic Strike would go a long ways in generating rage and threat. This is especially true if you're overgearing a Heroic and not building a lot of rage due to mitigation/avoidance.

That would be a good idea if I had threat problems. Since I don't generally have threat problems (at least none that could be addressed by that change), I do not see a need to respec.

And yes, I've considered moving the points there. Or to Improved Defensive Stance. In either case, the benefit is so very marginal that it's not worth the gold to me.

Roana
02-16-2008, 01:07 AM
Just to clarify: I don't say that I can magically generate infinite threat. But generally I either generate plenty of threat (rage-rich environment), or I'm rage-starved. If I'm rage-starved, I don't use Heroic Strike at all, and may instead Devastate with a slow-as-heck weapon. Improved Heroic Strike does not fix a single thing for me if I don't Heroic Strike to begin with, and Anger Management's 1 rage every three seconds is not going to make or break it, either.

In general, either I'm way ahead of the DPS, or way behind their potential DPS -- the latter usually because there are knockdowns or periods where I'm not getting hit (think Big Bad Wolf). There are pretty much no situations where DPS are just barely ahead of me in their DPS potential.

I generally don't like throwing a lot of points into very marginal talents; I am not doing 25-mans, I am not a threat-bot that sets the DPS cap for the rest of the raid. There are not enough force multipliers in play for me to make marginal talents worthwhile, in short. If I need to adjust for threat, I can generally do that through gear changes without having to respec each time.

Katos
02-16-2008, 02:04 AM
Just to clarify: I don't say that I can magically generate infinite threat. But generally I either generate plenty of threat (rage-rich environment), or I'm rage-starved. If I'm rage-starved, I don't use Heroic Strike at all, and may instead Devastate with a slow-as-heck weapon. Improved Heroic Strike does not fix a single thing for me if I don't Heroic Strike to begin with, and Anger Management's 1 rage every three seconds is not going to make or break it, either.

In general, either I'm way ahead of the DPS, or way behind their potential DPS -- the latter usually because there are knockdowns or periods where I'm not getting hit (think Big Bad Wolf). There are pretty much no situations where DPS are just barely ahead of me in their DPS potential.

I generally don't like throwing a lot of points into very marginal talents; I am not doing 25-mans, I am not a threat-bot that sets the DPS cap for the rest of the raid. There are not enough force multipliers in play for me to make marginal talents worthwhile, in short. If I need to adjust for threat, I can generally do that through gear changes without having to respec each time.

Generally speaking what you say here is for the most part is true. However, those that are trying to min/max their character for optimal performance, the improved HS and anger management are vastly superior to imp revenge.

Simply put, imp HS increase the Threat per Rage or TPR of heroic strike by leaps and bounds. Also, anger management, though may sound a bit lacking just by reading the description, is simply another source of rage. Rage directly translates into threat for a warrior. Anger Management is a great talent for threat generation over long fights. IE: 1 rage every 3 seconds. 10 rage over 30 seconds. 20 rage every minute. Many fights can last several minutes. Most warriors can rage dump fast enough that their rage rarely stays at 100% for long, and should be able to dump most of their rage over the course of a few seconds. a 5 minute fight = 100 extra rage that warrior had access to throughout the course of the fight.

In short, both talents are quite nice, and are extremely viable for any prot warrior. This is not to say however that your current build with imp revenge isn't going to be acceptable. I'm not even saying that min/max warriors should choose these talents. It's obvious there is not 'perfect build'. I'm simply making the arguments for Imp HS and Anger Management as I see them.

Sydal
02-16-2008, 07:28 AM
Personally, I can find a lot better uses for my talent points in the Protection tree than Improved Revenge. That isn't to say Imp Revenge isn't good, it's just that the Protection tree is so full of good talents that it often gets left behind. If I was going back to do 5mans and some heroics to get a bunch of guild alts geared up I might take it, but I still can't be sure.

Roana
02-16-2008, 11:22 AM
Generally speaking what you say here is for the most part is true. However, those that are trying to min/max their character for optimal performance, the improved HS and anger management are vastly superior to imp revenge.

I know that -- but I was given advice on how to improve my spec that I had not requested. But I am entirely familiar with the benefit of each and every talent and can express that benefit mathematically if needed. If I am not taking it, that is an informed choice knowing the advantages and disadvantages. It is not ignorance.

Also, "vastly superior" is a misnomner. It is better for threat. It's not "vastly superior". Anger Management means 20 more rage per minute, Improved Heroic Strike means that if you use Heroic Strike on every single attack with a 1.5 speed weapon, 2/3 Improved Heroic Strike means that for every 7-9 Heroic Strikes you get in, you get another Heroic Strike. Those are improvements that are in the low-single digit range of percentages under good conditions. The benefit of Improved Heroic Strike disappears entirely in a rage-starved environment or infinite-rage environment, the benefit of Anger Management disappears entirely in an infinite rage environment.

The reason why I have considered Improved Heroic Strike and Anger Management is that it could smooth out threat generation. I am talking here about situations with miss streaks or knockdowns -- in the former case, Anger Management supplies some additional rage, in the latter, I can use Heroic Strike to burn through surplus rage faster and catch up to DPS that are oblivious to threat meters (shouldn't happen, but we all know it does from time to time).

Consider also that I may be tanking totally different content than you, which, while it has a higher margin of error, is also more dynamic than tanking a run-of-the-mill raid boss where you mostly just stand in one place and spam threat and shield block (yes, I know that there are exceptions, such as Leotheras the Blind, but they are, well, exceptions). When I tank Keli'dan the Breaker in heroic Blood Furnace, having 15 rage left over after using Intercept to get back in will do more for my threat generation than Anger Management + Heroic Strike. When I tank the Felguard Annihilators just before him, any Improved Revenge proc makes it less likely that I'll get hit with the freight train of 22k+ burst damage that they are capable of combined. I don't have any guarantees to survive those fights, so I'll take any edge I can get. In short, a lot of what I am doing cannot be reduced to simple TPS and incoming DPS models.

Moshzilla
02-17-2008, 05:48 PM
I respecc'd to Imp. Revenge about a week or two ago just for Heroics and it is great. Very useful, in general it reduces your healing needed, and you find it worthwhile on casters.

Doubles for solo questing or grinding.

I would probably keep it for Kara, though I havn't been there much, as I would still be running Heroics, but if I was hitting SSC and above I would definately lose it.

Nilya
02-17-2008, 11:03 PM
I personally do not like it at all, shutting off my rage batteries at random does not make me happy. If I were still wearing the blues I started doing heroics in a long time ago, I would consider it. However, it can be a valuable mitigation talent, if you spend enough time in content where the mobs are often affected.

Clyde
02-19-2008, 08:29 AM
Just a thought here that I had not seen expressed, and I'm not trying to discuss the specific request, but I'd say "ask your healer."

Tanking is a three-legged stool, the legs being threat generation, mitigation and healing. The trade off that's mainly being discussed is a trade off on the length of the threat gen and mitigation legs... ask your healer his / her opinion is my answer!

If your healers says "shoot, you're easy to keep up, but on those big pulls I'm spamming on everyone" go threat gen. If your healer says "clear everywhere else but I'm struggling keeping you up" go mitigation.

It's easy to believe you have threat well under control, or that you have very solid mitigation. But your healer knows for dang sure. Ask!

Kahmal
02-19-2008, 12:57 PM
If your running Heroics or just progressing Karazhan, this is worth it, no doubt. Its probably my favorite talent on the tree.

It does wonders when your not in complete epics yet. It helps a lot in Multi Pulls as a stun and also in Heroics when your dealing with high damage dealing mobs, it provides ALOT help in reducing the overrall damage you'll take. Or if your healer is undergeared it helps as well.

Once you start to out gear Heroics and Karazhan and start pushing Gruul or SSC, you'll just want to respec to pure basic raid tanking talents, I swapped Imp Revenge for Imp Defence Stance.

I recommend Imp Shield Bash to for Heroics to pull those annoying casters. Both talents make you quite a bother in PvP. I could shut healers down.