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Lit
02-14-2008, 12:41 PM
So who here can put out some threat on a single target NPC? Please post how much on average you threat and on what boss. I want to know if anyone out there is trying to pull off 2,000 TPS not spiking this, doing it. The only dps item I would think you might use are your main hand and range weapon. If you had more than that you might just be wasting the raids time.

Crimsonstorm
02-14-2008, 01:51 PM
2000 TPS isnt really possible except for a spike. I've seen that much on spikes, but it doesnt last.

I generally do 1200-1500 depending on the fight. 1200 is modertate rage environment, 1500 high.

Thats with:
1) 12/5/44 spec with all the good threat talents.
2) SS/Rev/Dev/Dev rotation
3) Heroic strike on most attacks on bosses (~2/3rds of attacks). I have low avoidance ~43% miss+parry+dodge, so I get lots of rage,
4) 820 block value, 20 expertise and some hit rating, plus atuoblocker and T5 set bonus block value boosts.

I use Vengeful Gladiator's war edge in the ranged slot. Its kind of like a Khorium gun with a 17 crit/30 ap gem in it. :)

When autoblocker is active my TPS tends to be around 1500-1800 depending on misses and crits, and when not active about 1200-1500.

I could imagine 2000 tps for a T6 level tank stacking block value, with the new 2.4 gear, capped expertise, block value metagem, T6 4 set bonus (using the t6 pieces with block value or expertise), and alternate pieces with block vlaue in other slots.

elio
02-14-2008, 02:00 PM
Maybe I am wrong on this and correct me if I am, but the only way I can see this happen is by stacking SBV/Hit and expertise. Which would make tanking a hard hiting boss in BT/MH a very hard endevour, since I think you maybe sacrificing a good part of your avoidance. Again this is in my current gear level and my experience. I am not in full T6- but have decent mix of BT/MH tanking pieces.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Bulldozer)

link to my armory.

Crimsonstorm
02-14-2008, 02:08 PM
Actually, I find reducing avoidance to increase block value increases your survivability against bosses, while also increasing threat generation.

The avoidance pretty must just turns some of your healer's heals into overheals, and gives you less rage.

Aelvain
02-14-2008, 02:15 PM
2,000 could only be possible in a high damage situation with abnormally low avoidance and capped hit/expertise I would imagine. The highest I've seen/heard of is ~1,600 from a warrior with something like 35 expertise, 4 piece t6 and nearly capped hit. If you seriously think that's possible pre-Sunwell only by sacrificing hp/avoidance in the weapon and ranged slots you're either misinformed or ignorant.

elio
02-14-2008, 02:15 PM
I wouldn't sacrifice some of my avoidance for other stats for tanking Bloodboil or Gorefiend and the likes of them.

Aelvain
02-14-2008, 02:18 PM
Actually, I find reducing avoidance to increase block value increases your survivability against bosses, while also increasing threat generation.


How does reducing avoidance to increase block value also increase your survivability against bosses? Let's see some actual statistics or intelligent reasoning, I don't see how BV could possibly be more desirable as a survival stat than avoidance. I understand why you prefer BV, but let's not be straight up ignorant.

Ekarderif
02-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Because in most situations, all attacks are either blocked or avoided. BV mitigates blocked damage whereas the avoided values often just turn heals to overheals.

Notalda
02-14-2008, 02:42 PM
My highest sustained TPS was 1450-1550 on Teron Gorefiend. Capped expertise, almost capped hit (7.6% with draenei racial), around 700 SBV and 4/5 T5. The (4) on T5 kept proccing all the time, and I managed to maintain that TPS for about 15 seconds. Then I popped recklessness and auto-blocker and had a spike of around 2.5k-3k until it lasted. But that's a bit of cheating I guess :)

Aelvain
02-14-2008, 03:03 PM
Sorry for the thread derailment, but I can't stand random assertions with no backup, especially by someone marked as a community author whom many people will assume is correct. :P

Let's look at a somewhat low avoidance tank with say, 45% total dodge/parry/chance to be missed. 55/100 attacks land. Add 1% avoidance to make that 46%. 54/100 attacks land. You just reduced your overall physical damage taken by 1.8%. This reduction only goes up as you add more avoidance, up to (theoretically) infinite damage reduction if you go from 99% to 100% avoidance.

Let's say you have 500 BV, a value I'd consider probably pretty average. If a boss hit you for 4,000 on average pre-block (a very low number compared to the average of BT/MH), you are hit for 3,500. Your block value gave you 12.5% damage reduction. To reduce your blocked damage taken by 1.8%, (3,500 * .018) you'd need to block 63 more damage. With the talent, that just means ~48.5 BV to achieve 1.8% damage reduction on blocked attacks. So I guess the comparison would be if 18.9 dodge rating is the same cost in terms of itemization points as 48.5 Block Value. I'll be honest in saying that I don't know how much the two stats are worth in comparison to each other, but given the fact that block value is most likely weighted heavier since it's both a threat and mitigation stat, while dodge is purely an avoidance stat, I'm gonna guess that 48.5 block value costs more in terms of itemization points.

That's not even taking into account the fact that avoidance reduces crushing blows and the number of spikes you take, as well as the fact that at such a low avoidance level not every attack is even going to be blocked (depending on boss, but I see logs of people with ~45% avoidance getting crushed by the slow hitter of BT, Gorefiend). If you increase avoidance to the point where a larger % of attacks that land on you are blocked, avoidance becomes even better point for point since it scales with more avoidance pretty tremendously. For example, I have around 65% avoidance depending on my set, so adding 1% more reduces my damage taken by ~2.8%, compared to 1.8% with 45% avoidance. Then of course let's remember my example hit for abnormally small amounts compared to most BT/MH bosses, meaning it favored block value more than most bosses normally would.

Block Value is a great stat for threat and a little bit of mitigation at the same time, but let's not pretend it's something it's most definitely not - a key survivability stat. Avoidance, Stamina, and Armor are the important stats to look to if you want to increase your survival.

Crimsonstorm
02-14-2008, 03:06 PM
ok, Block value vs Avoidance:

On a boss, youre going to hit shield block every 5 seconds and block every attack. (And if you dont, youre left open to crushes, which will kill you even with avoidance, assumin you dont have so much avoidance as to be reaching uncrushable status (which is another discussion entirely).

When you suffer burst damage, you should thus block at least 2 hits during that time. Every point of block value is thus worth 2 hp worth of damage prevention. Thus block value is increasing your effective health.


Block value is a 'cheap' itemization stat, like stamina. You get 1.5 block value for the same itemization points as 1 defense rating or dodge rating.


Lets compare the benefit of adding 5% more avoidance, versus the equivalent block value.

5% avoidance is ~94.5 dodge rating or ~98.5 defense rating.
Going with the dodge rating, that 94.5 dodge rating is 142 block value.

Basically, if you had equivalent items, but one had dodge and the other block value, you'd get 142 block value if you gave up 5% avoidance.


When multiplied by the shield mastery talent (+30% BV), that turns into 185 Block Value, and thus is worth as much effective health as 370 hp.

Now certainly, this isnt as much effective health as you'd be getting from stamina, but it does give damage prevention and a big threat boost in addition.

The extra effective health granted by this block value is imo, more valuable to your survival than adding more avoidance. (Or at least, its about as valuable). This is due to how you die (burst damage), and the manner in which healing works (healers healing preemptively - dodging an attack usually wont do anything because the heal is coming anyway, whereas more effective health gives you more leeway to survive burst damage.

Avoidance doesnt help you survive burst damage, it just makes those bursts happen LESS OFTEN. If they STILL KILL YOU, that didnt help. I dont want to 'maybe, if I dont get unlucky' be able to tank Gorefiend, I want to be able to 100% consistently tank him. You do that with effective health.


That the block value has a large additional threat benefit, AND doesnt screw up your rage the way avoidance does, just makes it MUCH better imo.

Aelvain
02-14-2008, 03:16 PM
How often is even 185 Block Value going to make a difference in survival? Effective health is subject to random chance just as much as avoidance. I understand that you prefer it because it offers threat, slight mitigation, and at the same time doesn't really worsen your rage generation. But saying:


Actually, I find reducing avoidance to increase block value increases your survivability against bosses

Is clearly wrong - how does spike reduction not matter? I'll get more in depth when I get back from work.

Crimsonstorm
02-14-2008, 03:28 PM
If I have 50% avoidance, the chance of taking 3 straight hits is 12.5%
If 45%, the chance is 16.64%.

50% avoidance gets into 'scary' situations about 75% as often as 45%. (12.5/16.64)


The avoidance method is to keep reducing the chance of getting the dangerous string of hits. It reduces chance of death.


The effective health method is to simply get enough effective health that the scary strings of hits CANT KILL YOU, so that you only ever die if something goes really wrong, like healers are dead. Block value puts you closer to doing this and avoidance does it.

If you have enough armor, stam, and block value, then avoidance ceases to matter because it doesnt matter how often you take the hits, you STILL LIVE. Once you have plenty of effective health for the encounter, you dont gain benefit from increasing avoidance, you just lose rage and lose threat. So when you DO have plenty of effective health, its best to get more threat/mitigation stats like block value. You cant ever have too much block value.

When you DONT have enough effective health to always survive, you have two options:
1) Increase avoidance: This reduces your chance of death by reducing the chance that burst damage will occur. Doing this will turn hard bosses into less difficult bosses, that still might kill you but do it less often.
2) Increase effective health: If you do this enough, then you CANT die. Doing this is the way to turn hard bosses into guaranteed successes.


Effective health rules all on difficult bossesthat are hard to survive. Block value = more effective health+threat, avoidance is no more effective health and LESS threat.

For farm bosses, block value = more threat, avoidance = less threat.


Its just a BETTER STAT than avoidance. Against both progression bosses, and farm bosses, and especially on trash!

Bones
02-14-2008, 04:24 PM
I can't remember wiping because Crimson died in well forever. Our second string man gears very similiar to Crimson, and I can only think of 1 wipe caused by his death. Take that however you like.

I've taken to gearing for avoidance because I usually only get 1 healer and I don't really have to worry about being instagibbed. This allows my healer to conserve mana, but if for some reason Crimson and Mordium fall of the face of the planet and I'm called to fill their shoes, you can bet I'll be back to armor/stam/BV > all.

Ekarderif
02-14-2008, 04:31 PM
The problem with avoidance is that it does not always reduce damage. Yes, technically it will always reduce damage taken, but what matters is not damage taken, it is what damage is healed.

Avoidance relies upon chance. By stacking more avoidance, you reduce the chance that something will happen, but it is not completely eliminated. In many (most?) raid scenarios, healers are constantly preempting spells on the main tank. Assuming everyone plays perfectly, the healers will cancel the heals if the tank does not need it.

But life is not perfect. A variety of reasons can happen so that the healers cannot or will not cancel their next heal (lag, safety, no mana issues, etc.). Under the circumstance where you receive a full overheal, avoidance does absolutely nothing (actually it is worse because you do not gain rage from the hit). Sure you just dodged an 8000 hit, but your healer just finished casting an 8000 heal. While it does not happen all of the time, it happens more than you would anticipate. Avoidance does indeed reduce damage taken in the long run and theoretically it reduces healer mana consumption, but in reality, this is not as a big of difference as expected.

Block value, on the other hand, is very reliable as all attacks are almost always avoided or blocked. In this case, having extra block value does have a noticeable effect. That 8000 hit is now down to 7200. With smaller hits, healers can always cast weaker heals because it is predictable damage mitigation. In addition, block value, like avoidance, has increasing effectiveness when stacked (unlike armor and stamina, which have linear returns by themselves). Of course, block value mitigation fails when attacks eat through shield block, but most bosses do not behave like this.

Granted, the real question boils down to whether the healers are capable of canceling their heals to maximize the utility of avoidance. But you cannot simply ignore the mitigation provided by block value because it is constant and definitely not negligible.

Crimsonstorm
02-14-2008, 04:37 PM
Yes I know that increasing avoidance will reduce the amount of damage taken over time by the most.

1% more avoidance will reduce your overall damage taken over a 4 hour raid by more than more block value or more armor.


When I first started tanking (a year ago), I did this math on avoidance vs armor vs stamina vs block value and found avoidance to be the best way to decrease overall damage. So I stacked it excessively.

Result: I got 3 shotted by trash in Kara, when my avoidance didnt work, and had poor threat generation. Not to mention randomly dying on bosses like Maiden, Romeo...when we'd killed those bosses before. I couldnt even think of tanking Prince or Nightbane.


I then read Ciderhelm's guide and began stacking Armor, Stamina, and Block value, and greatly reduced my avoidance. Suddenly I almost never died anymore, AND my threat generation went up dramatically! It was even


Why? Because no amount of avoidance makes you invincible.
High stam/armor/block value (for your progression level) + relatively reliable incoming heals = basically invincible + high threat generation.
High avoidance = lots of dodging/no rage, with occasional 'zomg it hit me 3 times in a row and I'm dead'.


The only way to be unkillable is to have high stam/armor/block value. High avoidance will just make you randomly die less often.

The only way to generate exceptional threat that will never make your DPS have to hold back is to have high block value, good expertise, and only moderate avoidance so that you get rage consistently.

Crimsonstorm
02-14-2008, 04:39 PM
The time when avoidance is good is in a single-healer situation on a mob that will not do crazy burst damage, in a situation where you ar enot tanking the primary (first) kill target and thus not threat capping your dps.

It thus can be good for offtanking. Its really not very good at all for main takning.

Aelvain
02-14-2008, 07:51 PM
You're totally, completely missing the point. Nearly everyone here just assumes that any phrase that doesn't say something along the lines of "block value/stamina/armor are the best!" is saying avoidance is better overall. I'm not saying that! I'm contesting this phrase that you incorrectly used to prove a point.


Actually, I find reducing avoidance to increase block value increases your survivability against bosses

I'm not saying dodge is more important than block value. I'm not saying EH doesn't matter. I'm not saying threat doesn't matter. What I am saying is that that phrase is blatantly wrong. Purely in terms of survivability, avoidance does more than block value. You've pretty much proven this with your math, but then went on to talk about rage starvation, threat, etc. As you yourself have shown, block value is pretty weak in terms of the EH it gives you, as its strength is providing a decent threat boost as well as minor mitigation. As you've shown, avoidance noticeably reduces the chances you'll take a spike. I'd like to see justifying the choice of block value over dodge on, say, Archimonde or Mother, where threat is hardly an issue.

That's great that you haven't been killed, I only recall dying once in the past 4-5 months and that was on Archimonde due to healer error, so that doesn't prove anything. My point is block value is point for point worse as a survival stat! Math has proven it, logic has proven it, and pretty much anyone will agree with it. I'm not saying anything about if avoidance is better than block value in general...simply that it does more to boost your survivability than block value. Nothing about threat! :mad:

loadtoad
02-14-2008, 08:33 PM
I always find these discussions interesting. Cause in the end both sides are right . Why do I have to give up EH to have good avoidance and vice versa? A happy medium is really where I think blizzard would like everyone to be. Of course there will always be fights/encounters that require specialized gearing. My personal math is wear the best piece for the slot gem for stamina and the rest kinda works itself out. Keep a few pieces around for threat sensitive/magic/whatever fights.

Do you really need an avoidance/threat/sbv/whatever you can think of sets? IMO no but you don't have to listen to me. Don't get me started on resist sets cause those you need.

Lastly, my pet peeve since I am here. All these kids running around in badge gear complaining that kara mobs don't hit them and they never have rage. Please get a clue you out gear the content either move to harder content or stfu.

Bigstik
02-14-2008, 08:47 PM
Also keep in mind that SBV loses potency with harder-hitting NPCs (500 BV on 1000 hits is 50%, while it's only 10% of 5000, obviously). That said, I feel safer with high SBV and lower avoidance, as when your health dips low, you can't necessarily count on avoidance, but you can almost always count on a block. Also, has anyone ever seen a string of dodges with blood rage on cooldown, followed by a crush due to rage starvation? It's the reason I took up AM in the first place.

Aelvain
02-14-2008, 10:34 PM
If I see another person imply that avoidance is subject to random chance while stamina isn't I'm going to gouge my eyes out with a spoon. :eek:

Finelle
02-15-2008, 03:38 AM
I only do avoidance against dualwield bosses, because the increasing returns of each extra percent of avoidance gets pretty ridiculous once you start hitting the 70%s.

Lit
02-15-2008, 05:08 AM
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/e65w2ya2wa1ke?s=6661-6928)

Teron

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korialstrasz&n=L%C3%AEt)
Lit MT


I would do the math but I do not know the formula.

Grabmill
02-15-2008, 05:49 AM
Check out Kenneth Gant Niebuhr - Online portfolie (http://www.coolyo.org/index.php?area=threat)

1280 TPS for you there Lit.

Marn
02-15-2008, 06:07 AM
All these kids running around in badge gear complaining that kara mobs don't hit them and they never have rage. Please get a clue you out gear the content either move to harder content or stfu.
Well, yeah I mean, when you upgrade your gear, easier content should get harder, right? Because that makes sense. Or it could be that it's a fault on Blizzard's part where tanking is the only role in which getting better gear makes our job harder. But this is a pretty big issue that I don't want to derail this thread with because it's been discussed before in other threads.






Anyway, I break 1700 sustained TPS on Rage Winterchill when I stand in Death and Decay, is this cheating lol

Bigstik
02-15-2008, 06:22 AM
If I see another person imply that avoidance is subject to random chance while stamina isn't I'm going to gouge my eyes out with a spoon. :eek:

Please explain your problem with my statement. 8 dodge rating spent on a gem is 100% reduction in damage taken 0.4% of the time, and that itemization is not in effect when a hit occurs. Stamina, whether you're hit or you dodge, reliably increases your total sustainable damage.

SuperFlounder
02-15-2008, 07:51 AM
To kind of refocus this on the OP's question, I find that in high rage situations, tanking SSC/TK trash in t5 gear, I average 1.3 k tps and can easily top 1.6 - 2.5 k tps in 5 second bursts with consistency. This is not because I'm oh so good at threat, its because they put me in the melee group with the enhancement shammy :P. I find that especially with windfury, +hit + expertise at the cost of block value is something to consider. You might find yourself gearing a bit more like dps in order to take advantage of it, although the Autoblocker is still always equipped, starting off with that will just guarantee your agro is idiot dps proof. Unaided with Windfury I get by with 1 k tps or more, with far fewer 1.6 - 2 k spikes.

As for the the bit of EH + Block Value vs. Avoidance, btw hi thread hijacking, how are you? What are we arguing again, is it EH or Block Value as the most effective way to take damage vs avoidance? Seems like people are throwing the argument into whatever contenxt they want. The point of EH is to maximize the damge you can take in the worst case scenario so... saying block value is EH is like saying its a "worse case, but actually not worst case cuz I blocked" scenario. Stamina is not random is the same sense dodge is, but block value is by no means comparable to stamina, unless you are passively uncrushable. When it comes to stamina, I think by random Aelvain means that your current HP is inately reliant on the random rolls already made, such as you having 2150 and another tank with 2030 having health left, whether you live longer or not is dependent on the boss's damage roll being within that tiny window. Sometimes you know it will be, sometimes you don't. I don't gem avoidance or anything, I gem stamina usually, just explaining where he's coming from.

If your avoidance is low enough compared to the number of attacks you'll see in a 5 second span, and yeah it can, so that you're getting crushed regulary, you better have enough block value to make up for that 1.5 x damage you'll take every 5 second window. I use 45-55% avoidance on the kind of boss fights that are tough (e.i Tidalvess or Morogrim) because I don't find rage to be an issue and any more avoidance would sacrifce too much health. I do find that in a progression atmosphere, taking less damage is often underrated... I guess some people's healers never go down? I can say on the night we got Vashj down, one of my healers went down to a cleave from an elite (MIDDLE WITH VASHJ PEOPLE, MIDDLE!), and once p3 hit, my remaining healers were glad for my higher avoidance giving them breathing room to move, on the other hand, I was glad to have more than 20k hp so I could absorb two frost shocks if it came to that if the shammies went down.

Bigstik
02-15-2008, 07:59 AM
Sorry for hijacking.

On topic again for myself as well: I've found that (no drawn-out testing done here, just observations from DPSers and myself watching omen) GoA+FT, WF, and LotP are roughly equivalent in bonus TPS; get more than one and you won't lose threat if you DC. The mob we use to test tanks' threat output is FLK boglord trash. They don't have any special activities like spell reflect or constant repositioning, so it's a good gauge for our content level as to which tanks can dish it and which can't. That said, I usually push 1350 constant with GoA+FT, WF, or LotP with Executioner'd Mallet, 4/5 T4, and Auto-blocker.

Also, ever lined up HS with a SS on a sheep? I've seen some sick threat yields from those situations, numbers that shouldn't ever appear on a threat meter; it may be that it's dividing the threat I dish in a single moment and comparing it to the 0.001 seconds I've been in combat with said mob. Either way, it makes me smile.

SuperFlounder
02-15-2008, 08:25 AM
yeah, I love breaking sheep that way, its all a vanity thing ofcourse, but we deserve a little bit of a ego boost for the thankless job of tanking trash.

Lit
02-15-2008, 11:51 AM
So what do you see on omen I was spiking 4k on omen, but the math is math #_#

SuperFlounder
02-15-2008, 12:06 PM
I don't know the exact number in that quick spike I've seen, but it was much higher than 4k, ofcourse the number you see is probably more reliant on your framerate and latency that it is the actual damage on your SS and HS do.

Aelvain
02-15-2008, 03:36 PM
Yeah SuperFlounder basically has it. EH still relies on a random roll to determine how hard the boss hits, and stacking EH increases your chance that the random roll doesn't go over your current hp, just like avoidance decreases the chance you'll be hit.

But seriously the whole jumping to conclusions thing kinda is driving me nuts, I was never saying that avoidance is more important than block value or anything. Just that saying BV increases your chance to survive proportionally more than avoidance is clearly wrong. Nothing more than that. :p

Hardboiled
02-26-2008, 08:17 PM
I think what's being argued is semantics. You can argue that most everything in the game is subject to randomness, since almost everything is subject to a 'roll'.

I believe what others are trying to say is that benefit of SBV is constant for any non-lethal hit, since the assumption is that every landing attack will be blocked. There is also the assumption that we meet the minimum EH requirements for any particular fight.

I'm not at the progression level some of you are (getting ready to step foot into MH), but my own subjective experience has been that increasing my EH has made things safer for the raid, even on the hardest hitting bosses. Not just on surviving the big hits, but all the other things that have been talked about - higher threat translates into quicker boss kills, less instagibs, and consistent rage generation to ensure I never get rage starved at a bad time.

Once again, that's making certain assumptions: I meet the minimum EH requirements for a particular fight, the healers aren't stopping casts to conserve mana, and every attack is blocked.

influxreptile
02-27-2008, 12:29 AM
To answer the writer of the thread.

Best i've done so far is an average of 1612 on Teron Gorefiend.

I'm hit capped, using 25 expertise and quite high block value.

Gorefiend is the boss I usually ask for a perfect tank group just for the fun to see those high numbers pop up. I had a feral druid, a dps warrior and a resto (not enhancement :'( ) shaman in my group at that time. I reckon the heroism increased the average TPS since i was going well above 2k during it (2.2-2.6). I was using an agility pot, strenght food, a strenght scroll and an agility scroll and one of those gifts of arthas (just to have something as a guardian potion that increases TPS by a tiny bit). I used auto-blocker and bloodlust brooch (hah !) as trinkets.

Next week i'm gonna ask for 2 shamans. 1 enhancement (for the improved totems) giving windfury, while the other one gives me agility. Oh and I'm using rage pots just in case after all this I go to a moment of rage starvation :>.

I kind of calculated average threat by deviding total threat with the amount of time the encounter took. I reckon my average TPS was even a bit higher if you take those 6-7 seconds in account where he's getting pulled.

I'd post a screenshot but I kind of missed it since we had ghosts alive at the kill moment and this pretty much screwed up my meters.
__________________________________________________ _____________

Then about the other discussion going on here. This is what I usually try to do :

1) keep 45-50% avoidance unbuffed (dodge+parry+chance to be missed)
2) Stay hit-capped (I'm not scared of even gemming a 10 hit gem in order to maintain this, I will not be rage-starved tbh)
3) Keep your expertise around 25 (Be sure dodge is gone from the table)
4) After these 3 start stacking block value on all other slots. (Also meaning that you should get the ZG enchant and not the crappy tbc one -> head slot that is)
5) Fill the rest of your sockets with stamina

A short explanation. I personally feel that as soon as I go over 50% avoidance that I start getting rage starved and/or taking unpredictable spike damage causing healers to overheal quite often which will often. undo the actual use of stacking avoidance (healer mana management).

Expertise can also be seen as a great mitigation/ threat stat. Reducing parry chance with 7% or more simply means less chance to take a large burst from a boss. This imo is more important to avoid than taking 2-3 hits in a row without the increased haste effect and therefore I don't really mind sacrificing a couple of % of dodge/parry for expertise in order to keep a decent amount.

Block value is a SOLID damage reduction on each hit taken. I've seen people claiming that "hp + armor + avoidance" is the way to reduce damage taken. Could those people please explain me why armor would be more viable than block value ? It's pretty much thesame : less damage taken on the hits you actually don't avoid, while block value adds threat to that. Armor comes with gear, there's really no use trying to get more doing silly stuff. HP is nice, but frankly said I barely ever drop under 30% HP. Whether I've got 22 or 24k buffed in a raid isn't really going to make the difference (not at this time anyways with current bosses).

I hear that in quite the number of guilds at loads of encounters (don't bother mentioning bloodboil, I mean real encounters with real threat from 1 tank) the tank decides how far the dps can go. I've never experienced this with this kind of gear setup. At illidan the dps gets heroism at the start and with the current icy veins stack the mages do insane dps at that time. Still at the end of the phase no one seems so be closer than 67-68% of my threat, meaning they can pretty much do double damage (people are doing around 1400-1500 dps at that phase, so that makes around 1050 tps with salvation, meaning most will be slightly under 1k tps with their respective talents. I'm throwing around 1400 tps at him during that phase).

Block value / expertise / hit will make your dps happy and add to your damage taken per hit and reduce the chance of taking a burst. Avoidance will make your healers happy until a certain point. Then it will just make them scared when they see you not taking damage for 15 seconds straight, then getting double parried and pretty much dying before they can react.

Just my personal opinion. I'm pretty sure you can actually tank all bosses using T6 gemmed with mp5 and enchanting your gear with healer stuff. Not that it's going to be the best way but there's just that much space at this time.

SuperFlounder
02-27-2008, 08:45 AM
Well, first, let me say, Influxreptile, you're farther ahead than me so I'm sure you know your stuff. I pretty much agree with most of the 5 specific points you outlined in gearing.

However, I disagree with your statement about block value being being equal to armor or stam in terms of staying alive. In the most basic sense, as you know, it all comes down to the specific fight, in some fights block value will take care of a lot of the damage, in others it won't. Armor scales, block value does not. The fact that you might not have SB up is a subject that's an entirely different post altogether.

Let's compare items with special uses on a boss fight, Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker and the Adamantite Figurine. For instance DW mechanic bosses usually hit with smaller melee attack. Let's say, at 17000 armor and 800 block (not that the current block is important) you are taking 4000, the block value off the autoblocker use saves you 200 on each block, resulting in a 5 percent reduction of that attack. The use off the Adamantite Figurine, a trinket that is blue quality and same item level as the auto blocker, would give a 1.75 percent reduction over the same period. Obviously the auto is the better choice.

However, there are many places you can get hit for more than 11k, enrage timers, melted armor, Gruul growths. At the same level of block and armor, the two trinkets will end up mitigating the same amount of damage with their procs. I used the Adamantite Figurine vs. the Auto-blocker, because obviously the adamantite figurine is supposed to be a weaker item, budget wise, and it allows some actual perceptive. You say armor comes with gear, well, it wouldn't, if you're theory is to stack block, like t4 chest over t5. Since I know you don't mean that, the adamantite vs. auto-blocker was one of the few things to compare.

That being said, obviously the agro generation aspect of the auto blocker makes it amazingly more valuable than its mere mitigation. As for stam.. well, instant magic attacks that many melee bosses have, being stunned, the list is practically never ending on the importance stam over block for surviving. Like I said, I agree with you on your end of the day, what a tank should have, but in I think you're off the mark with it comes to block vs. stam, armor for surviving fights.

Bigstik
02-27-2008, 10:29 AM
Like I said, I agree with you on your end of the day, what a tank should have, but in I think you're off the mark with it comes to block vs. stam, armor for surviving fights.

This is exactly how I explain EH to my tanks: "How many hits can you take while stunned?"

On that note, I'm aware that the threat yield per itemlevel point is higher for hit and expertise than it is for SBV, but if I'm tanking something serious, I'd prefer the mitigation granted by that SBV; I've not threat-capped a DPSer outside of VR in 9 months, so threat is not my weak point at the moment. I am, however, looking forward to the expertise and hit badge items available in 2.4; they will be a nice boost to all tanks' threat gear.

Edgewalker
03-14-2008, 01:47 PM
TPS is *not* the number you see on omen for 10 seconds, and *not* your end omen threat divided by time in combat. These are extremely inaccurate and silly ways to judge TPS. Invest in WWS and calculate via the logs for total fight time, or else you will just be misinforming others and yourself.

Also, block value and block rating is decent for crushing bosses if you are a lazy tank that hasn't bound shield block to an easily reachable key. For progression attempts, or difficult bosses, raw avoidance like dodge, miss, and parry, will always be infinitely more valuable for survivability. This becomes especially true in Sunwell, and for Illidan/Archimonde/Shahraz/I.Council, where nothing crushes. The general rule of thumb for bosses in TBC is that if it can crush, it won't gib you unless YOU make the mistake.

Foolishness
03-31-2008, 11:39 PM
Granted, the real question boils down to whether the healers are capable of canceling their heals to maximize the utility of avoidance. But you cannot simply ignore the mitigation provided by block value because it is constant and definitely not negligible.

Why do the healers have to cancel their spells? Just because they are getting over heals doesn't mean they are not doing their job.

When i tank tidewalker, the healers are told specifically to heal me no matter what, constantly, and they can have as many overheals as they like and no one will care.

This way, i am always 100% HP I very rarely drop below 50% on tidewalker, maybe once or twice per fight if i am unlucky. Sure my assigned healers have far more overheals than effective heals, but who cares? As long as the damn boss dies.

And the MT assigned healers are usually 2 pallies and 1 hot healer mostly in kara gear. They still have 50% mana at the end of the fight.

The argument between avoidance armour and block value is completely dependant on how hard the boss hits.

If a boss hits you for 10K every shot, then 180 block value is insignificant.

If a boss hits you for 3K, then 180 block value becomes worth 3 times more.

Tizack
04-01-2008, 10:35 AM
11/5/45 at the time. was on Teron Gorefiend. MY average TPS was 1680. he hits so hard u can just unload on him and with good hit and expertise never miss. plus i had a Feral druid so i had some sick Crits on SS> but i did not have windfury. i would love to try it with both to see if i could pull it off.

Edgewalker
04-02-2008, 06:25 AM
11/5/45 at the time. was on Teron Gorefiend. MY average TPS was 1680. he hits so hard u can just unload on him and with good hit and expertise never miss. plus i had a Feral druid so i had some sick Crits on SS> but i did not have windfury. i would love to try it with both to see if i could pull it off.

Which means your actual TPS was in the 1200 range.
Use WWS, or don't bother posting the values you see.

Gworn
04-14-2008, 12:22 PM
Anetheron
TPS: 1174.83 (Coolyo[dot]org (http://www.coolyo.org/index.php))
WWS Log (Gworn - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/4j2bn1jelgdku?s=3499-3786&a=2))

Group:
Feral
Offwarri
BM Hunter
Deftank
Healschaman

Talents: 12/6/43
Expertise: 33
Hitrating: 132
SBV: 562
Avoid: 59% (miss+parry+dodge)
AP: 1,2k
T5: 4/5 Boni

all buffed

Doomhamer
04-18-2008, 12:23 PM
I'm a T6 offtank with little upgrades from T6 content but i can average a 1.6-1.7k tps without 2 threat trinkets. Being an orc and on trinket click i can keep a 2k tps strain going for about 10 seconds which is pretty impressive for pre-sunwell gear.

I'm a bit over the hit cap im a aware
im raiding with a 110 expertise rating
and 500 SBV

I think alot of peoples problems with keeping there tps high with this level of gear can come from there latency and affect there rotation.

also any questions on my gear http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Quel%27dorei&n=Doomhamer (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Quel%27dorei&n=Doomhamer)

byechee
04-18-2008, 04:18 PM
for the last time, glancing at omen from time to time is not an accurate representation of true TPS. The instantaneous TPS reproted by omen is much different than average TPS for the duration of a fight. please do not call any number you see on omen "your TPS," it simply isn't accurate.

Doomhamer
04-19-2008, 09:35 AM
for the last time, glancing at omen from time to time is not an accurate representation of true TPS. The instantaneous TPS reproted by omen is much different than average TPS for the duration of a fight. please do not call any number you see on omen "your TPS," it simply isn't accurate.

If you dont go by what you average during a three hour raid in BT then what are we to go on at that point. I am not trying to be rude but if there is a better way of seeing your average tps other than watching omen or ktm for the duration of the raid I would like to know for future references.

nares
04-19-2008, 10:02 AM
best way is to use WWS and a TPS script like Gworn posted on top of the page. You can also find links there.