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Mudslinger
02-11-2008, 05:34 AM
Hey all,

I am curious what the order of 'levels' are in which the heroics go. For example, I know Old Hillsbrad is a heck of a lot harder then Slave Pens, but where on the scale is it? Is there a master list for all the Heroic's and what is easiest to hardest?

Thanks!

Shortypop
02-11-2008, 06:00 AM
I don't know of any master-list (depends a lot on group, gear etc etc), but here's a personal list written off the top of my head - in a general order and with some comments about cc-needed when undergeared.

### Easiest group

slave pens^ - as soon as you have the hp to survive the double pulls, this is easy and fast badges. A couple of large pulls where cc is useful until you out gear it.

mechanar^ - used to be the favourite badges grinding spot, now gives fewer badges but still sun eater and the epic dps legs. Warlock and one cc helpful here.

Ramparts^ - I farmed this place for my HH rep, no hard hitters in the trash and only the dragon gets a bit exciting at times.

underbog - I don't enjoy this place (personal dislike), but apart from one double hard hitting pull it's pretty easy going.

blood furnace - second boss can be a real pain, and a lock helps on the pulls right at the end - those demons hit HARD.

##### Middle

steamvaults - a couple of cc'ers (mage, hunters) make the trash easy, only two single bog lord pulls who hit hard. Warlock makes the first boss easier, end boss is a dps test.

Botanica - first boss is the hardest (imo) after that it's very similar to normal.

Arcatraz - Nice heroic if you're short on cc, very few multi-pulls. First boss can be a pain, but can be skipped if needed.

Mana-tombs - I generally wear green shadow res gear for the first boss (personal preference), cc'ers and interupts helpful for the healers and casters.

### Hardest

Shattered Halls** - Was much easier than I was anticipating, but probably cos I'd gotten myself stressed about multimob tanking. Tank and healer need good gear.

Shadow Labs** - Was also easier than I imagined, if you can stop your dps killing each other while mc'ed for the first boss :) A cc or two can help as some of the groups are pretty big

Black Morass** - Once you outgear this place, it's the easiest and fastest way to collect badges - I was pleasantly surprised.

Note:
^ - These were the heroics I ran soon after reaching 70 and before Kara (before 2.3 badges gear) etc.
** - Only recently run these (full kara gear, some early 25 man gear and 2.3 badges gear)
Omitted Sethekk, Crypts and Durnholde as I have very limited experience in them.

Roana
02-11-2008, 06:13 AM
There isn't, really. There is some "conventional wisdom" about which heroics are easy and which are hard, but I've found this frequently to be more convention than wisdom.

I believe that Slave Pens and Mechanar have a reputation as easy heroics not so much because they are easy (Nethermancer Sepethrea is in fact one of the harder heroic bosses!), but because they require relatively little trash-clearing compared, to, say, heroic Botanica.

Sometimes a heroic boss/trash pull is also considered hard because people don't know the proper strategy: Wrath-Scryer Soccothrates in heroic Arcatraz can be ridiculously hard if you don't know how to handle him, and a pushover if you know the right strategy: Whenever he pauses to charge somebody, he will not charge that person -- he will charge the spot where you stood when he paused, so by moving accordingly, you can avoid any and all damage from charges and fire trails.

About places that I wouldn't start out in, and why:

The CoT heroics do have a deserved reputation for being hard (or at least annoying) heroics. Working around the lookouts in Durnholde is borderline ridiculous, and was even worse when a pull could involve two Wardens -- you pretty much wanted two mages because it was so utterly painful otherwise. Combined with the fact that the first boss not only hits like a truck, but has a fear that drops aggro (it can be guessed, but guessing it right can be luck), few people do it. The problem is not that it is challenging -- it doesn't challenge much but your patience and ability to roll the dice.

In Black Morass, the showstopper tends to be Temporus. I honestly don't think I'd attempt him with a group that doesn't have an ability to purge his Hasten self-buff (Shield Slam does work here and is useful, but that's not an option for druids and paladins) and/or outgears the instance. His damage with Hasten up (double attack speed, yay) is borderline ridiculous if you're in blues.

Shadow Labyrinth is something that you can do in decent gear, but you really want heavy CC for this. The cabal ritualists come in packs of four on heroic mode, and it is possible to have four of them that gouge -- good luck keeping aggro. If they don't gouge, they do pretty nasty spell damage. Fel Overseers fear more frequently than on normal mode (or did at least last time I did it), so you need either a tremor totem, an off-tank, or a healer who is really good at keeping squishies alive for a bit. Or deal with the occasional rez. Cabal Shadow Priests do (or at least used to do) pretty ridiculous damage on heroics, 1.5k DPS Mind Flays. And there could be two in a pull. And you have Deathsworn that can knock you down (= no dodge, parry, or threat generation while that happens).

Steam Vaults, if you're in blues, is something that can either be pretty easy with the right CC or a nightmare otherwise. Melee mobs hit hard, the Sirens do Lightning Bolts for up to 3k damage (pre-mitigation) in addition to their fears, and the first boss does two Lightning clouds in addition to the AEs from her elementals. Banish is really, really recommended for her if you (or more precisely, your healer) doesn't sport a good chunk of epics or is the second coming of Florence Nightingale.

Roana
02-11-2008, 06:17 AM
IBotanica - first boss is the hardest (imo) after that it's very similar to normal.

Not sure I can agree here. The first boss is not much harder than on normal mode. Heck, she can even be disarmed. Just make sure that the stacking debuff on the tank gets dispelled before she can convert it into bonus damage.

The hardest part in heroic Botanica is Thorngrin in my experience. More frequent sacrifices (each being a complete aggro reset, as on normal mode) and heavier damage make him easily the most stressful fight to tank in the instance.

Mudslinger
02-11-2008, 06:46 AM
Thanks for the thoughts. I am not totally geared by any means, but have a few good quality items on me which should make tanking heroics easier for me. I havent done alot of them, but have tried (And been frusterated by) H.Durn & Steamvaults. Thus, them being 'harder' heroics, that could explain alot.

I will likely be working on the 'easy' list to try and grab some quick badges and get some better gear =]

Thanks again!

Tristessa
02-11-2008, 05:25 PM
We just did heroic SL last night just because we were bored (me the warrior tank in Kara+badge gear, holy priest, hunter, warlock, rogue). It was challenging but not as hard as I thought. Main wipes were on Murmur just getting used to the Heroic version.


Shadow Labyrinth is something that you can do in decent gear, but you really want heavy CC for this. The cabal ritualists come in packs of four on heroic mode, and it is possible to have four of them that gouge -- good luck keeping aggro. If they don't gouge, they do pretty nasty spell damage.
That they do. They go down fairly quick, but they dispel CC and have a fairly long range as well--that's the main problem with them.


Fel Overseers fear more frequently than on normal mode (or did at least last time I did it), so you need either a tremor totem, an off-tank, or a healer who is really good at keeping squishies alive for a bit. Or deal with the occasional rez.
I can confirm that they behave just like their normal brethren--except that they hit harder. A warrior tank can stance-dance through this; just get ready to switch 'Rage on at approximately 15-20 seconds from your own first hit on him. I don't think Spell Reflect works at all.

AlmtyBob
02-11-2008, 06:05 PM
Even more so than normal instances, next to skill and gear, the most important thing for a heroic in my opinion is composition. Tank + Healer (Priest/Pally preferred for me) + Mage + Lock + Mage/Hunter/Lock/Elem-Shammy = Win. With a composition like this there's always a soulwell, soul stone, table, 2-3 CC's, and Banish (very useful in BF/SV/Mech). There's also the large bonus of not having any melee DPS. No rogues to stunlock away your rage, more threat freedom (110% agg for melee, 130% outside of melee), the ability to freely position mobs without worrying about your dps losing attacks, and lastly being able to grab any off spec plate drops when there aren't any DPS warriors in the group. 8)

If you're starting Heroic SP you can have any decent hunter, mage, or shaman kite one of the defenders. Mech definitely has the easiest trash if you bring a warlock with you. Just be sure to interrupt the Patroller's Charged Fist if you're undergeared.

One small tip. Avoid Crypts like the plague. That place is hell on earth for a warrior tank with a ghost spawning with every single humanoid mob pulled. On top of that add the possesors that can't be interrupted or cc'd MC'ing the tank, that damn beholder boss and his cast time debuffs and flares, and worst of all, those fricking invisible sparks that are almost guaranteed to send your or a fellow party member flying into a chasm.

One more small tip. Even if you're PuG'ing, install the personal 8-person vent server and make a macro to list your vent info. It's free and even in a 5 man it can make a huge difference.

Tristessa
02-11-2008, 09:01 PM
I agree; I'd rather wipe repeatedly in SH/SL/SV than Crypts. D=

Leytur
02-12-2008, 04:01 AM
I liked the suggestion to choose the instance based on your composition as opposed to shooting for a "perfect" group composition.

Short on CC? Do x which has smaller pulls. Etc.

I don't know that I like running with so many squishies. It's pretty unforgiveable and for right now I'm still getting used to heroics.

Tonight I'm doing Seth Halls for a guildies drood quest. Me tank, fury warrior, the druid, holy priest and lock. Sounds like a good composition as 3 crunchies should lower my blood pressure quite a bit.

dlongest
02-12-2008, 07:20 AM
I totally agree with the list of "easier" heroics being Ramps, Mech, SP, and UB. Haven't tried heroic BF (I hate that dungeon for some reason).

I run with the same 5 all the time: warrior tank (me) + pally (heal) + mage/lock/hunter. The hunter is in epics, but they're all crafteds, PvP, or a couple badged. The mage has a couple PvP epics, rest blues. Lock is the same but has a FSW piece. The healer is actually somewhat severly undergeared at the moment with various +heal blues and some outdated ones as welll with no epics. This isn't to say we're super great or anything, but composition can be one of the biggest keys to heroics. The trash pulls are what makes or breaks you in heroics so you need to know what the dungeon has to offer and at least attempt to compose if you're not out-gearing it by a wide margin.

I agree with AlmtyBob in that I personally like that combination of personages in the majority of instances. No melee DPS is, for me, great, because I don't have to worry about someone stunlocking mobs, Charging mobs, or any of the other shenanigans you'll see from meleers. Does the fact that everyone is squishie worry me? Not excessively. Even plate and mail wearers can get lit up in heroics if you make a mistake. Our lock tends to die the most often for some reason, but he's a god sport about it. But part of that comes down to the DPS having to actuallly pay attention to things like threat, whether I'm stunned or not, the kill order, etc.

I also had great luck in H ramps with 2 mages + hunter (all those sheep = awesome) and in an H mech PUG with (somehow) 2 hunters as the only CC (elem sham was the 3rd). Although in the latter, those guys way outgeared me and knew what they were doing. And by that I mean they misdirected almost nonstop and watched their threat.

My $.02, FWIW.

Daniel

kolben
02-12-2008, 09:09 AM
Lots of good replies in this thread, so I'll just add my two cents.

*Dislike
I avoid heroic Crypts unless I have a healer that really wants that damn cape.
The effort vs. rewards in this one are kind of lop sided.

Heroic Old Hillsbrad is a pain until the second boss is down in my opinion. The patrols are on a 15-min respawn and summon in 4 adds. First boss is most easily beaten by having your group stand at the top of the stairs (the ones he walks down) and then jump off when he fears -> comes gun'in for em. Buys some time and seems to work. Again, effort vs. rewards.

These two give you a sense of accomplishment when you complete them and pass out the prismatic shards lol.

*Okay
Heroic Steam Vaults is great, just bring two CC if you can of any type. Take extra time to bring your pulls into safe areas so if CC is having trouble or a fear gets off you can recover. Cake otherwise. Kalithresh will test your burst damage

Slave pens has been good to us, and given us heartburn. I think I dont like it as well because of a phantom mob that kept raping us while clearing to a chest once. It didn't show up until we were dead lol. Okay so that's a bug and not dungeon difficulty. Overall an okay place. Bring CC

Arcatraz is actually fine in heroic I think except the first boss. His shadow damage is somewhat OP. I'd recommend skipping him, then clear the rest fo the instance which is about the same as non-heroic and then come back to him at the end.

Mana tombs is great except the first boss does heavy shadow damage, and a rough spot we always hit with the spellbinders and theurgists at the end. Other than that an easy instance

*Love
Shattered halls. This is my favorite instance anyway, but in heroic it's just better. Some very hard hitting mobs in here, take down brawlers and savages first and kill dogs before the handlers in the dog patrols. At least one sheep in here makes a world of difference. With two it's just fun.

Blood furnace. Great instance, bring a lock for the fel doods at the end. Oh and when old boy says "come closer and burn" move your ass!

Mechnar is fun on heroic, maybe more than normal for me anyway. Fight the first boss with the tank on the steps and mechanolord on the ground in front of you. He has a huge hitbox, so when you pull him just run halfway up, stop and face him. He wont follow you onto the steps. Skip all trash you dont need to kill, it saves a lot of time.

Sethekk Halls is good in heroic if you bring a mage and a priest for shackles. Any CC will do. If you can score a druid that can summon the epic flight form boss, that's a treat, very fun fight. Have everyone clump together around one pillar for the last boss, and just move front to back to avoid his nasty AE.

Ramparts is great and if you only have a limited time to do one where I would start. The second boss can be nasty with his spez, so watch it carefully and spread out. Once CC is enough in here.

kolben
02-12-2008, 09:28 AM
Oh, forgot to mention a great little mod for 5-mans called LittleWigs (http://files.wowace.com/LittleWigs/LittleWigs-r60704.zip).

Provides the same functionality as BigWigs does in raids, but for the 5-man bosses if you like that sort of thing with marks and timers etc.

Roana
02-12-2008, 12:56 PM
For what it's worth, I've never had a particular problem with Auchenai Crypts, heroic or regular. The general problem in a pick-up (where I'd avoid it, probably) is that people aren't sure how to deal with the spawned mobs because they aren't marked. If you have a set policy (say, possessors > sorcerers > clerics, let the tank pick up the rest) and people stick to it, things generally go smoothly and easily. Of course, the elites still hit like heroic mobs, but most pulls have only two of them and there are just two pulls with three elites (not counting the undead ones, which don't hit hard).The obvious downside is that you only get two badges (but the first boss drops the Fanblade Pauldrons also).

Cloak
07-06-2008, 08:59 AM
As someone who's just started tanking Heroics and OT'ing Karazhan, a discussion or list for this is extremely helpful.

Sure, there's always some variables making one Heroic instance run harder than another, but let's make some basic assumptions:

*You have at least 1 crowd control class
*You're running with guildies or friends (people you're more familiar with)
*You're running with some combination of 70 blues and T4-ish gear
*Your party members are similarly geared to you

Next, what makes a Heroic "harder" than another? Let's use these basic assumptions:

*Several large (4-5+ mobs), multi-mob pulls
*Several large cc-immune pulls (or generally less easily cc-able mob types)
*Several large and/or hard-hitting mob pulls
*One or more hard-hitting or high body count-style Bosses (i.e. Murmur, 2nd dragon boss in Black Morass, etc.)
*High Instance Length (not necessarily "difficulty," but many people avoid the generally ~2+ hour heroics)

So those are the assumptions I make at both party and instance make-up levels to more objectively gage Heroic instance difficulty.

Ultimately, what I'm learning is that the best way to learn which instance *you* find more difficult or easier is to do the Daily Heroic. It's always the most bang for your buck - bonus badges, money, and you gain the experience of a new Heroic every day, including a few you may have avoided due to past experiences for a variety of reasons. (My orc warrior tank is my tanking alt, but there's some very clear bad memories of some Heroics from my long-time main - i.e. like the end Felguards in BF, for example, early on when Heroics were first being done... brutal!)

As an example, having tanked Heroic BF for the first time ever yesterday, I found the bosses to be especially easy (mainly because they did NOT hit hard), and most of the pulls as well, even the larger ones (which are mostly humanoid, and therefore most easily cc-able by the most classes). But in general, there was only a handful of really large, unwieldly or hard-hitting pulls. Right before boss #2, sure, but those are basically part of the boss fight. Having "the best cc for BF" in a warlock, of course, was key for Heroic BF, most especially for those hard-hitting end Felguards.

Once again, I believe this is a very worthwhile discussion for 70 blues/T4-geared tanks early in their Heroics careers, so I bookmarked this, signed up (though I've lurked on this great site for many months) and ressurrected the thread!

Thanks. :)

uglybbtoo
07-06-2008, 09:44 PM
After I wiped the tears from my eye's H-BF amongst the easiest ROFL.

It's like lambs to the slaughter all these bright eyed newbie heroic tanks with there 12K HP slaughtered before they even get up the stairs.

For the record H-BF is the heroic with probably the simplest pulls however it has the most mobs that stun and hit the hardest.

One of us is wrong .. Prove me wrong get up the stairs in you 11K armor and 12KHP :)

dawnrose
07-07-2008, 06:18 AM
After I wiped the tears from my eye's H-BF amongst the easiest ROFL.

It's like lambs to the slaughter all these bright eyed newbie heroic tanks with there 12K HP slaughtered before they even get up the stairs.

For the record H-BF is the heroic with probably the simplest pulls however it has the most mobs that stun and hit the hardest.

One of us is wrong .. Prove me wrong get up the stairs in you 11K armor and 12KHP :)

That's why you bring a warlock AND a rogue around.
A warlock to detect the rogues, banish the felguards and fear mobs in 2nd boss fight. You bring the rogue along to stun said stunning mobs. You'll need an uber healer to keep you alive on the felguard mobs though. Even when single pulled, they hit quite hard.

Raize
07-07-2008, 03:46 PM
Rogues don't really hit that hard. It's usually the warrior types and fel guards that do all the damage (We're talking about 3-5k a hit). That said, Heroic BF is easy in concept but does require either really good gear or well-chosen CC.

Heroics are quite different now to what they used to be i.e they have been nerfed quite a lot. I would say that any heroic is probably viable for a tank in pre-Kara gear, with the exception of the instances where mobs put out a lot more spell damage.

If you have what you think you require, look more at the other people in your party. In most cases, your success in a heroic will be decided by your DPS and healer. There are still a lot of heroic bosses that are DPS checks while other bosses are coordination checks. (Try spending over an hour on Murmur with people who can't avoid a Sonic Boom).

I think if you were to list Heroic's based on the tanking difficulty and how easy or difficult heroics are to get through with a PUG, they would be extremely different.

As far as difficulty based-on tanking imo goes:

Hellfire: Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Shattered Halls
Coilfang: Slave Penns, Underbog, Steamvaults
Auchindoun: Mana Tombs, Sethekk Halls, Auch Crypts, Shadow Labs
Netherstorm: Mechanar, Botanica, Arcatraz
COT: Black Morass, Durnholde

Magister's Terrace is probably unique in that it requires a mixture of good tanking AND group coordination to succeed.

annerajb
07-07-2008, 05:18 PM
i agree with durn being hard i did it as my first heroic with crap gear and after 30 wipes i got the perfect strategy with my group. pull mobs mage run's and frost nova poly one hunter traps another one and i stay away from melee mobs that way i dont get hit by 3 guys at the same ttime and died it did WONDERS on the last boss. it looked as i was doing deadmines once we got it cordinated. + the warlock chain feared.

uglybbtoo
07-07-2008, 10:17 PM
That's why you bring a warlock AND a rogue around.
A warlock to detect the rogues, banish the felguards and fear mobs in 2nd boss fight. You bring the rogue along to stun said stunning mobs. You'll need an uber healer to keep you alive on the felguard mobs though. Even when single pulled, they hit quite hard.

Even tanking one he will stun you ... on 11K armour the hits are around 5K .. you gonna need a very good healer.

I am not saying it's impossible just very very hard. You need very specific classes and an excellent healer not easy to PUG. Now is that the sort of run you want to do as a so called easy starter instance.

hvidgaard
07-17-2008, 09:40 AM
I know it's an dated thread, but you don't _need_ an uber healer to heal you trough the Felguards - you could do just fine with a druid/pally/shaman helping the healer until the first is down - that's my experience at least.

Pasucon
07-17-2008, 03:21 PM
Anybody tried using Free Action Potion on the stun-heavy pulls in in BF?

uglybbtoo
07-20-2008, 10:15 PM
Yes free action pots work to stop stuns same as they do in Hijal with adom's.. The pot works as described there are no mob level restrictions on it but then you have a 2min CD.