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View Full Version : Being the Tank officer and news of 2.4...



Minirage
02-10-2008, 04:25 AM
prepare for epic qq.

I'm the tank officer of a guild who has VashJ killed Vash multiple times and is just starting on KT. When a guild member shouted over guild chat the new 'exciting' news it felt a sudden shock followed by a huge amount of anger.

Our little casual guild started raiding late, we did beat the first attunement nurf, but this one caught me by surprise. You see, the first attunement nurf did not have a great impact - we were just a few kara squads with the ability to kill gruuls and we coop Mag with another guild.

Since our first attempt on Hydros till last night when I heard this news, it has not really been that much fun - it has more or less been a full time job. I am a hardcore player in a casual guild, perhaps I should have parted tides long ago, but I like most of its members and believe in them.

Attrition has been very bad. An analogy would be comparing our attrition rate to that of Easy Company (Band of Brothers). I've had to attend over 93% of our raids since we started - you see, our server has a complete lack of players that have the ability to tank or even want to tank for that matter.

Gearing up ferals, prot paladins, prot warriors, fury warriors who can OT when needed was pretty much a nonstop program. A couple months ago, about the time we first started Vash, I finally found a prot warrior who I knew could let me rotate out and take it easy - do something in RL, watch football, whatever. But even that warriors' tenure was short - he had to stop playing.

Due to this attrition I have had to recruit enough tanks for any encounter plus 50%. This is because I can not rely on anybody but myself to show up to any given raid. Doing so has brought about much scorn from not only the tanks that have been in the guild for some time, but the other classes as well. Every raid I would grit my teeth and wait for the incoming bombardment of hostile tells;

-"why did you just recruit a new feral, I wont go on a rotation system..."
-"why is that lesser geared tank coming, don't you care about progression?"
-"why is he coming to this boss, i've been waiting for loot off this boss for months now..."
-"fine...if im on rotation then im just going to log

[ok pause...we had to make a thing called sosdkp just to get our raiders to show up when they were being rotated out for the sake of redundancy. No one understands that if someone's power goes out, or whatever reason, we have to cancel the raids. No one understands that the next tank that quits will park our raid indefinatly. No one gets it, no one is patient, just damnable misery. So we created this absurd amendment to our DKP system, shelling out the same amount of DKP as a raider who was actually inside the raid the whole night, just for being online and available as needed..sigh. /pause]

-"Is there a reason you are not taking me tonight, have I done something wrong?"
-"Why can't I come to the raids, I'm just as good as him"
-and a seemingly infinite amount of more misery directed at me.

It has gotten so bad that I think twice about even logging in sometimes. I play on an unguilded alt. Or I just...idk rather stare at the wall or watch dust collect.

Making tough decisions on who is coming with us to Hyjal and who is not. Benching the rest. Gearing those that I think will stay and that can perform, only to see them quit or jump ship to another guild. Having people dislike me because I won't let them come.

The misery of finally almost getting enough tanks together, all this hard work, all this BS, just to finally hear that it was basically all for not. Yes, the attunements to BT and Hyjal are lifted, great!

All this misery man. And now I sit here pondering all night, do I really want to do this all over again? Am I a sadist?

Disliking this change is more than a form of elitism. More than what people say, "oh you just want to have better gear than casuals". I genuinely worked my butt off, and took a lot of licks. Again, did I enjoy this? - sometimes, but more often than not, no...not one bit. Relearning FLK for the 10th time due to new healers or tanks is NOT fun. But we struggled, and are almost there, and we are doing well on Kael.

So that's it. Just wondering how other officers, that are around our stage of progression, are handling this news.

Rak
02-10-2008, 05:16 AM
We have our second night of working on Vashj scheduled for tonight. Our core players have decided not to step into Hyjal or BT until we kill Vashj and Kael. It makes no sense to skip them considering Kael'Thas is one of the best encounters in the game.

All of us officers expect this to cause guild drama with the people that don't want to work hard for it. People will probably end up quitting to join a guild that will jump into BT and get nowhere. We don't have enough raiders to afford the losses either.

But we, the officers and core players, are not going to sacrifice our gaming experience to cater to a group of people that just want better loot and less work. We are going to kill Kael'Thas and we are going to cheer on vent when it happens. The people that decide to jump ship and be lazy because of it can play the game with no satisfaction at all for all I care.

The good part is that after we finally kill Kael, not only will we get three tier 5 chests per week, some snazzy titles, and excellent rings... but we also won't have to go through the annoying process of attuning future recruits.

Taelas
02-10-2008, 05:24 AM
2.4 won't hit live servers for a while yet. I expect at least a month if not two of testing.

Ceravantes
02-10-2008, 07:34 AM
My guild has bee in hyjal and bt for months, and we still get solid upgrades from Kael and Vashj, with being able to kill them without clearing the other bosses it wouldn't make sense to kill them if you haven't been farmiog illidan for months (we will have our first illidan kill in the next week or two, before 2.4 guaranteed)

Mini, if you are no longer enjoying it, and would rather play an unguilded alt, it is time to move on. I left a similar situation recently and moved to a guild that was a little more progressed (my guild was 6/6 3/4, current guild was 3/5 mh 4/9 bt) I could not be happier with my decision, it was like a giant boulder was lifted off my shoulders and I can actually enjoy raiding again.

Nariju
02-12-2008, 01:30 AM
How am i handling it? I'm rampaging. ;)

We're 5/6, 3/4 atm, but i expect Vashj to surrender today. And i'm SO hoping we'll get Kael before the Patch. Our Guild Lead and most class leaders (well, seems all but me) are like "First bosses MH/BT are supposed to be free loot, so why should we stick with the hardest fight there is and let him keep us from progressing further if it's no longer necessary?"

And i can perfectly understand them. We're in no way a hardcore raiding guild but pressure on players has definitly gone up recently. You don't want to spend months on a single boss encounter. So after attunement is no longer an issue motivation will sure go down, which makes it even harder to face kael. And with new instances to explore, you definitely don't want to stay behind. Loot is what drives most people and you can't hold them just because you find the fight itself more interesting. (and it's not even 'Kael-Loot' vs. 'Rage-loot', its the TeeSix!!amagawd!!! approach i hate)

And there's my personal issue with ssc/tk. Although i'm class officer, i'm not an active raid member since my internet connection for whatever reason doesn't allow for 25mans. I MTed up to Gruul, but then i moved and "lost my job". I did ssc pre the day they killed this attunement and i still have to kill mag to see tk in good conscience. So with 2.4 i'll probably never see them at all, and i'm pissed. maybe i just resign and explore that old rl-game until wotlk.

Finelle
02-12-2008, 05:07 AM
Minirage, if you're having to recruit extra tanks, wouldn't 2.4 be a godsend? I mean, if your server has no tanks, imagine what would happen after you stepped in BT/Hyjal and a tank quits? You'd either have to hope that your app has completed attunement, or end up sacrificing a whole two raids at least to attune the new tank.

Narshe
02-12-2008, 06:20 AM
Btw, some people forgets that these are test realm patch notes. Imagine what will happen if Blizzard revert the changes about free ep....attunements.

byechee
02-12-2008, 02:32 PM
Blizzard has always wanted their content to be accessible by a wider range of players, and so lifting the attunements was an easy and logical choice from their standpoint. BT/Hyjal will no longer be the "end-game" when 2.4 comes out so there's no real reason to lock people out of it.

Clifford
02-15-2008, 05:38 AM
I feel your pain. I am the raid leader and tank officer and a lot of the 2.4 patch notes felt like a kick in the nuts. We are a casual raiding guild (but professional) and I made the decision in December to push us into BT. We had already grown the guild to a point where Kara and Gruul were non-issues and even managed to killed VR once or twice. My goal was to get into BT before the middle of the year as that seemed a likely date for the expansion.

So in January we started SSC. By the end of January we had completed (5/6) SSC and (2/4) TK. We have had two hours on Lady V that were chaotic but the fights seems doable. The 2.4 patch notes hit me after this first attempt. I like the idea of not having to clear all the bosses before encountering Lady V, which is great for us as currently we need one evening to kill the first 5 bosses in SSC. However, I don't like the thought of removing attunements to BT. Why? Simply because I want to feel justified in being there. I want to walk into the temple with my head held high. That is my goal! but the decision isn't mine alone as I have a guild to keep happy.

So I will continue to push SSC and my hope is that we can kill Lady V and Kael'thas before 2.4 hits. That is my dream! but the timeframe is unlikely.

Ciderhelm
02-15-2008, 02:26 PM
Right now is an ideal time to weed out the players who don't belong and find the players who do.

This isn't a new event in WoW history. When Naxxramas was announced, all of the same issues came up for guilds in AQ40. Why keep on going if you can just get easy T3 loot?

If you want to use it to your advantage, find the players who'll show up on your raid nights and keep them. They're the ones who deserve to be there. Even if you don't kill Vashj and Kael (which I suspect you guys will), you can go back and kill them a bit later.

Clifford
02-27-2008, 01:27 PM
Right now is an ideal time to weed out the players who don't belong and find the players who do.
Good advice - I will start taking more notice who joins and who doesn't (I track signups and attendance).

TheGrowler
03-19-2008, 07:25 PM
For us the patch is a race. I'm the GM/MT/RL for a horde guild that stalled a bit just after BC but picked up steam again around the end of last year and we currently have vashj down (about a month ago) and Kael into Phase 4, but not quite cleanly yet. For us it's a race against the patch to down Kael. He will fall, but we're really struggling with the wide array of options opening up to us with 2.4.. Kael will be the focus until he falls, but then what? Hyjal/BT seems obvious, but with 3 raid nights at ~3.5 hours per night, we have to be smart about where we spend our time. I'm thinking right after Kael falls we'll do 1 night a week is dedicated to full ssc or tk (alternate weeks) and the other two nights are hyjal/BT. If we do 1 night farm / 2 nights progression, the next question is: do we go for the vashj/kael dual kill night or do we full clear ssc or tk? We haven't been sharding too much loot in either place, and the extra badges have me leaning for full clears of one or the other on alternating weeks.

I'd be curious to know if anyone else in our shoes has similar or different plans post-patch..

Ceravantes
03-20-2008, 11:35 AM
For us the patch is a race. I'm the GM/MT/RL for a horde guild that stalled a bit just after BC but picked up steam again around the end of last year and we currently have vashj down (about a month ago) and Kael into Phase 4, but not quite cleanly yet. For us it's a race against the patch to down Kael. He will fall, but we're really struggling with the wide array of options opening up to us with 2.4.. Kael will be the focus until he falls, but then what? Hyjal/BT seems obvious, but with 3 raid nights at ~3.5 hours per night, we have to be smart about where we spend our time. I'm thinking right after Kael falls we'll do 1 night a week is dedicated to full ssc or tk (alternate weeks) and the other two nights are hyjal/BT. If we do 1 night farm / 2 nights progression, the next question is: do we go for the vashj/kael dual kill night or do we full clear ssc or tk? We haven't been sharding too much loot in either place, and the extra badges have me leaning for full clears of one or the other on alternating weeks.

I'd be curious to know if anyone else in our shoes has similar or different plans post-patch..

Realistically, spending 1 night out of 3 for full ssc/tk clears is not worth it, and witht he amount of tiem you have spent there already the upgrades from bosses other than Vashj/Kael are irrelevant. If you really want, do vashj/Kael only, then shoot on into Hyjal, even a guild new to hyjal, and even if you struggle on Kael a bit, should be able to clear atleast alliance side in addition to vvashj/kael in 2-3 hours.

Jericho
03-21-2008, 10:06 AM
People seem to think that just because Vashj/Kael will have their gate's unlocked that it will be free reign to walk into the instance and kill them in short order. The reality is far from that.

Any RL in their right mind is probably going to skip Hydross and kill Lurker. Even the most hardcore of BT guilds can have a so/so night vs Vashj and quite frankly, there is zero reason not to spend the extra 8 minutes or so on Lurker after you just cleared ALL of its trash spawns.

In terms of Kael, you are still going to have to clear a great deal of trash. I do not know how fast my guild could go through this trash at this stage in our game, but back when we were killing Kael, it took us about 22 minutes from the time we started the trash til we saw Kael. This was before they removed the 1 pull, but even still. If you cut that time down to maybe 15 minutes, add that to Alar trash and another 3-4 pulls of either Solarian or VR trash just to get to the ramp to Kael's room... You are still looking at well over an hour if you managed to pull off the one shot.

For a 3 day 3.5 hour a week guild ... Personally, I'd choose to spend my time in Hyjal until I got 1-4 down and BT until I got atleast 1-3 down. Hyjal really is not that hard once you get the trash down. Rage can be tanked by a warrior in pure kara gear and win. He hits like a pansy. Anetheron is a bit more difficult, but once your healers and your Infernal tank get the hang out of it, its free loot. Horde camp ramps up and you prolly dont want to touch it until you can get your casters the HoD SR cloaks made, so head to Najentus/Supremus/Akama and get some more good loot. Going back to Kael/Vash is a nice thought, but honestly, theyare both a great deal more painful fights than any of te first 5 bosses in BT/Hyjal.

Rhelahan
03-30-2008, 08:09 PM
OP: I am in a similar situation, and can empathize.

My guild has both casual members and raiders. The lines are completely blurred under a single rank: Member. I'm having trouble with attendance, and people are complaining about not killing Vashj. Yet, we can never get a Vashj group on the days we schedule to attempt the encounter. Our DKP site shows us a grand total of 5 Vashj attempts, which all began in February, except the single one we did in March. We've been in SSC since November, and still are unable to clear to Vashj in a single night.

Now that 2.4 has come out, some people are threatening to leave the guild if they don't see BT/MH because they're tired of SSC/TK. Going over some of our member's gear, some don't even meet the gear or stat requirements for Rage or Naj'entus.

At first, my reaction to the ultimatum was this: If you don't want to be here, I'll find people that do. And this is still my sentiment, except that I've turned it into challenge for the guild. If they can get us to Vashj in a single night, they can taste MH. If they're dedicated enough to put forth the focus and effort on a old and boring instance to have a shot at progression, they deserve it.

However, a bigger problem looms: We will never be able to build a successful raid group and accomplish anything past SSC unless there is a solid infrastructure built around the aspect of raiding.

Here are some of changes I've been pushing with my guild:
- Establishing a Raider rank
- Establishing strict behavioral and attendance requirements (gear can be worked on much easier than teaching someone how to play their class or making them show up)
- Establishing an official "core" raid group
- Recruiting for the class/specs we need to complete the raid group
- Restructuring the DKP model (using EPGP) because zero-sum is inconsistent and doesn't really suit our style well
-Establish loot rules (Raiders>Members>Trials)

As a Main Tank and Raid Leader, I can tell you that your role in this guild is probably a great one and that your departure will likely be devastating to your guild.

Before putting your guild through this, at least try and step up and make some big changes, even if it's a little at a time. At least then, if things don't work out, you can leave with a clear conscience and say you honestly tried to help the situation as best as you could.

Meatballs
04-10-2008, 04:35 AM
As of 2.4 we had killed Vashj, and Kael to phase4, so similar position. We relatively new and only started SSC/TK in Jan/Feb so dont have a lot of T5 loot. We only raid 3 nights a week, 20.00-00.00.

We have now cleared up to Archimonde, and had a night of wipes (69%), and downed Najentus in BT. Our 3rd reset this week and we plan to clear up to Archimonde again, and hopefully get 2,3 bosses down in BT.

Dont worry about gear too much, a lot of stuff from SSC/TK was being disenchanted anyway due to badge loot/za gear.

We didn't need any shadow resist for 4th Hyjal boss. Key to Hyjal is trash, and keeping your NPCs alive if you are undergeared and need the DPS!

As for circumstances in guild, try your best to correct it, but if its not working, and guild members dont share your philosophy, move on to a guild that does, take the stress off yourself and settle being a damn good maintank with some progresss. I spent months in a kara guild and just had to move on for my own sanity, they are now up to Gruul, whereas the new start guild are up to Archimonde...

TheGrowler
05-06-2008, 10:28 AM
Now that 2.4 has been live for a bit, I thought I'd revisit this thread and provide an update.

Leading right up to the patch, we were on the very edge of downing Kael. With time running out, our final attempts were into P4/P5 where we were ironing out the last lessons from those phases. We should have killed him, and failed.

Our first week post-patch was incredible. We killed 4/5 Hyjal and Naj + Supremus in BT!! Another week or two followed and we dropped akama and started in on Teron Gorefiend. We then took the group back to Kael and had high hopes for an easy kill after picking up so many upgrades and being so close prior to patch. We were rudely awakened to the fact that this was a fight of many details and we spent two nights of attempts re-learning those lessons before we finally killed Kael. It was a kill that represented our legitimacy to ourselves more than anything.. we earned being able to walk into Hyjal and BT, and that meant something to a great number of our raiders. We haven't gone back to ssc or tk since, although we do plan to catch up some alts and new memebers with maybe once a month runs through tk or ssc as needed.

So, the next race is through illidan and into sunwell before WotLK...

Clifford
05-07-2008, 01:58 AM
Sounds very similar to us - we managed to kill Kael'thas the Sunday after 2.4 was released with the Friday spent killing the first couple of bosses in MH.

Killing Kael'thas legitimised our progress in MH/BT. We have been back to SSC/TK a few times for farming raids and to enable more people to get their MH rings.

Finelle
05-07-2008, 04:45 AM
The MH rep rings are possibly best in slot for some roles/classes too, I believe?