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Lunestone
02-06-2008, 09:51 AM
So... I always swore I wouldn't become condescending... yet I kinda feel i'm on the verge of becoming that way. Is it so bad that you get used to playing with epic'd out players and are impatient if you have to play with someone even in all blues? Granted there are some skilled players but still... I get frustrated now that the cap to do heroics has been lowered, you have all these ppl just hitting 70 and excited to run heroics that have never been in some instances. Not to mention I worked my ass off to get revered with all the factions and ya know what? I bitched about it then but even when i was revered i wasn't ready for some heroics.

I get this old guildie... from my old nub guild wanting to do slabs... saying he could also use a heroic slabs run. I ask, "what cc you got?". He says, "What's cc?". Yeah I quickly got out of that run. He kept asking me questions... he's like how bout this heroic or that. I tried to work around it but eventually I said, "You don't know what cc means... that's kinda ridiculous." And he's like, "Well i don't know that lingo, blah blah blah." Sigh.... /cry. I hurt for some people knowing that at one point that was me.

Now how that relates to my guild... my guild is in a weird spot, with all our best players on we one shot gruul's and have cleared SSC trash to lurker easily after a Gruul's run. The next week some other dps is filling in some last slots and one night last week we couldn't get Gruul. We have some people that have gotten in that have hit 70 in the last few weeks. This one particular healer has been working to get better gear and she has like 1300 bonus healing... some would say okay, let her heal kara on farm. Last night, she did 11% of the healing. I've been told by other healers that they watch her, on some fights they're halfway thru mana and she's full. Mind you these other healers have like 18-1900 bonus healing. It pisses me off that particularly this girl seems to whine a lot... yeah she's constantly trying to get stuff done but WTF is she doing during those fights that she's getting 11% of the healing?? And as a tank, I don't want her healing me. Our Gm doesn't want her healing him.

So... people talk about her instead of talking to her about it. But they're like, ya know we aren't some hardcore raiding guild... the GM made this guild so it wouldn't be like his old guild where ppl constantly got yelled at, etc. And yeah I don't want that... but I would like people to be honest too. My friend that got me in this guild... he's like, we can't totally forget kara, we don't have 25 consistent players for raids. But you're having officers tired of kara... that don't feel like gearing certain ppl. Don't feel some deserve it or are going to be skilled anyway with epic gear. I would say only a few spots need to be filled... and it just needs to be organized better who is going to fill them and only those people go on our best kara runs. The rest can get their own together or something.... I dunno.

Can anyone relate to all this?

Ciderhelm
02-06-2008, 09:57 AM
This is a good post. I may move it to the Guild Relations forums a little later this evening, though, since it falls solidly into those subjects. :)

Horacio
02-06-2008, 09:59 AM
This is very, very common and the transition into 25 mans has developed like this for many people. Excepting the few who are in hardcore cutting edge guilds way passed this, everyone knows these players. I am in the midst of a reclimation project at the moment. I have a paladin with 1800+heal and she gets 6-7% of the healing for a 25 man raid. In contrast, I usually lead the meter on my druid at around 14-16% of the total healing with 7 healers. Its disgusting but at least we have finally confronted the problem and warned her.

You are constantly evolving as a player and the move from Kara to 25 man raiding forces you to ramp it up or fall behind. Many of us get caught up in situations playing with people who fall on both sides and it forces everyone to make alot of tough decisions.

Ceravantes
02-06-2008, 10:02 AM
It is a bad spot to be in, but the bottom line is, if you want to progress as a family/casual guild, people will be left behind and you can not accomodate everyone.

Generally with a family/casual type guild like this you need a total incentive based loot system, that is non discriminating against anything. Doing this will usually stimulate growth in more casual players and a desire to attend more in your better players.

If you are using a loot council, suicide kings and in some cases a zero sum system you are most likely not providing enough incentive to raid, using a per boss kill/on time open end bid system generally works well in this type of guild. It let's a player place his own value on his upgrades,a s well as rewarding people for being online to raid, wether they are actually in the raid or sitting on the sideline for the night.

The last thing would be in regards to your guild leader to not "yell" at people, in my experience a good 'yelliong' is very productive when done in moderation, and when well deserved, however the guild will need an outlet to vent if they think the scolding was unfair, the best way to go about this is to have a raid leader who, as far as the members are concerned has total control of raids. Said raid leader can do all the necesary scolding, and the memebrs still have their nice friendly guild leader/officers to speak with if they have a problem with it, or anything in general.

Lunestone
02-06-2008, 10:13 AM
This is a good post. I may move it to the Guild Relations forums a little later this evening, though, since it falls solidly into those subjects. :)

Yeah, I probalby should've put there to begin with ;)

Lunestone
02-06-2008, 10:17 AM
It is a bad spot to be in, but the bottom line is, if you want to progress as a family/casual guild, people will be left behind and you can not accomodate everyone.

Generally with a family/casual type guild like this you need a total incentive based loot system, that is non discriminating against anything. Doing this will usually stimulate growth in more casual players and a desire to attend more in your better players.

If you are using a loot council, suicide kings and in some cases a zero sum system you are most likely not providing enough incentive to raid, using a per boss kill/on time open end bid system generally works well in this type of guild. It let's a player place his own value on his upgrades,a s well as rewarding people for being online to raid, wether they are actually in the raid or sitting on the sideline for the night.

The last thing would be in regards to your guild leader to not "yell" at people, in my experience a good 'yelliong' is very productive when done in moderation, and when well deserved, however the guild will need an outlet to vent if they think the scolding was unfair, the best way to go about this is to have a raid leader who, as far as the members are concerned has total control of raids. Said raid leader can do all the necesary scolding, and the memebrs still have their nice friendly guild leader/officers to speak with if they have a problem with it, or anything in general.




Very, very helpful... I will copy/paste this to my GM :)

Leytur
02-06-2008, 10:26 AM
Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.

Bullwrinkle
02-06-2008, 10:28 AM
I am sure at some point everyone can relate to this, its just that at some point your margins for dead weight become smaller and smaller. The 40 man days are dead, filler starts to hurt more and more the tighter the encounters become.

Anaea
02-06-2008, 10:35 AM
Generally with a family/casual type guild like this you need a total incentive based loot system, that is non discriminating against anything. Doing this will usually stimulate growth in more casual players and a desire to attend more in your better players.

If you are using a loot council, suicide kings and in some cases a zero sum system you are most likely not providing enough incentive to raid, using a per boss kill/on time open end bid system generally works well in this type of guild.

I'd say this depends on your raiders, and your goals, though I certainly agree with your premise. We're a casual-raiding guild, which means we raid three nights a week for three hours a night. We almost never go over that amount of time commitment. So there isn't a lot of "farm" time in our schedule if we want to keep progressing.

One of the things I'm constantly battling is getting people to give up the idea that they "need" that one particular item before they can move on. I'm always quoting Ciderhelm's "Raid Pacing" guide, and some comments Joanadark has made here about gearing. So, frankly, it was more important for us to separate raiding and loot than to incentivize raiding with the latter.

Which is not to say that people don't need incentives. But we've made raiding itself the incentive (you show up X% of our raid days, you get dibs on our raid slots) rather than try to motivate people with the possibility of loot. So our loot system is SK - we pretty much just use it to decide whose "turn" it is to receive loot - and our incentive system is our Raider rank.

I think Centx's post holds true for a number of guilds, and it's definitely the standard way to do things. But do think about what sorts of problems you struggle with as a guild and whether making a change like that will exacerbate or alleviate that problem.

DKP would not have worked for us because, with our particular raiders, it would have increased the feeling that people have a "right" to loot (they can "buy" it with their DKP) and thus increased the already strong resistance we face to dropping old content.

Nuberino
02-06-2008, 10:38 AM
My guild is in the same spot as you are. We are just entering SSC now - I hope to see Lurker and Hydross down on our next raid.

We are a very casual guild. We have 1 25 man raid a week, while in the mean time we run 2 Karas and are struggling to get 2 ZAs running (getting 3 well geared healers for more than 1 ZA run a week seems to be a challenge).

All our raids are filled through our web site as a general "first come first serve" sign up. This has worked for us for the most part as our casual attitude means that rl has full priority. This also means that often our raid roster varies quite a bit from one week to another - though there is always a core group of ~15 folks (mostly officers, tanks/healers) that come every week.

Our loot system is what we call "friendly and selfless". All loot is rolled on for primary spec (tanks get priority on some items - but this is pretty loose), the winner of the roll can use the item or pass it to someone else of their choosing that needs the item for their primary spec. We don't want to implement a dkp system, but suicide kings has come up a few times and we know we want to keep folks motivated to coming to raids.

Our system has worked for us up until now. But as we move into SSC and are coming up against enrage timers (Hydross is the first one I am worried about) and gear becomes more of an issue, we will have to be both more selective with the gear requirements for the raids and sooner or later we will just come up against a wall where our average raider just doesn't cut it for bosses as loot is spread out to many people.

Lunestone
02-06-2008, 10:45 AM
Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.

I don't pug heroics... and that is why. Thankfully i don't really have to but because of said healer I mentioned and the fact that our guild has grown really fast... i have to pick and choose who I talk to in my guild so I get the best players on a heroic run.

You can't deny that yeah skill can get you thru a lot... but trying to run a heroic when you know your gear isn't up to par isn't fair to anyone. There are some ppl that can get away with it... but a majority of ppl can't. I would only say that people that already have a 70 and have done those heroics don't not fall into the "honor keyed ppl suck" theory.

I'm not on a freaking high horse.... I just expect other people to do the same work and get the same experience like I and many others had to do to be prepared for heroics. Playing on an alt that is honor keyed is NOT like someone playing on their main that is honor keyed - again exceptions to some skilled players.

Horacio
02-06-2008, 10:50 AM
Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.


It opened the door for alot of inexperienced players who have not seen the instances very many times to join the 'LFG' crowd. It also opened the door for very good players on thier alts or with some facet of not liking a certain instance and not wanting to go to still be able to get into heroics now. Its good and bad. In general, I hate PuGs but I play on a backwater cesspool of a server and playing a tank and a healer as my "mains" I don't have to go out of guild. I am running with a known quantity.

Bad players are bad players whether they are 'Friendly' or 'Exalted' with Lower City. That said, the change did open it up for less experienced players to get into heroics.

Lunestone
02-06-2008, 11:03 AM
Where's Cider's guide on progression that someone mentioned? :D

Ceravantes
02-06-2008, 11:10 AM
I'd say this depends on your raiders, and your goals, though I certainly agree with your premise. We're a casual-raiding guild, which means we raid three nights a week for three hours a night. We almost never go over that amount of time commitment. So there isn't a lot of "farm" time in our schedule if we want to keep progressing.

One of the things I'm constantly battling is getting people to give up the idea that they "need" that one particular item before they can move on. I'm always quoting Ciderhelm's "Raid Pacing" guide, and some comments Joanadark has made here about gearing. So, frankly, it was more important for us to separate raiding and loot than to incentivize raiding with the latter.

Which is not to say that people don't need incentives. But we've made raiding itself the incentive (you show up X% of our raid days, you get dibs on our raid slots) rather than try to motivate people with the possibility of loot. So our loot system is SK - we pretty much just use it to decide whose "turn" it is to receive loot - and our incentive system is our Raider rank.

I think Centx's post holds true for a number of guilds, and it's definitely the standard way to do things. But do think about what sorts of problems you struggle with as a guild and whether making a change like that will exacerbate or alleviate that problem.

DKP would not have worked for us because, with our particular raiders, it would have increased the feeling that people have a "right" to loot (they can "buy" it with their DKP) and thus increased the already strong resistance we face to dropping old content.


This is true, I think my post may have been a bit generalized. however, you are already in the content they are trying to start, which is where the major difference lies.

I was the mt/raid leader, and an officer (guild leader in all but name, as i ran all administration aspects of the guild) in a T5 raiding guild and we saw alot of the same problems during our initial push into ssc/tk, and it helped speed us through vashj and onto kael attempts before the admin stress, and a few people quitting the game finally lead to me moving on to a slightly further progressed guild on another server.

I also had similar situations running guilds in EQ, incentive based loot sytems jsut work better for the Majority of guilds, because it does exactly what is syas it does, gives incentive to show up, which is always the problem when transitioning to new content. I think this is even more true in a game like wow because the player base as a whole is so much bigger, and generally speaking, much more casual.

As a side not, I started writing a guide about this sort of thing for this site awhile ago, but gave it up when the forums were first changed around, making guild relations non-existant. If there is still an interest i could possibly find the time to finish it up.

Ceravantes
02-06-2008, 11:15 AM
I didn't read through them to find it exactly lune, buit its in one of these threads, they also ahve some sueful tidbits that should pertain to your problem.

Admin vs Leadership

Lot discussion

motivational tools

Anaea
02-06-2008, 11:31 AM
Time Management for Raiding Guilds (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/guild-general/32593-time-management-raiding-guilds.html)

And I agreed, Centx, I think for the majority of raiding guilds and the majority of raiders the loot is the incentive system. We're an odd collection of mostly working professionals who already have hangups about putting so much "work" into a game, and we have a limited raid schedule -- so DKP would have been a poor fit, and raiders who need DKP would be a poor fit with us anyway. :)

For what it's worth, this is the system we've run with since downing Gruul for the first time. Incentive is the raider rank (i.e. raid slot priority) and SK does the loot. But it's definitely dependent on who your raiders are, and wouldn't work for everyone.

Rak
02-06-2008, 11:55 AM
Every guild's officers get tired of running Kara. And it almost always happens well before your guild can stop running it. You just have to /sigh and run it until it actually becomes harmful to your progress to run it on raid nights.

byechee
02-06-2008, 12:32 PM
Hopefully everyone knows by now that healing meters aren't everything, and having full mana when other healers have half doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing their job (potting early, 5 sec rule etc). Some healers like to spam as many people as they can and get high on the meters, that's fine. Some healers like to stick to who they're assigned to heal and only heal others when direly needed - and sometimes this is fine as well. Striking a balance between these two extremes is good for most raids I would say. As long as people don't die, I don't think there's a problem.

As for the OP's original example, 11% of total raid healing isn't bad at all if there's at least 7 healers in the raid, especially since priests don't get PoM or PWS counted into their own heals. Also, if you really must look at numbers, check for overheal% as well as effective healing, as the two combined can be more telling of a healer's skill than just the one stat.

Just keep things like this in mind when attempting to evaluate player skill. Things aren't always cut and dry.

Horacio
02-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Healing meters are valuable but very wide open to interpretation. You can achieve different results but mixing up assignments and roles within a raid. If you put a healer on your MT on trash, they will fall behind because the MT in most cases doesn't take alot of damage and the healer can either fight for scraps by popping in a few raide heals or just focus on the MT and fall down the meter. Just because a person is lower on the meter doesn't say much. WHY they are lower is the key. WHEN is critical. Are they the weakest healer by far during trash where no one dies and they are tasked with the MT and 1 or 2 are dedicated raid healers? ok, so what? Are they lowest healing for a boss fight where they are one of 5 assinged to keep the tank up through a ton of damage? Are they not casting the same spells as others? Are they focused and paying attention? Or are they watching TV, afk, chatting with friends through tells?

Lunestone
02-06-2008, 01:14 PM
Hopefully everyone knows by now that healing meters aren't everything, and having full mana when other healers have half doesn't necessarily mean they aren't doing their job (potting early, 5 sec rule etc). Some healers like to spam as many people as they can and get high on the meters, that's fine. Some healers like to stick to who they're assigned to heal and only heal others when direly needed - and sometimes this is fine as well. Striking a balance between these two extremes is good for most raids I would say. As long as people don't die, I don't think there's a problem.

As for the OP's original example, 11% of total raid healing isn't bad at all if there's at least 7 healers in the raid, especially since priests don't get PoM or PWS counted into their own heals. Also, if you really must look at numbers, check for overheal% as well as effective healing, as the two combined can be more telling of a healer's skill than just the one stat.

Just keep things like this in mind when attempting to evaluate player skill. Things aren't always cut and dry.

This is in kara. And her overheal is outrageous. I wouldn't have said anything to anyone... ran a heroic with her... unbuffed i'm about 14.5K health, so like what 15.5K in a heroic? Almost constantly I was going down to a few thousand health without one heal. I didn't say anything at first... but slowly... one tank is telling me she's bad... another person is telling me... another and another. All saying she sometimes is just not healing... she even said one time "Oh whoops guys I went to go get a drink." It's very frustrating it's that bad and yes she's been talked to... but never reprimanded. But people don't wanna be mean... I felt like I even went too far the other day when she was bragging about some epic dps boots she got... another priest linked me blues that were better for healing and I was like screw it - I told her "those are dps boots... these are better" and i linked them. "These are even better." Linked the boots from heroic mech.

She gave me some excuse and i was like... talk to the other healer, he'll help you out.

Calamity
02-06-2008, 01:16 PM
Let me again state that the "honor keyed" player sux theory is FALSE.

Easiest key to get is KoT yet it's the hardest heroic to do.

People sucking has nothing to do with their rep.

Gear often has nothing to with people sucking either but yes it can make a difference.

So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad. As an example, I have a lvl 63 Pally alt I have been running in my spare time.My server is pretty low pop. and since I play my main at peak times, and my alts at off peak, she hasn't grouped much. She has 2 heroic keys in her bags already, but has yet to step foot in an outland instance, at all. It is a very real possibility for newer players to queu for heroics with NO group experience at all.

The lowering of the key standard has opened the door for totally inexperienced players to be "eligible" for heroics. This doesn't mean they will all be bad, but it has certainly affected the "group skill" level of the talent pool vying to tke part in heroic runs.

So get off your "honor keyed" high horses and just quit pugging heroics if it's that bad.Umm. wasn't the point of lowering this key requirement to increase participation in heroics. if the best solution to the change is to decrease the number of pugs, why make the change?After all constant failure will only lead to less pugs, which is less runs for non guilded players,(and really heroics were intended as an avenue for progression for non guildees, and low population guilds, unable to muster the reserves to raid.)

Lunestone
02-06-2008, 01:38 PM
Bottomline... you know tanks have a certain relationship with their healers... healers trust me to keep them safe, I trust them to keep me alive. I have a lot of respect for my healers and when someone comes in bragging about how good they are although we know isn't doing their job... i'm annoyed for myself who needs the heals and for my healers that are working hard and taking up her slack while she prances around leeching epics.

Newbs I don't think really bother me... it's a certain attitude that they have about it. Are they always or almost always early... are they trying to improve themselves... are they not holding the raid up or not making excuses. And even then at some point... like we have a couple of hunters that are doing the same dps as the MT when a higher dps isn't available to raid. They've been talked to for a long time and no improvements... at what point do you cut them loose? I can't see my GM booting anyone... but he has mentioned some ppl might just not get in the raids and will get the hint.

Bullwrinkle
02-06-2008, 02:23 PM
That really depends what direction your guild wants to go, if you cant be bothered to take the time and effort to try and revamp playstyles/gearing/rotations(Dps mostly here) then can you just drop them? I know some people wont take direction, and refuse to learn, but its a complicated situation for sure, I know we have a similar thing going on, like just about any guild will. At some point you have to decide if you want to try and focus on having the best raid possible, or subbing in a couple people that you love to have around, or that are trying to do the best they can. (Gear as a nonissue) In the guild I am in, I feel I am right up there with some of the better people we have, and can hold my own toe to toe with our dps'ers in aggro, but unfortunately, I am trying to recover from a 6 month hiatus on gear, so I still have some work to do, so I am viable. As a non tank this would be less of an issue, but a dead tank is worth less to a raid then a mediocre dpser, lol.

Finelle
02-07-2008, 09:55 AM
I can relate to the pugging situation. I play tank warrior/mage/hunter and my s/o plays dps warrior/holy priest/hunter.

Our favourite setups are either me on the tank, her on the healer, or both of us on our "mains", because known quantities are good. When we PuG, we usually PuG the easier heroics. BM heroic daily? Time to start going through friend/guild/channel lists.

As for leaving players behind, I've had to do that a couple times. Always hated it, even if their performance was downright abysmal. It's a RL failing of mine too, it's hard for me to say no to most things when asked nicely.

In my guild, we raid pretty much all over the place. We've something like four Karazhans posting signups and my clique runs KZ whenever we feel like it for badges and alt gearing. The guild alliance my guild is in (SASU) also hosts a few 25man raids. When I started my run, there was a signup Gruul raid that would smash face against Gruul... for months and months. The reason? All kinds of undergeared, unready people would signup, and pretty much guarantee a full repair or two. There were terrible players too and the RL (who I know) would massively <facepalm> because these people kept signing up week after week. He eventually burned out of leading that run.

It was a vicious cycle, some terribad or green-plastered players would sign up, ensuring that the raid ate wipe after wipe, and as a result of months of hitting a brick wall, many of the good folk stopped signing up. So this poor RL was stuck with taking a raid composition that promised endless repair bills, which only fed back into the cycle.

Which is why I started the run on an invite basis and not a signup basis. It's helped to minimize the fallout from a few incidents, but I've been rather lucky so far to play with a whole bunch of great players. Having to openly deroster people is something I'd like to avoid.

ttocs
02-07-2008, 01:31 PM
This was the main topic occurring in my prior guild, and that's part of the reason why I left it.

See, they're progressing.. they just killed Kael'thas, and they'll probably get Vashj soon.

But, you're talking a month+ worth of attempts on Kael alone.

They have healers that don't use mana potions (and call "oom" in raid), they have tanks with no awareness, they had DPS that was slacking horribly... and they didn't want to confront people. Not even a "hey, you need to step it up". They wanted to coddle everyone. They didn't want them to think that they're bad.

One thing they did do right, however, was close the door on certain instances. "We're not doing kara anymore, you can organize raids on off nights". When they stopped doing Gruul and Mag, many people complained. For our guild, Mag was fairly group-specific (they used 5 warlocks for the infernals), and people were tired of doing gruul. It was necessary to drop these old instances to move along. They were free to form pugs whenever they wanted.

In the end, your guild is going to have to say "you're going to have a bit of a talking-to from our officers, and if you don't improve, you'll find yourself on a waitlist".

In the end, a bunch of us that worked our butts off in the raids left, and while I'm sure the guild leader is villifying us to his guild for leaving and "screwing over" the community... they've cut back the hours that they're raiding, and they were basically forced to go more casual.

In short, make your decision: Do you want to keep going? or are you content with your current pacing? If you don't decide to keep going, the people who put their all into raids and are unhappy with those who aren't performing will leave, leaving you with just one choice.

Make sure you keep your ear to the ground, though, and be aware of what others want.

Finelle
02-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Oh, our story has a happier ending... or continuing. We teamed up with another guild and are now 3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC. Right off the bat, the RL declared that this was going to be a dictatorship, not a democracy.

Ciderhelm
02-07-2008, 06:01 PM
Right off the bat, the RL declared that this was going to be a dictatorship, not a democracy.

That's really what good guilds come down to, a decision that you won't please everyone at every time, but you'll pursue the goals you set out to.

Ceravantes
02-07-2008, 08:12 PM
Oh, our story has a happier ending... or continuing. We teamed up with another guild and are now 3/4 TK and 5/6 SSC. Right off the bat, the RL declared that this was going to be a dictatorship, not a democracy.

This is the only way to be consistently successful. Take a look at the admin vs leadership thread linked on page 2 it is discussing basically the same thing.

inhumanist
02-07-2008, 11:30 PM
Healing and tanking raids can be tough, but DPS is freaking easy. If someone has the gear, but isn't smart enough to do damage, kick the from the guild - there is no hope.

Lunestone
02-08-2008, 12:50 AM
Yeah having that issue now... that certain healer I mentioned? Didn't realize until today she has almost all her epics. We've geared ALL her epics.... but she's been complaining about not getting into Gruul's. We have two hunters... a lot of epics, also no skill. Just realizing that one is living with one of our good healers which makes an uncomfortable situation. We lose a dps spot in one of our kara runs and he's always suggesting his gf... sigh.... I hate that women take advantage of their bf's/whatever to get into raids.

So that's the thing... some officers tired of gearing ppl that just don't have the skill. And sounds like we need to be more selective who we take in. I'm not positive about this hunter I just brought in... but he has a lot less epics than another hunter that is decent dps and he was keeping up on the dmg meter.

Talani
02-08-2008, 08:39 AM
Lets face it..Raiding has changed. EVERYONE has to pull their weight and be accountable. With smaller raid caps and more and more complicated bosses you can't go into SSC or TK ..in a lesser case KARA with the same mind set you would back in the days of MC. Blizz isnt going to make this easy on us and thats just the way we like it..but raids today have to be on the backs of every single person in the raid or its not going to work. This is sadly why only 10% of the people playing wow will see encounters beyond maybe lurker below.

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 08:44 AM
Raiding hasn't changed quite that much.

MC when TBC came out was not the same MC at launch in terms of the difficulty of getting a raid through it, just as SSC/TK at WotLK will be/already is much easier than at launch.

Talani
02-08-2008, 08:49 AM
I ment in the respect that if you have 40 people...2 of them can suck and you will still be ok. If you have 10 people and 2 are slackers..the whole raid is going to feel it. I don't think most WoW players want to put in the effort.

Ceravantes
02-08-2008, 08:51 AM
Raiding hasn't changed quite that much.

MC when TBC came out was not the same MC at launch in terms of the difficulty of getting a raid through it, just as SSC/TK at WotLK will be/already is much easier than at launch.

Raiding today is the same as raiding yesterday, or 6 months ago, or 10 years ago. If you bring sub-par players, gear or skill wise, you will not progress fast enough.

You say Pre bc raiding was easier, did you clelr mc at its launch, when the best gear available was from ubrs, and you needed a solid 15 player raid to jsut do that zone?

Lowering the Raid cap has not changed raiding in the slightest, it has not even made less skilled players easier to spot. What has made these things apparent is the fact that the content you are currently raiding is not trivial to your ear level like mc was pre-bc.

Let's be totally honest, BC raiding is lame and gimmicky, not harder than pre-BC and if anything easier, as you only need to learn a gimmick once, then it is basically a farmable fight.

Talani
02-08-2008, 08:58 AM
I am not saying they where easy at the launch..and I'm not saying pre BC raiding was not hard. I am saying that with less people if someone is clearly not pulling their weight..with two healers if one is only doing 7% of the healing the raid feels it..where as in a 40 man when you have 10 or so healers if one isn't pulling his weight its not going to hinder the raid that much.

Asharax
02-08-2008, 08:59 AM
I ment in the respect that if you have 40 people...2 of them can suck and you will still be ok. If you have 10 people and 2 are slackers..the whole raid is going to feel it. I don't think most WoW players want to put in the effort.

Unfortunately this is true :/. My favorite are the players that think pvp gear is WAY better than most lower level instance gear, like some kara drops, so they don't bother trying to get better replacements for raiding than the pvp gear they did arena or bg's for. I have to just sit back and tell these people to rethink their class mechanics and if they can't figure out why pvp gear != pve gear then I just laugh at them.

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 08:59 AM
I ment in the respect that if you have 40 people...2 of them can suck and you will still be ok. If you have 10 people and 2 are slackers..the whole raid is going to feel it. I don't think most WoW players want to put in the effort.

What I'm saying is that there was a time when that wasn't true in MC. Even just Molten Core used to be a brutal instance which required coordination from everyone b/c the gear wasn't in place to make it easier. At one time, if one person screwed up the bomb on Geddon or aggro on Shazzrah, the raid wiped with no exceptions, b/c no one had the gear to survive it -- then the raid had to come back in and clear to the boss, b/c the timers were incredibly short and there were no repair bots. But, they didn't come back in through a portal, they cam back in by clearing Blackrock Depths first. :o

Also stands to note, I went through BT where 1/4th of the raid were absolutely sub-par. Mediocre players can still slide by even in very successful guilds.


This to me is a particularly annoying topic because so many people have this opinion of pre-TBC raid instances which is just inaccurate. It's like today when you'll see people say Tempest Keep is easy, it's just for noobs -- sure, it's easier now, but it's also not the same instance it was at release. (And aside from that, it's still not 'just for noobs')

Ceravantes
02-08-2008, 09:03 AM
I am not saying they where easy at the launch..and I'm not saying pre BC raiding was not hard. I am saying that with less people if someone is clearly not pulling their weight..with two healers if one is only doing 7% of the healing the raid feels it..where as in a 40 man when you have 10 or so healers if one isn't pulling his weight its not going to hinder the raid that much.

That attitude is counter productive to raiding at any time. I personally won't raid with anyone not pulling their weight, be it in a 40/25/10 man raid zone. It has nothing to do with the size of the raid.

But the statement in itself is false, at it's inception if you did not have 40 very capable players you would not be completing mc, likewise with bwl, aq40 and naxx, moving on into all current raiding content. The instances are tuned to have 40/25/10 people in them, all pulling their weight, after gear is acheived the instances become more trivial and less skilled player may be sucessful in them, but you are suggesting that the number of players in a zone directly affects the difficulty of the zone, when in fact gear/skill and level are the only factors that contribute to it.

Ceravantes
02-08-2008, 09:06 AM
What I'm saying is that there was a time when that wasn't true in MC. Even just Molten Core used to be a brutal instance which required coordination from everyone b/c the gear wasn't in place to make it easier. At one time, if one person screwed up the bomb on Geddon or aggro on Shazzrah, the raid wiped with no exceptions, b/c no one had the gear to survive it -- then the raid had to come back in and clear to the boss, b/c the timers were incredibly short and there were no repair bots. But, they didn't come back in through a portal, they cam back in by clearing Blackrock Depths first. :o

Also stands to note, I went through BT where 1/4th of the raid were absolutely sub-par. Mediocre players can still slide by even in very successful guilds.


This to me is a particularly annoying topic because so many people have this opinion of pre-TBC raid instances which is just inaccurate. It's like today when you'll see people say Tempest Keep is easy, it's just for noobs -- sure, it's easier now, but it's also not the same instance it was at release. (And aside from that, it's still not 'just for noobs')

This irritates me mroe than anything about end game raiding, and people thinking older instances are/were worth nothing when they were launched.

Talani
02-08-2008, 09:16 AM
I know they where hard! and im not talking about gear because I know people with great gear but I would never want to do an instace with them nor am I talking about things like not moving in flame wreath because thats to noticable. But generel slackers..who spend half the raid AFK and the other half with a full mana bar.

Also I highly doubt that top end guilds would take to many undergeared or players who couldn't do their job to new end game content so I have to speak for when the casual players like me get there.

Also you shouldn't get so upset when someone disagrees with you ^^ you will live longer.

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 09:26 AM
I highly doubt that top end guilds would take to many undergeared or players who couldn't do their job to new end game content so I have to speak for when the casual players like me get there.

But that's not accurate. The first 25-man fight that genuinely requires coordination from everyone is Gorefiend, followed by Mother. In both cases, most top-tier guilds can wipe and wipe and wipe even on otherwise good nights.

The first requirement of top guilds is that a player has to meet their raiding hours. For guilds, this will be between 20-36 hours. There are not a lot of players who can do this, and guilds will always recruit a bad player of a needed class over a good player of a needed class that can't make the schedule.

Long after Illidan dying, we had a Warlock who still pulled aggro every few pulls. He'd wipe us every step of the way, including particularly brutal wipes on Gurtogg, a fight that should be easy. These kinds of players exist at every level of content in every size of raid.

Bad players with good schedules are still part of raiding. Bad players still wipe raids at roughly the same pace as they did at any other time, assuming you're on new content which requires a brain. Top guilds simply have more time to put up with bad players.

I also cleared Karazhan with bad players when we were undergeared for it back in late January last year. You can muck your way through anything if you wipe enough. :)

Hypatia
02-08-2008, 09:38 AM
The first requirement of top guilds is that a player has to meet their raiding hours. For guilds, this will be between 20-36 hours. There are not a lot of players who can do this, and guilds will always recruit a bad player of a needed class over a good player of a needed class that can't make the schedule.

*shudder*

God, I am glad I belong to a casual raiding guild. Sure, we're still in early MH/BT in progression now, but our raiding hours amount to 12 hours a week. I cannot imagine spending twice to three times that much time raiding without both losing my job and going bat-shit insane.

I'll give up that amount of progression for a less stressful schedule any day.

Horacio
02-08-2008, 09:40 AM
That's an interesting point. Raiding only the 9-10 hours a week my guild does, everything has to be that much closer to perfect. Screw ups on 'farm' bosses are less tolerable and scheduling has to be more precise. We downed Leo for the first time last night. We had 3 people in there who had never seen the fight including the paladin who has been my pet project because her performance was beyond terrible. We had spent several nights on Leo, never getting lower than 35&#37;. Crushed him on the 3rd pull last night and never spent that agonizing time trying to figure out how to survive 15%-0%

Point is, guilds that raid many more hours can afford to brute force it. We did it without our best lineup. Through raiding 20-30 hours per week comes repetition and builds 'skill'. The 10 hour a week or less guilds neither have the margin for error nor the amount of 'training' of thier more hardcore counterparts.

Its right to demand and expect to roll over content and not slack ass on farm bosses but to sit there after a single wipe on a boss you've one shot 3 weeks in a row and get all emo about it isn't going to help. No one is perfect and mistakes happen. There is this perception that the elite guilds step into raids and play perfectly and when your casual guild wipes on Lurker, "OMG, we suck" but it not accurate. That's not to say any player in one kind of guild is equal to players in another type of guild but both of those players are human and put thier pants on one leg at a time.

Talani
02-08-2008, 09:59 AM
ok I guess this is my fault for not wording my argument correctly.

Take 2

Forget top guilds, gear, time alotted and instance diffacultie

what I am saying in a group of casual raiders it appers to me that in a 40 man raid if one person is not pulling their weight it is less harmful to the raid then say in a 10 man. To me It seems like BC raiding is harder (not saying that MC ,BWL or naxx where not hard..because I spent whipe after whipe clearing them to) only because people have focus more on how they play their chars. This is the same reason most of you don't do pugs. There is less wiggle room in lower raid caps.

veneretio
02-08-2008, 12:16 PM
ok I guess this is my fault for not wording my argument correctly.

Take 2

Forget top guilds, gear, time alotted and instance diffacultie

what I am saying in a group of casual raiders it appers to me that in a 40 man raid if one person is not pulling their weight it is less harmful to the raid then say in a 10 man. To me It seems like BC raiding is harder (not saying that MC ,BWL or naxx where not hard..because I spent whipe after whipe clearing them to) only because people have focus more on how they play their chars. This is the same reason most of you don't do pugs. There is less wiggle room in lower raid caps.
I'll agree and disagree with you on this one.

Agreed: 1 death in a 40 man, 1 person not pulling their weight... meh whatever. I death in a 10 man, 1 person not pulling their weight... big deal.

Disagree: BC raiding isn't necessarily harder, it's probably easier in a lot of ways. (and from what I'm told nothing still compares to naxx) The difference is the BC forces your weakest player to be a lot better than he used to have to be. There is a higher stand for mediocrity, but that doesn't mean for strong players that the game is any more difficult than it ever was.

I'd sum it up as the game is harder for weak players and easier for strong players. So some raids are going to find this game a lot easier than before where as others will find it a lot harder. BC is about Depth not your Starting 5.

Talani
02-08-2008, 12:30 PM
..so..you..agree with me? thats what im saying no matter where you go if you have strong players of course things will easyer. but say you have 9 strong ones..and 1 weak one. The raid IS going to suffer...the strong players will no doubt notice it and do something but say you have 39 strong players..and one slacker.. its not going to be as easy to notice.

all I am saying BC aids are harder because in SSC TK and im sure BT if you do not know how you play your class effectivly the raid will suffer. sometimes it is just a learning curve...we all are newbies at one point but we all know people that just suck. Would you take that person to BT?

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 01:01 PM
all I am saying BC aids are harder because in SSC TK and im sure BT if you do not know how you play your class effectivly the raid will suffer.

This is where the line is crossed.

Let me make this clear. 25-man raids are not harder than 40-man raids. If you didn't advance through each of the 40-man raids, wouldn't it be reasonable to not comment on them?

You can make your original point -- that people need to carry their weight in raids -- without saying a word about 40-man raids.

Talani
02-08-2008, 01:59 PM
Who said I never went through 40 man raids? If I had not I would agree with you that yes I shouldn't be able to comment on them.

I gave a reason why I think the way I do but just saying "25-man raids are not harder than 40-man raids" does not give me any insight on why you think that.

You said also in a earlyer post

"Long after Illidan dying, we had a Warlock who still pulled aggro every few pulls. He'd wipe us every step of the way, including particularly brutal wipes on Gurtogg, a fight that should be easy. These kinds of players exist at every level of content in every size of raid."

I agree with you to that bad players then are still bad players now.
but if you have less people means you have less of a chance to recover from it right?

I am not saying that 40 man raids where a cake walk and only noobs did them blah blah. I know they where hard..sometimes crazy hard. I recall the spider wing like most people would a horrable dream about prison rape. and i screamed like a little girl whenever we did twin emps.
I have alot of respect for 40 mans and the people who mastered them.

again I should have worded that last post better and not have stated it as fact but merly my veiw. In my opioin 25 man raids have givin more raiding guilds trouble then 40 man raids. I am not trying to call you out or anything and I really want to know why you think I am wrong ^^ but do not stress over it though because its really not important what I think, and even though right now I am interested..the secound I get off work thoughts of 40 manning anything will be replaced with getting my neece a birthday gift and pints of Guinness.

Taelas
02-08-2008, 02:44 PM
People don't need to carry their weight. All they need to do is be capable of understanding simple instructions -- and if it deviates from "do what you usually do", getting the point after it's been spammed in their faces a couple times at once is good enough. ("You're exploding, move to the wall!!", "STOP DPS!", etc.)

This is of course assuming you don't care about your progress pace and that you have all the time in the world to bash your head at a boss. Eventually people will grasp the concept and you'll get the loot.

I've only been through MC and BWL, but it was beaten pretty soundly into my head all the same. "Stand where you're told to stand, move when you're told to move, and otherwise do what you're always doing, and listen to any extra instructions" pretty much sums it up.

This goes for all raids, no matter the size. If you can listen to the tactics, you're a shoe-in.

Of course, people who raid bleeding edge content do not have the luxury of getting tactics handed to them -- they are the ones making the tactics. If you're one of those, my hat's off to you. But the vast majority of raiders aren't, and even within bleeding edge groups, you can get by with having instruction-bots.

Talani
02-08-2008, 03:02 PM
So your saying its ok to slack off during a raid so long as your standing in the right spot? I think that would only hinder your raid. True you can't beat a boss without knowing what to do and when to do it, but its not ganna die unless tanks tank..tanks get healed..and dps burns the jerk down.

Order taking in a must but if your not putting in work then what good are you to the raid? if your not pulling your weight why do you deserve epics? thats just how I see it.

Taelas
02-08-2008, 03:17 PM
That's not what I'm saying.

I said they had to be capable of following simple instructions. That obviously includes DPSing, healing and tanking.

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 04:02 PM
So your saying its ok to slack off during a raid so long as your standing in the right spot? I think that would only hinder your raid. True you can't beat a boss without knowing what to do and when to do it, but its not ganna die unless tanks tank..tanks get healed..and dps burns the jerk down.

Order taking in a must but if your not putting in work then what good are you to the raid? if your not pulling your weight why do you deserve epics? thats just how I see it.

Why aren't 25-mans harder than 40-mans?

There are four encounters you could not limp through; C'thun, Thaddius, Four Horsemen, and Gothik. You couldn't outgear those at the time -- everyone in your raid had to have a clue what they were doing.

The reason people give a bad rap to Molten Core and Blackwing is because if and when they did it, they entered them with gear well beyond the encounter difficulty. Molten Core with UBRS loot was much different than Molten Core with Dire Maul and battlegrounds loot... just like Karazhan with Arena gear is much different than Karazhan without it.

You can't write off all encounters as equal except for numbers. Encounters actually have to be programmed to be more difficult, and in TBC, they weren't. Gorefiend is the only do-or-die encounter where people have to know what they're doing, and even there, you can keep wiping 'til you get the right combination of players.


The reason I quoted your post was this -- you suggest that players have to really excel at their class, moreso now than in 40-mans.

Consider this:
Naxxramas requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.
Black Temple requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.

If you followed the Chinese guild that cleared all TBC endgame in T3 gear, you'll know I'm not kidding.


You had to meet certain DPS minimums in pre-TBC. You rarely do in TBC, and when you do, they are minimal. You had to meet certain tanking requirements in pre-TBC, which virtually required Effective Health stacking in deeper content. In TBC, you can stack whatever you want and be successful. Really. Knowing your class has almost nothing to do with it, which is kind of sad.

Again, I'll reiterate. Content is time spent. It's not player skill. It used to require some player skill, and it occasionally does still. But 25-mans are not harder than 40-mans were. Period.

//Edit: As a point of reference, skill =/= basic game mechanics. The reason some guilds take more hours to complete content is because they don't figure out very basic concepts like how to stop DPS or alternate tanks.

Ceravantes
02-08-2008, 04:42 PM
Why aren't 25-mans harder than 40-mans?

There are four encounters you could not limp through; C'thun, Thaddius, Four Horsemen, and Gothik. You couldn't outgear those at the time -- everyone in your raid had to have a clue what they were doing.

The reason people give a bad rap to Molten Core and Blackwing is because if and when they did it, they entered them with gear well beyond the encounter difficulty. Molten Core with UBRS loot was much different than Molten Core with Dire Maul and battlegrounds loot... just like Karazhan with Arena gear is much different than Karazhan without it.


You can't write off all encounters as equal except for numbers. Encounters actually have to be programmed to be more difficult, and in TBC, they weren't. Gorefiend is the only do-or-die encounter where people have to know what they're doing, and even there, you can keep wiping 'til you get the right combination of players.


The reason I quoted your post was this -- you suggest that players have to really excel at their class, moreso now than in 40-mans.

Consider this:
Naxxramas requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.
Black Temple requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.

If you followed the Chinese guild that cleared all TBC endgame in T3 gear, you'll know I'm not kidding.


You had to meet certain DPS minimums in pre-TBC. You rarely do in TBC, and when you do, they are minimal. You had to meet certain tanking requirements in pre-TBC, which virtually required Effective Health stacking in deeper content. In TBC, you can stack whatever you want and be successful. Really. Knowing your class has almost nothing to do with it, which is kind of sad.

Again, I'll reiterate. Content is time spent. It's not player skill. It used to require some player skill, and it occasionally does still. But 25-mans are not harder than 40-mans were. Period.

^

.....They made the game easier, and continue to make it easier. There is absolutely no way that content now is harder than content then.


The key to this whole conversation was said above perfectly in cider's last post, and was what I was getting at but never quite stated it clearly enough. The bit about mmc being different with ubrs gear than with battlegroun and dire maul gear, Dire Maul was implemented into the game because mc was too hard with to progress through for the non cutting edge raiders, the game has continually been dumbed down as we progress as has been posted about here a number of times.

There is mabe 2-3 truly difficult encounters in tbc, the rest are so scripted and gimmicky that 1 kill generally means farmable cotent, this was not the case pre-bc in new content, and was not the case in other mmo's.

Taelas
02-08-2008, 06:57 PM
Consider this:
Naxxramas requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.
Black Temple requires raiders in T3 gear to complete.

If you followed the Chinese guild that cleared all TBC endgame in T3 gear, you'll know I'm not kidding.

That's not entirely fair, and you know it. There are maybe a dozen T3 pieces throughout the raid in that picture.

And nothing says they actually wore that gear on the kill.

Danach
02-08-2008, 07:13 PM
There is a newer guild on our server composed of people who started new toons to go through the content as quickly as they could manage it. The started Raiding mid December. They are currently halfway through BT/Hyjal. Looking at that, and the gear they are currently wearing, I would say the statement that BT requires raiders in T3 gear to complete isn't all that off base.

If your interested, here's the armory link to the guild.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/guild-info.xml?r=Dunemaul&n=Last+Ascension&p=1)

Taelas
02-08-2008, 07:19 PM
They are wearing better quality loot than T3, so I really don't see your point.

Talani
02-08-2008, 07:31 PM
You have put an alarming amount of thought into this Mr. Helm well played. I can see why others think so highly of you.

I understand what your saying... I think you can write off me paying attention to what chinse guilds are doing. Infact I never really payed attention to what top guilds on my server are doing.

In my WoW Career I have had more issue with 25 man raids then 40 man ones. so yeah I really can only speak for myself and to be honest didn't put much thought into my agrument.

I will accept that your rightand that 40 mans are harder then newer 25 man raid. But I think you should put less effort in wow and more into finding a cure for cancer or solving crimes. I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers to bad.

Personally ...do you still play wow? if so why do you put so much effort into being skilled if you don't need any skill..just alot of free time?

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 08:17 PM
That's not entirely fair, and you know it. There are maybe a dozen T3 pieces throughout the raid in that picture.

And nothing says they actually wore that gear on the kill.

It is, however, fair to say that it was mostly Karazhan gear, which is by and large the same item level as deep T3 gear. They completed the content so quickly that it wouldn't have been significantly beyond that for anyone but their main tank.

Ciderhelm
02-08-2008, 08:33 PM
Amending that statement:
Not same Item Levels, but mostly the same quality.

Nayre
02-08-2008, 10:53 PM
I don't think it's quite so much it being okay to slack off during a raid - ideally, no one wants others to do that. Hell, even the people that do slack off want the others to not slack off, as it means less work for them. Rather, I think what the issue is, is that people can slack off and have the raid still progress, albeit a bit more slowly.

Anaea
02-12-2008, 08:30 AM
But that's not accurate. The first 25-man fight that genuinely requires coordination from everyone is Gorefiend, followed by Mother. In both cases, most top-tier guilds can wipe and wipe and wipe even on otherwise good nights.

With all due respect, Cider, I think your position hanging out at the actual end of end game might skew your perspective a bit. We're currently working on Vashj. Having just come from 1.5 nights on the Naga woman, I'm not seeing how anyone in this fight gets to slack off - particularly during Phase 2.

(For perspective, like Horacio's guild (hai2u!), we log about 9 hours a week. So we're running in about Tier 4.5 level gear - hooray for badges!)

The nature of the fight is trotting out the old "what do we do about underperformers?!" angst that we went through in the early Kara days. I'm not saying the fight is more difficult than Gorefiend (I wouldn't know) but it sorta sounds here like you're saying the first "hard" TBC fight happens in BT... and I'd venture to guess that the plethora of 5/6 3/4 guilds out there would disagree.

(Heck, when you're running around in Sunwell gear I bet those bad Gorefiend nights will be a thing of the past for you too; maybe then the "first" coordination fight in TBC will be the Eredar twins or something. =P)

I think it's human nature to trivialize the content we've completed - that's how memory works, after all. The time last week when we blew through X with alts and respecs "just for fun" comes to mind much faster than the time two months ago when we wiped all night learning an encounter. Sure Aran seems like a joke now for us, but my friend whose guild just dinged 70 and is working on Kara is absolutely certain that any mistake by anyone in the group will wipe them.

So I'm don't blame you for that. But I would be careful not to trivialize the feelings people have about how difficult these encounters are and how imperative and impossible the decisions around raiding these encounters also feel. No matter how much the troll tempts you. :)

And @Telani - ad hominems are the refuge of the ignorant and lazy.

Talani
02-12-2008, 01:18 PM
And @Telani - ad hominems are the refuge of the ignorant and lazy.

I made a crack about ciderhelm solving crimes and curing cancer...is that what your commenting on? I can see where you think this would be a personal attack and agreed I was being a bit of a jackass in saying it but I assure you it was in no way an attempt to win our disagreement.

In all honesty I still think he is wrong but even more so I don't care if im right. So ill take the fall and say he is right and end it so it doesn't drag on into something it does not need to be. And if anything your guilty of your own crime by suggesting I am "ignorant and lazy"

For the record I do think highly of cider and everyone else who puts out their two cents on these boards and I do take alot away from them. I do however feel people take it to personally when someone disagrees with them though.

also you spelled my name wrong ^^ but I do agree with you about what you posted before the ad homie thing.
T
he guild I am in now is just starting to get towards the end of kara and they have worked every step of the way to do it.. we don't even use vent! I mean to me the point of even raiding isnt reading a guide ..its jumping in there and doing it. We just downed neatherspite for the first time last time..and seeing all the /rw WHOOO!!'s and /dances I mean..it does make you feel awesome to be apart of that and I feel even luckyer that noone in my raid group does it just for the loot but that feeling to. I have the time to devote to a high end BT guild with strict dkp rules and all the shiney new purple candy but ..what fun is it when you only do it to say your the best? or so people can inspect you in ironforge? thats how I feel high end guilds are like. I could be wrong.. but im still pumped about beating that jerk netherspite.

None of that of course has anything to do with why I think 25 men are harder for the average player then 40 man raids where but it was fun typing it.

Ceravantes
02-12-2008, 01:48 PM
So ebcause I have progressed farther, faster I must only be doing it so people can admire me in town....what sense does that make, do you think that there is not the same, if not a greater, sense of accomplishment when you break into T6, or when you kill illidan, or when you kill any new boss for that matter.

Talani
02-12-2008, 02:03 PM
"thats how I feel high end guilds are like. I could be wrong.."
Again I could be wrong. I run into more assholes with an "look at your gear you must suck" wearing T6 then ones that are willing to help people.

And I never said your one of them. Why not say "Talani I can understand where you would have that veiw but thats not how it is in my guild we do have alot of fun and get that feeling to! I know what your talking about and thats what drives us to be on the cutting edge" I dunno if its true.. I have only done one group with a guild like that and noone was even allowed to talk on vent cept the Raid leader and class officers, I almost got booted out for telling a joke in raid chat. So thats where I came up with the veiw thats why top end guilds might be like that.

For all you know..yours is the only top end guild that isnt like that.

and if the next post I see is "why should people in top end guilds go out of their way to help people" the answer is they don't and that does not make them a bad person or player, but having a snobby tude about it is. For example Once I was in a group for BM with a few members of a certain guild and they happened to do the last 5 portals alot different then I normally do it..I was un clear on it and we wiped. How do you think they handled it? I can assure you I was not with a "what happened do you not understand how we do this? here let me explane again". Actions of guild members reflect on the guild, do you not agree?

Ciderhelm
02-12-2008, 02:42 PM
With all due respect, Cider, I think your position hanging out at the actual end of end game might skew your perspective a bit. We're currently working on Vashj. Having just come from 1.5 nights on the Naga woman, I'm not seeing how anyone in this fight gets to slack off - particularly during Phase 2.

(For perspective, like Horacio's guild (hai2u!), we log about 9 hours a week. So we're running in about Tier 4.5 level gear - hooray for badges!)

The nature of the fight is trotting out the old "what do we do about underperformers?!" angst that we went through in the early Kara days. I'm not saying the fight is more difficult than Gorefiend (I wouldn't know) but it sorta sounds here like you're saying the first "hard" TBC fight happens in BT... and I'd venture to guess that the plethora of 5/6 3/4 guilds out there would disagree.

(Heck, when you're running around in Sunwell gear I bet those bad Gorefiend nights will be a thing of the past for you too; maybe then the "first" coordination fight in TBC will be the Eredar twins or something. =P)

I think it's human nature to trivialize the content we've completed - that's how memory works, after all. The time last week when we blew through X with alts and respecs "just for fun" comes to mind much faster than the time two months ago when we wiped all night learning an encounter. Sure Aran seems like a joke now for us, but my friend whose guild just dinged 70 and is working on Kara is absolutely certain that any mistake by anyone in the group will wipe them.

So I'm don't blame you for that. But I would be careful not to trivialize the feelings people have about how difficult these encounters are and how imperative and impossible the decisions around raiding these encounters also feel. No matter how much the troll tempts you. :)

And @Telani - ad hominems are the refuge of the ignorant and lazy.

To clarify - the charge is not that 40-mans are harder than 25-mans, nor is it that Gorefiend is harder than Vashj. I've said neither. The Gorefiend comment was in regards to whether you can have players in the raid who don't understand the entirety of the encounter they're in; the 40-mans comment was a rebuttal of whether 25-mans are harder by virtue of being 25-mans, not a statement that 40-mans are harder.

On Vashj, you don't wipe if a DPS'er dies, unless they failed to throw their item. You can outgear the lack of DPS.

On Gorefiend, any player controlling a ghost who fails to do their job wipes the raid. On Thaddius, any player who doesn't know how to rotate wipes the raid. On Four Horsemen, any player who doesn't understand their rotation wipes the raid. There's slight flexibility in this -- a single player failure towards the end of the encounter can be recoverable in each case if the raid is well-geared -- but you still can't risk bringing bad players to the encounter.

You've got fights where you can carry people and fights where you can't. Vashj is a fight where you can carry people. So are the vast majority of encounters in the game. The fact is, the fights you can't carry people are more numerous pre-TBC than post.

This isn't a question about whether tanks do more or less in a given raid, or healers. Any encounter which puts enormous responsibility on tanks and healers is a difficult encounter for the tanks and the healers. DPS still aren't pushed anywhere near as hard as they should be, or as they were in Naxx. Raids still carry dead weight, and there's no change in whether they can carry deadweight as a result of 25-mans, which was the argument being made.

Suggesting I'm trivializing content in the past is strange since I'm specifically referencing content from a year and a half ago, no? :D



what fun is it when you only do it to say your the best? or so people can inspect you in ironforge? thats how I feel high end guilds are like.

I raid for personal accomplishment, guild accomplishment, and knowledge. I then take what I learn and implement it into guides and personal advice. I don't think anyone has accused me, or could possibly accuse me, of having a superiority complex over players with less progression because of my raid status.

This is the core of the issue. Bear in mind that the people who built this forum and website are primarily raiders or people who've put in enormous amounts of research time.

When you don't need to make "principled" (as opposed to experienced) comments about subjects, it's best that you don't. The WoW forum attitude of raiders vs. casuals doesn't belong here, from anyone on any end of the progression spectrum. When you have a point to make, the best tool you have is evidence and supporting arguments.



Personally ...do you still play wow? if so why do you put so much effort into being skilled if you don't need any skill..just alot of free time?

I have a personal desire to be a good player. You don't learn that from raiding. Many of the best tanks in this game aren't hardcore raiders; many aren't raiders at all.


Remember, the debate you're arguing is from a gratuitous and unnecessary comment you made. You can make your original point -- that people need to carry their weight in raids -- without saying a word about 40-man raids.

Talani
02-12-2008, 02:59 PM
Remember, the debate you're arguing is from a gratuitous and unnecessary comment you made. You can make your original point -- that people need to carry their weight in raids -- without saying a word about 40-man raids.

Well you know me I do like to open my big mouth but ok here goes.

Would you not agree with me that cutting edge guilds get that way not because of just the time they put in but because they also give 110&#37;? Whatever the modivation may be to do it. You say that you can drag yourself through any boss encounter, this might be true but why suffer wipe after wipe for people who have no drive to be better? Maybe if perhaps it was a more casual thing but even still at one point wouldn't it just get old?
Now say out of 10 people 9 where pulling their weight but 1 person was not. Is it fair that the player slacking off gets loot over someone trying his hardist?

You right I did not need to bring 40 man raids into this but it did however spawn a different discussion about if pre-TBC 40 man raids where more diffacult then TBC 25 man raids, Thats the only reason I kept bringing it up.

We can however forget about it because in my mind thats always going to be a personal thing, and different for everyone. We can all agree that raiding no matter what the number is alot of fun right?

Ciderhelm
02-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Would you not agree with me that cutting edge guilds get that way not because of just the time they put in but because they also give 110&#37;? Whatever the modivation may be to do it. You say that you can drag yourself through any boss encounter, this might be true but why suffer wipe after wipe for people who have no drive to be better? Maybe if perhaps it was a more casual thing but even still at one point wouldn't it just get old?

Now say out of 10 people 9 where pulling their weight but 1 person was not. Is it fair that the player slacking off gets loot over someone trying his hardist?

I alluded to this earlier.

Too many classes with too many unique roles is the reason every guild gets stuck with bad players. Unless you're on an enormous server and are bleeding edge (Nihilum, etc), you're always settling with bad players.

If I could, I would never raid with a Warlock again. In three years, I've only met two who were genuinely good players. If I could, I would never raid with a Hunter again. Rogues and Shamans, I've met plenty of good ones, but plenty of bad ones as well.

Right now, we have 9 different groups of players which attract different personalities. Blizzard has said, "you must pick at least one person from each of the 9 different groups, or you can't raid 25-mans." Nevermind that Mages tend to understand their class better than Warlocks understand theirs. Nevermind that Paladin and Druid healers tend to understand their class more than Shaman healers (Alliance side). Without a stable of players from each class, raiding guilds don't succeed.

I don't want to jump too much into the subject of 40-mans again, but the comparison is a bit cleaner here. With a 40-man raid, you had the same situation with 8 classes. But after you picked your obligatory terrible-player, you could stack any other class with good ones, depending on what recruiting was available. You came out to about the same number of bad players, but had a lot more flexibility in good players. A lot of guilds ran with 8 priests, for instance, but we had run with only 4, compensating for it with great Paladins and Druids.


In your 10 person example, here's the counter. When a guild is in Karazhan, how do they keep their guild together? Normally, the decision is made to not have an A team and a B team, where the better players are all in one group every week. This causes drama. In my case, it was a matter of having no one to run with by virtue of how quickly I was level 70, so we took several poor players on our first clear.

There are external factors, almost all of them having to do with guild stability, that cause you to bring underperformers to otherwise rock-solid raids.

Unsurper
02-12-2008, 04:42 PM
Lol same song and dance, imo it was worse in pre bc with the 40 mans.....we carried a lot od dead' weight to field all 40 slots, then farming and gearing up replacements for people who needed a break....some stayed, some where a waste of breath, or some geared and left.
My opinion, they either have learned their class by 70 or something is wrong, they either pull their own weight or something is wrong, they either want to be there or they don't, obvious eh?
10 mans there is a small amount of lee way, 5 man heroics no error of margin allowed unless you are all geared to the teeth....the people who where carried in pre bc 40 man half asleep tapping a macro can't get away with it any more......
I don't feel obligated to carry anyone's weight, they want to learn cool, they need gear and show the drive then cool.....they half step then screw them.

Finelle
02-12-2008, 09:13 PM
I haven't experienced beyond SSC/TK, or BWL, but how do the fight mechanics of TBC stack up with pre TBC?

Ciderhelm
02-12-2008, 09:25 PM
I haven't experienced beyond SSC/TK, or BWL, but how do the fight mechanics of TBC stack up with pre TBC?

By and large, every encounter from TBC has mechanics pulled from places in pre-TBC. Gorefiend (controlling ghosts) is new. Gruul's shatter is new. Aran's flame wreath is new, as are Netherspite's beams. Using inventory items in combat, such as with Vashj or Kael, is new. There are a few more I don't remember off-hand.

The question is primarily usage. For instance, the first boss in Heroic Mechanaar has the same mechanic as Thaddius from Naxxramas, where players get positive and negative charges. Scale makes all the difference here (Thaddius was brutally difficult because of how many people had to rotate correctly).

Missing now are Heigan's dance, Gothikk's kill-respawn balancing act, Four Horsemen's marks. The biggest thing missing is a major LOS-based fight, unless I'm forgetting one -- old world had Firemaw, Chromaggus, Razuvious, Sapphiron.

Enrage timers are much more forgiving in TBC as well. TBC's enrage timers are more Grobbulus than Patchwerk (Grobb was one of the easiest encounters pre-TBC; he followed Patchwerk, one of the hardest).

Mechanics are all pretty similar, which isn't so much of a fault of TBC as a reality that there's only so many unique things that can occur. It's all about how they're combined. Some fights in TBC combine them exceptionally well, just as some fights pre-TBC did.

Worldie
02-12-2008, 09:29 PM
Well depends, the enrage timers in SSC/TK aren't exactly forgiving for a unprepared raid, they are there to test the DPS.

Pre tbc you could go for half of the bosses with 4 tanks and 36 healers and kill them anyway, Naxx started to change this with Patchwerk and such. iirc Twin Emp had enrage timer also, can't remember, too much time has passed.

Ciderhelm
02-12-2008, 09:34 PM
Pre tbc you could go for half of the bosses with 4 tanks and 36 healers and kill them anyway, Naxx started to change this with Patchwerk and such. iirc Twin Emp had enrage timer also, can't remember, too much time has passed.

Yes, pre-TBC many bosses had no enrage timers. Many that did enrage did so at a set percentage of health instead of on a timer.

Twin Emps had an enrage timer that was well tuned. If you were new to the encounter you needed consumables to beat the timer.

Patchwerk was probably the best tuned that's been in the game, simply because the enrage timer was the encounter as far as DPS was concerned. Thaddius was similarly well tuned.

Rak
02-13-2008, 03:18 AM
Gorefiend's ghost mechanic, while clearly very different, feels a bit inspired by Razuvious to me. Mind Controlling the adds to tank the boss was very fun and very scary.

Worldie
02-13-2008, 05:42 AM
Heh, i remind that one of our priests was the designed sacrificed victim since was the one to "MC pull" and thus always died at the first shout :)
(we ran very heavy on priests, 7-8 usually)

Clifford
02-27-2008, 02:00 PM
There are external factors, almost all of them having to do with guild stability, that cause you to bring underperformers to otherwise rock-solid raids.
This is very true. What I have made clear to my guild (and is generally accepted) is that I have to take the top players for progression evenings, whilst there is more rotation on farm evenings.

CyCy
07-12-2008, 10:46 AM
I don't think it's mean or hateful to leave less dedicated players behind. I hit 70 with my hunter shortly after the arenas started. I am a casual player I admit my gear sucks. I do however enjoy playing instances so have become a well skilled tank and am able to Tank at 58 with 70's in the grp and able to hold aggro.

There truly is 3 versions of WOW running simultaneously together. Raiders, Arenas, and PVE questing four if you count traditional PVP BG's. People must find there nitch and learn to love the game there dedication allows them to enjoy. Whereas my 70 sucks in Kara and arenas it's a great gold farmer and quest helper toon for other guildies who help me level my alts and quest with.

Just keep in mind although someone doesnt have all tier 6 epics or season 4 gear doesnt make them newbs or uneducated about the game. However if they truly want to improve themselves guild mates should be willing to carry the weight til they progress as long as they are making the committment. If they simply want to be tagalongs when it's conveinent for them restrictions are not unreasonable i.e. earn full pvp epics first.

WOW adding lvls to 80 w/ TLK is actually a moot point the desparity in abilities gained by better gear is already seperating 70's like a lvl 50 compared to a lvl 60 in a duel.

Sorry for rambling but don't ever feel bad for leaving someone behind. If you are someone who has been left behind and are reading this you are at least taking the initiative to improve yourself.

Krashtork
07-15-2008, 01:42 PM
Drop the scrubs. Blizzard has been absolutely rabid about giving everyone cakewalk methods to get full epics. This game has become EXTREMELY easy when it comes to getting gear. With heroics, badges, pvp, reputation rewards, craftables, and BoE AH epics NO ONE has any excuse to not be fully epicced in a very short period of time. If they can't even manage getting epiced out with Blizzard hurling boat loads of easy epics at them, they simply don't belong in any raiding situation.

Manginae
07-31-2008, 12:53 PM
I guess im lucky enough to be in a guild that (as much as i hated it) wouldnt let you raid until you met thier standards
12+ health
490 def rating
12+armour
45% avoidance
And you know i went with some other guilds kara rnus as an OT and i did better, but to be honest the main thing my guild cares about is gear pulling people its not fair to other more experinced raiders to have someone not doin 100% to keep up with the raid. I did heriocs for about two weeks and got sun eater ect. Then i felt confident to do a full run with another guild and we cleared it in 4 hours, they explained some of the pulls. But i am i WoW nub and the only reason i know what im doin is i ask for help and my other guild mates give it to me. I talkked to our warrior class leader and he told me the best ways to keep threat ect. I also had help with getting the correct mods for me. So i would say do a slower run for the less expeirieced players and a faster run for experieced one and make sure they know theyr class cause most people dont when they start out.