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Xav
02-01-2008, 07:23 PM
Generating "the threat"
Warriors

Sections
1 - Keybindings
2 - UI
3 - Gear
4 - Rotation
5 - Buffs
6 - Communication
7 - Analyzing

Introduction

This overview is meant to help the tank understand how to maximize their threat potential. This has multiple real uses, and here are some examples.

Understanding how to generate the highest threat possible will allow you to make better gear decisions and knowing how it will impact your threat. If you can reduce the damage you take, making it easier on your healers, while still retaining high threat generation, you're giving a nice boost to your purpose as a tank.

Having a very solid threat generation playstyle, and being able to put out far more threat than may be needed for your raid's DPS, will let you remain in competitive levels of threat generation in lesser gear - IE Resistance gear. If you lose a ton of your "key" tanking stats and important things like Hit, Expertise, Block Value, and so forth in a massively different gearset, you want to know how to utilize the stuff you do have, to its fullest. This is the essential concept of understanding HOW and WHY you do things, and not just relying on your gear to do it for you. (Think akin to Thunderfury 1.0 - it generated obscene levels of AOE threat without any user interaction - you want to know how to do well without relying on gear)

Being able to put out burst, or high threat repeatedly will let your raid typically raise its DPS. The sooner they can pop cooldowns, so they get to use them perhaps multiple times in a fight, increasing your raid's DPS further. You don't ever want to have your DPS to consistently hold back on damage output due to your threat. Now and then, or on certain fights, or just general boss streakiness is okay, but if it's a regular occurance where people are pulling aggro, or just not able to do their full damage potential, you want to improve your threat generation.

Ultimately knowing how to generate the maximum threat possible should ease your raid all around, due to things dying faster, less damage being taken due to duration, leading to fewer heals required.

The rest of this information assumes a very standard tanking spec utilizing 3/3 improved sunder, 3/3 focused rage, and 3/3 shield mastery. A warrior wishing to maximize their threat is only going to be able to do so as a deep Protection spec, picking up Devastate and Shield Slam. At that point, you've got the basics, and the rest of the rage-reduction talents wont alter the general methodology needed to maximize your threat. It's less about specific math and more about how, why, and when you do things.

Section 1 - Keybindings

This is important, and something that will likely be at the center of someone's playing if they're having issues in regards to threat generation.

It is highly advantageous to have all of your abilities keybinded, at least the ones you hit frequently. More so, the abilities that you by far use the most, need to be in the easiest to push places possible.

These keybinding suggestions/ideas assume the player is using two hands to play, one on the mouse at all times, and one on the keyboard at all times. Generally, one hand is around the left side of the keyboard since it has the highest concentration of buttons/functionality.

Easy to hit buttons for one hand will be all of those that you don't have to stretch your hand around to hit - one example would be all of the keys in the line from the ~ to the number 6 or possibly 7 depending on your reach. Then down that part of the keyboard, so you have access to everything from Q to T(Y), A to G(H), Z to B, etc.

As an example of common type keybindings, someone may use the following: 1 Taunt, 2 Devastate, 3 Heroic Strike, 4 Shield Slam, 5 Shield Block, 6 Revenge. Many variations to that of course, it's semi popular to bind Heroic Strike to any of the other keys in that area, or perhaps even to a button on the mouse (mousewheel, thumb buttons and so forth).

A basic keybinding setup like that for your main abilities will let you hit most of the abilities in their typical order, in succession, going from one side of the keyboard to the other. Or, one of your fingers will be on a certain key hitting it repeatedly while the rest of your hand rotates down the keys. It's generally a repetitive, fast motion that you're going to be doing a lot, so you want to minimize having to move your hand all over the keyboard if your most frequently pushed tanking keys aren't in the same area.

Now, that's typical enough. But then there comes the abilities you hit a little less often. You want those keybinded too. Having some of your abilities that you hit often, but not button-mash often, as a click, will cause you to have to take your mouse hand, which is possibly busy moving your character around (Another assumption, that you use mouselook/mouse to turn, and don't use the keys to turn). If you're not able to navigate your character smoothly while using certain abilities, that will be a large detriment to your playing ability, in a variety of situations.

So, such abilities that are often used but not mashed are things like Bloodrage, Stance changes, Mocking Blow, Challenging Shout, Berserker Rage, Fear, Conc blow, Thunder Clap, and so forth. These should also all be in an easy to hit location without moving your hand. Examples might be having your stances as the F-keys, F1, F2, F3, which is directly above the number keys, so stance changing is extremely fast to do as you hardly have to move your hands at all to press them. Other very-convenient keys are R, T, G, H, Y, and so forth. Those would be ideal spots to keybind (don't forget about Ctrl and Alt modifiers for presses too, you have more space than you may think). You want to be able to do an AOE fear or Challenging Shout, or stun, while quickly getting back to, or continuing, your threat rotation. It's even more important that these be keybinded, because these are generally the type of abilities you may be using while running around - if you're running after a mob to Mocking Blow it, you don't want to have to be keyboard-turning while you reach across your screen to click the button with your mouse. You want to mouseturn right on its ass and hit the hotkey without impairing your movement.

That same reason applies to the fact that you want your threat abilities to be easily reachable and continuously hit whilst doing other functions on the keyboard - being able to queue Heroic while using your global to use some other ability is of course essential.

Keybinds will massively differ from player to player, but the basic concept is the same: Minimize movement needed for the hands, and keep your mousehand always on mouselook.

Section 2 - User Interface

This is another thing that will either hamper your ability to play, or bolster it.

As for how it affects threat, the main things you should strive for in your UI is a clear, convenient location for your threat meter, and a good monitor of your ability cooldowns. I suggest having whatever mod to monitor your cooldowns, near the part of the screen where your eyes are most of the time, generally, the middle. There's a ton of mods that do it, but you just want to be able see the cooldowns on abilities like Bloodrage, Berserker Rage, and all of your typical rotation abilities, that way you know precisely when they come up. CooldownTimers2 is fairly easy to use and set up.

http://www.tankspot.com/photoplog/images/2749/2_uicom1.jpg

That is my current UI, and you can see how I have my Omen right next to my unit frame/target's unit frame, so that when I'm watching the boss or mob's frame for HP, debuffs, buffs, or commonly their casting bar, I can also see how the threat situation is, with hardly a glance. I also have my cooldown mod near the middle of my screen. My actual ability bar is redundant and only there for, uh, "calibration" would be the best way to put it.

Try to reduce unneeded clutter in your UI so you have less distractions, and emphasize the things of most importance for threat maximizing - your ability cooldowns, your threat meter, and your visual-focal-point capturing as much of the information as you can.

Section 3 - Gear

Here's a big one. There's a variety of stats that will improve your threat generation capabilities, in order of priority/most benefit (with the ease of acquisition in conjunction with the rest of the stats) they are Expertise, Hit Rating, Block Value, Armor Penetration, Critical Rating

The Zul'Aman patch introduced Expertise, which was the biggest buff tanking classes received in a while.
The expertise pieces are thankfully also not too hard to acquire, for the most part.

Band of Determination from Reg. Magister's Terrace
Nightstrike from Reg. Magister's Terrace
Brooch of Deftness from badges
Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx from badges
Sunguard Legplates from badges
Girdle of the Fearless from badges
The Brutalizer from Supremus in BT, or the Mallet of the Tides from The Lurker Below in SSC
Gauntlets of Enforcement from Teron Gorefiend in BT
Shapeshifter's Signet from Lower City Exalted
Executioner enchant on weapon (threat weapon, if you don't have an extra weapon for threat, stick with Mongoose)

There's much more - including a ton of the new Sunwell stuff.

Reminder, Humans want to use Mallet as their ideal threat weapon due to the Mace/Sword racial, and Orcs want to use Brutalizer as their ideal threat weapon, due to their Axe racial. For 5 mans and anything that doesn't have boss-level mobs (73, or ??), the hit/expertise cap is about 6% each. Thus, you don't need nearly as much. for 25 mans and anything with 73's the hit cap is 9% and the expertise (parry) cap is about 15%, so there's a lot more room there.

All but the gloves should be obtainable by nearly everyone, and if the gloves just aren't obtainable by you, utilizing the rest of the choices will provide you with more than ample threat generation for the level of content you're on.

Using gear that gives you a lot of avoidance will cause your rage gain to be spiky, and thus, your threat generation wont be constant, and likely will suffer. Typically equipping threat-esque pieces lowers your avoidance, so you accomplish two things by changing each piece of gear. (More threat stats, less avoidance stats). You can do this in other ways without actually changing to threat pieces, by shifting from items that are heavier in avoidance, to items that have perhaps just solid armor on them (so you take less damage, but still gain rage, and so forth).

You can still achieve great threat with a setup that includes little to no gear specifically for generating threat, but it's more random. You can get pretty large streaks of dodged/parried/missed attacks, or you'll go on a very long spree of avoided hits, and thus have bad rage.

Strike a balance for your threat suit that you like and feel safe with. You don't want to go to extremes that cause you to take so much more damage that you might die, or needlessly stress the healers. My threat suits retain acceptable and safe levels of actual "tank" stats.


Section 4 - Rotation

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Oh, right, yeah. This is the part where you hit your buttons really fast in the proper way to keep the mob hitting you.
Your basic rotation is Shield Slam/Revenge/Devastate/Devastate
You won't always be able to do that, because of rage. When rage dwindles, focus on never missing a Revenge, otherwise Shield Slam. That's when it'll be Revenge/Shield Slam/Devastate...

Generally the inquiries about threat regard how to MAXIMIZE your threat once you're already getting hit enough, though, and there's a certain way to do that.

Keep your 4-ability rotation constant, and don't miss a beat. SS/Rev/Dev/Dev - watch your Rage bar very closely. Whenever your threat is hovering at ~45+, you can mash your Heroic Strike key. Often your rage gain is predictable enough for you to safely mash your Heroic key while you keep doing your rotation. You must hit multiple keys at the same time. From that first sampling of button-spam, it should be pretty clear what "3" would be the keybind of (Heroic Strike!).

On a boss that gives you excessive rage and it's just an all-out effort from you, you should be making quite a racket with your keyboard. There's really no other effective way to do it, you have to hit your buttons fast, you can't miss a GCD, and you want every single swing you make to be a Heroic Strike, so you don't want regular melee swings slipping by. (Given you have the rage to support that..)

Now, the important bit.
When your rage DOES start to drop off, you have to notice IMMEDIATELY. That's why watching your rage bar is important. If it drops sub 30, STOP MASHING HEROIC. If you know you have one currently queued, and you're trying to min/max, I hope your reaction time/ping is quick enough to hit escape and cancel that queue. When the rage drops off you completely cut heroic from your cycle and continue the standard SS/Rev/Dev/Dev until you start hitting 40+ rage again. Heroic Strike is solely a rage dump, and you are only using it to BURN OFF EXTRA RAGE.

I have to repeat that. HEROIC STRIKE IS A RAGE DUMP. Only use it to burn off extra rage. Do NOT just mash your tanking keys, including Heroic Strike, and cause yourself to drain your rage away with Heroics before you can even complete the standard ability rotation. Heroic has the worst threat per rage of any of the abilities by far, so every time you use it in a low-rage situation, you're seriously hurting your threat output.

As for shield block, its usage depends on the boss. If the boss can crush and you need high threat, hit your SB on cooldown, and just hope your avoidance isn't so high that your rage gain is really starved. You'll be prioritizing Shield Block over a Heroic Strike every now and then. However if a crush from the boss isn't life threatening and you're in good shape to take a max of one, you can let SB slip off. (Example: You're in the middle of a boss fight and at full HP, say 20k, and a crush from the boss is for 9k. If you let SB drop off and take a crush, you can then immediately use that rage to put SB back up, and have enough HP to survive a regular blocked melee hit, and hopefully by then heals will have come in to keep you in healthy shape)

If the boss can crush and threat isn't too important, it probably hits hard. Prioritize Shield Block above all else and keep to your standard cycle, only using Heroic if you get a high excess of rage (60+).

If rage gain is horrible, like really bad (You can't hit the boss, it can't hit you), just Revenge on cooldown. That might be the only thing you have rage for. Revenge has the highest threat per rage of anything, so you want to use it as much as possible. Streaks like this shouldn't last too long, so just be ready to smoothly transition back to a regular rotation.

Throw in other things in your rotation, Bloodrage on cooldown is generally a smart thing to do. (Just don't use it at a time where the rage it instantly grants would be wasted...) You can shield block + switch to zerker stance and put on Berserker Rage, the shield block is so you aren't crushed in Berserker for like 20k. If you've got clicky threat-esque trinkets, don't forget to use them at ideal times.

This might be a good place to mention tanking macros.
I am highly against tanking macros, all except one:

#show Shield Slam
/cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation
/cancelaura Blessing of Salvation
/use Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600
/use Glyph of Deflection
/cast Shield Slam(Rank 6)

That should be obvious. It's my Shield Slam hotkey, all it does is activate any block trinket(s) I have on when I hit shield slam, which lets me squeeze in 4 shield slams with the bonus value with ease, while simultaneously making sure I'm never tanking with a goddamn Salv some terrible paladin gave me.

Using any combo-macro, or one-button-tank macro will flat out make you a bad tank. I could rant on this a lot, but you NEED precise micromanagement of your abilities if you want to get the most out of your rage. There's just too many small situations that will arise where a macro will NOT make the right decision. Saying "eh, it works good enough with the castrandom" isn't the right attitude. If you're going to settle for "eh, good enough", why are you bothering to read a forum/website specializing in bettering the player?

If you've got any such tank macros, I promise you it'll do you good in the long term by removing them, even if it's something "harmless" you might think as combo Shield Block + Revenge macro. I could list a lot of things off the top of my head where it's a terrible idea to use that.

Section 5 - Buffs

Pretty simple stuff here. If you want to maximize your threat, you'd have a Shaman in your group, Battle Shout (either your own, or an offtank's, or a dps warrior's), a Feral Druid for LoTP, or some combination of the above.

LotP and Windfury totem provide a very similar threat gain - I compared multiple logs of me having one or the other, but not both, and the difference wasn't really discernable (1300+ tps for both).

Having your resto shamans Earth Shield you will give you a nice TPS gain, as well as a nice survivability boost. This should be standard for one of your shamans.

Prayer of Mending will give you threat as well, but isn't nearly as efficient, useful, or logical as Earth Shield.

Elixir of Major Agility is a nice threat boost, while providing some avoidance as well.

If you aren't getting Windfury, you can use a sharpening/weight stone on your weapon for a nice boost.

Section 6 - Communication

Talk to your raid. If you just got a huge threat boost at the start of the fight, (say you crit like 8 things in a row), tell your raid that they can go hard. "I crit everything, you can go all out"

Similarly, tell your raid if you've gotten a bad streak. Start of a pull, can't land anything, "Missed all my shit, hold off for a bit". If some smartass replies with something like "LOL GET MORE HIT NOOB", tell them you just used "missed" as a broad term to explain that you didn't land anything, since it's more succinct. Preferably after the fight's over. You'll probably hear that a lot.

You want your raid to know whenever your threat output differs from the norm in a way that could aid or harm them. Threat-wipe, phase change, you run up and can't land anything decent, or just saw a big shadowbolt crit the boss for 50k, you may want to tell that lock to soulshatter, or get a BOP, and for a hunter to MD you.

Not necessarily having bad luck landing things, but just have no rage, and DPS threat is right behind you? Tell them that, too. "Have no rage, boss can't hit me, slow dps please". Suddenly get flurried and have a nice full red rage bar? "Ok go"

It's simple stuff like that which will help clue people in, since it's hard for the raid to know when you're just losing the RNG (Random Number Generator)

Section 7 - Analyzing

Alright, so you've tanked some things, and gotten a few WWS logs. Now you want to see how you're doing. First off, find your own tank logs, and then click on the boss fight, and then finally your own name, to see your ability usage/activy for that specific boss fight. (You want to make sure it's a boss, otherwise you're going to see weird stuff due to trash downtime and such).

Once you have your page open, hit the "Columns" button near the top of the ability usage, and check the following boxes, under the "NB" section: "Crits" "All Miss". If you want, you can also check the box for Miss, Dodge, and Parry, to further understand where your biggest loss of threat is from.

Now, add up the total number of Shield Slams, Devastates, and Revenges. Just add the number of Hits, the number of Crits, and the number of "All Miss" (Crits are not included in the "hits" column!) Due to non-premium WWS reports expiring after 15 days, I'm going to just paste the example I will use here, I'll have links too but they will become inactive, I can keep uploading my log but for the rest you just have to use your own example. Adding up those numbers gives you the total number of times you attempted to use that ability, which is what we're looking for here.

Here's a WWS log of mine, of Gorefiend (any fight will work, this is just for the example) WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/k34un5scxtzvm?s=2173-2329&a=4)

The ability usage of mine is:

23 Shield Slams
23 Revenges
44 Devastates


The fight duration was 157 seconds.

How does this help us? Well, we all know the cooldown on these abilities, and the standard cycle used: Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate. While revenge has a shorter cooldown, it's not efficient to wait for it and spam it like that, which is why we do that typical 4-ability rotation. This puts each of Revenge and Shield Slam on a 6-second cooldown before they will be used again. In a typical boss fight, you have enough rage to always do that rotation - the extra rage/threat comes from simply adding Heroic Strike to it.

With a fight duration of 157 seconds, you can divide it by 6, to get the approximate ideal number of shield slams/revenges you could use in that time. 157/6 gives us 26. Now, you have to take into consideration human error and lag, the biggest being lag. As perfect as we try to be, squeezing all 4 abilities in at exactly 6 seconds is almost impossible, so you're going to lose some. So, 26 is "perfect", and this example log has 23 of both shield slam and revenge. Since the number is the same (23), we can derive a few more things:

Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate until the boss dies causes you to create the same number of Shield Slams as you have Revenges, if you prioritize properly. (that IS the most efficient order). The number can be off slightly - by one - if the boss dies beore you can hit your next ability. (Example, new rotation, Shield Slam - Boss death, so you never hit that revenge to equalize you again). Thus, if your SS/Revenge numbers are equal, you know you kept to a very very strict rotation and probably could not have done any better.

The next ability to look at is Devastate. Since you're using Devastate twice as often as SS/Rev (ideally), it's simply half the "cooldown" of those - so 3 seconds. 157/3 = 52 devastates. My example log had 44 Devastates. Now, this is a bigger variance, but again you have to take into consideration the lag factor. Now, it's still a "little" off - but this is most likely a good thing, rather than bad. This is because if your rage is ever very, very starved for a period, the first ability you drop off (Besides heroic strike - you stop heroic striking as soon as rage slows!) is Devastate. Both Shield Slam and Revenge are more TPR than Devastate. So, if you're doing a SS/Rev/Dev/Dev cycle and suddenly rage dries up, you will probably drop to a SS/Rev/Dev cycle, or even worse, SS/Rev. That's very rare though - so the more likely bit is simply dropping 1 devastate now and then to ensure you don't miss a SS/Revenge.

In a "perfect world" scenario assuming rage is always plenty enough to not miss any ability usage, you'd want to see 2x the number of Devastates used as SS/Revenges used - My log should have been 46, I had 44, so sacrificing Devastate for SS due to no rage is probably indeed what happened.

So, now you saw what a "good" log looks like, very close to the ideal, now you want to compare it to your own to see where you have room for improvement.

Another example log, can't WWS link it since it's expired, but you can simply choose anything, has the following:

37 Shield Slams
47 Revenges
68 Devastates

The fight duration was 315 seconds.

SS/Rev ideal number would be 315/6 or 52, Devastate ideal would be double that, for 104. Knocking that down to realistic areas due to lag and such would give you ~47 Rev/SS and 92~ Devastates. Right away you can see that this log's ability usage is all over the place. There isn't a close to matching number of Shield Slams and Revenges, and there's not nearly enough devastates that there should be. You can derive from this that this person was ensuring they hit Revenge on cooldown every time, but then prioritized Devastate over Shield Slam, and then didn't use the extra rage to finish fleshing out their rotation with more devastates. This log "should" look like 47 SS, 47 Rev (this is on-target), 92~ devastates.

Taking all of the above into consideration, you can see once doing this how you can figure out if you need to tighten up your ability usage, which is simply strictly hitting the same buttons in a row, and knowing when to drop off devastate to keep SS/Rev always on cooldown. Dropping Heroic Strike instantly when it can start to threaten rage should become standard as you get more interested in improving your threat.

Finally, you can look at your number of parried attacks, or missed attacks, to see how that's hurting your threat. If you're still getting lots of misses, capping hit will help you out, and if you're getting tons of parries, more expertise will help you out. But this is standard stuff, you can still see how your rotation is doing even without threat gear.



Well that's all for now, I'll probably amend this several times, but I didn't really see any guide or pointer-list of this type on these forums, and the recent Gorefiend log thread spawned some discussions. Hopefully this will help out those having troubles or lots of questions about threat generation.

Invisniper
02-02-2008, 12:41 AM
Love it!

gyre
02-02-2008, 02:59 AM
Excellent stuff. Thanks Xav.

[Edit]
If you think it's relevant, perhaps you could list the necessary talents that help with threat as a MT etc. As in whether improved heroic strike is necessary and so on.

-- gyre --

Ekarderif
02-02-2008, 09:51 AM
I only have two things to add:


Devastate has better threat per rage than shield slam. In situations where you are often rage starved, I would drop shield slam temporarily instead of devastate.
Every global cooldown should be spammed with something. At the rare moments where an avoidance streak leaves you with only 7 or 8 rage and Revenge is still on cooldown, the best action is to shield bash, not attempt to wait for additional rage. This of course does not apply to situations when an interrupt is necessary.

Orokosaki
02-02-2008, 11:29 AM
I only have two things to add:


Devastate has better threat per rage than shield slam. In situations where you are often rage starved, I would drop shield slam temporarily instead of devastate.


This is actually not true. Once you factor in the difference in damage between the two abilities shield slam comes out as slightly more TPR, even after the improvements to devastate. If I've mathed it out correctly, devastate is only more TPR for the first 5 applications since you receive the threat from the sunder armor debuff in addition to the devastate base threat AND the devastate damage.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong on that. I haven't taken the time to threat theorycraft since right after 2.3 hit.

Ekarderif
02-02-2008, 12:06 PM
I just did some math and yeah you are right. I must have confused the numbers... :o

Xav
02-02-2008, 12:20 PM
Indeed, situations where Devastate may be higher TPR is if your shield slams are rather weak, ie, no 4-piece bonus, and very little block value, whereas your devastate are very high (using a slow weapon). Something like that might apply to a prot warrior building secondary on something, for example Void Reaver. You should use a really slow hard hitting 1 hander, and under the right conditions that may be better to spam over Shield Slam, and only use Shield Slam with extra rage.

My post generally deals with maximizing your threat while main tanking, and the logic for generating high threat can be applied to offtanking or other roles.

I edited some minor things and added an Introduction.

Fame
02-02-2008, 12:57 PM
Xav did you test out the 4pc? Because I know when I first got it, it was 10% of the base (increasing the bottom and top end of the tooltip by 10% 420 turned into 462 and likewise for the top) I since I haven't touched my Warrior in some time, they might have changed that 'bug' but if its still there, then I would go with Faceplate of the Impenetrable just for the extra bit of stam. As far as shields go, I think using Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart will cover your hit needs so you can socket other parts of your set (boots for example) with stam gems. Every single boss has a different threshold you would have to cover in terms of survivability and threat does not need to be any higher then that of the next highest persons dps cap. I'm wholeheartedly against using dps items to increase one owns threat since i belive you have all the tools available to you to reach high TPS, however if you are struggeling with threat a simple solution would be to pick up Dragonspine Trophy instead of the pocketwatch for example.

Xav
02-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Yeah I pretty much addressed everything you wrote there in the post, ass ;)

The 4-piece bonus applies to overall damage, not just the tooltip. I tested it thoroughly, as well as asked someone else about it before testing.

Elitist Jerks - View Single Post - The Protection Warrior (http://elitistjerks.com/583551-post395.html)

Btw, as I also wrote above, I don't have kaz'rogal's shield!

As for using DPS items to increase threat, and then suggesting DST, that's completely unrealistic for the vast majority of "tanks". Most people wont have DST, and will never get a DST, or any similar trinket, due to low drop rate, and high demand/use on actual DPS classes. That's why I suggest, if anything, using easy-to-get DPS pieces, and the only piece I actually "use" is the PvP cloak, which is phenomenal. The rest is easily obtained via extra gear with different sockets/enchants.

Fame
02-02-2008, 02:50 PM
I was at work man, you cant possibly expect me to read every detail of the post, i mearly suggested things upon seeing the glimps of the post. And i took your CTPorfile as a guide to ideal threat set not what you had. As far s DPS items being given to tanks, thats all based on DKP and how much that guild values their tank >.<

Xav
02-02-2008, 03:20 PM
Nah, a tank taking something that would clearly benefit a dps more and that they'd use fulltime is fail, if the tank wouldn't use it fulltime!

Ariedan
02-08-2008, 10:31 PM
This. Thread. Is. Awesome.

Thanks for making a thread. I know there were a few things I didn't realize, and I'm sure it'll help countless tanks become TPS rockstars.

Xav
02-18-2008, 10:16 AM
Added a section about analyzing your threat and tanking rotation from WWS logs, this will help out people who want to know where they can improve, and how.

Nilya
02-19-2008, 12:42 AM
This guide is really good. I read a lot of parts where I thought "this always seems to work but I wouldn't think to put it into words myself." The part about WWS was very good, I will have to look over my logs and see what I can do to improve in the future.

Shortypop
02-19-2008, 01:25 AM
Just a note:

"Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate until the boss dies causes you to create the same number of Shield Slams as you have Devastates, if you prioritize properly. (that IS the most efficient order)."

The bolded devestates should be revenges :)

Xav
02-19-2008, 03:42 PM
Whoops, thanks for catching that. Figures I'd make a few typos I didn't catch after typing the same few words repeatedly!

Taowlie
02-21-2008, 09:14 AM
Xav, this is a really great guide for people like me.

I usually dont get any group buffs and am always ahead of the DPSers on threat. I do have one question though.

How do you start a boss fight? Ive been thinking about this lately and I usually start off with a shield block + revenge, as I dont want to take crushes. I dont really know if this is the best way, any advice?

Dunmail
02-21-2008, 09:37 AM
I tend to worry more about threat than crushes initially, as that's an area I could do with improving slightly. I'd rather pop BR, SS, and get a devastate/Revenge in first. It's a great list as I noticed I was under using revenge and being a bit lazy with devastate. Remapping the keys added a good 50-80 TPS, but I'd be alot happier if I was continually churning out 700-800 TPS, and not having dips into the 600's.

It sounds a bit cowboyish but having run some heroics & KZ with undergeared characters, and some suicidal dps I've had to take another look at what I'm doing. When starting a fight I assume the healers are awake, and more importantly they know I'm gonna get a couple of smacks initially and are acting accordingly, so I can get on with my job and also drop onto a sensible rotation asap and make their life a bit easier. I've started to reduce out stam rings & trinkets and use more haha dps ones, unless it is a boss or a healer, or myself thats struggling.
I guess the other key thing for me is that with heroics/kz my gear is developed to a point where I can take the hits until they catch up. The real benefit to that is more in terms of confidence in my kit and with the healers. When I can finally break my bad habits (moron use keyboard and not the fecking mouse!) I hope to be a better player & less likely to cause the occasional panic attack..

Bigstik
02-21-2008, 11:44 AM
I've found that FT+GoA totems are the same threat yield (within 15 TPS in my testing) as WF alone. This obviously shows that FT is largely inferior to WF, but if you request these totems instead of WF, your enhancement shaman will starting arguing over who gets to be in the tank group, as WF totem is useless to them.

My findings have otherwise been consistent with yours, as I've found roughly a 150 to 200 TPS boost from WF, FT+GoA, or ILotP.

Also, great guide!

Xav
02-21-2008, 03:46 PM
The issue with FT+GoA is you aren't gaining any additional rage outside of white crits from them, whereas Windfury will consistently give you extra rage to work with.

As for starting pulls, it depends on the boss. On Teron, since he can crush, start with shield block. I always do, just because I don't want to be crushed for a ton off the bat when people aren't even done moving into position yet. Then I just revenge after, and continue from there.

Bigstik
02-22-2008, 09:25 AM
Unless you're HSing indiscriminately, keeping buffs and debuffs like shield block and TC up isn't a problem with the rage granted during a boss fight. Also, the additional dodge and AC is a great help.

Negiva
02-24-2008, 02:27 AM
Hey, nice guide. Just a question though that I hope you can help with.

Your WWS log is gone now, however, I noticed you had significantly higher hits on just about every ability compared to mine. Check out mine, it's about the same duration as the original WWS you linked for yours...

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/w3j2rojtc6btk?s=7178-7330)

We MD teron to the doorway, so I lose about one SS/revenge and 1-2ish devastates there. For the most part, we had just about the same number on every ability. I think I did everything near perfect. I had a resto shaman for WF and used one haste potion (could have used a second but I was being cheap =P). The thing I don't understand is how all your abilities are hitting for a lot more than mine. Your HS was hitting for just about double of mine, your SS crits were about 500-600 more, and so on. I checked your buffs and the only difference I could tell was that you had a feral druid.

Could you show me your gear choice for that WWS you linked (unless the link you posted from ctprofiles is the one?) and what buffs you might have had that affected it? Thanks. I want to increase my threat more =(

Oh and one last thing. My shaman was swapped into one of the other groups to give them heroism, so I didn't have it. I doubt that's the reason my TPS is about 300 lower than yours though. HALP!

Mimas
03-06-2008, 09:07 PM
Im having a hellava time with this...ha! But hell I'm an old guy...I just can't seem to raise my TPS over 700. And yet I read threads where they're talking about 1500+ HOW IN THE HELL (excuse my french) is that possible?

I've read XAV's thread over and over and actually got some good stuff...I realized I had some buttons reversed. I was SS/devastate x2/and then Revenge...rinse and repeat.
But although I made some corrections...I still can't seem to raise that Treat.

I really really really want to bring that up LARGE...
My current stats
Def = 521
Dodgev= 24.75%
Parry = 18.07%
Block = 19.00%

Anyway I sure would like to know how you raise the TPS at least up to 1200...please please you young bucks have a large advantage over us old farts who in our day played PONG and thought we rocked the world....hahaha

Nicki
03-06-2008, 09:53 PM
equip hit/expertise and block value gear.

Xav
03-07-2008, 12:25 AM
Extremely hard to figure out what the issue is without any real info given, Mimas.

The best suggestion I can give currently is to re-read the 'guide' and make sure you're using a proper gearset that lends itself to generating better threat, and to make sure you're keeping a tight ability rotation while using heroic strike to burn off excess rage.

Remember, you can queue up heroic strike to burn off excess rage whilst simultaneously keeping to your SS-Rev-Dev-Dev rotation, simply by hitting more than one key at a time ... tanking is a very button-mashy role, just make sure you're hitting the buttons correctly!


Edit: Since this seems to be your character; The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Arathor&n=Mimas)

A few things right off the bat that will help your threat:

Get the Badge neck (Expertise+Hit)
Get the badge bracers (Expertise)
Get a ranged weapon with hit on it (or socket your current one for hit, there's many options)
Get the badge gloves and put 2&#37; threat on them
Run heroic mana tombs for Crystal Band of Valor - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27822)
Get an extra tank weapon and put executioner on it - you may want to put Mongoose on Sun Eater from Mechanar and put Executioner on your KD.
Create a macro or something that uses your Autoblocker trinket every time the cooldown is up, the simplest way to do this would be to make your shield slam activate your trinket in the same macro. If you're doing this already, cool.

That stuff can be your "threat suit" - then stick to a solid, disciplined rotation and don't let your rage get higher than 50, use heroics, and you should easily get at least 1000 tps in your gear level.

Xav
03-07-2008, 12:48 AM
Hey, nice guide. Just a question though that I hope you can help with.

Your WWS log is gone now, however, I noticed you had significantly higher hits on just about every ability compared to mine. Check out mine, it's about the same duration as the original WWS you linked for yours...

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/w3j2rojtc6btk?s=7178-7330)

We MD teron to the doorway, so I lose about one SS/revenge and 1-2ish devastates there. For the most part, we had just about the same number on every ability. I think I did everything near perfect. I had a resto shaman for WF and used one haste potion (could have used a second but I was being cheap =P). The thing I don't understand is how all your abilities are hitting for a lot more than mine. Your HS was hitting for just about double of mine, your SS crits were about 500-600 more, and so on. I checked your buffs and the only difference I could tell was that you had a feral druid.

Could you show me your gear choice for that WWS you linked (unless the link you posted from ctprofiles is the one?) and what buffs you might have had that affected it? Thanks. I want to increase my threat more =(

Oh and one last thing. My shaman was swapped into one of the other groups to give them heroism, so I didn't have it. I doubt that's the reason my TPS is about 300 lower than yours though. HALP!

Negiva, here's the Gorefiend parse for me from our most recent BT clear. The fight duration is approximately the same as yours, ours was a bit longer. I had Heroism and Drums, which is standard in our composition, but the drums thing is only a recent occurance, all of my older logs had no drum usage and such.

(1530 tps) Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/a6hywgjnxrzss?s=5110-5281)

My HS average was only 21 points higher than yours, SS was ~130 higher, Devastate ~20 higher, rest mostly identical.

This wasn't my peak log by any means, but my gear was better - I finally got Kaz'rogal's shield and that let me cap my hit, and I also put a spike on it. [I have obtained 1500+ tps logs in the past though with worse gearsets)

Your gear is probably basically the same since we're at the same level of content, get all the expertise you can, and then get high hit&#37;, too.

CTProfiles.net: World of Warcraft Profiles Xavastrasz General Threat (http://www.ctprofiles.net/view_profile.ct?pid=48130) is what I am using, I updated it (the 'general threat') one is what I wear for threat on bosses. I *think* for that specific Gorefiend I took off my Moroes for once and wore another block trinket (Sapphiron's) since we were healer heavy and I had timers up just incase.

Are you using Shapeshifter's Signet for more expertise? I use it over the exalted Hyjal ring since the expertise/crit gain is far more beneficial than the block value.

Your ability rotation was pretty good, I doubt you could have done much better there.

The biggest cause of threat loss I can see comparing our two logs here as similar as they are with group comp is overal landed abilities. You had a lot more parries and some misses, I had very few parries and no misses. (I have human bonus + wearing shapeshifter's)

The rest, I guess, is heroism. Although I am not using Haste pots ;)

I haven't actively tried for any especially high threat numbers in ages, that's just a typical Gorefiend for me with the way our raids are done.

Ciderhelm
03-07-2008, 01:55 PM
Xav,

I was following a related thread on the WoW forums yesterday. Check this:
Edgewalker - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/sjih64v64eowe?s=4623-4793&a=13)

10 total Shield Slams, on trinket. 1572 TPS on Teron. It's pretty interesting, as he has reached a point w/ gear/buffs where he can legitimately argue Devastate has outscaled Shield Slam.

Xav
03-07-2008, 03:03 PM
I don't see anything really special there, wearing some DPS gear pieces, sacrificing avoidance, and using haste potions. Those are all possibilities - what I'd guess he actually did was use Dragonspine Trophy, causing the Haste procs, and a bit of DPS gear - and then got rather lucky, and had a very stacked group composition (Enhancement shaman AND a feral druid)

Also, it was 16 total shield slams, not 10 (10 "hit", 3 "crit", 1 "miss", 2 "parry")

Looks like he had a bit more armor pen than the average, since his Revenges were all ~20 points higher than what I get, using just Executioner.

So Feral + Enhance = ~6&#37; more crit? than average compared to a regular shaman and no druid, most likely used an Agi elixir for more crit, a bit more crit/ap from a few choice pieces of DPS gear, and yeah, you'll see numbers like that. There wasn't THAT much sacrificing of SS/Revenge, it was certainly nowhere near an ideal rotation, but with such a strong group, it will definitely cause your alternative button push (devastate) to be a very strong comparison.

I'm confident with a stacked group and a few DPS pieces and a DST + consumables I'd pull quite a bit higher than 1600 TPS, while keeping a tight SS/Rev-centric rotation.

(My reply in a gist: Yeah with enough buffs you don't really have to do anything special since you are doing so much damage with your attacks)

Edit: I dug around looking for the thread you mentioned, and yes, I was completely right on my assumptions :)

Ciderhelm
03-07-2008, 03:08 PM
Actually I was quoting the numbers used in that thread, hadn't loaded up the parse myself.

However, he's confident he can move up to ~1750 TPS, and I'm sure yours can go up, too. His argument is that our normal melee stats can be as good as tanking stats, and is better scaling than Shield Block Value. He's still wearing enough tanking gear that he can tank the ~3rd most damaging physical boss in WoW, he's just chosen to alternate his SBV items with AP items, etc.

//edit: In any case, this is not good advice for anyone below this gear level. It's just an interesting find.

Xav
03-07-2008, 03:28 PM
Indeed, I've considered "maxing out" as well, but it's clearly not even remotely needed, and I don't possess some of the very nice threat-boosting items to put you head-and-shoulders above the rest.

Edit: I've also been well-aware and in agreement that SBV is a poor threat stat, and I always try and put it towards the end of "threat stats" when listing what you look for. SBV is only affecting your threat POTENTIALLY every 6 seconds, often longer than that - as opposed to crit, hit, armor pen, and AP which are going to affect almost everything.

The last thing we want is a tank who's just learning how to maximize his or her threat to start sacrificing gear when it's probably not at all what they need at that point ;)

Ciderhelm
03-07-2008, 03:32 PM
Indeed, I've considered "maxing out" as well, but it's clearly not even remotely needed, and I don't possess some of the very nice threat-boosting items to put you head-and-shoulders above the rest.

The last thing we want is a tank who's just learning how to maximize his or her threat to start sacrificing gear when it's probably not at all what they need at that point ;)

But it's threat.

It's like cocaine for tanks. How can you not want to sacrifice raid efficiency for it? Too much restraint on your part, imo.

To be fair, his kill was 2min 51 seconds. His raid beat your time by one second. :D

Caulle
03-07-2008, 03:34 PM
Link to that thread on the wow forums? That's some pretty interesting information.

Ciderhelm
03-07-2008, 03:35 PM
WoW Forums -> Warrior tank with 20K HP unbuffed? WHAT (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5103674584&sid=1)

Xav
03-07-2008, 03:36 PM
Eh, I stopped going for big numbers when I satisfyingly crushed the other "highest tps" log I had seen at the time, Bland from Drow, who wore almost entirely DPS gear to tank, and pulled 1500 tps. After pulling repeated 1500+ logs (1515, 1530, 1550, 1565, 1540, etc) with my "not maxed out" suit, I was fine :) This was months ago.

I might get re-interested in going for a max if we ever get a feral druid, right now, pulling 1530 tps, adding approximately 5&#37; more crit would put me at almost 1600 TPS just from the feral's crit alone, nothing else changing.

Caulle
03-07-2008, 03:52 PM
WoW Forums -> Warrior tank with 20K HP unbuffed? WHAT (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5103674584&sid=1)

Oh man, some of those people need to calm down.

Ariedan
03-08-2008, 09:33 AM
I remember following this topic as well, and it provided some interesting insight. It definitely makes sense but I'm not quite at his level in gear to substitute some tanking pieces for dps items to achieve higher threat.

Nicki
03-10-2008, 08:44 AM
Igraine - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/23qmqf4r5riyy?s=6767-6908&a=28)

found it on wws 1687 tps :O

chengt
03-17-2008, 11:59 AM
I find the WWS analysis a bit misleading.
I can only see hit and miss and dodge and parries but no totals.
So if I see SS 22 and Revenge 35 That might just mean that you didn't hit all your SS right?
Does anyone know how to get a total for each regardless of hit or avoided?

Xav
03-17-2008, 06:58 PM
Igraine - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/23qmqf4r5riyy?s=6767-6908&a=28)

found it on wws 1687 tps :O

After looking at that log a bit more indepth, and the players' analysis, this is what allowed that:

Appears to be Darkmoon Buffed with a high &#37;, possibly 10%. Very high revenges, maximum revenge hit is 30 points higher than a standard tank's.

If the rest of the raid was darkmoon buffed as well (dont' feel like checking, but likely, since the tank seems to be), that's also why the fight duration was so short, without stacking out of the ordinary. Shorter fight duration = more hero uptime, etc. Also has or wore perfect threat gear and got rather lucky with crits, 30% crit on SS, and none avoided.

He also had much higher uptime of Earth Shield than most people, which is a compliment on their healers. (I don't know why my shamans dont' always recast it immediately or at all sometimes).

Also was either rather lucky with WF procs, or I'm rather unlucky. (I have the same number of WF procs on my average logs, but our boss fight is almost a minute longer since we're running with a lot of healers and no stacking). Had more procs of Executioner in a shorter fight than I have in a longer fight

Since he wasn't keeping a super tight rotation and missed several revenges, after taking everything into consideration I've this to say:

Decent tank, very lucky run (crits, etc), very short fight duration = magnified TPS average due to heroism.

I unfortunately probably won't be able to tank Gorefiend myself for at least a week longer and then may not have an ideal raid anyway, so I don't know if I'll ever be able to really test my own max after getting the gear improvements I needed.

Anyway, not a bad log, but Darkmoon and the like is kind of silly. Any of my high logs where I had a good group back in the day (with lesser gear, even), affected by a 9 or 10% darkmoon would yeild higher TPS than the log linked. ;)

Xav
03-17-2008, 07:02 PM
I find the WWS analysis a bit misleading.
I can only see hit and miss and dodge and parries but no totals.
So if I see SS 22 and Revenge 35 That might just mean that you didn't hit all your SS right?
Does anyone know how to get a total for each regardless of hit or avoided?

Press the tab on your abilities page that says "Columns"

On the left a new row description appears (several, actually), "Nb" "&#37;" "Avg" "Max", etc. Check the boxes under the "Nb" (i believe it's abbreviated for "number") for Crit, Miss, Parry, and Dodge.

That will show the number of Crits, Misses, Parries, and Dodges of your abilities. The "Hits" is on by default, so now you can add up hit+crit+miss+parry+dodge as seen there and find the total number of abilities used. Alternatively, you can just check "All Miss" and not add up the manual misses/parries/dodges, but I'm not sure if that counts blocked hits or not, so that's why I just do it the other way.

I believe this was in my original post, I'll double check.

Edit: Yes, I already wrote all this in the original post, so it's here twice now, but this is a quote from the first post:


"Once you have your page open, hit the "Columns" button near the top of the ability usage, and check the following boxes, under the "NB" section: "Crits" "All Miss". If you want, you can also check the box for Miss, Dodge, and Parry, to further understand where your biggest loss of threat is from.

Now, add up the total number of Shield Slams, Devastates, and Revenges. Just add the number of Hits, the number of Crits, and the number of "All Miss" (Crits are not included in the "hits" column!)"

chengt
03-18-2008, 02:05 PM
Ahh ok.. Sry I missed that part while reading and the WWS was gone so I couldn't check against it.

Xav
03-22-2008, 10:39 PM
Since people seemed to get a kick out of the gimmick logs earlier in the thread, here's something you might like:

Xavastrasz - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/v1mhhk44x2khy?a=2&s=272-487)

Battle time in seconds: 215

Heroic Strike:
Amount: 151011 Hits: 95 Crits: 56 Dmg Threat: 225761.445 Skill Threat: 49663.9
Shield slam:
Amount: 27190 Hits: 19 Crits: 9 Dmg Threat: 40649.05 Skill Threat: 12851.02
Melee:
Amount: 3137 Hits: 3 Crits: 2 Dmg Threat: 4689.815 Skill Threat: 0
Revenge:
Amount: 21706 Hits: 16 Crits: 15 Dmg Threat: 32450.47 Skill Threat: 9315.345
Devastate:
Amount: 46300 Hits: 33 Crits: 28 Dmg Threat: 69218.5 Skill Threat: 9210.695
Shield Bash:
Amount: Hits: Crits: Dmg Threat: 0 Skill Threat: 0
Cleave:
Amount: Hits: Crits: Dmg Threat: 0 Skill Threat: 0
Thunder Clap:
Amount: Hits: Crits: Dmg Threat: 0 Skill Threat: 0
Reflect:
Amount: 7938 Hits: 163 Crits: Dmg Threat: 11867.31 Skill Threat: 0
Vengeance:
Amount: Hits: Crits: Dmg Threat: 0 Skill Threat: 0
Thunderfury:
Amount: Hits: Crits: Dmg Threat: 0 Skill Threat: 0
Deep Wound:
Amount: Hits: Crits: Dmg Threat: 0 Skill Threat: 0
Lifebloom:
Amount: 7211 Overheal: 40% Threat: 4326.6
Earthshield:
Amount: 40971 Overheal: 21% Threat: 32367.09
Prayer of Mending:
Amount: Overheal: % Threat: 0

Total amount of dmg threat: 384636.59
Total amount of skill threat: 81040.96
Total amount of healing threat: 20510.145

TPS: 2261.3381162791


:D


Much later edit: Top threat parses of Gorefiend: Coolyo[dot]org (http://www.coolyo.org/index.php?area=threat_boss&id=40)

gyre
03-23-2008, 04:39 AM
I've got a question about rotation.

Say you've done SS, rev, dev, and have only just enough rage to do another dev.

Do you do the dev, or leave that time slot vacant in the hope that you'll have a bit more rage for SS when it is available in 1.5s time?

If in 1.5s time you still don't have the rage for SS, do you dev, or wait again?

Thanks.

-- gyre --

Xav
03-23-2008, 12:51 PM
The likelihood that you will not have enough rage to do what you said is very slim. (Auto attacking provides enough rage to sustain the basic rotation without heroic strike for a while, unless you get very unlucky). But if it does occur, I'd do a devastate. 1.5 seconds later when shield slam is up, you MAY have gotten hit and earned enough rage to continue as normal. If you didn't, oh well, simply bad luck and threat will dwindle. Attempt to save bloodrage for when your rage drops to a lower point so you wont have to wait.

gyre
03-23-2008, 06:10 PM
Thanks Xav.

-- gyre --

gyre
03-24-2008, 02:22 AM
OK, another very similar question. :)

Say you've done SS, rev, dev, dev. It is now time for a SS but you don't have enough rage for a SS, but you DO have enough rage for a dev.

Do you do the dev in the case that:

a) you don't have 5 sunders yet on the target.
b) you already have 5 sunders on the target.

I'm guessing (a) is true, and (b) is false. What do you think?

-- gyre --

Xav
03-24-2008, 02:21 PM
Rev-5.0
Dev-3.5
Dev-2.0
.....-0.5
Revenge
Shield Slam

In a sentence form, your best choice would most likely be to wait a half second (this may be even less, due to latency) and do a revenge, then shield slam after.

In the event you don't have 5 sunders up, absolutely choose a devastate first.

gyre
03-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Thanks again Xav. Makes sense to me :)

-- gyre --

Dall
03-31-2008, 10:59 AM
Curious how TC and Demo shout would factor in here? I am guessing only keep them up if threat is not an issue?

I specced into improved demo and TC after reading fortifications and have been trying to keep both up when possible. (not on trash for that I am trying to use TC to get SOME initial threat on as much as possible)

I tend to have a tough time keeping aggro on trash pulls although I think part of that is hunters using multi-shot and rogues bladefurry, the healers heal the offender thus pulling agro.

Ciderhelm
03-31-2008, 11:00 AM
Curious how TC and Demo shout would factor in here? I am guessing only keep them up if threat is not an issue?

I specced into improved demo and TC after reading fortifications and have been trying to keep both up when possible. (not on trash for that I am trying to use TC to get SOME initial threat on as much as possible)

I tend to have a tough time keeping aggro on trash pulls although I think part of that is hunters using multi-shot and rogues bladefurry, the healers heal the offender thus pulling agro.

Have your DPS Warrior keep them up. Make sure your DPS Warrior has them talented as well. :)

Iron
04-11-2008, 09:42 AM
very good information

I really like your GUI setup and would like to know the exact mods you use.
I have been looking for a long time for a good setup.

thanks,

Mornak
04-18-2008, 09:13 AM
I've really been trying to improve my attack rotation by trying to focus on the Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate cycle. Reading this article mentions shooting for 25&#37;-50%-25% with Shield Slam, Devastates, and Revenge attacks. Checking WWS reports shows that my Shield Slams are about where they need to be in relation to Devastates, but my Revenge usage is always really low. When I tank, I try to use Shield Slam and Revenge whenever it's available, but quite often I don't see Revenge coming up nearly enough. Any suggestions?

Mornak's Armory, 12/5/44 spec

Kazeyonoma
04-18-2008, 09:55 AM
That's strange because if you're putting up Shield Block every cd, any non-avoided attack will be a block which will light up revenge.

Mornak
04-18-2008, 10:37 AM
That's how I thought it worked. But I sure don't see Revenge available as often as I think it should be.

Tizack
04-18-2008, 01:35 PM
really like the post very informative

MichaelRo
04-21-2008, 03:30 AM
I have found that using both key-binds and mouse for generating threat make it very easy to get a very decent tps value .

The ideea is very simple:
When you have enough rage you need to keep both heroic strike always up and do the normal devastate,devatate,revenge,shield slam sequence.
You also need to keep pushing shield block buton.

You can do this by using mouse to press devastate,devastate,revenge,shield slam and keys to keep pushing shield block and heroic strike.

With the gear you see equiped on me - with little modifications -I was geting easy this way up to over 1.2k tps sustained with WF totem.
This was before patch - that times I had warbringer as weapon, S1 chest as tanking tps chest,brooch of deftness instead of exalted SSO neck and Shield of Impenetrable Darkness instead of what I am wearing atm.

(after patch omen does not display for me anything...)


The ideea behind this is that you will find quite hard to use 2 fingers to keep pressing 2 keys all the time while with other 3 fingers you use devastate,shield slam,revenge.
When I started tanking I was useing key-binding for tanking - but my tps was not so great.
Atm I am useing both mouse and keys and is much better.

This is most usefull for raid bosses - where you do not need to move so much and you need to focus to do best tps you can.

Xav
04-21-2008, 01:48 PM
I must respectfully disagree with you. I find it quite simple to retain a ss-rev-dev-dev cycle with one hand, even while keeping heroic strike constantly queued up. It's a very rapid button mashing, for sure, but it prevents me from having to click abilities. I need my mouse to move around and pan the camera to see what's going on. I do not recommend using your mouse to click any basic, oft-used ability.

Hypatia
04-21-2008, 04:04 PM
==Xav

There are too many fights these days where speedy movement is really key. Sure, I can imagine settling down into a nice f-q-r-r rotation (yeah, I use weird keys) on Supremus, say, once I have solid aggro—but I need all of those abilities to get solid aggro in the first place, while I'm moving.


As an alternative, I suggest thinking about what keys to use for tanking abilities, and what fingers will be used for them. I use f-q-r-r for SS-Rev-Dev-Dev. Why? Because my index finger is absolutely dedicated to f and r (SS and Dev). My middle finger moves between e (heroic strike) and 3 (shield block), as appropriate, and is also the finger that goes for 4 (taunt/mocking blow) when I need it. My ring finger is used for q (revenge), but also for ~ (demo shout), 1 (thunderclap), and 2 (shield bash) when needed.

There are some other ancillary things around, but the key thing here is that I don't use key positions that require me to stretch very far, or to use multiple keys that are very close together at the same time. r and f for Dev and SS are the closest, and because I don't do anything else with that finger, it's just a shift up and down, which is nearly the smallest movement possible on a keyboard.

In short: Yeah, you can use a mouse for that. But it's not a great idea. Better is to place your abilities in reasonable places on your keyboard. Make your keyboard conform to how you'd like to play, rather than playing in the way your keyboard seems to demand. (Because honestly? The keyboard does not care which keys you're pressing.)

Xav
04-21-2008, 09:34 PM
I don't know what ==Xav means, but I'm assuming your post wasn't directed at me, because I don't click anything.

MichaelRo
04-22-2008, 03:04 AM
For me is quite strange to use mouse for moveing.
I guess some ppl can tank useing mouse for moveing and keyboard for all tanking abilities other use mouse for clicking and keyboard for moveing etc.

I tryed to use keyboard only for tanking but I can't press buttons at a decent rate.Not to mention that I am pressing butons anarhic.

I mean for me is quite hard to keep push 2 buttons - the one for shield block and heroic strike and use the other 3 abilities in a right way.

If I am pressing with mouse I do not have any problems to move and do nice tps.
No ideea why some are saying that you can not have success pressing abilities with mouse.
I mean assuming that all are same is not quite true - everyone should try and see what style is best for him.

Ghost
04-22-2008, 04:22 AM
At Xav:

I know this is a bit off topic but ill ask this 1st up, i <3 ur UI and a list ur set up would b awsome, mines rly messy atm :o (rly need to clean it up :o)

Currently i use item rack and i pretty much have a threat set for trash that consists of capped hit and FULL capped expertise with the other slots filled in with max Block Value gear. Most trash i can hit over 1400TPS, havent tried it on any bosses yet.

For general tanking / farm stuff i just wear most of my BT/Hyjal gear coz of the great hit coupled with some pretty great stats.

But on fights when/if healers are strained i sub out alot of gear for gear extremely high on avoidance/mitigation. In my full dodge gear my TPS pushes 900, but thats keeping shield block up constantly.

Hypatia
04-22-2008, 08:21 AM
If I am pressing with mouse I do not have any problems to move and do nice tps.
No ideea why some are saying that you can not have success pressing abilities with mouse.
I mean assuming that all are same is not quite true - everyone should try and see what style is best for him.

People say that you can't succeed with a mouse-clicking style because of fights like Anub'rekhan (http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=15956) in Naxxramas. Personally, I think that the movement requirements on Fathom-Lord Karathress (http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=21214) are enough to make mouse movement a skill you absolutely need (although unlike Anub'rekhan, I can easily imagine someone doing Karathress with the keyboard.)

The problem with the Anub'rekhan fight is that you have to be in a position to move away from the boss instantly, and move in a semi-circle while remaining ahead of the boss. Otherwise, you don't outrange the aura, which is bad bad news. And typically, people use Aspect of the Pack to get speed on that, which means getting hit is also really super bad.

On Karathress, the turn-and-run aspect isn't quite as urgent. But still, using mouse movement means you can strafe-kite Naj'entus while continuing to use occasional shield block and aggro moves while you do it. I think this one is doable with the keyboard, with some preparation and practice, but I think it's probably a heck of a lot easier for people who use the mouse to move.


Oh, and ==Xav means "What Xav said".

HankTehTank
05-09-2008, 07:27 AM
Hi, Xav thanks for posting this great guide - as a n00b tank I find it very informative. I have a n00b question. A lot of times in non-boss fights the tank runs into a crowd and is responsible for holding aggro on multiple mobs correct? How does the ss/rev/dev/dev rotation fit in here? Can someone give me some best practice hints of initiating combat against multiple mobs? I have become pretty adept at using the keyboad for targetting/attacking and the mouse strictly for moving so it's more a matter of what than how that I'm asking about... e.g. do I tab target one guy ss/rev/dev/dev him and then move onto the next guy? rinse/repeat?

Thanks a lot!! :D

7echno7im
05-10-2008, 12:43 AM
I was wondering if people could list their keybindings and maybe explain why they have it that way. I am looking to rebuild and rebind my keyboard. thanks.

Xav
05-10-2008, 09:52 AM
For multi mob tanking, when it's 3+, make sure you're always using Thunder Clap on every cooldown. When it's on cooldown, just throw devastates/revenges/shield slams on the surrounding mobs, and on the main "focus target" if there is one, use your biggest threat moves on that. My preferred method is to thunder clap all the mobs, and use my revenge cooldowns on the extra mobs, and focus devastates/shield slams on the main target. Might also have to devastate the extra mobs because revenge has a cooldown.

I've also got a thread with my UI in it (although it is outdated, it may still work) in the UI section of this website. "Xav's UI"

Xav
05-10-2008, 10:03 AM
Updated with item links/new items, and a brief mention of expertise levels needed for 5 mans/25 mans and such.

7echno7im
05-10-2008, 10:37 AM
can you list your mappings for 1-0 or even 1-= if you have it mapped that way?

Thanks

Xav
05-10-2008, 01:49 PM
F1 - Battle stance
F2 - Defensive Stance
F3 - Berserker Stance
1 - Taunt
2 - Devastate
3 - Heroic
4 - Shield Slam
5 - Shield Block
6 - Revenge
` (Tilde) - Berserker Rage
Shift 1 - AOE Taunt
Shift 2 - Inspect (lol)
Shift 3 - Demoralizing Shout
Shift 4 - Battle Shout
Shift 5 - Mount
Ctrl 4 - Commanding Shout
G - Bandage
Shift+G - Last Stand
Ctrl+G - Shield Wall (rarely use hotkey due to GCD restriction)
Ctrl+F - Conc blow
Z - Shield Bash
R - Also Demoralizing Shout if tanking, otherwise Piercing Howl if PvP specced
F - Thunder Clap, otherwise Hamstring
H - Target Self (for bandages, or for turning off attack without reaching for escape)
Shift+H - Intimidating Shout
J - Racial (Perception)
T - Attack
Shift+T - Intervene

When in Berserker Stance, 1 changes to Intercept, other basic 1-6 keys change too for offensive abilities
When in Battle Stance, 1 changes to Charge

Sparkarn
05-12-2008, 02:50 AM
Really nice guide, really puts things into perspective, I'll be following this guide now. As expertise rating got introduced recently and I have just now begin to realise the importance of it, I'll be stacking it along with my hit rating from now on.

Canadianpimp
05-12-2008, 02:53 AM
Just wanted to give my thanks to Xav for writing this. The analysis of GCDs and ability usage from WWS really helped me evaluate my performance.

Dragaan
05-18-2008, 10:15 PM
I have something pertaining to the guide that I'd like to throw in. I have heard from a lot of tanks (myself included), who don't really like the "standard" way to keybind abilities. It may be my inexperience with computer games as a whole, but I just dont like using the left side to move/bind. I have always used the arrow keys on the lower-right side of the keyboard to move. When I decided to start keybinding all my tanking abilities, I bound them to the 6 keys that are just above those arrow keys. This gives you 2 rows of 3 keys each. My main/spam abilities are on the lower keys (which my fingers would normal hover over), and "oh shit" abilities or longer-cooldown abilities I have bound to the upper keys. I also bound "tab target" and a few other key abilities/items to the 7,4,1 keys on the right number pad. I find this setup really easy to use and I really have never had any problems. The only "downside" to this setup I guess is that you still have to mouseclick abilities while moving or positioning a boss (once I'm done moving, I can get right back onto my keybindings in a split-second). In the majority of most ppl's situations, this isnt a huge deal. Figured this might help some ppl if they are thinking of an alternative way to bind their abilities.

edit: I also use right ctrl for my vent push-to-talk key and 0 on the right num pad to jump.

Newezo
05-24-2008, 09:40 AM
I want to learn how is the better form to generate aggro at 2-4 trash mobs?

adamb10
07-06-2008, 05:31 PM
So I was tanking BT trash today and I tried to include a heroic strike inplace of the regular melee swing and saw my TPS boost to 1100-1300 from 800. Was this just a coincidence or is that permanent?

aodin
07-28-2008, 07:55 PM
This is my first time posting here. I am finding some really good info...thanks. Anyways, my questions is about heroic strike. I noticed in your key spamming that you start off with 3 of them instead of devestate. Am I reading this wrong? I realize HS has poor rage to threat ratio so that is why I ask. I also like your whole user interface. Was just wondering what the name is so I can look it up.

anachron
07-29-2008, 05:32 AM
i got a question:

we all know that TPS is gear/rotation/luck/latency dependant.

But... is it also computer performance dependant?

I was wondering this cause, with my standard tanking set (3xT6, etc. armory:The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Jaedenar&n=Anachron)) i don't see a very strong TPS generation (600-1200 TPS, average about 800-900) in MH/BT.

My comp. is an AMD64 3200+ with a Radeon X1950 (AGP slot) 2Gb Ram.

Destruyen
08-03-2008, 04:29 PM
I have 4 pieces of Tier 4 (Helm, Shoulders, Gloves, and Pants) and my rotation is the same except I switch Revenge and SS around. My rotation is Revenge/SS/Devastate/Devastate. I don't know if I'm right in doing this or if it even matters...

hbombs
08-06-2008, 10:58 AM
I have 4 pieces of Tier 4 (Helm, Shoulders, Gloves, and Pants) and my rotation is the same except I switch Revenge and SS around. My rotation is Revenge/SS/Devastate/Devastate. I don't know if I'm right in doing this or if it even matters...


You may have so much avoidance (t4) that you dont really have the rage many times for the proper rotation. Once you get into t5 and the itemization is geared more towards threat I hope you will switch to the regular SS/Rev/Dev/Dev

Krashtork
08-06-2008, 01:09 PM
I think what he's getting at is with the 10% dmg increase from t4 set 4 bonus he is overall scaling his TPS by boosting Shield Slam power by 10%.

I think you're doing it right Des

Destruyen
08-06-2008, 04:09 PM
hbombs- i have plenty of rage for the rotation, plus heroic strike spams. yeh my avoidance is high (78-79%) but i haven't sacrificed my EH for it. since i'm a progression tank (ssc, tk, za) i don't have rage issues on bosses. for trash pulls i make a few gear changes so rage won't be a problem.

krash- thanks.

Kazeyonoma
08-06-2008, 04:27 PM
avoidance is only miss/dodge/parry, so i doubt you have 78-79% avoidance. you in fact have 78-79% combined avoidance and block. Just clarification.

Destruyen
08-06-2008, 04:29 PM
48.7% avoidance (dodge/parry/miss) and 77.1% combined...wasn't thinking right...sorry

fatguy
08-10-2008, 02:58 PM
awesome m8, just started a tank and this post was pure gold tbh, keep it up!

ivan3echo
08-10-2008, 11:20 PM
Hi, i don't know where to ask this, so i posted this here. I have a druid lvl 70 and i find it hard to hold aggro. I've tried all sorts of rotation with mangle, maul lacx5 and repeat or maul, mangle lacx3 mangle lacx3 or mangle lacx5, maul mangle lacx5. But i still can't hold the mob to myself. What is wrong here ? And how do i tank multiple mobs ? All i do is mangle and lacx1 on skull, then lac2x on X, then probably mangle the 3rd mob then back to skull to keep on lac-ing. Is that right ? Can anyone enlighten me ?

Xav
08-11-2008, 08:05 AM
I don't really know much about druids, but you may want to try asking in the druid sticky: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/tankspot-library/34134-bear-me-i-want-tank-guide-druids.html

Atuan
09-03-2008, 02:53 PM
Hey Xav i want to thank you for the post u wrote :). It helped me a lot, my tank is t5 quality and is entering mh and bt. I want to ask u a question- U say the best rotation is SS/Rev/dev/dev. I agree but what if i dont dodge/block or parry in the beggining of the fight and cant cast my Rev?

Ty :)

Tankenshurty
09-03-2008, 11:53 PM
WHY is executioner a better "threat weapon?"....I've been wondering this for ages, but doesn't agility(120 from mongoose + attack speed increase) increase crit, which increases rage and threat?...Seems like the 4-5% crit from mongoose proc would outway the threat gained from armor ignore...Plus the added avoidance doesn't hurt at all....Anyone have some figures on Executioner vs. Mongoose for THREAT?:confused:

Kazeyonoma
09-04-2008, 01:16 AM
This was parsed by EJ a long time ago and Ignore armor benefits higher threat gains than mongoose entirely. the attack speed increase is 2% on a 1.6 speed tanking weapon that makes it a whopping 1.568 speed. The agility sure boosts our crit, but ignoring an opponents armor scales faster than crit does, especially post sunder and proc'ing it gives ALL of our attacks, including crits during the duration to hit for 840 less armor mitigation, that's a good 2-3% mitigation removal right there. If you're gonna argue about threat you can't toss in the avoidance issue, yes goose is better for avoidance, there's no arguing that, but executioner likewise is better for threat.

Ashwill
09-04-2008, 01:04 PM
I have to said it, this post was realy helpfull, we kill for the first time Illidan 3 weeks ago and its a bit because of your post. Quick question do you use your starting ss macro in all fight or you swich whit the reg ss agains high dps boss like mother.

Ty

Ashwill
Prot war
dominance

Tankenshurty
09-05-2008, 08:29 PM
This was parsed by EJ a long time ago and Ignore armor benefits higher threat gains than mongoose entirely. the attack speed increase is 2% on a 1.6 speed tanking weapon that makes it a whopping 1.568 speed. The agility sure boosts our crit, but ignoring an opponents armor scales faster than crit does, especially post sunder and proc'ing it gives ALL of our attacks, including crits during the duration to hit for 840 less armor mitigation, that's a good 2-3% mitigation removal right there. If you're gonna argue about threat you can't toss in the avoidance issue, yes goose is better for avoidance, there's no arguing that, but executioner likewise is better for threat.



Happen to have a link to that? I'd like to see the numbers.

Rootkitworm
09-11-2008, 09:33 AM
I found this thread very helpful Xav, and you have convinced me to drop all my "tanking" macros in the hopeful goal to achieve better threat/rage via tighter rotations and more controlled rage management. I know quite a few of you who are more experienced (ie Satrina) do not use tanking macros either, and I've no doubt you all know more than I. So thanks for pointing out exactly why it is not a good idea to use tanking macros (excluding non-combat, pvp, fear dance). Much appreciated.

Now I just need to find/create a thread so I can figure out exactly what addons I can use that are most beneficial for tanking only.

I recently downloaded Fame's UI package and found it to be way to much stuff for me to understand how it's use would help. I did pick apart the folder and found some addons I liked more than others. But things like Fubar and some others didn't seem helpful, or I just had no idea what to do with it. Do I need raid bars as a tank (ie Pitbull)?

Xav
09-11-2008, 10:13 AM
Raid bars as a tank, absolutely. You can check out my UI and see if it's more your style. It's in the ui forum also.

bludwork
09-11-2008, 12:22 PM
The threat boost you get from an executioner proc is higher than mongoose but mongoose is vastly superior for a tank overall due to the mitigation it gives.

Rootkitworm
09-11-2008, 02:01 PM
The threat boost you get from an executioner proc is higher than mongoose but mongoose is vastly superior for a tank overall due to the mitigation it gives.

So it sounds like, in conclusion, executioner should be put on your 2nd best tank weapon for clearing through trash faster. That is assuming the trash doesn't crit or hurt you that bad. For this as well, some boss fights like Voidreaver make it a good switch-to-weapon for more threat when he is focusing on another tank target I believe.

Alo
09-11-2008, 02:41 PM
Xav, thank you so much for creating this thread. While I was learning how to tank, and still just getting my confidence up,(My record back then for tanking was MT with 2 wipes :P) this really taught me how to do decent TPS. Thanks to this thread, and also other threads, I greatly improved my tanking. I also switched my Strafes to the A/D to use Q/E For my Shield Slam/Revenge. As I said at the start, thank you for this post :P

Krystelle
10-29-2008, 04:24 AM
Ah, bookmarked this thread, will digest a little later :) Looks like there's exactly what I need in here!

...I'm going to want to see what is made of the new talent trees, though - evil, evil Shield Block nerf! Any ideas on an ETA for such an analysis?

Krystelle

Xav
10-29-2008, 08:07 AM
Eh, this thread is far less relevant now with the 3.0 changes, I'm not sure if I'll ever review it. Most if it still applies, anyway, since it's methodology / player skill things and not specific to talents, etc.

Ozk
05-12-2009, 08:20 PM
very helpful. thanks.

Daavos
02-23-2010, 03:23 PM
Not to be a party pooper but XAV's guide is really, really out of date. I wonder if it might be better to just remove it since it is no longer being updated.

Kazeyonoma
02-23-2010, 07:05 PM
while the gear, and even maybe the rotation might be off from the new ideal rotations for threat, a lot of what he discusses, especially keybinding, communication, and such, are all very valid, so removing the guide although outdated, would be a detriment to players who want to improve themselves.

ioask4it
04-07-2010, 01:23 AM
Using Glyph of Revenge (http://www.wowwiki.com/Glyph_of_Revenge) your next HS will be on free.
So, this means that we will modify a little our rotation, right?
Ah, assuming that there is a ONE MOB fight! If it is a multi-mob fight, then Thunder Clap as soon as available. I am a beginner, 68 lvl, so fighting multi-mobs can be a challenge :D

Kazeyonoma
04-07-2010, 09:58 AM
HS is off the global cooldown, you can hit it anytime during your fight and not have it cause problems with your rotation, so if you choose to glyph revenge (not recommended btw) you can continue to hit devastate/shockwave after it and still queue up heroic strike and get it for free.

greaterchees
05-04-2010, 05:48 PM
was wondering with mobs do u use thunderclap and cleave or are u useing this rotaion and tabbing to next guy in mob sorry if this sounds stupid just learning to tank guild wants me to tank and haveing some issuues with mobs bosses i can hold

Kazeyonoma
05-04-2010, 06:05 PM
with more than one mob, you squeeze in tclap whenever it's up, and cleave instead of heroic strike, otherwise, yes tab through and follow your standard rotation (with tclap taking #1 spot)