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Meeks
01-31-2008, 08:21 AM
Many people know me from the fury guide I wrote, however the last couple months I have been raiding as a MS warrior. I have noticed that there is not a good pve arms guide so I decided to write one myself again. As a result you will get to muddle through my horrible grammar and spelling again. With a little luck it will be more complete in the near future.



1) Spec/Overview
2) Quartz
3) Slam Rotation
4) Heroic Strike Rotation
5) Stats/Gear/Gems
6) Improved Demo
7) Execute Phase




1) Spec/Overview:

Until very recently MS was considered a joke for raiding. Very few warriors did it and most were made fun of for not going DW fury. Now the build has been gaining momentum and becoming more and more popular. Now in BT/Hyjal you will see the balance shifting in favor of MS warriors..especially if a raid carries just one dps warrior. The added raid damage from Blood Frenzy is a large increase in raid damage and even improves the aggro generation of the tanks. There are two builds making their rounds right now. One is the improved slam build that I would say nearly every MS warrior uses but recently I have seen a few warriors drop improved slam for improved execute and pick up improved heroic strike. I have not experience with the latter build so can not offer good criticism but it is not something I would recommend. I will be giving the build a try myself sometime soon to see how it feels and after that I then I will add more information to how the build preforms.

Be warned. This is probably the most intensive dps build out there right now. If you want to be topping the charts you have to be on top of your game constantly and have to focus even on farm content. DW fury is far more forgiving of lag and laziness. That being said when done properly an imp slam build is capable of similar dps as fury and provides Blood Frenzy which adds another couple hundred dps to the raid.

Note: I include improved demo shout in all the builds but if you have someone else that is taking it you can put those points wherever you please.

I also include improved intercept in both the builds. This can easily be swapped for Improved Disciplines which will add some damage. I personally prefer the intercept because there are some fights where it comes in handy but if you wanted the maximum dps go with Improved Disciplines.


Imp Slam Build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0tzAbog0dZVx0V0gRc)

Heroic Strike Build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LG0xkAbog0dZVx0VMxRc)


2) Quartz

Quartz is a wow ace mod that tracks your swing timer. If you are going the improved slam route then this mod is required. See next section for more info.



3) Slam Rotation

Now that you have your build and your mod you need to learn your rotation. This is the hardest part of of being an Arms warrior as your damage is directly related to how well you can execute this rotation. Slam resets your auto attack swing timer so when you use the ability is crucial. Here is how things break down:

You want your slam to start every swing as soon as the auto attack happens. To do this you need to have Quartz activated and displaying your swing timer. Ideally if you have 0 latency you will hit slam as soon as the swing timer finishes. If executed perfectly you will only loose .5 seconds from your auto attack and you will be maximizing your potential damage. Unfortunately most people do not have 0 latency so to maimize your rotation Quartz has another very use feature to help you avoid latency slowing your rotation.

When you hit your slam button Quartz will display your latency on the Slam swing timer. Remember this number every time you slam. For example if it says 300 MS then you watch your swing timer and when there is 300 MS left in the swing timer hit slam. When done correctly the slam will start as soon as the auto attack happens. The problem here is that if you jump the gun even a little you will loose your auto attack and that is much worse then being a little late on the slam. As you do this more and more you will develop a feel for it and it will get a little easier.

Now that you got the Slam part of the rotation now you need to weave in your Mortal Strike, Whirlwind, and shouts. There is an easy rotation for this:


Auto attack --> Slam --> Mortal Strike
Auto attack --> Slam --> Whirlwind
Auto attack --> Slam --> Mortal Strike
Auto attack --> Slam --> Demo Shout/battle shout


Now do not be worried if you do not have the rage to do the full rotation every time through. Slam is your priority. Slam every attack then if rage is left over go to the rest of your rotation. If I slam and then do not have rage for for a MS or WW I will use the available cooldown to bloodrage to give a little boost to the next rotation.

The last important thing to realize for this rotation is that you can not push you hasted attack speed past 2.5 seconds. Because of your cooldowns even if you push your attack speed past 2.5 seconds your rotation will still take 2.5 seconds and you will loose all the haste past that point. I use a 3.5 speed sword and have 3/5 Flurry and the Gruul trinket. When The trinket is procced and Flurry is up my attack speed is 2.52 seconds. So I make sure to avoid any more haste at all as it would have no effect on me.



4) Heroic Strike Rotation

While I have never used this build I understand the basic fundamentals which I will lay down here for now. In the future I will try it out myself but in the mean time if anyone reading this has used it themselves please feel free to expand and explain your rationale for it.

Heroic strike is never used ever for the slam rotation but it does have dps benefits past the 176 damage the tool tip says it adds. Heroic strike turns a white attack that can glance into a yellow attack that can not be glanced and gets bonus crit damage. The goal here is to limit damage lost to glancing blows and have rage to hit MS and WW every time they cooldown, something which a slam rotation rarely allows.



5) Stats/Gear/Gems


Weapon:

Since you are arms you will have to pick a weapon mastery to go along with your weapon. I personally prefer swords and they will slightly out preform axes. However if you have a good axe do not be afraid to use it as axe spec is still good for pve. DO NOT USE MACES FOR PVE. You will loose a lot of damage if you go mace spec. Avoid it.


Stats:

Hit Rating: The first most important stat for pve arms is hit rating. You will not have acess to percision so the cap for all your attacks to hit a raid boss is 142. Getting to this level is very important as it is easy to obtain and provides the cheapest item budget point to dps increase ratio there is. People that know me might be shocked to hear me say this but if you have to Gem for it. 142 is not a huge number however and it is obtainable usually without even trying once you have acess to good gear. In fact it sometimes becomes a juggling of gear to lower your hit so you do not go over the cap.


Armor Penetration:

Most of the hard data is going to come from a thread at the Elitist Jerks forums. I will post the full thread here for you to browse at your leisure then I will repost the more pertinent data directly.

Boss armor values: [RAID] Boss armor values - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16629-raid_boss_armor_values/)




Notice that all but 2 of the bosses have either 6200 or 7700 armor. A similar pattern occurs in the trash mobs: 5475/5700/5950 or 6800/7100/7400 for level 70/71/72 mobs. In terms of percentage reduction, these values result in either 34.15% or 39.15% armor reduction vs attackers of the same level as the mob.


Armor reduction of a level 73 boss attacked by a level 70 player is 37% for 6200 armor, and 42.17% for 7700 armor. Sunder Armor x5 is -2600 armor, Faerie Fire is -610, and Curse of Recklessness is -800.

For a boss with 6200/7700 armor, SA x5 gives a damage increase of 18.36%/16.61%.

If we assume now that the boss has SA stacked x5 on it, adding just FF gives a further 4.5%/4.05% increase, CoR gives 5.99%/5.38%, and with both on they give 11.06%/9.9% increase over just SA.

Armor Penetration is a bit more complex because it comes it varied amounts. If the boss has just SA x5 on it, then the effect of ArP is as follows:
100 ArP: 0.71%/0.64%
200 ArP: 1.43%/1.29%
300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%
400 ArP: 2.91%/2.62%
500 ArP: 3.66%/3.3%

For a fully debuffed boss (SA x5, FF, CoR) the increase from ArP is:
100 ArP: 0.79%/0.71%
200 ArP: 1.59%/1.42%
300 ArP: 2.41%/2.15%
400 ArP: 3.24%/2.89%
500 ArP: 4.08%/3.64%


This stat is what is propelling Arms warriors up teh dps charts. It is easily possible in Tier 6 gear to get enough armor penetration so that when executioner procs you bring low armored bosses to 0 armor. In fact you can get more then this though you can lower a targets armor past 0. When you pass this point then it is wise to carry around gear for low armor bosses that has other stats. Then for high armor bosses use the extra penetration and for low armor bosses use the other gear.


Crit:

When I switched to Arms I kept the socket all str mentality and it worked for a while. Now though as I pick up more and more armor pen my AP is staying high but my crit took a dive. I am in the process of regemming to get my crit up because with all the AP and armor pen on Tier 6 gear and the lack of crit it's relative value of crit has gone up past that of Str.


Tier 6 Gear:

I recommend going for 4 piece tier 6. I go for the Helm/Chest/Gloves/Shoulders. Pick up the bloodboil legs and only use 4 pieces.


I also want to take a moment to steer people in the direction of MaxDPS.com - News (http://www.maxdps.com) It is not a be all end all of gear ranking however it offers a crucial service in the fact that it re-evaluate all the stats values based on your current stats. While not 100% it gives a very good feel for gear and is very helpful in planning upgrades.



6) Improved Demoralizing Shout

This is something that to me is very important. That is because for a warlock to safely be able to use curse of recklessness on a raid boss someone in the raid needs to have 5/5 improved demo shout. This falls to arms warriors for several reasons mainly because unbridled wrath is very lackluster for an arms warrior so we are not loosing much. We also have room in our attack rotation to use demo shout. Curse of recklessness adds 800 armor penetration for the entire raid so it is very important for raid dps. If you raid with only 2 locks or someone else in the raid has improved demo then do not worry about it.



7) Execute Phase

Durring this phase I have two 1.5 speed weapons that I equip and I blow my cooldowns and spam execute. Now I used to keep executing the entire 20% but now I have reached a point where once my cooldowns are over and I no longer have the rage to support an execute every global cooldown I do more damage re-equipping my two hander and resuming my slam rotation.

Now the question is at what point does it become worth it to maintain your slam rotation over executing? That is something I will have to get back to you on.

lorelye
02-04-2008, 01:46 PM
Would you care to add, suggested minimum stats for SSC, TK, Hyjal and BT?

Starting SSC, which gear would you choose from heroic badge vendor? Would using Bloodmoon affect your choices?

Would you trade crit for hit? If so, at what point would you stop?

Landais
02-06-2008, 05:59 AM
If you have no dps gear => make arena an buy some s3 stuff

s3 stuff have large amount of crit and some armor pen.

complete with ring,neck,back whith +hit because your first goal is to aim the hit capping (9% or 142 hit rating).

tilly4rilly
02-08-2008, 09:09 PM
i have no respect for you any more "Meeks". your MS build is pure crap. For one, if your tank needs to rely on 4% increased threat then there are issues. Most raids ive seen dont have a lot of physical damage to even make much of a difference.

Oh grats, you're upping that rogues 1h hit for 500 to 520, woow. times a 20 minute fight may be hundreds more dps, but you'd be doing that much damage yourself easy with this spec.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czIbZVx0VMgoizio)

off the bat you're doing 20% more dps (10% increased attack speed + 10% more attack power) on top of rampage. The points in arms allows you to off tank if ever needed, and yields imp heroic strike for dps / aggro control.

i personally put 2 points in weapon mastery instead of imp execute due to the fact that you dont have precision in either spec.

stat goals are 100 hit rating, 3000AP self buffed / 35% crit strike in zerker

using a 2h ive still yet to see me miss any more than 5 times during a 10 minute fight with 80 hit rating.

Meeks
02-09-2008, 09:19 AM
Lets take a look at one of my guilds Anatheron kills.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/igtm4an1wcqes?s=2540-2774)

For this fight bloody frenzy added: 414.74 dps to the raid
We also usually run with another dps warrior that would of brought that total over 450 dps added.

There is no way you are doing that much more damage with your spec. 10% more attack speed does not yield 10% more damage...neither does 10% ap. You are also loosing sword spec and death wish which are a considerable amount of dps as well.

Also any good 2 hand fury build does not pick up rampage ad gets deathwish instead because rampage is terrible for a 2 hand slam build as it is harder to maintain, takes a ton of rage which 2 hand builds are already short on, and takes a lot of global cooldowns preventing you from doing other things.

Also if you are fighting a raid boss and you are recommending to have less then 142 hit then you are beyond help. Hit rating is by far the most efficient way to increase dps until you hit the cap. There is just no reason not to.

loadtoad
02-09-2008, 09:26 AM
Rampage is not meant to be used in a 2h fury slam build. tilly please link your armory with those stats. I really want to see it.

Lazeez
02-10-2008, 12:20 PM
So I have a question for you all, I just got Jinrok (sp) and I have decided to try out 33/28. My dilemma is, I am at 139 hit rating atm with the best equipped gear for each slot. I can shuffle some stuff around to get 142, but I would firstly definitely go over the hit cap, and secondly the actual gear replaced will be worse than what I have equipped. Are those 3 hit rating points worth it? Or I was thinking of regemming one of my sockets with a 4 hit + 4 agi gem, but I just would hate to gem Agi on my gear. Any opinions on that?

steps
02-11-2008, 12:10 AM
If you are that worried about the hit rating, then I would suggest getting the 4 str/4hit gem outta heroic SLab.

sabinsmain
02-12-2008, 02:49 PM
im trying to figure out when its best to have our fury war switch from fury to MS curently we are 5/5 hyjal and 5/9 BT he preovides on melee friendly fights a substantial amount of DPS...we do understand that it is essential at some point to have him switch over. just wondering when we should. any help would be appreciated. if needed i will provide armory links

Kazeyonoma
02-12-2008, 04:17 PM
the 3 hit rating imo won't contribute as much to your dps as losing str, I'd say its safe to not get it, but if you can get your hands on 4str/4hit i'd grab that as steps said.

Another thing is, when you're going 33/28 you're getting weapon mastery right? ;]

Kazeyonoma
02-12-2008, 04:20 PM
im trying to figure out when its best to have our fury war switch from fury to MS curently we are 5/5 hyjal and 5/9 BT he preovides on melee friendly fights a substantial amount of DPS...we do understand that it is essential at some point to have him switch over. just wondering when we should. any help would be appreciated. if needed i will provide armory links

depends on your overall physical dps of the raid.

If you have very little and lackluster physical dps. then he's arguable safer to stay fury.

If you bring anything more than 2 rogues, I can guarantee that 4% to those rogues, will already be more damage than he is putting as fury vs ms. he may start off low but with windfury and habitual play he'll get the swing of things and become decent dps again, while supplementing your whole raid. Think of it this way. Hunters, Hunter's Pets, Rogues, other fury warriors, enhancement shamans, feral druids, and even your tank. will put out 4% more dps overall.

I'd say your fury warrior will lose anywhere from 10-15% overall dps by switching. If that 10-15% of his dps, is overcome by the 4% combined across your physical dps raid makeup, its time to switch.

sabinsmain
02-15-2008, 04:06 AM
thanks for the advice he got cattys edge todays so its for sure hes going MS on sunday!!!! we run usually two hunters(one survival the other BM) 3 rogues and a enhance shammy for the melee group so hopefully itll pan out for EoS which is up next for us these next two days

oh ya im the main tank...so hopefully my TPS will go up as well

Reikoo
02-16-2008, 09:49 AM
Just curious do you believe that on the more mobile fights were you lose more DPS is the 4% you provide to those extra melee make up for the damage you could be doing as fury? Havent gotten a chance to test it out really so wouldnt know

Archangelneun
02-23-2008, 11:49 PM
Thank you for the facts, im currently a fury war done with kara, and i want to move on some new contents although my guild wasnt able to go real far in gruul most of our players are geared, i feel like trying this ms spec, but we re in a lack of tanks, i cant really re spec to prot (no one will be willing to help me get prot gear) but i feel like doing decent pvp until we really get into the new content such as ZA and good 25man, so should i re spec or am i keepin my build ►

thank you for the feedback...!

Loryega
02-24-2008, 04:58 PM
33/28 warrior (Mix of gear ranging from PVP to SSC to BT and MH) currently using Gorehowl (lol). I have been very disappointed with my DPS as of late. I realize that the viability of the MS warrior in the raid is to add that 4% to the physical damage of the raid (our guild normally has anywhere from 4-5 melee and 2 hunters). I have done excellent damage on "gimmick fights" where mobility is not an issue (1200ish DPS on Teron Gorefiend). My guildmates are not concerned with my DPS, I am. Will getting a new weapon raise my DPS substantially? It has been a long time since I did any arms. I normally hang around 900 DPS if not called to OT (was guild OT for almost a year). Will getting Soul Cleaver help my DPS jump a ton, or could there be something wrong with my rotation. Loryega on Runetotem server (my hit is at 120ish on armory, I was doing PVP and threw on some crit gear, I can get hit to 142 with no problem). Please gimme some feedback if possible.

Ewanar
02-25-2008, 01:25 AM
Is it worth doing this spec, if you don't have anything other than Karazhan and Gruuls?

Burchoid
03-11-2008, 10:06 AM
i have no respect for you any more "Meeks". your MS build is pure crap. For one, if your tank needs to rely on 4% increased threat then there are issues. Most raids ive seen dont have a lot of physical damage to even make much of a difference.

Oh grats, you're upping that rogues 1h hit for 500 to 520, woow. times a 20 minute fight may be hundreds more dps, but you'd be doing that much damage yourself easy with this spec.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czIbZVx0VMgoizio)

off the bat you're doing 20% more dps (10% increased attack speed + 10% more attack power) on top of rampage. The points in arms allows you to off tank if ever needed, and yields imp heroic strike for dps / aggro control.

i personally put 2 points in weapon mastery instead of imp execute due to the fact that you dont have precision in either spec.

stat goals are 100 hit rating, 3000AP self buffed / 35% crit strike in zerker

using a 2h ive still yet to see me miss any more than 5 times during a 10 minute fight with 80 hit rating.


His numbers are flawed but he is right... Anyone ever check out http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps2.pdf ??

The build with rampage/bloodthirst 2H will out DPS MS with the right gear anyday. Either build is helped out a ton by a WF totem.

Kaganda
03-11-2008, 03:14 PM
Is it worth doing this spec, if you don't have anything other than Karazhan and Gruuls?

Most things in Kara are bleed immune, so BF doesn't really help there. Personally I'd stick with DW Fury at that level.

Burchoid
03-12-2008, 10:42 AM
I've experimented with quite a few builds.

I find this one has THE most dps with Ilvl 128+ items.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czIbZVx0V0gRVuqo)

It allows you 10% more AP and 10% reduced threat (meaning you won't be threat capped as often), 250 AP from Rampage (Yes, its EASY to keep it up) and since you have precision (3% hit) you only need 95 hit rating, which again allows you to stack more AP and crit. You use Bloodthirst instead of MS. Bloodthirst's dmg is based off your AP and scales for HUGE dmg if you pop an AP trinket with bloodfury. Once you break 2K unbuffed AP, you will find Bloodthirst hitting for more than MS.

Shoot for at least 30% crit and 2500+ self buffed AP and you won't be disappointed.

The only thing this build won't give the raid is 4% increased physical damage, which works great for me since most of our DPS are casters.

loadtoad
03-12-2008, 10:52 AM
I've experimented with quite a few builds.

I find this one has THE most dps with Ilvl 128+ items.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czIbZVx0V0gRVuqo)

It allows you 10% more AP and 10% reduced threat (meaning you won't be threat capped as often), 250 AP from Rampage (Yes, its EASY to keep it up) and since you have precision (3% hit) you only need 95 hit rating, which again allows you to stack more AP and crit. You use Bloodthirst instead of MS. Bloodthirst's dmg is based off your AP and scales for HUGE dmg if you pop an AP trinket with bloodfury. Once you break 2K unbuffed AP, you will find Bloodthirst hitting for more than MS.

Shoot for at least 30% crit and 2500+ self buffed AP and you won't be disappointed.

The only thing this build won't give the raid is 4% increased physical damage, which works great for me since most of our DPS are casters.


You kinda missed the point of the post. Arms pve damage is based around a slam rotation not mortal strike. Maintaining a proper slam rotation as fury tends to be more difficult than arms. Also the bf buff is good if your raid has alot of physical dps. Arms pve is a raid dps build not a personal dps build.

Velr
03-13-2008, 08:26 AM
Hm.. nice guide... I noticed 2 things i'm not all that happy whit but don't know if it's me that is wrong:

1:
Sometimes i tend to have to much rage (lucky Sword or WF-Crits, extrarage due to Deathwish.. stuff like this). Then i carefully use HS instead of the Autoatack. This, for all i know, boosts my DPS a bit? Or am i doing a mistake here?


2.
Recklessness/Deathwish... The *woah* now i'm hitting the shit out of this guy Rotation :p.
You switch to 2 fast 1 handers and execute your enemy. I tend to start Deathiwsh, gather 100 Rage (should take about 2-3 Hits if nothing proccs and im on 0 rage) and then just: MS + Slamspamm. This basically gives a, for a 2 Hander, terribly fast Atackspeed (all 2 seconds Slam and MS thrown in there). If the rage is dumped (and the CD's still running) 1 Autohit will fill most of my Rage bar anyway and i can start over.
Is this bad? :p... I have 2 fast 1 Handers.. but i'm kinda lazy (and don't have 2 T6 nor imp. Execute right now).

Burchoid
03-16-2008, 02:57 PM
You kinda missed the point of the post. Arms pve damage is based around a slam rotation not mortal strike. Maintaining a proper slam rotation as fury tends to be more difficult than arms. Also the bf buff is good if your raid has alot of physical dps. Arms pve is a raid dps build not a personal dps build.

Ahh, true true. I guess what I was getting at is that 2H slam fury spec will out-dps the 2H slam arms spec with similar gear once at ilvl 128+.

Also, how do you suppose maintaining a fury slam rotation would be murch different than an arms slam rotation?

Arms:
Slam - no CD
MS - 6 second CD
WW - 10 second CD
Deathwish - 3 min CD (lasts 30 seconds)

Fury:
Slam - no CD
BT - 6 second CD
WW - 9 second CD
Rampage 6 second CD (lasts 30 seconds)

Rampage should be burned every 30 seconds, while Deathwish is every 3 minutes, but thats the only real difference in rotation. Its not the end of the world if you miss your Rampage by a rotation or two.

aesopsphere
03-22-2008, 01:17 AM
this build needs windfury totem to get the rage needed to compete on the dps charts. period....... otherwise in all purples it owns

KAOSFAYT
04-10-2008, 08:52 AM
Hey first off let me say thanks, i dont have the math skills or the time to figure these things that you provided out.

Now i do have a question however about using points in axe specialization rather than sword. i am a true 2h axe kinda Orc but i've read and considered your sword theories. i struggled last night for about an hour (like i said i lack the math skills and time) as i adjusted to 33/28 with the decision of whether to go with 5point in axe spec instead of sword or perhaps a combo of the two. if you and others would be so kind as to share your vast knowledge with me again it would really help a Orc brotha out. my concern is i have the Savage set and my hit rating is awful low (10 points i believe) while my crit in serker mode is 24%(noobish i know please dont bag on me, i worked for awhile to get my tank gear only to have to switch to dps for my guild) Im Thinking because of my crap gear i could use the extra crit % please let me as soon as yall have the time

Velr
04-10-2008, 11:40 PM
Axe is fine for Orc's.

enderwiggin
04-11-2008, 03:49 PM
My buddy is an orc warrior and has been having a great deal of trouble getting slam arms to work...yet i can do it pvp and pve on my wifes tauren..

he says the boss moving around just a hair ruins his rotation but i never notice it on the tauren pve or pvp...infact even if someone is running away if i spamstring them i can get the slam off before they move out of range.

This has gotta be a function of the tauren having longer reach right?


I try not to move around alot during a boss fight but...i get itchy..i guess

Velr
04-14-2008, 06:38 AM
Your buddy should just stand closer to the mob...

Kazeyonoma
04-14-2008, 09:38 AM
your buddy needs to just practice more. I'm an orc, and have the same abilities as you in both pve and pvp. hamstring gg.

Salketh
04-16-2008, 05:12 PM
what do you guys think of this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LhbIzAiZVV0V0gRVu)

DeWhiskeys
04-22-2008, 05:52 AM
what do you guys think of this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LhbIzAiZVV0V0gRVu)
Your spec clearly falls into the "personal DPS" category, thus you start to compete with DW Fury spec, and not with Meeks' one. This way, your DPS is not going that far.
Taking 2/2 in BF place you under another perspective and justify your presence in a raid, despite the "low" arms DPS. This is strictly on the "math" side of the game.

In any case, i'd choose Imp Demo Shout, instead of Unbridled Wrath.

bye,

stoebz
04-29-2008, 10:09 AM
what do you guys think of this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LhbIzAiZVV0V0gRVu)

This is a personal dps build. If you're concerned about personal dps, spec 17/44/0 and DW :) MS warriors arent really brought to a raid for their own personal dps, but more for the buffs they bring. IMO Spec into blood frenzy, get a solarians sapphire and help your raid out.

bulldozer
05-02-2008, 07:28 AM
hi,

i got the torch of demand of ROS-BT... i'm wondering wats the best talent to go for it.

or basically 2h MACES just suck for warrior pve wise

i can't go 5 point for mace.. cause can't stun boss.. where 5 points of sword is imba

careagain
05-04-2008, 03:12 PM
actually 2hmace isnt that bad, wat ur missing is when it procs u also get 7 rage and even if the boss/trash is immune to stun, u will still get that 7rage. I know its nothing spectacular but its still good.

lif
05-05-2008, 07:14 PM
actually 2hmace isnt that bad, wat ur missing is when it procs u also get 7 rage and even if the boss/trash is immune to stun, u will still get that 7rage. I know its nothing spectacular but its still good.

I think people mean that maces won't compare anywhere CLOSE to Sword/Axe, 7 rage isn't anywhere nearth worth another hit or 5% extra crit.

stompingbull
05-06-2008, 07:02 AM
I used world breaker for a while and the dps was okay, a bit better than gorehowl. Basically use whichever is your best weapon, it may take some raids to test it out. Mace can do ok if it is a good mace, I would say world breaker and over. anything under that level your better of grabbing an s1 weapon if you have nothing else.

Kahmal
05-06-2008, 07:58 AM
how much DPS should a SSC level MS Warrior need to put out to be useful?

stompingbull
05-06-2008, 08:20 AM
to be useful?
The blood frenzy buff alone adds 4% to all physical damage casters, so I would say take all your physical damage, take 4% of that from them.
Lets say this puts your avg physical dps at 700 dps
With an avg of 150 dps added to each from bf, and you have four of them total.
4 x 150 = 600 dps
so to equal your four physical dps'rs you actualy need that same bf warrior to only do 100 dps to be doing as much damage as them.

Though I doubt this is your question, if you are asking about how much dps should they be able to do at t5 level, then the answer is a well geared t5 warrior can do around 1k to 1.2k dps on a boss with windfury, kings, leader of the pack and trueshot aura.

Though just starting out in t5 they will prob not be at hit cap and be using mostly pvp gear and blues. I would say if they can come within 100 dps of your other melee then they have def earned their spot. Just make sure they are speced into blood frenzy, and are as close to hit 142 hit as they can get, but without gemming for it. s3 gear plus some ssc drops or badge rewards will put them at good t5-t6 level, but s1 will need a few craftables and drops to hit the hit mark and still do decent dps. your question just has so many factors in it it is hard to answer easily.

Erithol
05-06-2008, 09:41 AM
Hello all, first time poster. I was reviewing this guide and found this poster had already summorized my two main questions, quoted below.

For reference, I am in BT level gear, hit capped, human/shard of contempt and have close to 1100 ArP w/o Exec proc. I typically log in pvp gear if any decide to armory me.


Hm.. nice guide... I noticed 2 things i'm not all that happy whit but don't know if it's me that is wrong:

1:
Sometimes i tend to have to much rage (lucky Sword or WF-Crits, extrarage due to Deathwish.. stuff like this). Then i carefully use HS instead of the Autoatack. This, for all i know, boosts my DPS a bit? Or am i doing a mistake here?


2.
Recklessness/Deathwish... The *woah* now i'm hitting the shit out of this guy Rotation :p.
You switch to 2 fast 1 handers and execute your enemy. I tend to start Deathiwsh, gather 100 Rage (should take about 2-3 Hits if nothing proccs and im on 0 rage) and then just: MS + Slamspamm. This basically gives a, for a 2 Hander, terribly fast Atackspeed (all 2 seconds Slam and MS thrown in there). If the rage is dumped (and the CD's still running) 1 Autohit will fill most of my Rage bar anyway and i can start over.
Is this bad? :p... I have 2 fast 1 Handers.. but i'm kinda lazy (and don't have 2 T6 nor imp. Execute right now).


With respect to the first point, I routinely find myself with excess rage and have been using heroic strike instead of auto-swings to use it up. I typcially do this when I am over 60 rage and keeping MS/WW on cooldown. Furthermore, I am rarely required to OT as arms so I have begun taking 3 points in Imp. Heroic Strike, and only 2 in parry. I don't get the 'feeling' I am hurting my dps but would love some input from those with more experience.

As for the second point, I just don't know. I've tried both and the only 'evidence', which is admittedly anecdotal - I pull aggro and die around the 1-2% mark more often staying with 2h and keeping up my rotation, only executing at 60+ rage.

Thanks for any input, I am glad I found this site.

Kazeyonoma
05-06-2008, 09:55 AM
Really, if you have the rage to spare, heroic strike will always generate more dps than a regular white hit. the risk is that putting heroic strike into a standard rotation would give the impression that its okay to heroic strike a lot, and in most scenarios this isn't true. Good players will squeeze heroic strikes in when they can, but this isn't "standard rotation"

By all means, rage dump when you can, its why its called a rage dump.

For the second point, I'm still fairly confident that unless you have CRAZY amounts of AP to make your slam outscale execute damage, I think going to 2 fast 1 handers is best. But there is a point when your AP is buffed that you can slam for more damage than an execute of equal rage.

That's actually quite easy to determine damage wise:

Assuming Imp Execute spec'd:
20 rage to slam = 10 rage to execute + 10 more to convert to damage:
(925 + 210) = 1135 damage non crit

Most slam's will probably hit for more than this already, so I guess it doesn't require much AP to outscale the damage. I think the argument then is that you get a more solid stream of rage form 2 fast 1 handers, and since execute has no cooldown, and it doesn't reset the swing timer, you can mash it and get more executes than you could slams, since slamspam would likely put you at times of 0 rage.

nomopofomo
05-13-2008, 03:22 AM
Hello, Meeks.

I am posting to motivate you to rewrite this guide so it is worded more clearly.

I have many questions.

I would be very glad if I could assist you in any way.

uruloki
05-13-2008, 07:32 AM
whats the effect of high latency on this kind of build? 400-500ish to give an example

MasterWolf
05-15-2008, 01:19 PM
Makes it harder to play. You want optimal latency for slam builds.

Tatt
05-22-2008, 05:04 PM
I don't know squat about arms PVE, but if somone is nice enough to write all this stuff down for noobs like me then anyone who feels like flaming it should go DIAF. Questions are fine, but have some respect for people's work and effort.

Corbusier
05-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Hello, Meeks.

I am posting to motivate you to rewrite this guide so it is worded more clearly.

I have many questions.

I would be very glad if I could assist you in any way.

huh?

nomopofomo
05-25-2008, 11:38 PM
:rolleyes:

Anyways...

How do we know when one stat's value becomes more important than another's?

I also thought that maybe axes could do more damage than swords if you were to keep the strength gemming mentality and choose gear that favored armor penetration and attack power over crit?

Dan Gallatin
05-26-2008, 02:31 AM
:rolleyes:

Anyways...

How do we know when one stat's value becomes more important than another's?

I also thought that maybe axes could do more damage than swords if you were to keep the strength gemming mentality and choose gear that favored armor penetration and attack power over crit?


this has already been gone over... Maxdps.com (http://maxdps.com/warrior/arms.php)

and 5% Crit will never out dps an additional swing (that also has your normal chance to crit and can proc off WF and any other attacks you make) when looking at gear of equal levels ie. t6 vs 70 blues

additionally i am a fury warrior 17/44 in T4+ gear and my guild is starting progression into TK and SSC and i am currently the top in melee dps (often all dps) in the raid and am looking for a way to help my guild progress more. we have an arms warrior who usually comes with us already (we take alot of melee) ... you know what nvm im just going to stay fury cus we already have the arms warrior and i know he doesn't plan on going fury anytime soon so i'll just let him do his job

nomopofomo
05-27-2008, 04:35 AM
this has already been gone over... Maxdps.com (http://maxdps.com/warrior/arms.php)

I doubt that meeks uses Maxdps.com to make his gear decisions.


and 5% Crit will never out dps an additional swing (that also has your normal chance to crit and can proc off WF and any other attacks you make) when looking at gear of equal levels ie. t6 vs 70 blues

My hypothesis was that it could be possible for axe specialization to outperform sword specialization by stacking attack power and armor penetration gear and gemming for strength and axe specialization would make up for the lost crit. I somehow doubt that you've conducted any significant research or even have the means to refute that.


additionally i am a fury warrior 17/44 in T4+ gear and my guild is starting progression into TK and SSC and i am currently the top in melee dps (often all dps) in the raid and am looking for a way to help my guild progress more. we have an arms warrior who usually comes with us already (we take alot of melee) ... you know what nvm im just going to stay fury cus we already have the arms warrior and i know he doesn't plan on going fury anytime soon so i'll just let him do his job

Lurker is serious business.

Tatt
05-27-2008, 09:43 AM
"I somehow Doubt that you've conducted any significant research or even have the means to refute that."

WTF??? Does being rude and condescending make your comments any more attractive? How do you know what he has done or how he has found it out?

klor
05-27-2008, 09:52 AM
I doubt that meeks uses Maxdps.com to make his gear decisions.



My hypothesis was that it could be possible for axe specialization to outperform sword specialization by stacking attack power and armor penetration gear and gemming for strength and axe specialization would make up for the lost crit. I somehow doubt that you've conducted any significant research or even have the means to refute that.



Lurker is serious business.


The official wow forums are this way...
WoW Forums -> Forum Index (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com)

Please leave your arrogant attitude there.

Kazeyonoma
05-27-2008, 09:58 AM
I doubt that meeks uses Maxdps.com to make his gear decisions.



My hypothesis was that it could be possible for axe specialization to outperform sword specialization by stacking attack power and armor penetration gear and gemming for strength and axe specialization would make up for the lost crit. I somehow doubt that you've conducted any significant research or even have the means to refute that.



Lurker is serious business.

The basis of the math is this. it's 5% additional chance to crit in axe spec. that doesn't stack or change the base mechanic of your other 30% or what not crit, it's just another 5% chance. Sword spec has that same 5% chance to proc a second swing. Comparatively, your 5% allows you to do double damage 5% more often than without it. Sword 5% allows you to do double damage by proc'ing 2 swings, 5% of the time more often than without it. However, sword procs CAN crit, which means that with that same 5% chance to do double damage, you likewise have a chance to deal 3x or 4x damage from a 5% proc. In higher end gear, this proves to be even better because your crit is already above 35% raid buffed, so having more crit no longer serves the purpose of keeping flurry up.

There isn't a whole lot of math needed to prove this. You have a raw 5% chance to crit increase from axes, and you have a raw 5% chance to swing again after an attack from swords.

And Please, take this time to think before you respond, you're reply is somewhat harsh, and you make statements such as "I doubt you've made any research", when you can't quantify that with any research of your own. Likewise, what does it matter if Meeks uses maxdps.com or not. It is a good site to get a general idea of what upgrades you can get. It's not perfect, but nothing on the internet is for gear listing. You have to have the knowledge to make the smart choices based on your own gear. But maxdps.com is a good resource to find out what may or may not be an upgrade.

And who are you to say "lurker is serious business" in your sarcastic tone? Many people raid Lurker as progression. If you're past that, good for you, what right do you have to demean their attempts at progression?

nomopofomo
05-27-2008, 06:52 PM
What right do you have to reprimand me?

Karih
05-27-2008, 07:36 PM
He's a Tank Spot CM.

Unlike the WoW forums they work very hard to keep this place an enjoyable place to read and participate. I for one appreciate the effort that they make to ensure the elitest attitudes of the WoW forums don't show up here.

Corbusier
05-27-2008, 09:41 PM
What right do you have to reprimand me?
As a CM, he has every right.

Krenian
05-28-2008, 02:57 PM
Hey Meeks,

Always a pleasure to see you write guides. I've followed your Fury guide and it has not let me down yet with the damage I was able to pull out as Fury. But for a long time now, I've given up on Fury because I really was bored with it and am now Arms. I've raided as a 33/28 spec and absolutely adore it. It's great to see you take the plunge into this and find out if it's actually a viable spec.

Now, you have a guide stating what to do and what it offers, but something I'd like to see is a section showing raid leaders exactly why you would want to bring an Arms warrior instead of a Fury Warrior. I'm having a hard time convincing people that Arms is a great way to raid 25 man especially when asked what I can bring to the table. A section with the pros and cons of fury versus arms in this guide would be great.

Keep up the great work as always!

nomopofomo
05-29-2008, 12:31 AM
As a CM, he has every right.

In the same way the president has the right to go to war, no questions asked?

Enough of this. All I want to know is how you know when relative values shift.

Corbusier
05-29-2008, 07:12 AM
In the same way the president has the right to go to war, no questions asked?

Enough of this. All I want to know is how you know when relative values shift.

This isn't a damn democracy.

And it's called a spreadsheet, look it up.

Kazeyonoma
05-29-2008, 10:27 AM
In the same way the president has the right to go to war, no questions asked?

First of all, don't strawman this, I wasn't throwing my clout around to reprimand you. I was reprimanding you from the same standpoint anyone who has information would to someone who is challenging the status quo without his own backing. I was doing it from a community member's standpoint not a community manager's standpoint, that's why i didn't even reply to your blatant attempt at a flame.

I'm here to prevent flaming, think of me more as police, and not the goddamned president. Don't make stupid comparisons. I'm not the president, and this isn't a democracy. If you want to flame, take it elsewhere. If you want to find out information, don't get defensive when someone gives you concrete evidence. I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but your last 2 responses here are pushing my nerve. Wise up, Shut the hell up, and we can all get along.

Doomstrike
05-30-2008, 06:59 PM
Soo since were talking about maxdps.com, and this is bit odd but with my current gear
(bt/hy/sw)

It says that cataclysm edge will do less damage then soulcleaver. I'm a fan of swords myself just no luck with cata, never droped once and now we stopped doing hyjal

sooo can anyone help me with that? though i'll be getting the pole arm on next drop from sunwell..but still curious

nomopofomo
06-01-2008, 09:22 PM
Soo since were talking about maxdps.com, and this is bit odd but with my current gear
(bt/hy/sw)

It says that cataclysm edge will do less damage then soulcleaver. I'm a fan of swords myself just no luck with cata, never droped once and now we stopped doing hyjal

sooo can anyone help me with that? though i'll be getting the pole arm on next drop from sunwell..but still curious

By just looking at the two weapons side by side the sword has better stats so if maxdps.com still thinks the axe is better, then it is probably taking specialization into account and may not correctly model sword specialization since it is supposedly better(?).

Kaz: pfft.

Kazeyonoma
06-02-2008, 10:02 AM
maxdps i believe will take into the account that axe spec gives 5% crit for spec, but doesn't accurately calculate the damage gained by procs of any sort including sword procs.

And nomo, if you're want to keep up this attitude that's your decision, but I'm trying to approach this with you from a mature standpoint. Keep this up and I'll just ban you.

Tatt
06-02-2008, 10:09 AM
Do you realize nomo that your attitude is pretty much guaranteeing that no matter what you say people will ignore it? You have become so obnoxious that your tone has completely destroyed any credibility you might have once possessed.

BronxMP
06-02-2008, 05:38 PM
I have been Fury Warrior for 2 years and based on trying to be recruited for Arena teams I have switched over to Arms. (yes, I know this is Arms PVE discussion but the knowledge base is outstanding that you provide) Which is better for me with 1100-1300 latency- Fury 2 handed (Slam rotation) or Arms MS (Slam rotation)?

Thanks.

BronxMP
06-02-2008, 05:41 PM
Latency is high based on my deployment to Iraq, in 4 months it will be better but till then it is what it is.

Kazeyonoma
06-03-2008, 12:00 AM
definitely don't go for an arms slam build if you have bad latency. you have to time your slams immediately after white hits, and if your latency can put you as much as 1 second behind the actual swing, you're effectively adding 1 second to your swing timer. not worth it imo, stick with fury.

Cryof
06-11-2008, 03:04 PM
I am an Arms warrior on the Server Deathwing for Inertia 4/6 SWP. One things i notice with most your guys' specs is that you get Unbridled Wrath on the fury tree. Since your main role is supposed to be buffing physical damage you should also pick up imp demo instead. It will allow warlocks to put up Curse of Recklesness and give the raid the 800 armor pen as well.

This is the spec i use.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LI0xzAboxMdZVx0V0gRc)

Kazeyonoma
06-11-2008, 04:20 PM
I normally suggest imp demo or Booming Voice instead of the 1 rage talent. It's great for Fury because you swing so many times but for a big slow 2hander like ours, it doesn't pay off.

I agree, Unbridled Wrath is trash for two handers. Imp Demo is definitely better, and booming voice keeping up longer shouts is beneficial in its own way as well.

Cryof
06-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Ya also just remember that when you switch to your 2 fast weapons, if your sword spec which you most likely are, try to make sure your MH weapon is a sword so you still get the extra swing proc, really makes a difference in execute range.

Rashul
06-19-2008, 10:43 AM
Heroic strike is never used ever for the slam rotation

I'm new to PvE Arms, as I'm generally Prot for raiding, but I like to spec dps for Kara farm runs.

At any rate, I was wondering why you wouldn't que up Heroic Strike on your auto attacks, with enough rage, and still Slam on the timer?

Kazeyonoma
06-19-2008, 01:37 PM
Slam doesn't have a timer, so you'll never do it.

Meeks i think later corrected himself that he can Heroic Strike when you have like... 50+ rage.

Rashul
06-19-2008, 01:41 PM
Slam doesn't have a timer, so you'll never do it.

Meeks i think later corrected himself that he can Heroic Strike when you have like... 50+ rage.

I meant the Quartz timer. :)

I was thinking that if you are waiting for the auto attack to time your Slams, why can't that auto attack be a Heroic Strike, when at 50+ rage?

Kazeyonoma
06-19-2008, 01:44 PM
that's exactly right. if you have over 50 rage, then sure you can probably heroic strike slam, the problem then is that because it becomes a heroic strike, you generate no rage that rotation, so your next white hit, will generate only enough rage to slam, if it crits, maybe slam + extra rage but not enough to carry a whirlwind/MS.

That's normally the problem with doing HS at 50 rage, if you're at 70rage it's much safer.

Rashul
06-19-2008, 02:34 PM
that's exactly right. if you have over 50 rage, then sure you can probably heroic strike slam, the problem then is that because it becomes a heroic strike, you generate no rage that rotation, so your next white hit, will generate only enough rage to slam, if it crits, maybe slam + extra rage but not enough to carry a whirlwind/MS.

That's normally the problem with doing HS at 50 rage, if you're at 70rage it's much safer.

Awesome, thanks for the info. :)

Krigermannen
06-19-2008, 05:54 PM
Hello. I am an arms warrior, and I just recently joined a MH guild.
My crit is only at about 28% in berserker stance, which I think is rather low, so I'm looking into an axe.
So basically my question is: Harbringer ( 150 badge-reward )/s2 axe or s1/s2 sword, with my current crit?
I was thinking that the Harbringer has a higher average damage, and I'd gain around 6% crit, putting me even closer to 100% flurry uptime.
The sword, on the other hand, has a lower average damage, but the extra attack is pretty... Nice :P

My stats are:

0 ArP ( ouch, I know, getting s3 chest next week )
Hitcapped
~1700 AP unbuffed

Kazeyonoma
06-20-2008, 01:46 AM
Swords will be better overall DPS in the long run, but because the Blade is a much higher ilvl than s2 sword, I'd go with the Blade of Harbingers.

Krigermannen
06-20-2008, 03:03 AM
Yeah, seems like a good idea. And I'm kind of a big-yellow-crit ehm *cough*whore*cough* :P
So axe spec will provide more crit.

Kazeyonoma
06-20-2008, 09:21 AM
If Cat's Edge drops for you though, you'll probably want to make the switch to use that instead. Cat's Edge is just godly.

Krigermannen
06-20-2008, 09:55 AM
Yes, I'll definetely do that. But for now I don't see that guild downing Archimonde. We're working on third boss together with another guild atm.

Cryof
06-25-2008, 05:00 PM
I'm new to PvE Arms, as I'm generally Prot for raiding, but I like to spec dps for Kara farm runs.

At any rate, I was wondering why you wouldn't que up Heroic Strike on your auto attacks, with enough rage, and still Slam on the timer?

I personally rarely que up the heroic strike unless its on a fight like muru or felmyst where your constantly taking damage to feed you rage. Its just more important to make sure you have the rage to go threw your slam cycle instead of doing heroic strikes.

SqueeG
06-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Last time I used quartz, it's swing timer was rather terrible. Especially for warriors, and specifically for Slam.

It may have been changed to be more precise, but LD50_abar is absolutely perfect for Slam, and DWing warrs, and probably just about anyone who wants or needs to watch their swing times.

It's precise, and it works. It may not be as 'pretty' as quartz. But it does it's job.

Kazeyonoma
06-30-2008, 09:32 AM
You can use whichever one you need, I like quartz because it takes into account latency and thus I can time my swings well with it, but I've never tried your addon, so I can't shoot it down =]

Ukk
06-30-2008, 11:44 AM
Somewhere around 2.3 I lost my swing timer out of quartz - I just can't get it to appear. =( I have reloaded and tried all manner of adjustments, even though I am pretty clueless. It's not necessary as prot, but I want it back since I have amassed enough dps gear to have some fun with Despair.

Any ideas? (sorry for hijack)

SqueeG
06-30-2008, 01:31 PM
You can use whichever one you need, I like quartz because it takes into account latency and thus I can time my swings well with it, but I've never tried your addon, so I can't shoot it down =]
Sorry if I came off hostile. I didn't mean to >.O

My experience with quartz was that it was just 'too much'. And at the time, several months ago, when I tested it versus LD50_abar, quartz was actually wrong on swing timing when using slam. xD LD50 is also specifically a swing timer, nothing more, no bells and whistles. Those were my reasons for suggesting it (since i haven't seen anyone else do so xD )


Somewhere around 2.3 I lost my swing timer out of quartz - I just can't get it to appear. =( I have reloaded and tried all manner of adjustments, even though I am pretty clueless.)
Just to make sure... you updated the addon, right?

Ukk
06-30-2008, 06:26 PM
yeah, several times.

Rishkkin
07-07-2008, 08:12 AM
Move to LD50, you won't come back, I never did... :-D

Cryof
07-08-2008, 05:09 AM
Cat's Edge vs. Season 4 Sword for pve.....debate? O.o

Kazeyonoma
07-08-2008, 09:45 AM
uh oh, lets look at them, then I'll Edit this post to reflect:
Cataclysm's Edge vs. Brutal Gladiator's Greatsword - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=35015)

Cat's still kills it in terms of pure damage, due to the ignore armor and str it gives over the other. But if you need the hit or crit, the s4 looks to be a pretty strong alternative. Not to mention having a higher top end, and a slower speed means it'll hit like a dump truck, and it has it's own share of ignore armor. Just a lot of itemization used on resil and stam.

I think if you have Cat's you can probably safely keep it, but if you don't yet, but can grab s4, do eeeet.

Just looked at it from maxdps.com's sheet and it's got the s4 16 dps higher than the cat's, with my numbers plugged in. I guess s4 is the clear upgrade. Someone with a dps spreadsheet can probably do it better than maxdps though, but I'm fairly certain a 16dps increase will be a net increase regardless of how you throw it around. s4 > cat's edge =(

ebs2002
07-08-2008, 02:08 PM
Slower weapon = more DPS from slams and mortal strikes.

Also, while the S4 "wastes" itemization points on an extra 17stamina and 33 resilience, remember that the more stats on an item, the better it spends its itemization. S4 has +hit, +crit, +str and +arp, Cat's just has +arp and +str. 25str and 237arp = 58itemization points, 50crit and 19hit = 69itemization points.

That and you can't ignore the fact that S4 has 2.3dps in white damage over the cat's

Kazeyonoma
07-08-2008, 03:36 PM
that's what I was thinking ebs. good call.

Tedd
07-09-2008, 08:27 AM
*note* I am running under the assumption that the people reading my post will be in mostly t6 content, and not have access to the amazing polearm of awesome awesomeness or be an orc.

I have also noticed that the Brut glads sword will be an upgrade over cat's.

Going a bit further (not just counting points), there are a few advantages over cats:

1. Armor pen on everything else can get you in to negatives in some fights, the extra 200 can easily be made up by gear that:

2. You can replace your extra hit garbage with big AP bonuses, or armor pen. Seriously, getting away from Naj`tabi being a warrior's boot of choice, or getting rid of your master assassin's ring for something with strength is awesometastic.

3. Gem for strength! Think about how much str you lose to pick up 50CR? Just seems to fit with the low crit on t6.

4. Its slower. Your raid leader can put you back in the drums group. Do I really need to say anything else about this?

Agorwal
07-09-2008, 11:44 AM
Now mine is just a question of curiousity but what would be better for slam spec dps. The Blade of Harbingers - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34891) or Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33478)

Kazeyonoma
07-09-2008, 01:34 PM
hrm, tough call, if you're an orc i'd probably go with blade, but if you're already sitting in a lot of crit, and not an orc, jin'rohk looks plausible O_o.

ebs2002
07-09-2008, 03:17 PM
Now mine is just a question of curiousity but what would be better for slam spec dps. The Blade of Harbingers or Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse

My first inclination was to go with the blade on both accounts; higher ilvl (138 vs 146), more dps stats allocated and although the AP was a little lower, the crit and haste more than made up for it.

Then I realized the weapon speeds, and said "woah woah woah, the 3.7 speed will make for bigger MSes and slams!"

Then I looked at the damage ranges:
The 3.7spd only does 5dmg less on the low end, and 7dmg less on the high end, each swing. Average of 6dmg difference each swing.

Finally, considering the axe spec vs sword spec: well, axe spec for imp slam is usually the better choice, right? (Note, this is theoretical as I've never tried either :-x)

My take: Blade's better for everyone, but if I had Jin'rohk I would look elsewhere to spend my badges until there wasn't anything else left to get.

Deadaclysm
07-16-2008, 11:27 AM
Hey guys ! Been watching this thread for a while and I must say it's one of the best source of theory for anyone wanting to be a dps war :)

Now for my question: I'm a 33-28 slam spec pve arms war decently geared got za 2h sword, hit capped 1714ap and 36%crit in zerker stance. Heres my armory for details :
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&n=Deadaclysm)

I'm really confused about armor pen crit and haste rating. I know that slam can't be used with a lot of haste since it would screw the rotation so I've been wondering which shoulder to use t5 dps shoulders, swiftsteel shoulders or the pauldrons of Gruesome fate. T5 shoulders have decent crit and hit (37,58%crit, capped hit) with them. The pauldrons of Gruesome fate make me loose almost 1.5% crit but I would still be hit capped and gain 150armor pen to be at ( 504armorPen). And finally the swiftsteel shoulders would give me some haste (my wep would be at 3.5 ) I would gain some APower still be hit capped but would loose crit to be at 36.35% crit.

Thx for reply!

Kazeyonoma
07-16-2008, 01:48 PM
Either the t5 or the gruesome fate would be best for you, the swiftsteel really aren't that good.

My opinion for you right now though is to find ways to boost your AP more, 36% crit is more than enough at this point, you want more and more AP, the more you can get the better. Armor Penetration is a great stat, but it is always better to get AP over ArP until you have insane levels of gear.

Deadaclysm
07-16-2008, 02:01 PM
thx a lot man :)

Sanelora
07-23-2008, 11:46 PM
For one, if your tank needs to rely on 4% increased threat then there are issues.

Late on the game being in DPS and reading this but DUDE. have you not read the other parts of this site? if you have, you would know, especially from what Xav has written: YOUR THREAT IS NEVER "FINE" - It only stands to be improved. the 4% quoted it physical damage so it is only ever 4% of the threat from damage.

If you want to be blatantly insulting, go somewhere else. your contribution was crap and if you are questioning the author, please have some EXCEPTIONALLY solid stats and specs with proof to back it up

Crimsonstorm
07-31-2008, 02:13 PM
Regarding weapon speeds and haste for arms:

The ideal situation is to end up with a hasted, flurried, weapon speed of 2.5 seconds. This means that your cycle of autoattack+slam takes about 3 seconds.

There are two positive benefits of this:
1) The correct time to slam comes up at roughly the time when your GCD is up, making it easy to time. In fact, if your attack speed is right at 2.5 seconds, you can simply spam buttons, going slam, ms, slam, ww, slam, ms, slam, shout, repeat, and the timing will just work! (However, you need flurry to not fall off).

2) A slower cycle will result in less special attacks. For example, if your hasted attack speed is actually 3.0, then you end up like:

0: Auto/Slam
0.5: slam finished
1.5: MS
3.5 Auto/slam
4: Slam finished
5: WW
7: Auto/slam
7.5: Slam Finished
8: MS
10.5: Auto/Slam
11: slam finished
12: Shout
14: Auto/slam

Your cycle includes the same number of abilities but now takes 14 seconds instead of 12. So while your slams, ms's and whirlwinds are a bit bigger (but not the full %age bigger for stuff other than slam due to normalization), you get less of them. This results in sigificantly less dps AND a harder cycle to manage.


Therefore, you actually want to get your attack speed to pretty much exactly 2.5, to be optimal. You should have 15% flurry haste with 90-95% uptime given sufficient crit. Additional haste effects are also beneficial, for example, with a 3.5 speed weapon like Cat's Edge or the badge Axe, 15% flurry brings the speed to 3.04. To bring the speed to 2.5 you need 21.6% haste, or like 340 rating or so. Essentially, any normal amount of haste is fine.

My raid groups tend to contain 3-4 drums users, so I get 80 extra haste rating most of the time.

Dragonspine trophy's value and effect on how much haste you should use depends on things like weapon speed and wether you have drums up:

Dragonspine trophy (325 haste proc). If you use this, then you will be at around the perfect speed with a 2.5 weapon when it procs (and not when it doesnt). If you use dragonspine trophy then you shouldnt use haste items!! Alternately, with Dragonspine trophy and a slower weapon like 3.7 speed, you actually have room to benefit from Drums of battle plus a small amount more haste (about 40-50 more haste beyond the drums, to be precise.

Optimal amounts of haste rating IN ADDITION to the dragonspine proc, to bring weapons of various speeds to 2.5 seconds:

3.4 speed: Some of the dragonspine haste is wasted. Especially if you have drums, dont use Dragonspine with a weapon of this speed.
3.5 speed: ~18 haste (i.e., if you use drums, youre wasting a lot of haste).
3.6 speed: ~72 haste (Drums covers it, dont use haste items).
3.7 speed: ~127 haste (Drums + 47 more haste from items).
3.8 speed: ~182 haste (Drums + 102 more from items).

Dragonspine is a bit suboptimal for fast weapons, like 3.4-3.5 speed, especially when also using drums. Dragonspine is very good with slower weapons like 3.6+. However, you must react to the shifts in your swing speed and not screw up the slam timing when it procs.


Another option is haste potions. A haste potion is like an on demand Dragonspine proc, with an extra 75 haste also. Haste potions are best with 3.7+ speed weapons, or 3.6 and no drums.

If you use dragonspine, you should time haste potions to occur when dragonspine has not procced.

Also there is Heroism/Bloodlust. Ideally you want this at 20% for executing, as executing becomes good if you can stack sufficient haste effects together (otherwise continuing the slam rotation is best). During heroism/bloodlust, any speed weapon will become 2.5 or under.


Personally, I use Solarian's Sapphire and Shard of Contempt, and not dragonspine. This means that I can use haste items + drums without having times when they are being ineffective. When using Dragonspine you tend to want weapons to be as slow as possible because youll be at 2.5 speed anyway during dragonspine procs, and getting bigger hits and slams. When NOT using dragonspine it tends to be best to use a weapon with speed in the 3.4-3.5 area, and haste becomes a reasonable stat, reducing the time of your cycle.


For execute phase, stacking flurry + bloodlust + haste potion gives a very fast attack speed supporting executes each GCD. For example, 15% flurry + 30% bloodlust + 480 haste rating from potion +drums gives a weapon speed of 51.3% of normal, turnign a 3.5 speed weapon into 1.79. With the haste from T6 belt and boots, its 1.74. When the haste potion runs out it goes to 2.16 (with the two t6 pieces).

Once bloodlust runs out you should definitely go back to standard slam rotation, but while your speed is very fast like that, exceuting each GCD can be good.

Hebzbah
08-01-2008, 11:08 PM
but recently I have seen a few warriors drop improved slam for improved execute and pick up improved heroic strike. I have not experience with the latter build so can not offer good criticism but it is not something I would recommend. I will be giving the build a try myself sometime soon to see how it feels and after that I then I will add more information to how the build preforms.

4) Heroic Strike Rotation

While I have never used this build I understand the basic fundamentals which I will lay down here for now. In the future I will try it out myself but in the mean time if anyone reading this has used it themselves please feel free to expand and explain your rationale for it.

Heroic strike is never used ever for the slam rotation but it does have dps benefits past the 176 damage the tool tip says it adds. Heroic strike turns a white attack that can glance into a yellow attack that can not be glanced and gets bonus crit damage. The goal here is to limit damage lost to glancing blows and have rage to hit MS and WW every time they cooldown, something which a slam rotation rarely allows.

Can I get a follow-up on this?

I'm a ZA level raider using Blade of the Harbingers. I've always used the heroic strike build because the Slam build looked difficult to me, especially since my latency was consistently inconsistent.
Recently I've moved and got a more stable internet connection and tried the slam build a bit. It's gonna take some getting used to, especially on mobile fights.

How much is the difference in personal DPS between the two builds? Keep in mind that it's impossible to slam perfectly, you can never do the rotation perfectly on time, whereas a HS build is much easier to play and more forgiving to moving around.

This is the build I used when I was HS'ing.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LG0xkIioMMdZVx0VMxRc)

Kazeyonoma
08-03-2008, 01:41 AM
even if you're off by a small margin, with a swing timing mod, you can be within .2 seconds of your white swing.

Hebzbah
08-07-2008, 01:32 PM
even if you're off by a small margin, with a swing timing mod, you can be within .2 seconds of your white swing.

Yeah that doesn't really answer my question.

Krig
08-09-2008, 09:03 PM
I know the axe spec vs. Sword spec arguement as already been discussed several times on this thread. However there is something I'd like to bring up. People have dismissed axe spec as a 5% chance to do double damage, but sword spec being a 5% chance to do double damage that can crit. However this doesn't mean it WILL crit, and axe spec is more than double damage (if you take into account impale, deep wounds, and flurry).

I'm not saying this makes axe spec better than sword spec better than axe spec at all. It's just something to look at.

My question is, I am an Orc, if I have a sword and axe of equal value, would it be remotely worth it to go axes for the additional 5 expertise? Can any number crunchers help me out on this one? Also what are an arms warriors best consumables? Is there anything better than flask of relentless assault and adamantite sharpening stone? (provided there is no WF totem of course).

Thanks in advance.

Ukyo
08-09-2008, 09:12 PM
Basically, it's always going to be Swords > Axe because everything that affects axe spec outside the weapon spec, affects sword spec also, so in the end you could end up with 5% of double damage plus modifiers (BF, Impale, Metagem, etc) but it's always down to choice. If you think that your crit is too low, go for Axes, the 5 expertise isn't that much, but if you don't have any or have too little, it might make a difference.

On the consumables department, sadly, no, there isn't anything better outside situational buffs (Blessed Coating in sunwell)

Daavos
08-13-2008, 01:44 PM
What meta gem should I be using for pve arms? +12 aglity & +3% crit damage? Not sure which is the best meta.

Kazeyonoma
08-13-2008, 02:51 PM
yes, +12 agi and 3% crit will prove to be your best dps gem, but if you are cheap or hard pressed to squeeze 2 blue gems into your gear (like I am) i like the +24ap/xx meta as well, it's not nearly as good, but it's the next best gem you can grab probably.

Cryof
08-18-2008, 02:08 AM
In PvE gear i can almost guarantee that there is at least a socket or two that is blue so just throw a 5crit/7stam gem in two sockets because the 12agi/3%crit meta is amazing for PvE.

Kazeyonoma
08-18-2008, 02:14 AM
yeh, but I'm mostly in pvp gear so it's all yellow/red sockets, and when I go pve the only slots I have open that are blue come from my red belt of battle which i won't take out +20str from.

Cryof
08-18-2008, 02:33 AM
Ya dont get me wrong the 24ap/xx meta is imo the best meta for pvp.

ZymanHWL
08-18-2008, 07:30 AM
with the changes in hit on the pvp gear (18 more now) you can put cats swift on your boots and then use 12 crit/%snare, from what i can tell this outparses 24ap/speed.

At any rate. I am finally converting to a slam spec after being a fury warrior for longer than i want to remember. My best option i have atm(excluding waiting for drops) is my Vengeful Mace...i also have the ZA sword but do you really think i'd be better off with the sword instead of the mace? I will be picking up cats edge when/if it ever drops.

My next question is lurker bracers vs Ragewinterchill bracers. I'm sitting at 172 hit...so i can afford to drop some :D

One other thing i had a question about, from what i'm reading and seeing i would think chugging insane str pots would be alot better than chugging haste pots. Or is it even worth it?

Kazeyonoma
08-18-2008, 07:56 AM
I'd like to think the sword outdps's the mace, even if there's a slight dps discrepancy the weapon spec will make up for it since the mace's specialization is pretty much useless in pve. I think if you can drop hit somewhere go for it, but doesn't Rage bracers also give ArP?

I dunno about the haste pots, I chug str pots myself because I am poor. =P

ZymanHWL
08-18-2008, 09:00 AM
Furious Shackles - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i30861)
no arp but here are the lurker ones..
Bracers of Eradication - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/i30057)



from what i'm seeing the mace will out parse it on paper...ya mace spec is useless, i have access to cats edge now it's just about getting it to drop

Kazeyonoma
08-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Paper parses normally fail on sword spec because it can't accurately figure the dps increase it gives you, not to mention the free rage it gives you to keep your rotation going.

Furious shackles, ah, I was thinking the leather ones I think. Plug those into the paper parser too and see what comes up. At 172hit you could probably trade 30 hit for a lot of other stats which give you a higher net dps increase.

Cryof
08-19-2008, 01:28 AM
Id definatly go with the sword, where as the mace might seem like more dps, sword procs in pve are amazing, when they happen you will see a HUGE jump in dps and should overall increase over all dps.

ZymanHWL
08-19-2008, 09:52 PM
ya went with the mace tonight, i wasn't all that impressed, going to try the sword for tomorrow's night raid. I'll tell ya what though, after playing fury for 2 1/2 years to go to an arms dps slam rotation is quite different, it's alot harder to pickup then i thought it would be. I would say my dps suffered tonight. I know my rotations weren't spot on alot...but i'm sure that comes with practice and time playing the spec. tonight was my first test with this build, i hadn't done an instance with it and go thrown into BT.
As i'm sure you know trash isn't easy to keep a rotation down. What do y'all usually do on trash? Also don't mind the trash numbers, i OT'd some of the pulls.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/arog4gutftcwi)

just making sure everything looks keen and i'm not horrible screwing things up.
basic rotation was
AA>MS>AA>WW>AA>Shout>AA.....etc

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 12:06 AM
in trash when i am MS i just slam lots

Auto-attack>slam, shout>auto attack>slam MS and sometimes by that point the mob is dead lol :p

i dont hit WW around CC and thats about it. just have fun hitting stuff!:D

your dps would be TONNES better if you had windfury

Kazeyonoma
08-20-2008, 09:31 AM
I hope that's not your raid rotation..

Your rotation should focus on slam. And MS and WW second priority. Slam deals more damage than either of them.

ZymanHWL
08-20-2008, 09:39 PM
i slam every time my AA goes off, if i have the rage i MS/WW

Sanelora
08-20-2008, 10:14 PM
I hope that's not your raid rotation..

Your rotation should focus on slam. And MS and WW second priority. Slam deals more damage than either of them.

MS is a close second remember so make sure you get your slams off but if you have the rage and both MS and WW are up, MS should always get priority

in the article is the rotation you should use and as BF in mostly early hyjal gear, bad BT gear (and t6 chest and bracers) i can get anywhere between 1400-1650 on brutallus with 33478 (i know it is bad)

ZymanHWL
08-20-2008, 11:10 PM
ya i switched to the sword tonight, saw a bit of an upgrade in DPS, still getting the rotation down, i miss fury :( LOL
Only thing is i still feel that i'm lacking in the DPS department and not holding my weight as a dps'r. Mind you i am coming into raid a bit undergeared. I'm thinking a HS rotation might be better for me. I'm one of those if i'm not at the top/near the top i feel i'm doing something wrong.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 12:30 AM
The HS rotation (from what i understand) is for people with exceptional gear :p

slam is also much easier to do, if you ask me - less rage problems, more straight-forward rotations. but windfury can proc off HS's so i dont know. when i tried it, i found that i liked slam better and can put out a fair amount of damage

ZymanHWL
08-21-2008, 08:08 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Zyman)
my current gear set.
Am i just expecting too much out of myself? I have terrible luck on drops hence why i'm in the gear i am in.

Sanelora
08-21-2008, 08:49 AM
going from your gorefiend log, 1500-1600 is good. it is about what i can pull in this gear on brutallus:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Barthilas&n=Sanelora)
check that quick, i will be prot soon

here is a wws:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/wvstuipzz4nao?s=279312-304958)

ignore the obscene amount of logs for kalec. some are the hunters resetting him, but otherwise, it was a rough night. brut was classy however. 29k raid DPS every time according to all of our recounts. wws records the obscene amount of time it takes for some people to just stand there and die.

if you notice.... i kinda... uh.... pulled aggro and got my face caved in....

Daraku
08-21-2008, 02:19 PM
Wrong thread.

Cryof
08-25-2008, 01:09 AM
ya i switched to the sword tonight, saw a bit of an upgrade in DPS, still getting the rotation down, i miss fury :( LOL
Only thing is i still feel that i'm lacking in the DPS department and not holding my weight as a dps'r. Mind you i am coming into raid a bit undergeared. I'm thinking a HS rotation might be better for me. I'm one of those if i'm not at the top/near the top i feel i'm doing something wrong. Honestly at the BT level you are going to want to be slam specd. Thats what i did all threw BT and up until we got to twins for a while. HS spec is only good with the sunwell gear because almost every single peace of gear has haste, and you get to the point of where you have so much haste that you cant properly slam anymore because of global cooldowns. With your gear, just focus on timing that slam to hit after your white attack because slam will be a good portion of your dps.

Cryof
08-25-2008, 10:50 PM
With the release of Wrath of the Lich King approaching, we wanted to provide you with some important information. In preparation for the expansion, we will be issuing a new content patch in the coming weeks. Much like the patch made available shortly before The Burning Crusade's release, this content patch is designed to bridge current game content with that of the expansion and will contain some exciting changes and additions.

We have outlined some of the larger features scheduled to release with the patch below:

"New class spells and talents"
Stormwind Harbor
Barbershops in capital cities
Zeppelin towers outside of Orgrimmar and Tirisfal Glades
Two brand-new Arenas featuring challenging new layouts, terrain hazards, and moving obstacles
Guild calendar
Hunter pet skill revamp
New profession: Inscription
Blue post from blizz. Soooo GG, pretty much in 3 weeks or so they are making arms terrible for raiding. So i guess its time to go back to fury because I was punching the numbers and just 2% on BF isnt gonna be enough to make up for the arms warrior dps. :(Kinda dumb to implement this pre-xpac imo, 2 of our duel warglaive warriors having to bag lvl 70 legendaries at lvl 70 just to pick up 2h wpns. GG. Any thoughts?

agill15806
08-28-2008, 02:45 AM
what potions does a pve arms warr use? haste? insane str? I usually carry both but have never look in depth which boots my dps most

Kazeyonoma
08-28-2008, 10:09 AM
haste is normally > insane str in almost every situation.

staatzee
09-03-2008, 10:50 PM
so questions....

I'm having a horrible time switching from fury to imp slam/bf, my dps has gone down a ton and im trying to figure out why. I understand im still learing the slam rotation and think this might be limiting me in a way but also wonder if my gear is off or if im gemming wrong. As it sits right now im sitting 900-1100 on hyjal/bt/sunwell fights. My gm wants me to sit around at least 1600 and im just banging my head how. I will replace my enchant to boots with surefooted to get the cap of 142 although ill be at 145, I'm working on a new weap jsut no luck and from there i sit at 2102 ap 30.10ish crit and 1127 arp. Are my stats ok and im just fucking up my rotation? do i need to pop bf and deathwish at all possible times? any help would be great!

heres my armory link
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gnomeregan&n=Staatzee)

Galushi
09-03-2008, 10:58 PM
Arms wont get totally broken imo. They are fixing slam to stall the attack timer instead of reset it. That will take care latency issues and hopefully the 20% haste from new WF will still just be "20% more white dmg rage" and let us use pseudo arms cycles. We just wont have to watch slam timers =) Put the slam wherever you want and it delays the white attack by .5seconds no matter what. Losing 15% flurry sucks but gaining 15% dmg on all attacks from crit enrage buff makes up for it. I think it'll be okay. Whether it stacks up to fury is the other deal. Arms dps just needs to keep up with fury so that 2% BF isnt a big deal.

Kazeyonoma
09-04-2008, 01:21 AM
so questions....

I'm having a horrible time switching from fury to imp slam/bf, my dps has gone down a ton and im trying to figure out why. I understand im still learing the slam rotation and think this might be limiting me in a way but also wonder if my gear is off or if im gemming wrong. As it sits right now im sitting 900-1100 on hyjal/bt/sunwell fights. My gm wants me to sit around at least 1600 and im just banging my head how. I will replace my enchant to boots with surefooted to get the cap of 142 although ill be at 145, I'm working on a new weap jsut no luck and from there i sit at 2102 ap 30.10ish crit and 1127 arp. Are my stats ok and im just fucking up my rotation? do i need to pop bf and deathwish at all possible times? any help would be great!

heres my armory link
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gnomeregan&n=Staatzee)

How much dps were you doing as fury? which weapons did you used to have compared to what you're using now? Expect a 200-300 dps drop from going fury -> arms, but expect your physical dps'ers to go up 4% overall which is gonna be > than your single 200-300 dps drop.

Galushi
09-04-2008, 01:23 AM
Also make sure you have Windfury. You won't have the rage to sustain a full rotation without it (in most cases).

And i might be wrong but since your only making use of 7 of that hit from surefooted, 12 agi might still be better. I would'nt bother switching enchants.

staatzee
09-04-2008, 10:20 PM
im not really worried that im losing dps i get that due to my spec but is my gm just off by wanting me around the 1600 mark? notice i also dont usually use haste or ins pots as it seems to be a waste of mats on bt fights, here is our run last night notice i had 3 rogues and a resto shammy jsut dropping totems for us since our grp was off for the night are these decent numbers for my gear and still being new to slam and for the fact the grp was off?

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/3xgzgz66gaez5?s=169745-179336&a=x24620f)

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/3xgzgz66gaez5?s=269236-288784&a=x24620f)

i know the 2nd is short but still shows some stuff, and by raid being off i meant we were 3 people short and had a resto shammy in the melee grp :(

Malkieri
09-05-2008, 05:10 AM
I actually switched to arms about 3 days ago and have been loving it. Biggest tip I can give is to just get down the rotation. I practiced for about an hour (sad I know) on the undying servant of sevine in Blasted Lands. Only HS when you have full rage, otherwise just keep up the usual rotation. One other thing I do is to pop Death Wish in conjunction with an Insane Str Pot whenever it's up. I don't use Haste pots as I'm still learnin the rotation and don't want to miss. I know my hit rating is low but we have a full time Boomkin so I get her debuff on bosses. Also gettin nyn'jah boots this weekend so i'll be almost capped then.

Armory : The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Exodar&n=Tcovenant)

Some reports to show what i did : WWS Loading... (http://wowwebstats.com/y2rfapn5iseb5?a=x14ee344)

My question for all you Arms experts is this: What do i do if Heroism puts me below 2.5 sec Atk speed? Last night with flurry and my 10 haste from distracting blades i was at 2.4 secs and couldn't get off my perfect rotation. Should i just auto-attack, spam MS/WW when they're up and forget about Slam, or should I just try to get as close to the rotation as I can? Or should i just spam Slam and forget bout MS/WW? Any tips would be appreciated.

Galushi
09-05-2008, 05:15 AM
For me i just try to fit the cycle with the 2.4 sec attack. It feels a funky but it basically makes you waste a little of the haste but its better then giving up slam from your rotation. Essentially it makes your slam cast start at .1second after the white hit, instead of instantly after the white hit, so your wasting .6seconds when you slam instead of the usual .5seconds.

Stick with the rotation. It's better then the alternatives imo.

Hisstok
09-10-2008, 06:46 AM
So I want arms for the first time last night, typical build, I went from about 900dps on the first boss in BT to ~1500 on gorehowl where we finished Getting my rotation down and such.

I partially blame my swing timer as I grabbed it just before the raid and didn't get one with latency feedback.

I was doing the standard slam rotation but hit a brick wall when I would finish a slam cycle with about 30 rage, should I be using a special to burn the rage or hold onto it so I don't have to wait for my next hit to register and give me rage before queing slam?

Should I be aiming for an exact 1/1 split of white hits/slams? Its hard to tell on wws if I'm doing this right because of windfury and sword spec

Sanelora
09-10-2008, 07:14 AM
So I want arms for the first time last night, typical build, I went from about 900dps on the first boss in BT to ~1500 on gorehowl where we finished Getting my rotation down and such.

I partially blame my swing timer as I grabbed it just before the raid and didn't get one with latency feedback.

I was doing the standard slam rotation but hit a brick wall when I would finish a slam cycle with about 30 rage, should I be using a special to burn the rage or hold onto it so I don't have to wait for my next hit to register and give me rage before queing slam?

Should I be aiming for an exact 1/1 split of white hits/slams? Its hard to tell on wws if I'm doing this right because of windfury and sword spec

This is why it is so latency dependant.

slam should be 1 for 1 with normal hits

Rishkkin
09-10-2008, 08:42 AM
This is why it is so latency dependant.

slam should be 1 for 1 with normal hits

Even with sword specs proc and WF procs ?

I tend to get twice the number of hits from white than slams....

Sanelora
09-10-2008, 08:48 AM
Even with sword specs proc and WF procs ?

I tend to get twice the number of hits from white than slams....

nah, if you had no sword spec and no WF (and if that is the case, god help you) slam should equal (in a perfect test) the white hits done, MS should be 1/2 the white hits, ww should be 1/4 of the amount white hits etc

Viktory101
09-11-2008, 07:50 PM
So I'm sitting here looking up things like these cuz my new guild is running Gruul's/mags tonight without me cuz I refused to respecc fury when I dont even have good enough one handers to compete with my 2 hander. I continually out dps our rogues, hunters and even mages(outside of aoe). But they continually try to push me to fury.
I regret joining my new server now. On my old server my Hyjal/Bt content guild made ample use of arms warriors. And we were better than this guild is.
Any tips on how to convince stubborn guildies arms is a feesible pve spec before I tfer back to my old server?

jabbarahm
09-12-2008, 05:53 AM
I'm curious as to how PVE MS wars are putting out 2000 dps+ while still putting up blood frenzy?

I've done brut and put out 1600+ dps, but nothing better than that.

Gear: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Jibz)
Unbuffed Stats:
AP: 1948
ArP: 1217
Crit: 30.31% (in berserk)
Expertise: 16
Hit Rating: 138
Haste: 0 (3.5 speed sword)

Aight, so if you look at my gear, I sorta had to gem for the +10 hit to reach 142 (which I still haven't, but figure 3 pts of hit is not going to kill me).

My rotation is:
Auto Swing --> Slam, MS --> Auto --> Slam, WW --> Auto --> Slam, Instant

I often have enough rage to deal with this rotation because of the ridiculous armor pen. Often times I'm over rage and at around 70 rage I sub in a heroic for the auto swing but still have enough rage to complete a slam and maybe a ms or ww.

On brut for example (a 6 min fight).
Tank pulls
5:45: pop bloodlust brooch, insane str pot, deathwish (drums also go up so haste pot is ridiculous to my timer, i don't use haste pots at all for this reason)
3:30: pop 1st heroism, bloodlust brooch, insane str pot (drums popped again)
1:15: pop 2nd heroism (switch a resto sham in our grp), bloodlust brooch, insane str pot, deathwish, recklessness (drums popped again)
:30: Around 20% I switch to Molten Fury set. Start spamming execute until kill as sometimes brut will have to be kited around enrage

Group composition:
2 rogues
1 ms war
1 ret pally
1 enh sham (totem twists goa and wf)

Aight, so sometimes when I notice all the procs have gone off and my swing timer is ridiculous, I start spamming slams. I can spam them back to back and feel this is far better than heroic strike because heroic strike I still have to wait for the swing (which never gets under 1.8ish seconds for me). What are other warriors doing for this brief moment?

Is there something I'm not seeing? I just don't get how ms wars can put out 2k dps. My gear is pretty damn good in my opinion and I have not been able to find any dps rotation better than the traditional auto, slam, instant stuff.

Cryof
09-14-2008, 08:41 PM
Was playing around as PvE Arms on the ptr, and as of right now it is still extremely strong. On the test dummys who parry alot, and with no buffs other then BS was still pulling around 2.1k dps. Rage is insane and almost never go below 50% unless you execute with a sudden death, in whichcase you just pop Bladestorm and does a ton of dmg and brings you back up to100 rage. Was beating our warglaive warrior and our rogue in dps, this patch made arms alot funner lol.

staatzee
09-15-2008, 12:41 AM
quick question.....

so we did a lil trash in sunwell just rounding out the night and i picked up the shivering felspine. I have been raiding with the za sword and was wondering if the small ap increase and the alsmot 7% crit spec+agi on weap will outweigh the sword spec...

right now in our raids we are currently using a feral druid along with enhance shammy so im all the way up to 42.5% ish crit is this to much? and do u guys think i should stay with the polearm or stick with sword? and no neither cats edge or soul cleaver has dropped so dont go there....

oh and here is my armory..
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gnomeregan&n=Staatzee)

Pheiro
09-17-2008, 11:05 AM
I've been hearing some mumblings about how great haste is for an arms build, but have not seen anybody put out some solid answers to what an optimal haste value would be, or if it is better/worse than other stats. Has anybody else taken a look at this?

Cryof
09-17-2008, 02:42 PM
This is a compilation of things from EJ forums that i threw together real quick into 1 post. For me when it came to stats, I picked up the best ArP and Str gear I could find, while still taking haste gear and banking it until I had enough haste to where I felt I could support a non-slam spec, which for me I decided a 2.8s swing with just flurry up would do more then fine.

Ok first off the "haste soft cap" is a weapon speed around 2.5 seconds with flurry up.

"Timechart for Slam"

t=0.0 white swing lands, begin slam, begin gcd, reset swing timer
t=0.5 slam lands, reset swing timer
t=1.0
t=1.5 slam's gcd finishes, perform instant (MS/WW), begin gcd
t=2.0
t=2.5
t=3.0 instant's gcd finishes, white swing lands, begin slam, begin gcd, reset swing timer

The thing with slam is that the faster you are swining the more of your "white hit" is being eaten.

at 3.5s, a perfectly timed slam (.5 sec) only costs 1/7 of your auto attack
at 2.5s a perfectly timed slam costs 1/5 of your auto attack.
So you have to decide for yourself is when the slam is eating too much of your
auto attack to make up for the reset in the swing timer.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Deathwing&n=Cryof)

Malkieri
09-17-2008, 03:16 PM
early raiding you pretty much don't want to stack haste as you adjust to your swing timer and slam. if you are using the general slam rotation then as cryof said once you push past 2.5 attack speed any haste is effectively being wasted because of the gcd and that's only if you're perfect in your rotation. once you get to the point where haste is inevitable on your gear (about swp) then you generally should have the rage to support a HS rotation as you should always have rage to burn.

basically to answer your question i have not seen/heard of any optimal stats as to when to start switchin in haste for your gear. i think it's pretty much a how you feel and how you want to gear your war. but if i had to state a point in progression as to when to swtich it wouldn't be until you're clearin bt and have the armor pen/ap/crit gear from in there, meaning you're in SWP and it drops naturally on the gear

IvoryTiger
10-14-2008, 10:31 AM
Howdy, I have been using the build with my 2h Axe wielding Orc Warror and love it. I played around with updating it for the new 3.0 specs.

Can anyone take a look at this and tell me how to optimize it?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LVRhzfht0brRf0MZhE00xVzbh)

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2008, 11:13 AM
I'd probably use something more like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LVRbdfIt00bRfsRthE00x)

Yes you lose flurry but you're never gonna get Enrage to pop when dps'ing, so having wrecking crew is a much more steady way of having it up. And the new thing is that you're actually gonna rely on staying in battle stancing and blowing execute and overpower whenever they light up. You force overpowers to light up by keeping rend on the target. It'll be weird but you basically will keep rend up, execute whenever it procs and lights up, overpower whenever it lights up, mortal strike whenever not on CD, bladestorm whenever not on CD, and if you have extra rage at this point slams spam.

IvoryTiger
10-15-2008, 09:56 AM
I'd probably use something more like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LVRbdfIt00bRfsRthE00x)

Yes you lose flurry but you're never gonna get Enrage to pop when dps'ing, so having wrecking crew is a much more steady way of having it up. And the new thing is that you're actually gonna rely on staying in battle stancing and blowing execute and overpower whenever they light up. You force overpowers to light up by keeping rend on the target. It'll be weird but you basically will keep rend up, execute whenever it procs and lights up, overpower whenever it lights up, mortal strike whenever not on CD, bladestorm whenever not on CD, and if you have extra rage at this point slams spam.

Wow, you were right, Overpower is up almost all the time. And execute was popping at least twice before the mob was at 20%. I've got a 23.8% crit rating with my 2h Axe and it's just amazing.

Kazeyonoma
10-15-2008, 10:02 AM
just wait till you get better gear, right now in my season 4 pvp gear, I've got something like 39.96% crit in zerker so in battle stance I have 36.96% crit and over 2k unbuffed AP. If I swap out my pvp trinket, and a few gear pieces for higher AP/hit I can get my unbuffed ap close to 2.2k but my crit will drop to about 35% crit. Still sexy, and as arms spec to boot, if I was axes that'd be a pretty HUGE chunk to mess around with. haha.

Rishkkin
10-17-2008, 12:27 PM
Like Kaze said, when you'll get better gear, you'll see it's even better !

There is so much synergy at the moment between Crit and Sudden death.

Add in Deep wound's rolling ticks and you're doing great damage there.

deltonesan
10-18-2008, 12:24 AM
I have a question. Rend has apparently been nerfed along with sudden death. Lots of warriors on the public WoW forums are saying that pve arms warrior dps is doomed a couple of days into it's real chance to blossom. Is this true?

I was raid buffed up to 52.71% crit at Hyjal two nights ago in poleaxe spec and wearing mostly pvp gear and using the S2 2Haxe I was able to compete with all the aoers specced arms.

I do not want this to end, as I've been raiding and running heroics all week long just aiming for the Blade of the Harbingers as an upgrade.

Rocki
10-20-2008, 10:45 PM
While I went TG for Hyjal this week (no ferals, raid wanted rampage), I did go arms tonight for a fun stint in TK/SSC (T6 was cleared, no tanks for Sunwell). Raidbuffed I stood at 40% crit and around 3k AP, with BoH. On every damned fight (Kael, Lurker and Vashj, I tanked A'lar) I utterly annihilated everyone else. Even pulled aggro a few times on Lurker, something casters needn't worry about, and still bested them. Arms is without a doubt the best spec for DPS atm, and I'd even say axe > sword atm (had a warrior with cat's edge and he was consistently below me). Didn't matter much though, we were 1 and 2 on all fights anyway :)

Gear consists of pretty much the best T6 has to offer, minus the chest, plus the badge axe for me and CE for the other warrior. 4/8 T6 locks, mages and hunters had nothing on us :)

ebs2002
10-22-2008, 07:33 AM
WWS from Hyjal last night. Anetheron being what I point to for what Arms DPS can do right now.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/rfcxqgg43h6ym?s=117519-142046)

I was in battle stance, keeping up rend and prioritizing:
Bladestorm > Overpower > Execute (under 30 rage) > Mortal Strike > Slam

I stomped the rest of my guild on this fight, and while it's a melee-friendly fight, I've never been THIS far ahead of my guild before.

I have to agree that it's a little OP right now, because I'm not the best geared DPS in my guild. The switch to arms had me downgrade some of my gear just to maintain hit-capped.


Commentary on the other fights:
Rage - I was still learning the rotation
Kaz - Another awesome performance for me
Azgalor - Forgot to refresh rend a number of times. Noob mistake
Naj'entus - No vigilance threat-capped me, but otherwise I feel like I did well
Supremus - Disconnected for most of the fight ><
Trash - I ruled on Hyjal trash when I was fury. I lost a lot of that now, and can't wait for dual-spec when I can titan's grip through it :)

The rend nerf isn't really a nerf yet, at least not as bad as it used to be. It was just re-factored. I don't know how much damage we'll gain or lose from it, but Rend has only been 5% of my damage on a boss anyway, so I'm not mourning it.

The sudden death nerf is sort of a big deal, but I found myself NOT executing half the time because I had too much rage and it wouldn't be worth it. Over 30 rage and I should be slamming, and saving the execute for when I dump it down to below 30. That didn't happen as much as I thought it would. So, I'd have to say that the Sudden Death nerf isn't as bad as you'd think

Chosenx
10-23-2008, 11:43 PM
Same deal with me on anethearon last night as well. Didn't have a wws though because I didnt know it was updated to 3.0 yet lol.

Anyway I did about 2200 dps on him i think, and trashed everyone else by far dps-wise (same deal on rage).

Trash is a little dissapointing as arms, as u simply don't have the aoe burst. You have bladestorm which is good while it is up, but it simply isnt up enough for enough dps (sure i averaged 2000 dps on trash, but that was NOTHING compared to everyone else).

I tried everything too - going to zerker, sweeping strkes and whirlwinding.

I wasnt using slam as much as a rage dump though, which probably need to start doing.

Rishkkin
10-24-2008, 05:41 AM
I wasnt using slam as much as a rage dump though, which probably need to start doing.I found out that using slam on trash mobs (which usually have a tendency to move often and die quickly) is quite 'difficult' to use steadily (many times your attack will fail due to the mob being dead or moving out of range just as you were about to land the blow)

I guess at those times, keeping use of instant attacks is the way to go.

What I'd be curious would to see the performance of dual-wielding axes on trash dumping rage on executes / WW / SS / MS when it's up.

ebs2002
10-24-2008, 06:10 AM
Does anyone have evidence of a sudden death execute hitting a second target while SS is up? If so, you should prioritize execute>ms>bladestorm>ww while sweeping strikes is running.

Usually about 5secs into a trash pull that I have BS up, I go to zerker stance, pop BS, then with the 100 rage I have, I pop SS then Execute. HUUUGE burst. Not sustainable, but keeps me in the top-5 usually.

I do plan on building an AE-Trash as my second spec though, using TG. BS won't make up for Imp WW with a pair of 150badge-axes

Krenian
10-24-2008, 06:27 AM
In all the accounts I've used Sweeping Strikes while AoEing down packs, SD/Execute do not register. I wouldn't see why as it pretty much uses the same type of attack, being execute, and Execute's been removed from Sweeping Strikes for a lil while now.

ebs2002
10-24-2008, 06:37 AM
I thought that Execute worked for Sweeping Strikes if both mobs were below 20%.

I hadn't done any substantial testing, but it was something another warrior told me and I had no reason to doubt him. After all, execute USED to work with sweeping strikes. It's just a matter of how blizz coded it:

original:
If (sweeping_strikes) then Ability.hit(closest_mob)

a) if (sweeping_strikes and not(Ability.name="execute")) then Ability.hit(closest_mob)

or

b) if (sweeping_strikes and Ability.name="execute") { if (closest_mob.healthPercent < 20) then Ability.hit(closest_mob) } else { Ability.hit(closest_mob) }

(please no commenting on my pseudo-code; yes i know this isn't valid c++/C# syntax, I'm trying to keep it less confusing)

Krenian
10-24-2008, 06:42 AM
I don't even understand half of the code you used so I'm not even going to comment on it, let alone be able to understand half of it.

It used to work how it was but both mobs I think had to be below 20% to be able to work properly. I really ain't sure anymore to be honest. It depends on how they coded their Sudden Death work. When Iw as doing it, I didn't see two mobs's health go down chunk wise and now that I'm specced TG (I was only spec'ed Arms till I got my BoH, now I'm staying Fury for probably most of the time), I don't have much available information. So by all means, test away!

Rishkkin
10-24-2008, 08:25 AM
I'll try to get an Excute used while SS and SD are up and see what happens during lunch time today.