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Lunestone
01-23-2008, 07:33 PM
I have a dps warrior in my guild that is MS spec... I basically told him if he wanted to raid he'd have to go Fury (if he had appropriate dps I wouldn't have said a word but I was told that it's low). I guess I kind of figured it was common knowledge that if you want the highest dps, you go fury but I had to explain why... the reasons I know of are if you 2H arms spec in raids, that's a lot of burst damage and can pull aggro. Also, MS doesn't take full advantage of dual-wielding and it has a six second cooldown. Although a guildie made a point... bloodthirst is on a 6 second cooldown but I reminded him that the bottom of the tree isn't BT, it's rampage. I feel like this is about the extent of my knowledge... i'm not really talented with specs, i've been a tank so long now that I really need to try fury again.

Anyway, some suggestions on specs would be great... even a fury spec that will make this guy happy to be down arms a bit... he showed me a spec but it just seemed like he spent too many points on avoiding getting hit or regenerating health... what the hell i'll show the spec he made lol...

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3500501130200020000000005050133505010 05002400000000000000000000000)

Lunestone
01-23-2008, 07:35 PM
Oh sorry, that was supposed to be one point in precision not sweeping strikes...

Baceramus
01-23-2008, 07:40 PM
=/

If he dual wields you want to go with the 17/44 cookie-cutter build in the Fury guide on here. Otherwise for 2h go with an imp-slam build. From my own experience Fury is welcome in a raid far more than MS these days, reduced threat is magical.

Lunestone
01-23-2008, 07:42 PM
Oh and i've read Meeks guide but I don't think I can get this guy that far into Fury...

Baceramus
01-23-2008, 07:45 PM
The sword proc is wasted if he ever switches to another weapon, if he is dual wielding I hope he has two slow weapons, and the points into Iron Will are pvp, get rid of them. Either ge goes for a pve spec for doing pve things or he simply stays MS and you guys deal with lower quality melee. If the information provided in Meeks' guide isn't enough to convince him he's not worth convincing.

Lunestone
01-23-2008, 07:47 PM
=/

If he dual wields you want to go with the 17/44 cookie-cutter build in the Fury guide on here. Otherwise for 2h go with an imp-slam build. From my own experience Fury is welcome in a raid far more than MS these days, reduced threat is magical.


I've read a tad on that... you have to have a windfury totem to make it viable though right?

Lunestone
01-23-2008, 07:48 PM
The sword proc is wasted if he ever switches to another weapon, if he is dual wielding I hope he has two slow weapons, and the points into Iron Will are pvp, get rid of them. Either ge goes for a pve spec for doing pve things or he simply stays MS and you guys deal with lower quality melee. If the information provided in Meeks' guide isn't enough to convince him he's not worth convincing.

Yeah... I just wanna make sure there isn't a way to make it work. I'm all for helping out anyone I can :)

Baceramus
01-23-2008, 07:52 PM
Well, no, having a WF totem available makes you that much more dangerous. However the spec itself with good gearing can make you quite the beast to behold. My old roommate went Fury not too long ago after being MS for over a year and a half now and he went from being 6th to 7th in damage in a 25-man to being 2nd and 3rd at times. Without windfury. Know your rotations, gear properly, don't depend on another class to carry you through the raid.

Getting back on point. The person you are trying to help should perhaps come on here and read a bit, might find the information useful or might consider it rubbish. Either way they'll at least know why people spec and gear for Fury like they do and why it has higher damage potential (and reduced threat) compared to Arms/MS.

Taelas
01-23-2008, 10:41 PM
That spec... is pointless. He doesn't have an attack! He doesn't even use two points for Improved Slam >_<

2H PvE DPS is possible. 33/28 when you're low-geared and 20/41 as soon as you've got enough AP that Bloodthirst outscales Mortal Strike. It's basically the same as 17/44 cookie-cutter, but with Two-Handed Weapon Specialization instead of Impale, and Improved Slam instead of Dual Wield Specialization.

Esillymidget
01-24-2008, 12:08 AM
Reminds me of a former guild of mine who's Molten Core main tank decided that 3/3 Blood Craze was better than deflection...cuz you know we tanks get crit alot, and a 300 point is about the coolest thing ever. Thank god you can't tank effectively with one button anymore.

Lunestone
01-24-2008, 03:21 AM
That spec... is pointless. He doesn't have an attack! He doesn't even use two points for Improved Slam >_<

2H PvE DPS is possible. 33/28 when you're low-geared and 20/41 as soon as you've got enough AP that Bloodthirst outscales Mortal Strike. It's basically the same as 17/44 cookie-cutter, but with Two-Handed Weapon Specialization instead of Impale, and Improved Slam instead of Dual Wield Specialization.


So what's a good rotation for 33/28?

Meeks
01-24-2008, 06:54 AM
You can make a MS build work, and work extremely well. In fact the past few months i have raided as 33/28 arms/fury. To make it work there are several things that need to happen.

You NEED improved slam. You NEED 3/5 flurry. You NEED blood frenzy AND NOT second wind. And you should be using a sword.

If those conditions are met arms it is an incredible raiding spec. Blood frenzy will mean the arms warrior is doing more raid damage then a fury warrior. Their personal dps will also be very competitive if done right.

Saeval
01-24-2008, 07:34 AM
I'll second what Meeks said. As he said, you need Improved Slam and Blood Frenzy.

Improved Slam is the bread and butter of MS builds. It takes some getting used to at first, but Slam -> MS -> Slam - WW is a pretty nice rotation, and does very competitive damage.

Blood Frenzy should have been in the fury tree (in my honest opinion), but its presence in the arms tree is a key factor when it comes to why you spec Arms/Fury over a traditional Fury/Arms build.

Lunestone
01-24-2008, 10:21 AM
You can make a MS build work, and work extremely well. In fact the past few months i have raided as 33/28 arms/fury. To make it work there are several things that need to happen.

You NEED improved slam. You NEED 3/5 flurry. You NEED blood frenzy AND NOT second wind. And you should be using a sword.

If those conditions are met arms it is an incredible raiding spec. Blood frenzy will mean the arms warrior is doing more raid damage then a fury warrior. Their personal dps will also be very competitive if done right.

Thanks! I'll let him know that we can have him try it out... so, question, what about burst damage how this affect his threat? Granted at this point he's not doing much of any dps so probably not an issue until he gets better... and what should his stats to be like? He has like 33% crit right now...

Kazeyonoma
01-24-2008, 10:24 AM
like meeks said, follow what he tells you

tell your guildie to download Quartz Timer to get his attack speed timer going.

what he wants to do is if he has bad latency, cast slam near the last .5 seconds of his swing timer, that way he'll white hit followed by a slam (resets swing timer afterwards) and only lose <.5 of a second in his swing, followed by a MS, or a Whirlwind depending on rotation, if he has great latency, just cast slam as soon as his swing timer ends (he'll start his swing motion)

It should look something like this:

White Swing -> Mortal Strike -> cast slam -> White Swing -> Slam -> Whirlwind -> cast slam -> White Swing -> Slam -> Mortal Strike -> cast slam .... repeating.

Meeks
01-24-2008, 10:35 AM
Attack rotation is pretty simple. You should be hitting slam as your auto attack starts every time. If you are feeling risky and see your lag on quartz you can hit slam before your auto swing finishes. For example if you are seeing 300ms lag then hit slam when there is 300ms left in your auto attack. This is of course risky as if you jump the gun a little you will loose your auto attack. However as you get the feel of things this method is needed to maximize dps if you do not have perfect lag.

Here is my rotation assuming rage is not an issue:

Auto attack --> Slam --> MS
Auto attack --> Slam --> WW
Auto attack --> Slam --> MS
Auto attack --> Slam --> Demo Shout

The most important thing is that slam is more important then MS and WW. So ALWAYS slam after the autoattack and then ms or WW if there is extra rage.

Also 33/28 blood frenzy/flurry is the only raid spec to consider.

Kazeyonoma
01-24-2008, 11:00 AM
The most important thing is that slam is more important then MS and WW. So ALWAYS slam after the autoattack and then ms or WW if there is extra rage.

Also 33/28 blood frenzy/flurry is the only raid spec to consider.


EXACTLY. Slam, costs 20 rage, has no cooldown, and hits for only 70 or so less bonus damage than mortal strike. Always prioritize it over the other two, they cost more rage, and don't necessarily do much more damage. When dps'ing the debuff MS gives is rarely needed or works so don't worry about it.

And yes 33/28 bloodfrenzy/flurry is truly the only good ms spec out there, and No to the original thing from the OP: you do not necessarily NEED windfury totem to be good, it'll give a good 100-200 dps increase, and you won't be #1 dps, but blood frenzy ALONE makes up for being in the # 3-4 spot.

Lunestone
01-24-2008, 11:04 AM
Ty, ty, ty :) I already have your guide posted in the warrior forums on our site... I'll be saving all this to the post I just made :D

Meeks
01-24-2008, 11:09 AM
EXACTLY. Slam, costs 20 rage, has no cooldown, and hits for only 70 or so less bonus damage than mortal strike. Always prioritize it over the other two, they cost more rage, and don't necessarily do much more damage. When dps'ing the debuff MS gives is rarely needed or works so don't worry about it.

And yes 33/28 bloodfrenzy/flurry is truly the only good ms spec out there, and No to the original thing from the OP: you do not necessarily NEED windfury totem to be good, it'll give a good 100-200 dps increase, and you won't be #1 dps, but blood frenzy ALONE makes up for being in the # 3-4 spot.


Slam has less bonus damage but it is also not normalized so with most weapons slam hits harder then MS.

Kazeyonoma
01-24-2008, 12:09 PM
true, hence why i love slam in pvp, with my deep thunder, ;D

gazhkull
01-24-2008, 08:14 PM
A lot less work with dual wield fury compared to 2H arms. If he hasn't played a DPS melee much in raids, I would most heartily recommend the 17/44/0 cookie cutter build. Arms Imp. Slam builds might get you higher on the DPS charts if your gear is good enough but you need to have masochistic tendencies to play it.

Lunestone
01-25-2008, 10:49 AM
Yeah, my GM wasn't too thrilled when I said we could *possibly* have him try the imp slam spec... he was thinking you gotta be pretty damn good to get away with it.

Methadone
01-27-2008, 01:48 AM
We always bring 2 warriors with us, one is full on fury (using s3 weapons), the other is MS/Frenzy/Demo whore with Quartz and imp slam.

He uses the Archi sword and Solarian trinket in the melee group, his personal DPS isn't as good as the fury warrior, but he brings 4&#37; melee damage and is a safe Curse of Recklessness enabler through 5/5 Demo shout.

From a little theorycraft I did, I found the following:

CoR added: 37.9 tps
Frenzy added: 36.6 tps
Exec added: 39.9 tps
All together: 121.9 tps

(Normal boss mob with 7700 ac before FF/Sunders, 6% hit, 20 expertise, 18% crit, 1110 ap, 570 block, using The Brutalizer /w Executioner, 70ms latency and will full heroic spam, no WF or other external tps modifiers)

Definitely worth bringing one along, especially if you have a hunter/melee heavy raid.

Ukyo
01-27-2008, 07:47 AM
I'm usually MS/Flurry on raids, but i don't use a sword, since i haven't gotten to the point where Cataclysm's Edge drops. I'm using a Stormherald with executioner and mostly PvP gear. My DPS isn't really what you'd call Superb... but still is pretty decent. Last time i raided i was spec'ed like this

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LG0jzNbqM0dZVVzm0gRc)

You can change UW for Imp. Demo, but i still like to do PvP after the raid ends, and there's no need for Imp. Demo on my guild just yet. And my rotation was something like this (when rage's not an issue):

Autoswing -> Slam -> MS -> Autoswing -> Slam -> WW -> HS -> Slam, then back to the start. I don't really have problems with the aggro when the MT of my guild is tanking, but when he's not on the raid, i have to improvise :P. Still is pretty decent with some WF and you boost your Melee group (367 ap for rogues and 4% more damage, plus WF = happy rogues xD). Though i have the gear to be Fury, i saw that i could bring much more to the raid 33/28 spec'ed and you don't need to respec every week just to do some PvP (which i live and die for)

Taelas
01-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Also 33/28 blood frenzy/flurry is the only raid spec to consider.

20/41 when you are in the 3000 AP raid-buffed range. It'll deal more damage, both personal DPS and raid DPS. Bloodthirst outscales Mortal Strike at that point, and you'll get all the goodies from Fury -- mainly Improved Berserker Stance, which is huge. It also means that your choice of weapon is not limited by your spec.

You can also easily go with 31/30 in Karazhan, as Blood Frenzy isn't an issue and you get full Flurry instead... and any other time you're in a raid where the increase in physical damage doesn't outscale the DPS increase from Flurry.

Ekarderif
01-27-2008, 06:51 PM
With 17/44, you maximize self DPS. With 33/28, you maximize raid DPS. With 20/41... you are too lazy to find a good dual wield set?