PDA

View Full Version : Leotheras the Progression-stopper!



Dreadski
01-19-2008, 10:21 PM
Leo has given our guild quite a bit of trouble. I've seen a lot of things happening, such as locks keeping dots up in the WW phase, which last right thru. Another lock drained life the entire time and didn't stop until he got ownt...

Good times. We've tried a few things, the searing totem seems to be the best plan from what I've seen. After the first try on our 4th night on him it was brought up that we should have the paladin tank simply because of the shield toss ability....which he promptly proved there was no time to use.

Out of WW and out of Demon form is the toughest, I usually start with a shield slam and heroic strike right out of the gate between phases, sometimes it isn't enought, seems we need to tighten up the raid a bit there.

All that said I think the worst thing is inner demon. Every fight where we start to look good I end up with a demon. I have 630ish BV in my current effective health set, tried switching to 2 swords, worked horribly. My best try was also the worst, as I shield slammed and heroic'ed away at the demon, I brought him down to 1 hit point....right before Leo went elf form and got me MCed at 30%, which to date is the furthest we've got him to.

Anyone have any possible tricks that might assist us, besides the obvious tightening of our squad?

Elson
01-20-2008, 12:21 AM
I was wondering about your paladin tank and how he was timing his avengers shield/judgment?

I have been the main tank on guild first kills in two separate guilds now on this guy and have never had an issue with shield timing or not being able to be in judgment range if for some reason my shield misses/bad timing.

Starting the fight off with avengers shield is a bad idea. Concecrate should be placed in leos's path before he breaks loose and judgment of righteoussness should be used to secure initial aggro. Avengers shield should be saved for when whirlwinds end. He/She should watch their boss timers very closely and start the avengers shield cast 1 second to half a second BEFORE whirlwind ends. The shield should hit just as leo's aggro resets and I f the dps is being intelligent that should be more then enough to stick leo to your paladin tank.

If your paladin tank has low hit rating then it is very advisable for them to make every effort to be in range of judgment as well when whirlwind ends. Three points in pursuit of justice helps with this greatly, short of that boars speed on their boots also helps.


If you don't have the paladin on him I'm not sure your effective health set is the best for this guy. If you have a gear set more oriented towards threat I would very much recommend using that gear set instead. Fully raid buffed I am at about 22.5k health in my EH set, on this fight I go down to about 18.5k. The loss of health/armor is very worth the added threat imo.

Worldie
01-20-2008, 12:24 AM
If the paladin tank has BigWigs or any similar addon, he should start casting Avenger Shield already when the whirlwind has 1.0 seconds left. In that way it will hit the boss right after WW ends, ensuring aggro. Being you alliance, he should also stack SoV on boss during Demon Phase, a JoV right after phase switch is HUGE aggro.

Whoever is tanking elf phase btw doesn't need many HP tbh. I tanked him with less than 17k and had no problems.

Methadone
01-20-2008, 01:09 AM
Its hard for a warrior to grab aggro after the reset so we have the warrior (mix of tank/dps gear) and druid tank it. Usually the bear would grab him before me with a big mangle hit. Intervene is great for positioning before the reset and totems will usually bring him to the center.

To kill your demon as a prot warrior isn't so hard.

When he switches to demon, switch to battle stance, cast Battle Shout and get a full rage bar, if you aren't the target, switch back to def/commanding and tank as usual. If you are chosen as a target, just use devestate making absolutely sure you retain 25 rage. When he casts a shadowbolt (1.5s cast I think), reflect it. Devestates and 1 reflect will kill your demon with ~10 sec left.

If you're having problems, stack the raid a bit. You need 2 tanks, Warlock and 1 leo tank (2 if you worried you wont pick him up). Bring more dps in to replace the tanks you used on trash. Its horrible to have to sit out for this, but this isn't the only fight where you're "gimping" your raid having more than 1-2 tanks (Vashj, Archimonde, Teron)

Worldie
01-20-2008, 07:05 AM
Just as a note, you don't need a warlock tank, you can have a paladin-druid-warrior there with same results (if not better due to proper threat generation)

Satrina
01-20-2008, 07:25 AM
I've always just worn a passive uncrush (vs. dual wielder) set and it's been plenty fine. We typically beat the enrage timer by 1-3 minutes. We're also off the norm in that we use a warrior in FR gear for demon phase 90% of the time.

When you get demon, keep your shield on. White damage only until you know whether you will get a demon or not. Use spell reflect. If necessary, eat some fire for rage.

Nicki
01-20-2008, 07:27 AM
If you have a prot paladin he can solo tank leo and you can put on dps gear \o/ and be able to kill your add (hopefully).

1.- Avengers shield is based on melee hit and thus it only takes 96hit rating and precision to cap, I did it with none capped hit but be sure to have 2 hunters in the raid. I did not use searing totems. As said you need to time it with bigwigs or DBM to when leo's whirlwind has 1 second left. They should also be following him ready to judge him as well as stacking high threat gear (leo hits like a girl belf).
2. Allow no dots in human form and only in demon form
3. Melee dps can go in on human form to do some dps


If your paladin is having problems throwing a shield at a moving target, you might want to look for a new one xD its 'the' paladin tank fight and we excel at it alot. If they can get 96 hit rating (20 from food, so 76 it eliminates the chance to miss the pick up though searing totems and missdirects can make up for this as well as using seal of vengeance because it applies a DoT so even if they miss and are out of range of judgement they can still get lucky with a dot tick.

As I said its really a fight paladins can take control over completely but they need to relax the whole way through and not panic and only use avengers shield when whirlwind breaks.

As a warrior you have issues with leo running off across the room etc. its doable and has been done I advise wearing some dps items and less health just maintain uncrittability..

Satrina
01-20-2008, 07:33 AM
As a warrior tanking him, you need to let him lead you a bit while whirlwinding so you can aim cross his path just as the whirlwind ends and hit him in the face with your shield. It's not very hard once you've practiced it a couple of times.

Paladin shield is just lazy mode ^_^

Ceravantes
01-20-2008, 08:34 AM
We had almost 0 issues with Leo, 3 wipes after 15% before he died, your problem seems to be people just not paying attention to what they are doing, if a lock is throwing dots out during human phase replace them, if your paladin cant pick him up find a new one because he probably shouldn't be trusted to tank for you anymore.

As for inner demons just like it was said above, you will actually have time for a second reflect but it should be executable/dead by that time.

nfw
01-20-2008, 08:48 AM
Have your shamans lay down searing totems, and generally just ease down on the DPS when a transition is incoming.

maddfez
01-21-2008, 07:55 AM
For demon killing....shield slam and devastate spam, don't use rage on heroic strikes. Instead, be ready to spell reflect his shadow bolts....each one does ~3k damage.

Hop into battle stance during the last WW of the Belf phase, try to get rended to get a full rage bar, then just auto attack / keep sunder up on the demon. When you get your demon, tab target him quickly, pop your autoblocker if you have it, and go to town on him. Be sure to spell reflect the shadow bolts and it's honestly not too bad.

Lastly, be sure to get back in D stance before Leo comes back out. Try to get some rage as well, but that can be hard if you had to kill your demon.


Really though, it sounds like the problem you're having is dps not respecting the aggro wipes. Have folks stop extra early, esp on stuff like DoTs, and you'll be fine. Stress that most of the dps is done during the demon form and the Belf phase is all about survival.

Lollo
01-21-2008, 08:58 AM
Have you got a Feral-Druid? This works best for us. Tanks Leo nicely and can decently DPS the inner Demon.

Being a prot Warri myself, I switch to DPS gear for that fight, - and you can easily off tank one of those three guys right at the start. You don't need high end stuff. The Decapitator and an Season 2 offhand works fine for me. Another way to kill the inner demons is to spell reflect their mindblast two times. I found that to be unsafe :o

Overall we had a similar experience at Leo, constantly wiping three or four weeks. Keep it up though, it's probably the first real achievement in SSC :)

Niss
01-23-2008, 08:35 AM
I tank Leo in a mix of dps and tank gear. Get uncrittable through resilience (arena gear is great here) and defense. For the inner demon, as soon as leo switches to demon form i change to battle stance, hit bloodrage, and start meleeing to fill rage bar. If i get inner demon, i spam ONLY devastate until i can reflect a shadow bolt. After i reflect one bolt I use shield slam/devastate/execute whatever is needed to finish it off. To put it simply, as a protection warrior if you miss the spell reflect you will fail.

Thist
01-23-2008, 10:10 AM
You could pop recklessness for your demon I guess... once anyway ;-)

Our druids tank him and I wear dps gear so I never have a problem. We use a warlock tank for the demon phase (he has special gear and respecs for it, makes it super easy), we dps him to 18% (just before split) then stop and wait for the stacks to fall off the warlock, then carry on.

We got Leo down our 3rd try ever, mainly thanks to our great warlock, but got stuck for ages on Tidewalker.

bludwork
01-23-2008, 10:49 AM
Look at it this way. The only time anyone other than the tank is in danger of dying is when leo whirlwinds.. using this knowledge, before whirlwind everyone, not just melee, everyone runs to the wall out of range of him.

The dps you lose is insignificant compared to the dps you lose when a raid dpser dies. Having 25/25 people alive at 15% increases your chances of getting a kill significantly more than a couple of more dots or damage done during the human whirlwind phase.

Dreadski
01-23-2008, 04:30 PM
Got him to 6% last attempt. I did the spell reflect thing and just tanked with my Spiteblade. We're going again tonight to kick his teeth in, thank you all for the excellent responses!

Andromedea
01-23-2008, 06:11 PM
Hmm. Having a s-priest as my main, I have to say that I don't think its a huge deal that dots tick over onto human phase.

I've never really timed my dots... just simply neglected to refresh them too close to the transition. And honestly, one or two ticks do usually go off but somehow the searing totem always pulls Leo first, and if the tank is positioned near him and shield slam doesn't miss (hit rating pls), I've never had an issue with pulling on transition.

Honestly, people pull aggro so far on badly timed direct damage nukes, trying to squeeze in one last Nightfall shadowbolt or a fireball right as he transitions. DoTs shouldn't be a huge problem unless the tank is in the wrong position to pick him up at transition, in my biased opinion. :D And on transitions to human/after WW, everyone should be collapsing back towards the tank, not far out in some corner so he runs so far away if a DoT pulls aggro that the tank cannot intervene/intercept. And most warlocks worth their salt can survive one hit from Leo... and there's always BoP/fade/soul shatter/invis.

I hated it when people claim you shouldn't be dotting on Leo at all (not the people here obviously). Good luck killing him before he enrages. We regularly smash him way before enrage. DoTs are a good 60-70% of a dot classes' DPS on movement fights like these.

If there's an issue with this, which I really think a fast pick up will solve, have 2 hunters in your raid doing an MD rotation.

Oh and stack block value and hit for Leo human tanking. You need that aggro gen to pick him up fast, and the shield block value lets you SS/Dev spam your demon in time. And yes, Spell Reflect owns.

Hardfist
05-05-2008, 09:57 AM
I equip about a 50/50 mix of tank and dps gear for this fight. The boss doesn't really hit that hard.

When the boss goes into demon form, assume battle stance. Keep hitting the boss for rage and conserve it. You have about 25 seconds to fill your rage bar. You can use some specials but don't be overly aggressive. Keep rage high because you will need it.

When your demon comes, you want a full rage bar. Target it quickly. It's easy to lose precious seconds early. Watch for the casting bar on your demon throughout and Spell Reflect when required. Devastate it fully in the meantime. When your rage gets low hit Bloodrage. Continue white damage attacks and Shield Slams. As your inner demon approaches 25% or so, build up your rage for execute when it becomes available.

Crommi
05-05-2008, 05:34 PM
I suppose it's really down to your equipment, but I can tank him just fine in full prot gear and equip my dualwield combo (Dragonstrike and Fury) for demon phase. Then just fill up the red bar and be ready to go all out on Devastate+HS spam (WW too) if I get inner demon, this usually leaves pretty nice safe margin for me to get shield again and start collecting some rage back in defensive stance for phase switch.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
05-06-2008, 02:19 AM
For your inner demon that's what I do:

-First demon: I use Recklessness, I doom him
-Second demon: use battle shout and berserker rage just before the demon pops. Hit TAB and start to DPS him with devastate, and Shield Slam. If you have enough rage (you MUST be full rage when it pops) spam some Heroic Strikes. Don't forget to use your Gnomeregan Autoblocker since it helps a lot.

As a MT for this fight, I wear my aggro gear (hit/expertise/SBV) and I use elixir of agility and an adamantite sharpening stone for the crit/damage. I was MC only once, in our first attempt, and then I always killed my demon so keep trying :)

Nayre
05-06-2008, 09:30 AM
I've tried both the DWing way, and just tanking him in my regular tanking set, and stayed in defencive stance the entire fight, and I've always found the latter to be easier. During the demon phase, aside from one devestate or SS at the start to just make sure no healers get aggro until the 'lock does, I save rage until demons are out. If I get one, I just spam devestate and SS on it, and when I see it casting I hit spell reflect. Doing it that way, I actually had an easier time killing my demon by far than with DWing.

Kamani
05-08-2008, 12:10 AM
What worked for my guild is having the entire raid down the ramp at the walls. With 5 seconds left until whirlwind I'd run to far wall(one near his spawn) so that he never got to the raid. Most of the time he'd bounce a round in a small area.

Keep rend up, if you have a Spyglass use it at the end of whirlwind. I wear max BV gear. Right as he pops out of WW I SS and HS and I normally get aggro easily.

I also use 2 other tanks trying to get him also. With 3 tanks trying you normally will get him.

Clifford
05-08-2008, 04:06 AM
I tanked him in normal gear +Autoblocker. We also had 3 tanks positioned to pick him up and using a searing totem makes it so much easier.

Mediumwell
06-05-2008, 08:00 AM
Leo is such a PITA until everyone knows the fight. Searing totems make the transitions much easier and having intervene at the ready is a good idea for the idiots who like to sneak in fireballs. Have the rage ready for a shield slam as soon as he is finished with the ww and you shouldnt have any problems...that is all completely dependant on your dps not being stupid though. I noticed a lot of people talking about leo having DoTs on him during the transitions being a problem. When I was at the Leo stage of progression it was a necessity to keep him dotted up at all times. We had all classes that had a DoT put it on him..i even used lol rend. Our strat was to refresh the DoTs before ww and then get the hell out, when ww is over tanks run in..shield to face..continute dps. That helps to beat the enrage timer by leaps and bounds. As far as beating your inner demon, when he switches to demon form, change to battle stance and fill your rage bar, hit him with shield slam, and devestate...BUT... it is imperative that you have enough rage to use Spell Reflect on his shadow bolts..when your demon is dead, back to defensive and get ready for the transition. For some reason people liked to freak after 15% when he splits forms and they just start hammering to get him dead. Just remind everyone that it is the exact same fight, just without the pesky inner demons. The biggest hurdle of Leo is getting through to your dps classes that it is not a big damage fight. Slow steady dps wins every time on Leo.

Vapes
06-05-2008, 12:21 PM
We recently started in on Leo and it took us a little while to learn the fight. Our main issue was that at 15% our dps got into that weird mentality where they wanted to sacrifice themselves to increase their dps. It took a while to get them all to remember that they do very little DPS while dead. We probably wiped 10-15 times between 1% and 5%.

--
Prot Warrior Vs. Inner Demon --
--
As for the inner demons, I've heard mention of two methods, the most common seems to be spell reflecting. Personally I'm a little more aggressive with it. At the start of the demon phase, I switch to dual-wielding, and go berserker stance. By the time the demons come out, I have a full rage bar. If one is not mine, I use all my rage up then switch back to D-stance and generate more, tossing my shield back on at the end of the phase.

If I do get a demon, I instantly Whirlwind, then find him and start hammering him down. Then finish it with an execute, switch back to D-stance and hit Bloodrage, I keep dual-wielding until the last moment (for rage) and pop my shield back on.

--
Snapping Aggro Back after WW --
--

We generally run through SSC with a couple prot warriors, a prot pally and some feral druids (who like to DPS more than tank). Maybe not optimal, but that's what we have. So for Leo we end up w/ 1 warrior and 1 pally in prot gear. We have searing totems down which work 80% of the time (and I can just shield slam leo on his way to them).

The 20% of the time it doesn't work is when he's out of range of them, targetting some people in the same area multiple times. For these cases we have the prot pally also trying to get him every time, again works probably 80-90% of the time. The over-lapping of these two methods end up saving the lives of 1-3 DPS, and ended up getting us over that 15% at the end. I just eat some of the whirling for extra rage to shield slam. If I wore my decapitator during this fight instead of my Mallet, I could probably overcome the 20% chance that totems miss by throwing it, but then would be subject to bad luck.

--
15% transition note --
--

Currently, if you get him to 15% while he's in the Demon phase he's attackable for his little "Oh noez you got me to 15%" emo moment. If you get him to 15% in human form you don't get this advantage, so if you're melee heavy (they have a hellish last 15%) you'll probably want to be sure to do this so you can take advantage of your melee. I wouldn't waste an entire human phase (45 seconds) worth of dps to wait for this but if it's close to demon time, you can gain some damage.

Also after 15% you've got that demon form hanging around, but don't get scared of it. Pull Leo back to the middle of the room after every WW. Having him start to whirl on the walls can spell death for a lot of people, and melee don't have as many options of where to run.

A good tankadin is a great asset in this fight. Remember, as a Main-tank your guilds progression and morale should be first priority, and your ego and 'I can tank anything' mentality second.

Dreadski
06-15-2008, 11:27 AM
Wow! I had no idea this thread is alive still! Okay well as an update: we killed Leo like the day after I posted this....at this point we're 6/6, 3/4, 3/5 and 0/9 and going strong, having killed Vashj last Thursday. I found this fight to be easy as hell as a prot warrior (I'm talking inner demon killing here). Like some of the earlier posts suggested, having a full rage bar and bloodrage off cooldown upon entering the demon phase is a MUST. I use my regular tank set (effective health and effective hit) with a Spiteblade in the main hand, and I spam devastate and shield slam until I need to reflect, I do so then continue, hit bloodrage for a second reflect if need be, but it's usually dead by then.

rustyboy
06-15-2008, 08:10 PM
We found the most consistent way to do this was to have a pally tank leo, we also put down searing totems where we want to tank him they work really well. Your raid will need to learn what they can do without pulling aggro and how to stop there DPS immediately until the tank gets aggro again.

Sirq
06-16-2008, 02:47 AM
I'll just add this 1 thing about inner demon, .. Tiny Voodoo Mask - Absolutly insane!

as for the boss, easy shit, just have a bad ass mafaka shouting on vent wtf to do with running in and out and when to dps and stop dps, cus dps'rs are just a bunch of clueless braindead, atleast from my experience, but I guess theres always 1 or 2 that know how to play.

Morgo
06-16-2008, 05:26 AM
I'll just add this 1 thing about inner demon, .. Tiny Voodoo Mask - Absolutely insane!


This, sir, is the best idea I have heard in quite some time on how to make Leo kills more entertaining :D I definitely have to remember bringing this goodie next time, and wait for my raid leader to yell at me for not dpsing my inner daemon :D But I guess spellreflect ist still needed to finish it off, or has anybody actually any experience with the trinket?

Sirq
06-16-2008, 06:32 AM
This, sir, is the best idea I have heard in quite some time on how to make Leo kills more entertaining :D I definitely have to remember bringing this goodie next time, and wait for my raid leader to yell at me for not dpsing my inner daemon :D But I guess spellreflect ist still needed to finish it off, or has anybody actually any experience with the trinket?
Do make sure you keep attacking the innerdemon as they tend to switch targets with you, I think.. :o

but you also still need some ShieldSlam and SpellReflect to kiel em :P
since they're vulnerable to nature its pewpewomgwtf 500critz3x

ed; I've also gotten a
/use Commander's Badge
/use Tiny Voodoo Mask
/equip Shard of Contempt
/equipslot 14 Commendation of Kael'thas
(correct me if im wrong on names, at work atm <_>)

which is usefull preboss pulls or trash w/e -

Do know these trinkets are extreme fun in STV with a certain amount of people that have this Tiny Voodoo Mask, it takes ganking lowbies to a whole new lvl of lameness :D

Daimon
06-24-2008, 08:18 AM
Too bad about pally tanks is that my guild doesn't have them; we did Leo for the 1st time the other night with me MT the human form and a druid FR capped on the demon, worked rly well until i got inner demon, lol gg 10min possesed, next attempt i did what some1 posted before, switch to berserk w dual wield in demon form, build rage then pwn my demon, to switch back to def in human form. worked pretty well, but dps even is high didn't get him before 10min enrage, we didn't do much dmg in the human phase.
He is very ez to tank, hits low even in WW state, what we do is only the druid tank is close to me when he WW and the raid back off, so mainly he hit us w/o much problem.
got him to 13% in our 2nd attempt, hes going down tonite.

Daimon
07-01-2008, 12:59 PM
Update:
We manage to do it, but i find too stressing my demon kill w the switching stances, weap and , going to try Battle stance and spell reflect, i'll try to stack ap but idk how much, any idea what should be the AP for a warrior tank to do this?

Sirq
07-02-2008, 01:14 AM
imho, you don't need ap, before I had my Tiny Voodoo Mask I just stacked a bit of block value, shieldslam that shiet, yet keep enough rage for spellreflect.
before he casts his inner deamons, go battle stance ofc and just save up rage for when he casts it. quite simplistic




ed; typo

Homunkulus
07-16-2008, 04:37 AM
I really don't get why people have problems with this fight at all. You don't need to wear heavy avoidance or even EH for Leo. In fact threat gear with capped hit makes it an easier fight from a tanking perspective. Wear threat gear, stick in battle, have full rage when whispers cast and equip a SLOW main hand. As long as you aren't retarded and burn your rage you should have him down with no problems.