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View Full Version : BT/Hyjal - Arms or Fury, would appreciate input.



Neverender
01-17-2008, 09:52 AM
My DPS Gear (It's very sub-par):
Dudefella <Ascent> Scarlet Crusade (http://scarletcrusade-us.warcrafter.net/Dudefella)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarlet+Crusade&n=Dudefella
(For Fury my weapons are Rage (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33495) MH, Decapitator (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28767) OH

Currently our guild is 8/9 BT, 5/5 Hyjal. I've only been a member for a week, I was recruited as a DPS/Prot warrior to spec as needed, my tank gear is much better (4/5 T5, several BT/Hyjal pieces.)

I've read up as much as I can on what I've been able to find for both DW Fury, and Arms DPS. Last night Cataclysms Edge dropped, and would've been DE'd if I didn't bid on it. (Didn't want to see that happen.) Up until this point I'd been DW Fury.

Now with CE as an available choice, I was wondering the viability of speccing arms for PvE DPS. Any input would be great, on spec as well as the overall choice between DW Fury/Arms. Also, there is no other raiding MS Warrior in the guild. So I'd be able to provide Blood Frenzy exclusively.

ebs2002
01-17-2008, 10:08 AM
I'd say Arms/Prot hybrid would be best for your guild, since you don't have an arms warrior currently.

Arms can be great PvE damage if you get a swing timer and spec improved slam. Plus, you don't need to worry as much about +hit as an arms warrior. Win-Win!

Kazeyonoma
01-17-2008, 10:12 AM
hrm, this would "probably" be your best spec if you wanted to go MS:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0xzAbox0dZVx0V0gRc)

and this if you wanted to go 2handed fury:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=Lq0xzIbZVx0V0gRVuqo)

the first couple of tiers can be moved around, but the key points is to have imp slam, as much flurry as possible, and rotate your skills properly.

your attack sequence should look something like this:

charge-> white hit -> mortal strike -> cast slam at last .5 seconds of swing timer -> white hit -> slam -> whirlwind -> cast slam at last .5 seconds of swing timer -> white hit -> slam -> mortal strike -> repeat

this way you get in 3 attacks every white swing time period and if you get any sword procs inbetween you'll be golden. If you're getting tons of rage (rare! as 2hander build) then queue up a heroic strike in there too.

other than that though, that's all you really need to know.

gearwise you should just get to about 30-35&#37; crit, and the rest dump it all into str for more attack power. You only need 9% or 9.6% (depending on who you listen to) as a 2hander in terms of hit% so if you go the MS route, you need it from gear, if you go the fury route, you only need 6% hit (eassssssssy to attain)

byechee
01-17-2008, 10:12 AM
go arms/fury, 33/28, getting 3 points in flurry is pretty important for you.

spec prot as needed, hybrid specs are worthless.

if you get a swing timer and windfury, you'll do respectable dps.

loadtoad
01-17-2008, 10:13 AM
I raid as a arms/bf warrior. Does your existing guild carry alot of physical dps when raiding? If so then the bf benefit is very good and cats edge is the best weapon for it at this time. Will you be getting a shaman? If not then your personal dps will be lacking although you are still giving the bf buff.

Using slam is prob where you want to start although some warriors use HS and get away with it doing very good dps as well. Slam spec requires some timing and good latency otherwise you end up with too much wasted time. I think there might be a guide to slam dps on this site and I know there is a nice guide posted on the wow europe warrior forums.

Good luck

Lav

Neverender
01-17-2008, 10:48 AM
Thank you for the replies.

I've got 9% hit as well as 35%+ (Closer to 41%) Crit raid buffed.
I have had a shaman 99% of the time so far.
I have Quartz for a swing timer.

I believe we carry Two Rogues, a Feral Druid, an Enhancement Shaman and a Retribution Paladin on at least every raid I've been on - as well as a BM Hunter. (So blood frenzy sounds very beneficial by what many are saying :) )

I don't spec Hybrid, as the I'm able to hold aggro on trash when needed as a DPS spec. I only spec protection if I'm needed on a boss, in which case my spot in the raid is as a protection warrior. The guild's been very awesome about it.



your attack sequence should look something like this:

charge-> white hit -> mortal strike -> cast slam at last .5 seconds of swing timer -> white hit -> slam -> whirlwind -> cast slam at last .5 seconds of swing timer -> white hit -> slam -> mortal strike -> repeat

this way you get in 3 attacks every white swing time period and if you get any sword procs inbetween you'll be golden. If you're getting tons of rage (rare! as 2hander build) then queue up a heroic strike in there too.


Thank you, very helpful. :)

So far in my gear as DW Fury, I've been able to sustain around a thousand DPS when in a melee buff group, usually 900ish when not. I'm curious as to if Arms will be comparable, though it seems with the BF debuff, that's almost negligible.

byechee
01-17-2008, 11:21 AM
with cat's edge you should be able to easily surpass what you were outputting with rage/decap.

tanking hyjal waves with cat's edge is also ftw. we utilize our arms war as our third trash tank and he's pretty good at this. you can easily handle a couple ghouls/fiends.

Kazeyonoma
01-17-2008, 01:01 PM
yeh, you should be comparable in terms of dps with your dw fury because of cat's edge. its a huge upgrade in ap and overall damage from your other two weapons. It might take a while to get used to the rotation but once it gets fluid you'll be pulling out very very nice dps, and even if you take a dip in dps by 100-200, i can guarantee that the 4&#37; buff to all that melee, EASILY makes up for whatever 100-200 dps increase you lose, they would only need to gain 20-40 dps to make up for your loss, and 4% could easily do that.

also if you have windfury in your group, you're gonna be a madman. what people who don't believe in 2handed dps don't realize is that windfury procs are more beneficial to slow 2handers because it basically gives you 2 huge swings as opposed to 2 small swings. it really is nice.

I went 33/28/0 in just a kara raid wearing pvp gear and deep thunder (mace spec ftl for pve dps) and i topped the charts with windfury totem. There's no reason you can't pull good numbers with cat's edge.

Tryxx
01-17-2008, 02:34 PM
I'd say Arms/Prot hybrid would be best for your guild, since you don't have an arms warrior currently.

Arms can be great PvE damage if you get a swing timer and spec improved slam. Plus, you don't need to worry as much about +hit as an arms warrior. Win-Win!

I read this post and tried to phathom what this build would look like. With complete theory crafting and a Warrior nowhere near 70, or any experience as arms, I've got this: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3500032135051002000100005200000000000 00000000350510030320100000000)

I think it allows for quite a bit of mitigation in the role of an off-tank. You can trade off Shouts and Thunderclap, which could give the MT some much needed rage, Disarm effectively, and stun for a decent amount of mitigation, but I honestly don't know how it'd really work out. But I think the emphasis I put in on it would be "back up saviour", which Imp. Intercept and the like. I just didn't know what 2 points to remove for Impale, it seems like that's a must, which is a problem.

Sorry, don't mean to hijack, just trying to learn.

Kazeyonoma
01-17-2008, 03:01 PM
for the most part, hybrids don't work with warriors, we're an extremes class

if we tank, we gotta spec for it, if we dps we gotta spec for it, going hybrid 31/5/15 is something of the past.

Wartorn
01-17-2008, 03:02 PM
With that much physical DPS the choice is clear: MS/Slam w/ Blood Frenzy. And you should be able to pull well over 1K DPS with that weapon and those stats.

Tryxx
01-17-2008, 03:07 PM
for the most part, hybrids don't work with warriors, we're an extremes class

if we tank, we gotta spec for it, if we dps we gotta spec for it, going hybrid 31/5/15 is something of the past.

I'm just glad it's something that's happened before, at least I don't feel completely stupid coming up with that. :p

Arrivan
01-17-2008, 03:11 PM
There's nothing more for me to say that hasn't already been said, but the massive weapon DPS upgrade going from Rage/Decap to CE would also make up for some lost DPS from going Arms. With as much physical DPS as you run with, Blood Frenzy would then make up the rest of the difference. You won't place as high on the meter, but your raid will thank you for it. I personally enjoy Fury too much to spec Arms for anything more than PVP, but if I got a weapon as imba as Cat's edge, I'd go 33/28 in a heartbeat :P

Neverender
01-17-2008, 07:29 PM
Well, definitely way way way lower on the meters.

I could not be used to the rotation, but I don't think that's it. I find I have enough rage for the rotation with ease, enough to throw in Heroic Strikes.
I'm more than sure the 4% made up for the difference, surpassing the personal gain.

But it's definably 1-200 DPS less sustained if not more. I feel like I'd have to be sitting on 35% crit at least unbuffed to hit comparable DPS. Chances are I'll be going back to DW Fury, as our melee numbers aren't always so high.

Kazeyonoma
01-17-2008, 11:47 PM
sorry to hear bud, it really depends on the situation, gratz on the sword nonetheless ;P

loadtoad
01-18-2008, 07:18 AM
More than likely you have your rotation off some. As soon as the white hit connects you have to be mashing the slam button. Quartz is not the best swing timer out there either. could check wowace for a better one.

I am usually anywhere from 2-7 on the meters depending on the fight. It may take you a while to get into the swing of things. This spec is actually harder to master than straight fury where you are waiting for cool downs most of the time.

My stats unbuffed are

1964 AP
31.5 crit
900 passive armor pen
120 hit or so

Keza
01-18-2008, 07:44 AM
http://www.honorbound.se/Slamdps.pdf

I've used this as a reference for slam it really breaks it down nicely. As others have already recommended Quartz is a must to get your timing down.

gl,

Kez

Keza
01-18-2008, 08:09 AM
Well, definitely way way way lower on the meters.

I could not be used to the rotation, but I don't think that's it. I find I have enough rage for the rotation with ease, enough to throw in Heroic Strikes.
I'm more than sure the 4% made up for the difference, surpassing the personal gain.

But it's definably 1-200 DPS less sustained if not more. I feel like I'd have to be sitting on 35% crit at least unbuffed to hit comparable DPS. Chances are I'll be going back to DW Fury, as our melee numbers aren't always so high.

Now that makes me sad to hear. I've always loved arms spec but it's not everyone's choice. Many folks have advised me to go fury but I have my reasons for staying MS and I've made it work for me and my fellow raiders.

One thing I never use in my rotation is HS. In my guild we have few threat monsters, so even with salv buffed I can't be using a high threat spell. My rotation is more of a white hit, slam at end of cycle, ms, ww, wash, rinse, repeat. The guide I posted previously is where I found the most useful info.

I am the only dedicated dps warrior in the guild. At times I tank when our MT is on hiatus for something. DPS wise I think I just rose a few spots in the ranks after making Lionheart Executioner and putting Executioner enchant on it. I've been gunning for my spot on the dps meter for a while, I feel like I've finally made it solidly into the top 5 if not top 3.

gl,

Kez

Neverender
01-18-2008, 08:46 AM
I really do appreciate the input, thank you.

Like I said, a lot of it could be me not being used to the rotation.
As for the swing timer, my latency in BT last night was around 75, and the moment I pressed the hotkey for slam, it started casting. I had to hit it right after the swing timer finished, because if I hit it even .2 before it was going to swing, it would reset the timer.

I also spent about an hour before the raid, getting used to the swing timer on those servants in blasted lands, though it wasn't ideal as I'd parry from time to time.
In retrospect, I didn't have windfury for the first time. I could see that accounting for ~100 DPS, but 200-300? Seems unlikely in my experience, though I'm always open to learning. :)

It's completely possible my Crit wasn't high enough to push this build, I do only have 28% unbuffed crit in zerk.
If this is the case I may be revisiting the spec at a different gear point. I did get a few drops last night. :)

Ukyo
01-18-2008, 08:50 AM
T6 WarriorGuide: How to DPS with MS By Killianz (http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=58960)

nice vid that i saw yesterday wondering about MS as a viable DPS Spec, kinda liked it, hope it helps you ^^

byechee
01-18-2008, 08:52 AM
uhhhhh not having wf is a huge deal for you. try it again next raid and make sure u get that shaman.

Keza
01-18-2008, 08:54 AM
Indeed, wf adds 100-200 to my dps.

Kez

Wartorn
01-21-2008, 01:50 PM
Your crit rate is fine for MS. Flurry only eats up white swings, so it should refresh with all the slams/MS/WW/WF you get in between white swings.

Landais
01-24-2008, 05:56 AM
Hi everyone

i'm 33/28 and yesterday i received my 4th T6, i want to use a new template with imp MS like this (my weapon is Cataclysm edge).

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czAbotcdMZEV0V0MM)

or

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0czAbotcdmZEV0V0M)

Do you think its better than a flurry template? (T6 bonus stack with imp MS)

Ceravantes
01-24-2008, 06:08 AM
Imp ms is nearly useless in PvE, you would be far from making up lost dmg from flurry. Imp slam builds are very limited if you want to remain competetive.

Meeks
01-24-2008, 06:15 AM
charge-> white hit -> mortal strike -> cast slam at last .5 seconds of swing timer -> white hit -> slam -> whirlwind -> cast slam at last .5 seconds of swing timer -> white hit -> slam -> mortal strike -> repeat


I might just be reading this wrong but you seem to be recomending to MS before slam?


Attack rotation is pretty simple. You should be hitting slam as your auto attack starts every time. If you are feeling risky and see your lag on quartz you can hit slam before your auto swing finishes. For example if you are seeing 300ms lag then hit slam when there is 300ms left in your auto attack. This is of course risky as if you jump the gun a little you will loose your auto attack. However as you get the feel of things this method is needed to maximize dps if you do not have perfect lag.

Here is my rotation assuming rage is not an issue:

Auto attack --> Slam --> MS
Auto attack --> Slam --> WW
Auto attack --> Slam --> MS
Auto attack --> Slam --> Demo Shout

The most important thing is that slam is more important then MS and WW. So ALWAYS slam after the autoattack and then ms or WW if there is extra rage.

Also 33/28 blood frenzy/flurry is the only raid spec to consider.

Landais
01-24-2008, 06:16 AM
ok thx for the answer

for a fury spec, with 5/5 flurry should i use archimonde sword (3.50 speed) or reliquary mace (3.8 speed) ?

my ideas

archimonde sword : more white swings but hard to make the slam cycle

reliquary mace : big slam (cause its not normalized) and more easy to time the swing.

Meeks
01-24-2008, 06:20 AM
ok thx for the answer

for a fury spec, with 5/5 flurry should i use archimonde sword (3.50 speed) or reliquary mace (3.8 speed) ?

my ideas

archimonde sword : more white swings but hard to make the slam cycle

reliquary mace : big slam (cause its not normalized) and more easy to time the swing.


I am going to say this once and use big letter to drive my point home. Do not mean to come off as rude but this is very important.


MACES BAD...SWORDS GOOD.

MACES VERY VERY BAD.


Also for a slam build your ideal post haste speed is 2.5 seconds. You reach that with a 3.5 sword, flurry, and gruul trinket.

The reason for this is that the faster you attack the more often you can slam. However 2.5 is the fastest you can reach because of global cooldowns.

You slam and reset your attack timer. Slam take .5 secods to cast so you are left with 1 second cooldown. Wait 1 sec then hit MS and activate another 1.5 seconds global cooldown. 1 + 1.5 = 2.5 seconds. This is the earliest you can auto attack and hit slam again.

MACES VERY VERY VERY BAD.

Kazeyonoma
01-24-2008, 10:48 AM
sorry for confusion, its just that the very first rotation i normally don't slam until i get the rotation going. but you're correct, you should probably ignore the first MS and do something like

white hit -> cast slam -> white hit -> slam -> ms -> cast slam -> white hit -> slam -> ww -> etc.

my mistake.