View Full Version : kara woes
01-17-2008, 07:24 AM
so im just starting to get into kara. i am finding that im having alot of trouble at times with the inital aggro on trash. bosses are absloutley no problem at all. infact i as long as im healed and not many die, they are kind of easy. i have also noticed alot of people wearing crit heavy gladiator gear, maybe thats part of it?
I usually open with bow pulls, pop bloodrage and commanding shout if its needed, then rage dependant pop shield slam or devistate. im not sure if its my gear or rotation. i spam devistate, shield slam and revenge as much as possible.
i think one of my problems is i am not generating alot of rage on the trash mobs and when i loose aggro, i dont have tons to dump back in to get the mob on me fully.
here is my spec and gear, maybe u guys can give me some insight.
01-17-2008, 07:30 AM
Are you losing aggro to the healers or the DPS? Are you using sharpening stones?
I would open with SS rather than any of your shouts. SS, Devastate, spam Devastate until SS is available again, then back to Devastate until 5 are applied, then apply your shouts, in between SS.
01-17-2008, 07:36 AM
If you're losing agro to the dps - are they ranged and if so are they opening up before the mob has run to you - a crit pyroblast as the mob gets to you is a guarentee agro problem.
Are the rogues stunning trash?
Like OldHarry I'd suggest leaving the shouts til later.
In your spec, you've got imp bloodrage so you should have enough to SS immediately as the mobs gets to you. I'd recommend imp sunder armour (makes devestates cheaper) instead of imp taunt or imp shield bash. Imp revenge may be causing you rage starvation problems?
If you're losing agro to the healers, ask them to wait a few before healing, over enthusiastic healers healing you up the amount you lose to bloodrage can be a problem.
Apart from that make sure bloodrage is off cd every pull.
Hope some of this helps
01-17-2008, 07:39 AM
in last nights run it was dps. there were 2 other tanks in the group. both were speced for dps with s3 gladiator gear and some s1/kara fillins. ther was also a ret pally, man he was a pain to pull mobs back off of.
i dont seem to loose it to healers much. I dont know. I have a well geared destro lock. I dont seem to pull onthe tanks when i raid kara. it also might be the tanks i take my lock in there with are geared for tk/hyjal.
01-17-2008, 07:48 AM
your spec needs changing, imp shield bash and imp revenge need to go. And imp sunder armor is amazing for rage conservation.
i always start in zerker stance. I ranged pull, pop my zerker rage, go defensive stance, then bloodrage. By the time the mob gets to me i can instantly cast shield slam and once they hit me thx to zerker rage i have np popping revenge, devestate and heroic strikes immediatly to pop my threat somewhere between 3-6k in teh first few seconds.
IF your to lose aggro, make sure when you taunt(imp taunt is next to useless in kara, don't put talent points into it if your a raider) make sure you have a high threat ability to back it up like shield slam or revenge. Taunt will put you even with the highest persons threat once you use it. So using your Shield slam immediatly after taunt is basically gauranteeing you'll be back ahead of threat by a couple thousand. But in kara you shouldn't have a problem with threat as long as you zerker rage and shield slam for opening.
01-17-2008, 08:04 AM
even when i taunted and SS at times i was not pullin it off the person it was wailing on. its not so much inital threat i was having trouble with. it was 1/2 thru some of the harder trash, like servants pat in the hallyway to maiden for some reason.
I dont do kara every week yet, so if i change my spec around am i going to have trouble in the 5 mans at all?
01-17-2008, 08:43 AM
so i respeced and took out imp revenge and shield bash. i instead put them into imp sunder and 2 into imp def stance. ill see how that goes. I didnt want to take out imp taunt. i know its only 2 sec, but im doing alot of pug badge runs in heroics for my pants. I see way to many dps whores in there so i might need it? if not, well i change it again.
so far the comments were all on spec and pulling, so i am assuming the gear is fine. i have pretty much all the def rings (5 of them) and chest pieces (3) from pre kara at this point. maybe less dodge and more + hit for the trash?
01-17-2008, 09:09 AM
From what you have said it is clearly the dps'rs fault you are losing aggro. There is nothing you can do about this except to educate them. Here are some things I would do:
1. Make sure everyone has a threat meter. Make it mandatory to be in the raid. Omen is the current star. You should have it too so you can tell who is gonna pull off you and say something in vent.
2. Make sure that no damage meters are allowed to be shown in raid/guild chat. They just make dps crazy with the desire to top the meter.
3. If they do pull off you on trash after warning them and such, let them die before you pick the mob back up.
4. Make sure that all ranged dps is not in melee range. If they are in melee they will pull off you at 110% of your threat - if they are not they don't pull til they have 130% of your threat.
5. Try to get everyone out of max dps gear. Arena/BG gear is burst damage. Raid damage should be sustained damage.
6. Just make them aware that the raids will go faster and smoother if the pulls are smooth. Smoother and faster = more bosses per run = more loot.
7. Try to create a culture of progression rather than following the damage meters. You can do Kara with stupid dps but eventually the trash you face will be as hard as Kara bosses and life will truly begin to suck then.
8. Another thing you can do is have the raid wait to start dps until you call it out. Before BC it was easy - everyone ALWAYS waited for 5 sunders. Now its a little different as the rotation is more complex - but making them wait until you have a firm hold is a good thing. Also builds discipline which will be needed in later fights.
PS I have tanked all of Kara except for Netherspite and Nightbane with imp taunt, imp revenge and imp shield bash. Was doing tons of heroics at that point and I like those things. Easy is better than hard.
01-17-2008, 10:23 AM
I am currently tanking kara with people who have a mix of PvE epics, S1/S2/S3, and badge gear. For normal trash, they give me 3 sunders/5k threat, whichever comes 1st. I have had to educate a few on how to work with threat in a raid though. i.e. Let them pay 20-30g in repair bills every 45-60min and its AMAZING how quickly they learn how to work in a raid situation. We run with a prot warrior (me), prot pally, and 2 healers, holy priest and pally. Everyone now understands that their primary focus is the 2 tanks to begin with. If they want to pull aggro, they will die before either of us pulls it back off of them. They learn to watch the threat meter, and several of them improved their dps by doing so. If you don't say anything to get them to work with you, you'll only get more frustrated.
I have imp taunt, but no imp shield bash or revenge, and i will be dropping imp taunt for 2 points in imp demo. That's even more of an incentive not to try and rip mobs off the tank as fast as possible.
I have done my job though, I am geared well enough to tank all the way up to nightbane, +threat enchant, etc. I can generate enough threat to stay ahead of hard dps, but not excessive OMGWTFPWN burst damage from idiots. If everyone is not willing to work together, boot em and find people that will.
01-17-2008, 02:43 PM
i think part was based off the spec, but also as stated above has to do with the glad crit heavy gear in kara. even on the 5 mans heroics it has been hard to keep up at times. but kara i dont think it should be there as much.
my guid raids BT regularly ( not farm ) and i dont seem to have much problem with them ever. i do remeber the pally pulled on me hard and critted like 4 or 5 in one fight for like 2k. he said it him self, the floor tastes good tonight. ill post back up after i run with the new spec a bit and see it helped.
01-17-2008, 11:58 PM
so i went back tonight after the respec. had much easier time getting rage to dump, actually had tons of rage. between mongoose enchant, respec and movin the buttons on the bars a bit i had no problems at all. that dam S3 pvp ret pally kept killin him self tho. he will learn sooner or later.
bonus....got my new wrynn pants as well. /dance
thanks guys for the help
01-18-2008, 02:16 AM
Some of Maiden's trash seems to drop agro when they change and some seduce. The odd pull due to a spectacular crit isn't a problem, but agro is an entire raid's problem. Also, if the dps you're running with is the same dps who is in BT they will have to hold back a bit.
Let us know how it goes.
03-08-2008, 04:25 AM
LOL welfare epics do not belong in pve raids, this has always been my opinion, their nature of stats can make things more difficult then necessary, unpredictable burst and spikes in damage are plain dangerous.
The raid should be about one thing....progression, not epeen, not about the individual the whole as one, and not about what is in it for me idiology, the loot/epics will flow in due time.