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brain9h
01-15-2008, 09:16 AM
Hello Guys,

My guild just progressed to 3/4 TK 5/6 SSC with me as main tank, and I've been seriously thinking how to spend my dkp, and my analysis tell me the T5's are not an upgrade for me, which sounds strange at least

My 5-piece "set" currently is:
Tankatronic Goggles
Destroyer Shoulderguards
Merciless Gladiator's Plate Chestpiece
Bonefist Gauntlets
Unwavering Legguards

T5 would be
Destroyer Greathelm
Destroyer Shoulderguards
Destroyer Chestguard
Destroyer Handguards
Destroyer Legguards

I made an excel sheet of the differences, and to be able to compare things I assumed that 1% hit = 1% threat (I'm not capped), 1% crit == 1% threat (I know it isn't, cause innate threat can't crit, but this simplifies the comparison and only favours the T5). I also considered some gem bonuses that I currently have with my set. I also equalled dodge rating and parry rating to simplify things, they are not really important in this comparison

So in rough numbers, If I upgrade to full T5 I get

Pluses:
+113 armor
+98 agility (3% avoidance, 4.5% threat, 200 armor)
+52 strength (114 AP / 8 dps (minor threat) )
+61 defense (3% avoidance)
+5 dodge rating (not relevant)
+25 block rating (not relevant)
+18 block value (not relevant)
+ Set bonuses ( I don't really think they are a big deal )

Minuses:
-102 stamina
-24 hit rating (-1.5% threat)
-35 critical strike rating (-1.5% threat)

or, in simple terms, +313 armor, +6.3% avoidance, +1.65% threat, -1178 HP (with kings, and vitality on all stats)

Is this an upgrade?

EH:
I lose a hell of effective health, and my stamina really helps me on progression tanking, +313 armor doesn't make up for it, not even barely, I think.

AVOIDANCE:
My defense is ok (489 - 515 depending on other gear swaps). I can tank almost anything so far confortably with 500 defense/17% dodge/parry values. Do I need more avoidance, why? How does 1100 HP compares to 6% avoidance? Is jumping from 41% avoidance to 47% avoidance such a big deal? For the challenges that lie ahead in MH/BT, do I need stupidly high avoidance scores?

THREAT:
I don't like the idea of losing rage and rage stability because of +6% avoidance, neither changing my hit rating score (reliable) for a bunch of agility, which is more unreliable and not roughly equivalent. With +hit affecting taunts, and with battles like Leo where I need to land my shield slams... don't like the idea. Also, I can already pump 1000-1300 TPS, I don't need more threat.

Am I crazy to think the T5's are not an upgrade?

Kazeyonoma
01-15-2008, 10:22 AM
if you are genuinely progressing and not just doing farm content, stick with your current set up, let the others win on dkp to better progress the guilds gear as a whole and save dkp for weapons and offsets, not to mention if you carry dkp into t6, you could gear out fast.

veneretio
01-15-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm in the same position as you and ultimately I decided that the T5 gloves were worth picking up since they are probably already better than Bonefist (i had bonefist too) and more to the point, the 2 piece set bonus of T5 is awesome. However, I highly doubt I'll be picking up any of the other pieces of T5 except possibly the T5 helm since I've got the ZA helm not the Tankatronic.

kryonik
01-15-2008, 01:30 PM
If you could get the T5 chestguard, I'd say replace the S2 chest with that. You lose 3 stamina, but gain so many tanking stats. Plus the 2piece set bonus for T5 is really good. Beefier shield slams whenever you use shield block? HELL YEAH!

Spardok
01-15-2008, 02:13 PM
Hey Brain9h, looked at your armory, but you had your pvp/dps gear equipped, what kind of gems are you using for your progression gear? I'm curious, because I've been able to put out ~6 to 8 hundred tps, and am looking for ways to increase...

byechee
01-15-2008, 03:58 PM
the set bonus Shield Block Value doesn't count towards shield slam damage. reread the wording carefully.

Hi. Did you ever wonder how shield slam damage is calculated? Why, it's calculated from how much block value you have, silly goose! Thus, given a 2 pc t5 bonus that grants 100 bv upon use of shield block, that in turn would grant 100 extra shield slam damage before mitigation, assuming you don't lose the buff by blocking an attack! golly gee willickers batman!

As for answering the OP's question, there's just so much gear out there now, especially with all that ZA stuff, that most items are becoming side-grades more and more, each having its pluses and minuses. If you can successfully tank bosses with your current gear, there's definitely no harm in waiting for better gear to drop and letting under-geared players pick up valuable upgrades.

I would definitely pick up a new chest (either t5 or the badge/za one, i forget where it's from) and t5 gloves, as bonefist are kinda really bad for normal tanking, but may pay dividends as stam gear on Kael for eating fireballs.

Nez
01-15-2008, 04:02 PM
I think hes referring to the exact wording. You gain an additional 100 block value "AGAINST" the next attack. I read that as meaning that you gain 100 BV for the next attack made on you. Not made by you.?.?

byechee
01-15-2008, 04:11 PM
block value works both ways here just like it does as an equip stat on tank gear. basically this bonus increases your block value by 100. haven't you all learned by now not to read into blizzard's wording on tooltips? anyway, it's been tried and tested (personally and third-partyly). sorry if i wasn't clear enough.

Narshe
01-15-2008, 11:50 PM
Set bonus does indeed increase your shield slam damage, but you need to be fast (make a macro). When you use shield block, you get a buff that says "Block value increased by 100" or something and you lose that debuff when the next attack arrives. What I've forgotten is if an avoided attack also cancel de debuff :S

For the OP, I would get the set bonus. You can either get the T5 helm (better than T6 in every stat but armor) or go for the T5 chest (more hit, more defensive stats vs. some increase in armor).
Gloves are not worth it, imho. They lack too much stamina, and you can replace them too fast (Kael'thas, Azgalor or Teron are soooo close).
Legs are really really good and imho you could stay with them till T6 ones.

brain9h
01-16-2008, 05:57 AM
I'm in the same position as you and ultimately I decided that the T5 gloves were worth picking up since they are probably already better than Bonefist (i had bonefist too) and more to the point, the 2 piece set bonus of T5 is awesome. However, I highly doubt I'll be picking up any of the other pieces of T5 except possibly the T5 helm since I've got the ZA helm not the Tankatronic.

Good to hear I'm not alone in my thoughts :D

But as for the gauntlets, I don't wanna lose 24 stamina, 21 hit rating in exchange for 25 defense rating and 44 block value. It might be that I don't value block value so much... indeed I don't, at least not before I reach my hit cap.

Seriously, don't you think hit rating is more important? Not missing shield slams, not getting resisted in taunts, not missing the first attacks against a mob... this reliability is what makes my tanking solid, in my opinion.

In your case I would certainly take the head and stay with head+shoulders, but keep the bonefist :D

brain9h
01-16-2008, 06:09 AM
If you could get the T5 chestguard, I'd say replace the S2 chest with that. You lose 3 stamina, but gain so many tanking stats. Plus the 2piece set bonus for T5 is really good. Beefier shield slams whenever you use shield block? HELL YEAH!

At some point I will get the T5 chest as an avoidance piece, but I'm yet to see necessity. The s2 is perfect, gives me more HP, armor and hit rating.

Edhellin
01-16-2008, 10:01 AM
I have to admit. I love your armory. Gear is very well selected and stats are quiet good. The only problem I would have would be your expertise. Kudos to you on a more unconventional but very successful tank setup.

When it comes down to it, I would have to say keep your gauntlets and keep what you are wearing in general. Yes the 100 SBV helps, but it isn't 100% passive and the HP/avoidance/hit/armor/etc you would lose would probably not be worth it.

brain9h
01-16-2008, 12:38 PM
I have to admit. I love your armory. Gear is very well selected and stats are quiet good. The only problem I would have would be your expertise. Kudos to you on a more unconventional but very successful tank setup.

When it comes down to it, I would have to say keep your gauntlets and keep what you are wearing in general. Yes the 100 SBV helps, but it isn't 100% passive and the HP/avoidance/hit/armor/etc you would lose would probably not be worth it.

Thanks, glad you like it. I usually swap my back, trinkets and gun slots depending on the fight.

You hit spot on when you mention expertise, buying the neck and bracers are my top priority now.

Wartorn
01-17-2008, 03:13 PM
1) The 2 piece set bonus does add to your SS. It's an amazing set bonus.

2) I'd grab the shoulders and the chest. You can replace all the other stuff in ZA/BT/Hyjal pretty easily.

brain9h
01-29-2008, 05:53 AM
I'm finding a strong avoidance set quite useful for Zul'Aman, since healing is mostly reactive there, and I look forward to be able to do the place with just 2 healers to speed up our pace and anticipate the day when we will beat the 4 chest run in time.

The T5 bonuses to avoidance could prove quite useful for that, but then again... I haven't done much research into it but I don't think they are the best avoidance pieces available, not sure.

Clifford
02-03-2008, 04:29 AM
So far I have passed on all the T5 items. My plans are to take the T5 shoulders (if a defender token ever drops *sigh*) and T5 chest (when we get there).

I am undecided on the gloves when we go to Leo tonight. I am still using the Maiden gloves as I gather badges slowly. The benefit of the T5 gloves seem to be the nice balance of stats but at a drop in EH. Bonefist seems to be the way to go.

Link
02-03-2008, 07:29 AM
You seem to know which 2 Tier5 make the most sense to get but obviously don't let the other T5 go if you can get them for cheap.

Armstrong
02-03-2008, 10:38 AM
Get the T5 chest if you can. Between where you are and Illidan, it's either Destroyer Chestguard or Glory of the Defender, which has a lower drop rate and is four bosses down the road.

Don't replace Bonefist with T5. Save your DKP for Gauntlets of Enforcement.

Clifford
02-04-2008, 01:20 AM
Apologies for being a bit off-topic:
I want several BoJ items (as per above discussion) but seldom get the time for heroics and kara clears. The irony is that I need to clear farmed instances for gear (BoJ) and progression instances for ... fun and progression.

Blizzard has certainly turned this game upside down pre-T6. :D

Sandmann
02-04-2008, 05:42 AM
i wonder how good the t5 chest Destroyer Chestguard is if you compare it to Chestguard of the Warlord - would it be worth the dkp if you allready have Chestguard of the Warlord?

Pagezero
02-04-2008, 02:17 PM
26 agility + 24 dodge is just about the same dodge percentage as 40 dodge, T5 has 25 str, crit from agi and set bonus, otherwise they are just about the same.

Aelvain
02-04-2008, 06:17 PM
Healers notice 6% avoidance.

Notalda
02-05-2008, 12:54 AM
To answer the OP, I use 4/5 T5 for my all-around tanking gear, as I love the bonuses. The (2) is awesome with a trinket+shield block+shield slam macro, (4) is lovely on trash.

Random other items may have more stamina, or more avoidance, but T5 is a healthy mix of it all, in my opinion.

And, unlike some ZA items (*cough* helm *cough*), it does not look completely horrendous.

Davion
02-05-2008, 01:47 AM
I am in sort of the same situation, as i want one more T5 piece to get the set bonus. Im leaning towards the Vashj helm atm, we just downed her. Also, Kael is gonna be a while so i will have plenty of time to save points. But i like the avoidance ill get from T5 legs and i might grab them, because im not sure when we will kill Vashj again.

Warriorc
02-05-2008, 06:08 AM
I saw you calculated some things with Agi, but did you also calculate the Crit you get off it? since it says you lose some crit if you change gear.

Anyways, i would go t5 -allmost- all the way. Stacking stamina is good, np with that. But agi and str are major factors in generating threat. Owhyeah ;p please dont tank with pvp gear! :P

greetz

brain9h
02-06-2008, 02:13 PM
Yes I did factor in everything that agility provides. I'm still undecided.

I've been experiencing with more avoidance and I hate being rage starved :(

Notalda
02-06-2008, 03:12 PM
Just today, doing a random heroic, one of our shadow priests said that I do way more threat than our other tank. He went for stamina all the way, with the helm & chest from ZA, 2/5 T5. I keep a threat set with expertise/hit/SBV for heroics.

The difference is noticable, the shadow priest said. He could very easily pull aggro from the other tank, even after letting him build threat for a few seconds. He could never pull aggro from me, not even when he started nuking right away.

And neither of us tanks used taunt, and we both know how to play. The difference in gear is that noticable at times. Hence the reason I like to keep different sets.

Grakzul Slaughtbringer
02-13-2008, 05:34 AM
I have the same problem. I have just picked up the T5 gloves, but I won't equip them until the second piece of T5, for the bonus.
For the second piece I will take the legguards since we don't go in tempest keep yet (we are trying Vashj currently)...

Another dilemma: what enchant will you put on your gloves?
Currently I have 2% threat on Bonefist, what should I put on the T5? another 2% threat or something like 10 stamina?

Irellman
02-13-2008, 05:43 AM
For gloves:

Bonefist = EH = +240 armor.
T5 = Threat = +2% threat.

Foolishness
02-13-2008, 06:07 AM
When i hear a tank ask "Is this an upgrade?" its translates to me as "I am too lazy to change my gear around so which item is better for every situation".

And the answer is usually "stam and threat win". Next time, don't bother asking.

What is better for writing? A ballpoint pen or a thick felt tip marker? Maybe a crayon? Well that would depend on what your drawing on wouldn't it. Dumb question.

Sure you say you change your trinkets and guns around, but seriously to me thats a very lazy approach. Every tank who wants to be their best should be using outfitter to change their ENTIRE setup for EVERY fight to OPTIMISE the situation.

Which gets me back to the original point.

If you want to know if some gear is an upgrade, you need to specify what you are using it for. For example: I want to tank tidewalker, is this item piece an upgrade? Or... I want to tank Kael, is this item piece an upgrade? Two completely different situations.

Also T5 is not a piece of gear. T5 is a set of gear. Each piece in the set is as different as any other piece of gear, some will favor EH sets, while some will favor avoidance sets.

My advice to you is to decide which fights are going to be the most difficult, and what gear is the best for them. Then only spend DKP on those pieces. Also as far as threat is concerned, make sure you don't waste stats on threat stats if you don't need them. 1300 TPS might be impressive but if your best warrior can only do 1000 DPS then 1300 is a waste of survivability.