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View Full Version : Endless Rage to Rage Starvation



ebs2002
01-15-2008, 09:30 AM
Our guild has recently started blowing through Karazhan, but we have three tanks, so we're on a rotation. The last time I was in was right before Christmas, and I experienced no rage issues or threat issues: I was regularly seeing over 900 TPS.

I just went in again last night, but between my last run and this one, I've seen a considerable amount of upgrades. I went from Thalodien's Charm to Barbed Choker of Discipline (brought in last week for Maiden since none of the other two tanks needed any of her drops), from Sha'tari Wrought Armguards to Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx, from Netherwing Protector's Shield to Crest of the Sha'tar, and from the Breastplate of Kings to Bulwark of Kings.

The problem now is, my rage generation just isn't cutting it (especially on trash and in heroics). The start of a pull is fine, but once Bloodrage is down, I have a hard time picking up the next mob. As we all know, the problem with rage is, if you're not getting hit, you're not generating rage, and thus you can't get enough threat to start getting hit. In heroics, my guess is that it's due to my increased stats (my armor shot up significantly) causing me to take less damage. In Karazhan, I'm not sure what I can do

When we're in Karazhan, It's not a huge deal because we have a well-geared feral druid who is able to pick up the mobs (and for all I know, he's spamming his threat-skills to make my life more difficult), but does anyone have any suggestions for how I can remedy this?

Normally, when I'm low on rage and trying to pick up a mob, I wind up spamming devastate, but should I be skipping this and only shield-slamming until I pick up threat? Are there any easy gear upgrades I can pick up to increase my threat?

A link to my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&n=Curnguz

One thing to note: I do have Maiden's gloves for trash, and had been using it at the time of this writing. I'm thinking my next badge purchase will be the Auto-Blocker, although I could still use the legs and belt. I know my defense is a little low, which doesn't give me much room to swap out gear for +hit before I dip below 490, but I suppose I could gem up my Maiden Gauntlets with +4def +6sta or +8def gems to give me more room. Another option, although I'm not sure if this is worth it, is to replace one of my Felsteel Leggings (I was grinding them for Blacksmithing Skillups) and gem them for defense to let me swap in +hit jewelry. I just don't know which direction to turn.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Taelas
01-16-2008, 01:25 AM
Spamming Devastate with a dagger isn't smart.

ebs2002
01-16-2008, 01:43 AM
I've been farming like crazy for The Sun Eater, and I'm brought in to every Chess Event we run for King's Defender, but so far I've been unsuccessful. My only other options in the bank right now are Grom'tor's Charge (mitigation weapon, not threat weapon) or Reflex Blades (way too slow, but I picked it up a while ago for soloing when I was specced protection a while back.

I'm thinking maybe I could finish up my Thrallmar rep for Warbringer (yay axe specialization). What other options do I have that I can do when I'm locked out of Heroic Mech? Or is the Warbringer my best bet?

Andromedea
01-16-2008, 01:46 AM
I don't see anything wrong with your gear. I had those things starting Kara too. Diff is I picked up the badge chest instead of Bulwark of Kings.

I'm thinking that now that you have better gear, you might be getting less rage. What is your rotation on trash?

Also I checked out your talents and I don't really see a need to have 3/3 Imp Revenge! Stuns are bad! Stuns = mob not hitting you = no rage!

I'd suggest dropping that, picking up Imp Bloodrage and Anger Management.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Warrior -> Talent Calculator (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?3500030100000000000000005000000000000 00000002055511033000103501351)

Taelas
01-16-2008, 02:10 AM
I've been farming like crazy for The Sun Eater, and I'm brought in to every Chess Event we run for King's Defender, but so far I've been unsuccessful. My only other options in the bank right now are Grom'tor's Charge (mitigation weapon, not threat weapon) or Reflex Blades (way too slow, but I picked it up a while ago for soloing when I was specced protection a while back.

I'm thinking maybe I could finish up my Thrallmar rep for Warbringer (yay axe specialization). What other options do I have that I can do when I'm locked out of Heroic Mech? Or is the Warbringer my best bet?

Grom'tor's Charge is superior to the Retainer's Blade due to the instant attack mechanics, but that's not why you should take it. You're an Orc. That's a free 5 Expertise. Grab Grom'tor's. It'll help.

And yeah, Warbringer is great for an orc (if a tad slow). I'd probably use it over The Sun Eater, though not over King's Defender.

ebs2002
01-16-2008, 02:17 AM
The reason I was sticking with Imp Revenge is because I also run a lot of heroics, and I had read an article somewhere talking about how Imp Revenge was excellent in heroics. I also thought I read somewhere that there is a threat bonus applied when the stun actually works, but I may just be imagining that.

On trash, I try to go SS > Revenge > Devastate, whichever is up, with HS thrown in whenever I have >50 rage. When I had endless rage, It was usually SS (HS), Revenge (HS), Devastate (HS), Devastate (HS), repeat.

I'm not having an issue with the single trash pulls, it's the multiple ones that get me there.

Usually, I pull, pop bloodrage, Shield Slam my primary target, then Thunderclap, Devastate primary, switch to secondary and Shield Slam/Revenge that (SS if it's up, otherwise Revenge), Devastate the secondary, then SS Primary > Revenge Primary > Devastate Primary > Devastate Secondary, repeat.

The main problem is, the druid usually pulls threat off my secondary (or tertiary if we're light on CC) and I have a hard time picking it back up without losing control of one of my other mobs, and once my primary target is dead, I've lost my rage source and the druid has to start building threat on my mob to keep the DPS from pulling threat.

Tonight, I managed to pick up the heroic BF greaves, which gave me a lot more defense to play with, and I build a threat set that got me up to 328 SBV, 65 Hit, 11 Expertise, 786 AP, 13.72% crit chance, 12.9k hp and 14.6k armor (all unbuffed). Does that sound ok? I'm not sure how much I should value +hit and +AP vs keeping my HP/Armor/Evasion up.

ebs2002
01-16-2008, 02:22 AM
Grom'tor's Charge is superior to the Retainer's Blade due to the instant attack mechanics, but that's not why you should take it. You're an Orc. That's a free 5 Expertise. Grab Grom'tor's. It'll help.

And yeah, Warbringer is great for an orc (if a tad slow). I'd probably use it over The Sun Eater, though not over King's Defender.

Does this apply both to trash and boss tanking, or just for trash? For bosses, somebody told me that weapon speed is king. Assuming I haven't gotten the Warbringer yet, should I use Grom'tor's for trash, and swap in the dagger for HS spamming on bosses, or trash the dagger altogether?

Once I pick up another 14k (ugh) Thrallmar rep, I'll pick up the Warbringer.

Thanks for all your help, guys :)

Andromedea
01-16-2008, 02:28 AM
Actually the more I think about it, I think your druid OT is being over-enthusiastic. ;p

I once ran with one in a Kara who kept intentionally taunting mobs I was tanking off me and it really annoyed me though I guess he thought he was being helpful. I figure sometimes all tanks just *need* to prove they can out aggro the others so in the end I just marked a mob for him to OT solo and he stopped being a pain in the butt.

I would use Grom'tor's too, if I were an orc in your position. Lol. Oh and I don't think Imp Revenge's stun helps with aggro.

Grabmill
01-16-2008, 04:17 AM
I don't get you I'm afraid. Why don't you just split up the targets, i.e. you tank one and the feral druid tanks another one? Then you both have an easy time keeping aggro.

Taelas
01-16-2008, 06:20 AM
Does this apply both to trash and boss tanking, or just for trash? For bosses, somebody told me that weapon speed is king. Assuming I haven't gotten the Warbringer yet, should I use Grom'tor's for trash, and swap in the dagger for HS spamming on bosses, or trash the dagger altogether?
Expertise is definitely for bosses.

While having a fast weapon is really good, there are too many disadvantages to using a dagger over a different one-hand weapon.

Instant attacks calculate the damage bonus from attack power with a normalized weapon speed. All daggers act as if they're 1.7, all other one-hand weapons act as if they're 2.4, all two-handed weapons act as if they're 3.3. Now -- this is just for the attack power bonus, and only on instant attacks.

In addition to this, a faster weapon has a lower damage range than a slower weapon with the same DPS. This means that if you have a fast one-hand (say, King's Defender) and a slow one (The Decapitator, for example), the slow weapon will hit for more than the fast one, despite getting the same attack power bonus.

So, a fast dagger has the disadvantage that a) the attack power bonus is lower, and b) the damage range is lower. It only has one advantage, namely speed for Heroic Strikes -- and while 0.1 second does matter in the long run, the disadvantages of using a dagger doesn't make up for the increased speed. And that's assuming you use it; if you don't have enough rage to hit the dagger on every swing, or even if it simply hits too fast for you to activate Heroic Strike every time, the speed matters preciously little. If you can do it, and you have the rage, the additional Heroic Strikes (which each get the Heroic Strike threat bonus) of course make up for a good part of it, but I wouldn't say it's enough. Especially since, when rage-starved, you won't be using Heroic Strike.

So in a rage-starved situation, The Decapitator is a superior tanking weapon to King's Defender.

Plus 5 Expertise is awesome. Really.

As for the multi-mob pulls, the way I usually handle them is pretty simple. I make sure my group knows they are only to attack the target I'm currently focusing on, and I simply spam Improved Thunderclap as often as possible. During Thunderclap's cooldown, I spam Shield Slam, Revenge and Devastate as much as I can on the primary target, and I substitute Heroic Strike with Cleave. It's more than enough to hold off healer aggro.

On groups with more than four mobs, I simply move a bit between each Thunderclap application.

If the druid pulls mobs off of you, let him. Fighting for aggro is rarely good. You also don't have to tank everything -- there's nothing wrong with your OT taking his own target. If it annoys you so much, inform him; but really, it shouldn't.

ebs2002
01-16-2008, 07:40 AM
Thanks, everyone, for the advice.

I don't get you I'm afraid. Why don't you just split up the targets, i.e. you tank one and the feral druid tanks another one?
That's what we do. If there's a 4-mob non-CCable pull, I get skull and triangle, he gets X and Circle, and we kill Skull-X-Triangle-Circle. The problem is, unless I'm fighting my group far away from his, I wind up losing Circle early and I can't get it back.

We aren't wiping, but it's just a pain in the butt.


If the druid pulls mobs off of you, let him. Fighting for aggro is rarely good. You also don't have to tank everything -- there's nothing wrong with your OT taking his own target. If it annoys you so much, inform him; but really, it shouldn't.
Yeah, you're right. I realize that, so long as the casters aren't dying, my job is being performed and it's really no sweat at all. I think the fact that we're on a rotation is just making me feel like I have to prove myself, lest I use my spot, but you're right: don't sweat it.

Lastly, I have decided to drop Improved Revenge, because I feel like I'm geared up to a point where the stun isn't as helpful as it was when I had just broken 12k hp/armor.

I'm gonna try out Grom'tor's Charge tonight again (probably unenchanted for the time being) to see how it works.

Thanks again, everyone :)

Radhja
01-16-2008, 08:28 AM
Grom'tor's Charge served me well for a long time after I hit 70 (until I upgraded to The Sun Eater). It should serve you doubly well with your Expertise bonus.

Rage starvation is a very common problem for tanks who don't want to downgear themselves. However, there IS a solution - it's more of a side-downgrade, but try using 4/5 or 5/5 S1 Arena gear. You have a considerable amount of armor regardless, and your DPS will be boosted significantly. Your HP will drop a bit tho, so make sure you're not overestimating your survivability for the instance at hand. (Having 16k armor but only 12k health is a bit imbalanced)

Mix and match your gear - it's tedious work finding the right setup, but once you get the hang of it, you'll know what to wear at any given fight.