Razor

01-13-2008, 10:44 PM

I have yet to see a formula for effective health (or one for mitigation for that matter) that makes the least bit of sense to me. I've looked at Satrina and Cider Helm's guides and just wound up scratching my head a lot.

View Full Version : Effective Health equations frying my brain

Razor

01-13-2008, 10:44 PM

I have yet to see a formula for effective health (or one for mitigation for that matter) that makes the least bit of sense to me. I've looked at Satrina and Cider Helm's guides and just wound up scratching my head a lot.

jere

01-14-2008, 09:29 AM

Well the basic thing to know is the amount of damage a boss does to you is not the same amount that he tries to do to you.

Example: A boss tries to hit a warrior in battle stance for 10k damage, but the warrior has enough armor to reduce incoming attacks by 40%, so the boss only does 10k*0.6 = 6k.

Example 2: A boss tries to hit a warrior in defensive stance for 10k but the warrior has enough armor to reduce incoming attacks by 60% and def. stance reduces damage by 10%, so the boss only does: 10k*0.4*0.9 = 3600 damage.

In both examples, the boss tries to do 10k, but because of AC and your stance reduction, he ends up doing much less (the amount you see on your screen).

Effective health is kinda like reversing this thought process. You take the amount of damage you are interested in, divide by your reductions (inverse of multiply) and that tells you how much damage the boss tried to do. Since EH really worries about tank death, you use your HP pool as the amount of damage a boss does:

HP /(Armor_Reduction*Stance_Reduction) = EH

Note when I say Armor_Reduction, if you reduce damage by 60%, the Armor_Reduction value would be 40% (I know, it is a bit backwards, but I don't really know the correct term to name it).

So if you have 20000 HP, your armor reduces damage by 60%, and are in defensive stance, then your effective health is:

20000/(0.4*0.9) = 55556 Effective Health.

I.E. The boss must try to do 55556 damage to kill you, which is then reduced by armor and stance down to 20000.

Example: A boss tries to hit a warrior in battle stance for 10k damage, but the warrior has enough armor to reduce incoming attacks by 40%, so the boss only does 10k*0.6 = 6k.

Example 2: A boss tries to hit a warrior in defensive stance for 10k but the warrior has enough armor to reduce incoming attacks by 60% and def. stance reduces damage by 10%, so the boss only does: 10k*0.4*0.9 = 3600 damage.

In both examples, the boss tries to do 10k, but because of AC and your stance reduction, he ends up doing much less (the amount you see on your screen).

Effective health is kinda like reversing this thought process. You take the amount of damage you are interested in, divide by your reductions (inverse of multiply) and that tells you how much damage the boss tried to do. Since EH really worries about tank death, you use your HP pool as the amount of damage a boss does:

HP /(Armor_Reduction*Stance_Reduction) = EH

Note when I say Armor_Reduction, if you reduce damage by 60%, the Armor_Reduction value would be 40% (I know, it is a bit backwards, but I don't really know the correct term to name it).

So if you have 20000 HP, your armor reduces damage by 60%, and are in defensive stance, then your effective health is:

20000/(0.4*0.9) = 55556 Effective Health.

I.E. The boss must try to do 55556 damage to kill you, which is then reduced by armor and stance down to 20000.

Razor

01-14-2008, 07:35 PM

I'm pretty sure I understand how Effective Health works, it's just figuring out how much I have and how much I can have that I'm having trouble with.

HP /(Armor_Reduction*Stance_Reduction) = EH

Note when I say Armor_Reduction, if you reduce damage by 60%, the Armor_Reduction value would be 40% (I know, it is a bit backwards, but I don't really know the correct term to name it).

So if you have 20000 HP, your armor reduces damage by 60%, and are in defensive stance, then your effective health is:

20000/(0.4*0.9) = 55556 Effective Health.

I.E. The boss must try to do 55556 damage to kill you, which is then reduced by armor and stance down to 20000.So basically I divide my HP by my armor reduction multiplied by my stance reduction?

I have 12688 health and 13053 armor.

According to Blizzard's tooltips that means I have 55.28% damage reduction from armor and 10% damage reduction from Defensive Stance. I must have misinterperated the equation because I only wound up with 2295.22 Effective Health.

HP /(Armor_Reduction*Stance_Reduction) = EH

Note when I say Armor_Reduction, if you reduce damage by 60%, the Armor_Reduction value would be 40% (I know, it is a bit backwards, but I don't really know the correct term to name it).

So if you have 20000 HP, your armor reduces damage by 60%, and are in defensive stance, then your effective health is:

20000/(0.4*0.9) = 55556 Effective Health.

I.E. The boss must try to do 55556 damage to kill you, which is then reduced by armor and stance down to 20000.So basically I divide my HP by my armor reduction multiplied by my stance reduction?

I have 12688 health and 13053 armor.

According to Blizzard's tooltips that means I have 55.28% damage reduction from armor and 10% damage reduction from Defensive Stance. I must have misinterperated the equation because I only wound up with 2295.22 Effective Health.

jere

01-14-2008, 09:21 PM

I'm pretty sure I understand how Effective Health works, it's just figuring out how much I have and how much I can have that I'm having trouble with.

So basically I divide my HP by my armor reduction multiplied by my stance reduction?

I have 12688 health and 13053 armor.

According to Blizzard's tooltips that means I have 55.28% damage reduction from armor and 10% damage reduction from Defensive Stance. I must have misinterperated the equation because I only wound up with 2295.22 Effective Health.

13053 AC gives 52.18% reduction

Def. Stance gives 10%

So your effective health is:

12688/(0.4782*0.9) = 12688/(0.43048) = 29480.9

Notice that I use 1 - .5218 = .4782 and I use 1 - .1 = .9

EDIT: oh and while blizzard's tooltip says you have 55.28% reduction from armor, that is against a level 70 enemy. Against a boss,you would have 52.18% reduction, which the tooltip doesn't show.

So basically I divide my HP by my armor reduction multiplied by my stance reduction?

I have 12688 health and 13053 armor.

According to Blizzard's tooltips that means I have 55.28% damage reduction from armor and 10% damage reduction from Defensive Stance. I must have misinterperated the equation because I only wound up with 2295.22 Effective Health.

13053 AC gives 52.18% reduction

Def. Stance gives 10%

So your effective health is:

12688/(0.4782*0.9) = 12688/(0.43048) = 29480.9

Notice that I use 1 - .5218 = .4782 and I use 1 - .1 = .9

EDIT: oh and while blizzard's tooltip says you have 55.28% reduction from armor, that is against a level 70 enemy. Against a boss,you would have 52.18% reduction, which the tooltip doesn't show.

Razor

01-14-2008, 10:31 PM

13053 AC gives 52.18% reduction

Def. Stance gives 10%

So your effective health is:

12688/(0.4782*0.9) = 12688/(0.43048) = 29480.9

Notice that I use 1 - .5218 = .4782 and I use 1 - .1 = .9

EDIT: oh and while blizzard's tooltip says you have 55.28% reduction from armor, that is against a level 70 enemy. Against a boss,you would have 52.18% reduction, which the tooltip doesn't show.

So I divide my damage reduction from armor by 100 and repeat the step for my reduction from the stance I'm in (in order to convert the percentages to decimals).

Then I subtract both my damage reduction from armor and my damage reduction from stance from 1.

Then I divide my health by these numbers multiplied together? That's what I wanted to know.

Also, knowing that the tooltip only shows my mitigation against a lv 70 target, how do I figure out my mitigation against a lv 73 (boss)?

Def. Stance gives 10%

So your effective health is:

12688/(0.4782*0.9) = 12688/(0.43048) = 29480.9

Notice that I use 1 - .5218 = .4782 and I use 1 - .1 = .9

EDIT: oh and while blizzard's tooltip says you have 55.28% reduction from armor, that is against a level 70 enemy. Against a boss,you would have 52.18% reduction, which the tooltip doesn't show.

So I divide my damage reduction from armor by 100 and repeat the step for my reduction from the stance I'm in (in order to convert the percentages to decimals).

Then I subtract both my damage reduction from armor and my damage reduction from stance from 1.

Then I divide my health by these numbers multiplied together? That's what I wanted to know.

Also, knowing that the tooltip only shows my mitigation against a lv 70 target, how do I figure out my mitigation against a lv 73 (boss)?

Finelle

01-15-2008, 01:43 AM

The damage that you take from a boss is the damage *after* mitigation by your armor. Effective Health is the damage that you are able to take *before* mitigation. This is important because comparison of Effective Health is the easiest way to compare Time-To-Live between two tanking setups. There are of course other ways, but Effective Health uses a common denominator (Effective Health and Raw Damage) to expedite this comparison.

Using the HP/armor model of Effective Health (ignoring block), the following scenario just barely results in death:

Post Mitigation Damage = HP

Post Mitigation Damage is calculated by:

Post Mitigation Damage = Raw Damage X (1-Mitigation Percentage)

Substituting in HP for Post Mitigation Damage and playing around with the equation gives:

Raw Damage = HP / (1-Mitigation Percentage)

This is the amount of Raw Damage (ie. before mitigation) that will kill you, also your Effective Health considering only HP and armor. Warriors also have a multiplicative 10% damage mitigation from Defensive Stance and Paladins have 6%, therefore:

Post Mitigation Damage = Raw Damage X (1-Mitigation Percentage) X (1-0.1)

Raw Damage = HP / ((1-Mitigation Percentage)X0.9)------> Warrior

Raw Damage = HP / ((1-Mitigation Percentage)X0.94)-----> Paladin

Raw Damage = HP / (1-Mitigation Percentage)------------> Druid

Using the HP/armor model of Effective Health (ignoring block), the following scenario just barely results in death:

Post Mitigation Damage = HP

Post Mitigation Damage is calculated by:

Post Mitigation Damage = Raw Damage X (1-Mitigation Percentage)

Substituting in HP for Post Mitigation Damage and playing around with the equation gives:

Raw Damage = HP / (1-Mitigation Percentage)

This is the amount of Raw Damage (ie. before mitigation) that will kill you, also your Effective Health considering only HP and armor. Warriors also have a multiplicative 10% damage mitigation from Defensive Stance and Paladins have 6%, therefore:

Post Mitigation Damage = Raw Damage X (1-Mitigation Percentage) X (1-0.1)

Raw Damage = HP / ((1-Mitigation Percentage)X0.9)------> Warrior

Raw Damage = HP / ((1-Mitigation Percentage)X0.94)-----> Paladin

Raw Damage = HP / (1-Mitigation Percentage)------------> Druid

brain9h

01-15-2008, 06:18 AM

you don't need to know all the maths.

Gear up for Stamina and Armor, maintain critical strike immunity and GG.

Gear up for Stamina and Armor, maintain critical strike immunity and GG.

Ceravantes

01-15-2008, 06:23 AM

Tankpoints has an eh calc built in, and there is one on this site's main page as well.

jere

01-15-2008, 07:27 AM

So I divide my damage reduction from armor by 100 and repeat the step for my reduction from the stance I'm in (in order to convert the percentages to decimals).

Then I subtract both my damage reduction from armor and my damage reduction from stance from 1.

Then I divide my health by these numbers multiplied together? That's what I wanted to know.

Yep, exactly!

Just for clarity, the EH equation is:

Hit_Points/((1-DR_armor)*(1-DR_stance))

Just take a look at the values I used in my earlier example and try to see how I got them. Oh and definitely use decimals. You almost never use percentages as is in math, they are typically handled as decimals (0.5218 for 52.18% )

Also, knowing that the tooltip only shows my mitigation against a lv 70 target, how do I figure out my mitigation against a lv 73 (boss)?

To Figure out how much DR_armor you have against a 73, you use:

DR_armor = AC/(AC+11960)

Of course, DR_stance = 0.10 for warriors (0.06 for paladins)

Then I subtract both my damage reduction from armor and my damage reduction from stance from 1.

Then I divide my health by these numbers multiplied together? That's what I wanted to know.

Yep, exactly!

Just for clarity, the EH equation is:

Hit_Points/((1-DR_armor)*(1-DR_stance))

Just take a look at the values I used in my earlier example and try to see how I got them. Oh and definitely use decimals. You almost never use percentages as is in math, they are typically handled as decimals (0.5218 for 52.18% )

Also, knowing that the tooltip only shows my mitigation against a lv 70 target, how do I figure out my mitigation against a lv 73 (boss)?

To Figure out how much DR_armor you have against a 73, you use:

DR_armor = AC/(AC+11960)

Of course, DR_stance = 0.10 for warriors (0.06 for paladins)

Nicki

01-15-2008, 08:19 AM

grr at the difference between RF and def stance:

15k health 60% reduction

Warrior=41666 EH

Paladin=39893 EH

Diff = 1773

16k health and 64% reduction

Warrior= 49382.7

Paladin= 47281.3

Diff= 2101.4 EH

As gear level goes up EH gap goes up -.^ and people told me 4% was not a big deal how wrong they are. How wrong they are. Unless i did my math wrong..

15k health 60% reduction

Warrior=41666 EH

Paladin=39893 EH

Diff = 1773

16k health and 64% reduction

Warrior= 49382.7

Paladin= 47281.3

Diff= 2101.4 EH

As gear level goes up EH gap goes up -.^ and people told me 4% was not a big deal how wrong they are. How wrong they are. Unless i did my math wrong..

Finelle

01-16-2008, 09:11 PM

Hmm? I haven't done full calcs, but the higher stamina scaling for paladins should cancel the 4% difference out. Since the 4% is pre mitigation as your equations point out, it doesn't scale more than linearly. Raid buffed, it's trivial to surpass the stamina threshold at which paladin health exceeds warrior health at the same gear level.

Razor

01-19-2008, 01:23 AM

To Figure out how much DR_armor you have against a 73, you use:

DR_armor = AC/(AC+11960)

Of course, DR_stance = 0.10 for warriors (0.06 for paladins)

Armor divided by armor plus 11960 right? So if I had 13,000 armor I'd have 52.08% mitigation against a lv 73?

DR_armor = AC/(AC+11960)

Of course, DR_stance = 0.10 for warriors (0.06 for paladins)

Armor divided by armor plus 11960 right? So if I had 13,000 armor I'd have 52.08% mitigation against a lv 73?

jere

01-19-2008, 08:23 AM

Armor divided by armor plus 11960 right? So if I had 13,000 armor I'd have 52.08% mitigation against a lv 73?

Yep.

If you are interested in mobs less than 73, then you need to change that 11960 number. There is a formula for it on wowwiki to calculate what number needs to be there based on level.

Yep.

If you are interested in mobs less than 73, then you need to change that 11960 number. There is a formula for it on wowwiki to calculate what number needs to be there based on level.