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Marn
01-01-2008, 02:02 AM
I'd like to say in advance please forgive my stream-of-consciousness style but in any case I'm gonna write up a brief guide that should be sufficient to inform new tanks to these fights on how they should go about tanking them as well as things to look out for. These guides are not to be used as replacements for boss strategies as many encounters have so much going on that new tanks to them just do not need to know about. If you really want to go above the call of duty that's your perogative.

Disclaimer: written by a warrior, so forgive me if sometimes I reach for what my class would do in a given situation before a druid or paladin.


High Warlord Naj'entus
One of the few fights in BT that actually makes me nervous. He hits decently hard, with crushes as high as 8k. Positioning, I recommend you tank him so that he's just in front of the pillars, and your melee has enough room to be in line of sight of their healers. Periodically he goes into an immunity shield, and when one of your raid members breaks it everyone takes about 8k frost damage so, if you sense you'll be low going into the break feel free to pop a frost protection potion, although you could be equally served popping an ironskin every 2 minutes.
8 minute enrage timer...technically this is a race because he heals during his immunity shield but he hits hard enough that I don't recommend you deviate a whole lot from your bread & butter tanking set.


Supremus
Really not much to say about this guy...I recommend that you use 3 tanks who are all competing for aggro. The reason for this is, that he Hateful Strikes the target who is closest to him, with the highest HP, who is not his current threat target. Three tanks allows for your healers to get the offtanks up at a speed that will be more comfortable to most raiding guilds. He also shoots walls of fire onto the ground which you'll do well to avoid. He has a 2nd phase where he fixates on people, and during this phase just try not to die to the volcanoes he spawns...keeping sunders up is not really required so don't kill yourself over it. Also if he fixates on you do run away, don't tank him this phase. Phase 2 doesn't last longer than about a minute and change, afterwhich he does a complete aggro wipe and your tanks have to re-establish on him. Like I said, simple fight, long enrage timer, phases where your dps can go all out...boring with some of the best and worst loot in the instance. Have fun.
P.S. Occassionally he will charge someone right before he reverts from phase 2 back to phase 1, and sometimes he runs through volcanoes in his attempts to murder your raid members, so just watch for that, and remember this transition is where your hunters should be saving their Misdirects for.


Shade of Akama
This fight is a little odd, since you the tank are not tanking the boss but rather some incidental assistant mobs.
If you are tanking the 3 mobs that spawn from each side...I recommend you make two macros: /target Ashtongue Elementalist, and /target Ashtongue Spiritbinder. You should shield slam the one you intend to build aggro on 2nd, and taunt the one you intend to tank first (and get dps'ed down first). The reason for this is that they are about to run at epic mount speed away from you and you need them to focus on you NOW. The third, Ashtongue Rogue, should be sheeped and then tanked after the other 2 are dead. Ask your hunters/shamen to drop frost traps and earthbind totems because you will need these snares on them; there's almost no chance you can pick them up in time without these.
If you are tanking the single large mobs that spawn one at a time from either side...they're called Ashtongue Defenders and you just need to build enough threat to prevent healggro, cuz they won't be dps'ed down. They hit pretty hard so it's advisable for a druid to tank these, but a warrior in BT/Hyjal gear can do it too. Note to paladins: Consecration apparently does not generate threat on these guys, which is also why you can tank the 3 side mobs without these guys also attacking you.


Teron Gorefiend
This guy hits like a TRUCK, I've experienced crushes for 12k. Position him about on the stairs, because your entire raid is going to spread out behind him and you'll want hunters to be able to shoot him and coincidentally use misdirects on you as much as possible. Ironically, this fight is another example of an encounter that's simple for tanks but immensely complex for the rest of your raid. This is also another dps race because of those abilities he will use on your raid. You better hope your best mitigation gear is also good for building threat though because you really can't afford to switch on unorthodox TPS gear or overly avoidance-oriented gear.


Gurtogg Bloodboil
Possibly the first fight in this game where tanking isn't mindless. Three tanks, and you all have to try and keep your threat levels close to each other while also trying to keep the aggro ceiling high so your dps can keep strong. First thing you need to know about is, he applies an Acidic Wound debuff to the current main tank about every 2 seconds, which reduces armor by 500 per application and ticks for 250 damage per application, stacking up to 99 times. Cannot be removed by Blessing of Protection, nor Stoneform, but only reapplies on hit so you can dodge it, parry it etc. to prevent refreshment of its duration timer. This, and several more abilities he does, is why it is recommended you bring 3 tanks near eachother in threat: you need to stop TPS'ing around 7 applications and let one of the other tanks take him off you. If you let him stack it up past 12 it starts getting HEINOUS, and in all likelihood it's going to be a wipe and it'll be your fault for building too much threat that your offtanks couldn't get through. Blessing of Protection will force an aggro switch however, so use it if your current tank gets too many and healing through the dot and his melee gets to be too much. Gurtogg has some aditional abilities that take his focus off the current tank and onto whoever is 2nd on aggro. Disorient works a lot like scatter shot, and if the 2nd highest tank on threat doesn't pass you before this ends, he will come back on you. Knockback reduces your threat, hopefully by enough that another tank gets main aggro, but not so much that you won't be able to pull it back off later. Both these abilities can be avoided, so don't count on them to get your offtank into main aggro position. To further help offtanks, Gurtogg has an Arcing Smash attack (effectively a cleave) which will apply Acidic Wound debuff on anyone who gets hit by it, so eat 1-2 wounds and use that damage to help your TPS. Oh also occassionally he goes into Fel Rage mode and places an Insignificance debuff on you which causes all your attacks and abilities to do no threat, so feel free to dump lots of rage there on Devastate and Heroic Strikes here (you're probably getting a lot from Acidic Wound anyway). If whoever he is Fixated on dies, he will return to the highest person on his aggro list, and you should be ready to Last Stand/Shield Wall/Nightmare Seed/anything you can do to live through his assault on you til he goes back to normal.
The trick on this fight is learning how to share threat with 2 other tanks while also not dying to Acidic Wound.
Other notes: you can reset him by running to the long, narrow ramp/stairs where you fought the first Combatant pack if it gets really bad.
P.S. 2 tanks can be used but it's squirrely to control and makes it harder on healers while admittedly raising your threat ceiling.


Reliquary of Souls
Phase 1, Essence of Suffering - There is no real tank during this phase, you just sort of absorb damage when it's your turn, as determined by your raid leader. Try and keep Demoralizing Shout and Thunderclap up, because this phase is all about tanks soaking that damage. This phase he will not land crushing blows/critical strikes, but the next two phases he/it is capable of landing crushings and crits.
Phase 2, Essence of Desire - A warrior tank is required for this phase, because you have to spell reflect an ability the Essence of Desire uses called Deaden. This phase lasts 160 seconds and you have to tank all out while making sure to save 25 rage for the spell reflect when it's about to come up. The more Deadens you miss, the more likely that you'll exceed this timer. Also hope your rogues/interrupters don't let you get Spirit Shocked because you lose aggro during the disorient and people are likely to be killed, as well as your threat ceiling will suffer and you could get pulled off of later. You can ease up on Shield Blocks this phase if you're raged starved, as your healers are receiving a buff from the boss that increases their healing efficacy.
Misc. Tips: If you can spare a GCD and the rage, feel free to Shield Bash a Spirit Shock if you have a feeling that your interrupt team is gonna drop the ball, but remember this is not your primary responsibility. Also, Shield Slam dispels Runeshield, so you could attempt to hold the SS for the shield when you see it coming up but honestly you shouldn't obsess over it.
Phase 3, Essence of Anger - Face him away from the raid, first of all. Also consider turning spell graphics down alot. Anyway, he has an ability called Soul Scream, which does 2500-3500 base damage (before Defensive Stance/Improved Defensive Stance/other modifiers) and drains your rage or mana, dealing 100 damage for every rage point drained (I don't know how much mana he drains or whether he deals damage from it). Try not to sit at 100 rage for too long or you'll get destroyed by that combined with his melee attacks. You can spam Spell Reflect and burn an Intimidating Shout to help reduce your rage, for example. Some other tips: once he applies the Aura of Anger, Taunt him to get him to use his Seethe spell, which will increase the threat of all attacks used against him for 10 seconds. Important note: don't Taunt too early, or Seethe will not go off. This is also when you have the misdirects going up. I recommend you Shield Wall (if you have it) around 35%, and when it wears off pop Last Stand or eat a Nightmare Seed. Your dps should be able to kill him during that, afterall this phase only lasts around 100 seconds, afterwhich time your raid will probably start dying from incidental damage. Hopefully your group has a shaman in it, because you'll benefit from Bloodlust (which should be popped raidwide at around 85%).
Other notes: Soul Scream, after his initial cast of it, is on a 10 second cooldown thereafter. Additionally, remember he is tauntable, meaning if the tank dies, the boss can be immediately picked up by any offtank in the raid.


Mother Shahraz
This fight requires 3 "tanks," one tanking the boss and the other 2 absorbing damage from Saber Lash.
If you're a Saber Lash tank...wear shadow resist gear like the rest of the raid, and sit on top of the main tank because you're helping split the Saber Lash damage. That's all you really do...you can try and be 2nd on aggro but if the dps is doing their job you probably won't be, and even if you are, when the tank dies you aren't wearing your real tanking gear and you'll probably be so hard to heal that the raid should just run out and reset her.
If you're tanking Mother Shahraz...get ready for the most boring tanking job you've ever done. Odds are after a few minutes you'll be so far ahead of the dps that you can slack from time to time to lessen the number of parry-related retaliations she throws at you (yes, she does this too). The only time this fight gets "exciting" is when she Saber Lashes at the same time she hits you really hard, possibly at the same time a parry triggers a retaliate, AND she teleports Fatal Attraction targets ontop of you so you take extra shadow damage. This fight requires a lot of trust with your healers to know when you should Shield Wall or when they're going to pull through and save you. Other than that though it really is just a vanilla spank and tank.


Illidari Council
This fight requires 4 tanks (one for each councilperson). High Nethermancer Zerevor requires a mage tank (and he is tanked similar to the way mages tanked Krosh Firehand in Gruul's Lair, spellsteal and all); Veras Darkshadow I recommend not be tanked by a warrior but rather by either a druid or a paladin for reasons to be outlined later; Lady Malande can be tanked by any class but I recommend a warrior specifically, more on this later; Gathios the Shatterer is the final councilman and I strongly recommend your best geared warrior tank this guy. Now that they've all been introduced...
If you're the tank for Veras Darkshadow...then if you're the main feral druid or protadin for your guild, this guy is your job. After you pick him up, he will Vanish periodically (every minute for 30 seconds), afterwhich you need to pick him up again each time. Tank him as far to the left side of the room as possible, and remember he's going to reappear around where he vanishes but there's still a chance he will take off fast towards a healer or something. So, Moonfire, Feral Faerie Fire, Avenger Shield, Righteous Defense etc. depending on whether he may at the time be immune to physical or magical attacks (look for it). Also worth noting: he is stunnable! Go go Hammer of Justice, Bash, Concussive Blow etc.
If you're the tank for Lady Malande...then you have to watch for her reflective shield and try not to take too much damage from it. If you don't have a rogue to help kick then you're probably a warrior and you're going to have to shield bash the circle of healing she does when she's immune to magical damage (and magic-based interrupts). Wear enough hit and expertise to not miss this if you're the only melee interrupt on her.
If you're the tank for Gathios the Shatterer...that means you're the star of the show! :D This is the guy whose been casting Blessing of Magic Protection and Blessing of Protection on his cohorts, but he never casts it on himself. This also means this is the guy your raid dps'es so be on your game with the threat generation here. He's also gonna hit you pretty damn hard, so I recommend you wear your bread and butter tanking set. He also casts Consecration, which ticks for around 2k every 3 seconds and you need to move him out of it so your melee dps can safely tear him up. If Zerevor puts a Flamestrike or Blizzard on you, again, you'll have to move. I find I end up tanking him in a loose circle around from the trees near the boss platform, to the trees on the wall side of the ramp, to the benches as far as about the middle of that wall and then back again. Another thing you need to know is that he will judge Seal of Blood and Seal of Command on you; Command is reflectable but Blood is not. Try not to miss a reflect, because it hits hard if it lands, and it adds free threat if you manage to reflect it. Odds are good you will not be rage starved tanking this guy, especially after taking a seal of blood. Again, your healers communicating them having a problem is how you'll know when to shield wall, because there's only two ways you die here: healers having a problem and you screwing up (miss a command reflect, sit in a blizzard/flamestrike/consecration etc), sorry to say so. This fight may be one of the hardest to tank in the game, as easy as this fight as a whole may be, ironically.


Illidan Stormrage
Intimidating as this guy is at first, he's really far less epic than he should be (at least that's how I feel). I'm not gonna cover the warlock tanking because again, this site's for true tanks, and besideswhich it's pretty simplistic.
So, what do you do as a tank on this fight?
Phase 1: the main tank tanks Illidan in an arc from one pillar to the other, along the circular dias. Occassionally he will do a Flame Crash which creates a circle of blue flame at your feet; try and reposition Illidan so that the next Flame Crash is right next to the last one (it will give you more room to do this from one side of the room to the other although I usually get only as far as about 75% over to the other pillar). Another ability he does this phase is Shear, which reduces your health by 60%. Shield Block stops it (grats implementing a gimmick to ensure a warrior tanks this guy). Oh also he does Drain Soul which only hits players in front of him, so face him away from the raid or he could heal up a lot. If you're affected by parasites, have the melee back out. This phase ends at 65%.
Phase 2: two offtanks in full fire resist gear tank two fire elementals that spawn out of the two warglaives Illidan throws down. There have been numerous guides written on how to tank these, and threads on the Elitist Jerks forums. I have never tanked these guys but what I can say is DO RESEARCH, this is the hardest phase and tanking these guys is a ludicrously hard job. I really can't describe in a short snippet how to tank these guys but what you need to know is that you CANNOT pull them too far from their glaive or they'll enrage. Also you have to watch out for Illidan's eye beam which can 1 shot you and it comes tangentially to the inner dias in a straight line. If you can't avoid it, wall...but try and avoid it without enraging your flame or killing yourself in fire or whatever.
>The Elitist Jerks Forum thread about the Flames of Azzinoth: The Illidan Thread (was "Flames of Azzinoth Question") - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t15397-illidan_thread_flames_azzinoth_question/)
>Phase 2 Instructional Video by lilliilliilliill of Stack and Die: Illidan Phase 2 Tanking Instructional Video By lilliilliilliill (http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=47065)
Phase 3: see phase 1, same thing as before.
Phase 4: this is the warlock tank phase; try not to get killed by incidental damage, and remember to re-establish aggro quick when he reverts to humanoid form and phase 3 repeats.
Phase 5: starts at 30%. He immobilizes everyone and Maiev comes up and does a speech. Phase 3 starts again except with a small change; after a while he will perform an enrage which can only be countered by a trap Maiev sets somewhere in the room. A smart tank will use their judgement on what traps to pursue (some you can't reach easily) and which enrages to just Last Stand or Shield Wall (TELL YOUR HEALERS FIRST but you can live through this). If you do manage to put Illidan in a trap, try and keep building threat on him, but your dps is going to be blowing him up and odds are they'd pull off you if he didn't usually go from trapped to phase 4 (at which point it's the warlock's job to pick up aggro lol). He only enrages/can be trapped during humanoid form.
TRY TO AVOID TURNING ILLIDAN TOWARDS THE RAID AS YOU DRAG HIM TO A TRAP. He could use his Drain Soul while you're kiting him and drain a lot of life from your raid.
Overall, like I said, not a hard fight to tank, just don't get sheared. I recommend you don't shield block until your cast bar says he's about to shear, at which point you can set up a mental timer because he will shear every 10 seconds, which means you can shield block to eat the shear, then 5 seconds later shield block, and then 5 seconds later shield block in time to eat the shear. If you miss that intermediary shield block, just hold off using it until you can be sure that the next shear will be blocked. Unlike most fights, this fight requires you to use shield block smartly, and not just every time its convenient for you.

Ciderhelm
01-01-2008, 08:10 AM
Excellent guides, I will be featuring these on the frontpage soon

Klimpen
01-01-2008, 08:18 AM
A few issues.

You make a few comments like:


This fight requires 4 tanks (one for each councilperson), one of which is a mage, two have to be warriors, and the third can and probably should be a druid.

So, we -have- to have two Prot Warriors. Why? I don't see any ability which requires some warrior specific ability. Why cant Feral Druids or Prot Paladins tank it?

Until things like this are justified or changed, I cannot advise anyone to use this guide, as the quality isn't upto Theoryspot standards, in my opinion.

Note: Paladins -can- tank Illidan [and have], Shear is an ability which can be blocked via Holy Shield, as long as avoidance/block totals are high enough [Dodge+Parry+Block=102.4%, Shear cannot miss].

Also: Specifically for the elemental tanking in Illidan, you don't provide a guide to tanking them. A link to a guide should be provided, in my opinion.

Ciderhelm
01-01-2008, 08:27 AM
Excellent guide and excellent read.



I recommend you stand at the corner of an equilateral triangle the sides the length of the distance between the two pillars where the two elementals stand.

I've tanked the fight and I'm confused. :D

Worldie
01-01-2008, 11:02 AM
It's the regular tanking spot, nothing particular.

However, i don't like it. It's like another of those pre-tbc guides saying "uh lul pallys can't tank".
Also i would like to remind you how Paladins can be considered superior tanks for the following fights of Black Temple.
1) Supremus (ranged pickup after threat reset)
2) Illidari Council -> Rogue. Since we can taunt him if he goes spell immune, avenger shield him if he goes melee immune.
3) RoS p3 (and p1 by some degrees) are more effectively tanked by Paladins as well. The damage taken from Soul Scream is trivial compared to the potential damage burst on warrior in case of 2 unavoided hits, and threat generation scales way better than warrior/druid's one with the Aura.
4) Shade of Akama, capable of AoEtanking the groups of 3 adds without too much issue.
5) Bloodboil, a paladin in the tanking squad for him can provide a additional BoP for a tank that goes too much on with aggro, as well as bubble himself in case of getting too many debuffs.

And about Illidan, paladins can tank both the boss himself or the flames, according to how the guild prefer. By tanking the boss, you give up some mitigation and emergency buttons for snap threat after phase transitions and a more reliable way to avoid Shear. By tanking the flames, he can bubble out of the Dark Barrage in case he happens to get one, avoiding a very potential wipe.

Marn
01-02-2008, 03:12 AM
I guess, for council, I just feel like you're doing your raid a disservice by not spell reflecting Judgement of Command since it's reflectable. I cannot imagine having a druid on Gathios for example since being unable to reflect the Judgement creates more healing work for healers and introduces another form of burst damage that makes this fight even more stressful.

That, and the sheer amount of threat I get from reflecting the Judgements...it's unreal. I cannot be pulled off of after a few of these, because you're doing 6k, 7k and change hits to him, for free, once or twice a minute. Over a fight that lasts 10-15 minutes, that adds up pretty substantially and gives your aggro ceiling a little boost.

Malande, you can have a paladin or druid tank her, but your tank won't be able to interrupt a heal the way a warrior could. I feel like, it's a waste of a rogue's time to be relegated to sitting on Malande honestly, although if you guys want to go so far as to assign a mage, a shaman, a rogue and have a warrior on her too then that's fine, and I'd certainly hope that it's enough to counter her heals. :)

All that's really required is 2 interrupts on her, one magical interrupt for when she has blessing of protection up, and one physical for when she has blessing of magical immunity. I like freeing up more of my raid members to dps Gathios or do other tasks, but I'd just like to point out that these guides are not complete boss strategies nor are they meant to spark debate about boss strategies, I'm merely writing what new tanks to these fights need to know. Tanking Malande as a bear isn't going to be different from tanking it as a warrior...except you can't interrupt her heals.


In any case I don't really play with protadins enough I guess to always remember to point out every spot where you could use one. I like the idea of using one on Reliquary of Souls a lot though, that's pretty clever...although the change with regards to no longer getting mana back from overheals could make the manaburns fatal to one's threat generation after 2-3 Soul Screams.

There just aren't as many protadins running around main tanking BT/Hyjal as there are warriors and to a lesser extent druids, so I guess a lot of these fights I ended up writing them primarily from my perspective and, from the perspective of my raid when we have a fight with several tanks like Council. I also liked the Supremus tip with protadins but we don't use one in BT, and picking him back up isn't a big deal because the whole fight's a joke anyway. Your suggestion about Bloodboil's pretty good too, and does create a way for that one tank to clear the Acidic Wound and then quickly resume tanking.

Regarding Illidan, like you said, you give up emergency buttons and mitigation for snap threat after phase transitions. Does the player base put too much emphasis on emergency buttons? Probably...then again they're pretty amazing for 8 and 30 minute cooldowns. The snap threat isn't as big a deal in my opinion because you just tell people to cool their heels for like 4 seconds anyway. This fight just isn't a race for your average guild, at least after the revertion to the 25 minute berserk timer. Furthermore, and this is partially taken from my guild's strategy on Illidan but, we try and time when he goes into phase 5 so that we don't have parasites up and he isn't in demon form. These are things that aren't related to tanking him in the general sense of the encounter, so I don't bring it up or mention it because honestly I can't know how other guilds do the timing, even if I know most guilds think it's smart play to time it and thus are likely to, based on the dps from phase 3 @65% to phase 4 @33%, adjust the speed at which they dps so that they don't get caught in a bad situation like prison with parasites flying through the ranks unchecked.

Shear, as a warrior, is still pretty easy to avoid, albeit maybe not quite as easy as using Holy Shield. I've never experienced a flame tank getting barraged but, wouldn't the paladin's Divine Shield here make the flame lose aggro, which could cause a wipe? I mean it's something I've never investigated, nor been curious about. These kinds of things are why I didn't specifically recommend the use of a paladin tank for flames or Illidan although you can use them. I've seen a druid tank the flames before, which works fine but again, very similar approach to tanking as a warrior tank. And I'll go find that Elitist Jerks writeup because that thread is golden for any tank who wants to tank flames.



In any case thanks for the feedback, I wrote these guides in a way I felt most comfortable with, attempting to give tanks who are new to these fights a pretty general knowledge of what the bosses do with a candor I felt most would be able to get in touch with. Really good druids, paladins, and warriors will already have a pretty good sense of how to react and I trust will be able to use skills they--as druids and paladins--are more knowledgeable about than I.

I'm gonna edit in those points about Veras and Malande and add a link to the EJ forum thread about the flames. My only further advice regarding that is to read all of it, don't skim.

Marn
01-02-2008, 03:37 AM
Yo Ciderhelm, before you frontpage this could you take a look and tell me if you're satisfied with it?

And if anyone has any further suggestions feel free to bring them up.

P.S. Edited the Naj'entus guide for clarity about positioning, hehehehe. I can kind of see why that was confusing but it seemed fine when I was writing it. :p

Narshe
01-02-2008, 04:24 AM
About Illidan fight with Paladins:
Holy shield sits at 10 second cooldown, like shear which also have a cast time. It's pretty hard to miss a HS cast before shear lands.
About flames, they are tauntable so if DS make you lose aggro you can cast taunt macro to make it return again to you in less than a second. There is also macros that cast Divine Shield and remove it instantly so the flame should never stop targetting you but the Barrage will be stopped.


Another thing you could add for RoS fight. In order to burn rage, I spam spell reflect as that ability doesn't share global cd and make you lose 25 rage any time you want :P

Marn
01-02-2008, 04:30 AM
About Illidan fight with Paladins:
Holy shield sits at 10 second cooldown, like shear which also have a cast time. It's pretty hard to miss a HS cast before shear lands.
About flames, they are tauntable so if DS make you lose aggro you can cast taunt macro to make it return again to you in less than a second. There is also macros that cast Divine Shield and remove it instantly so the flame should never stop targetting you but the Barrage will be stopped.


Another thing you could add for RoS fight. In order to burn rage, I spam spell reflect as that ability doesn't share global cd and make you lose 25 rage any time you want :P
Yeah, I can't say how to work a Holy Shield in time with Shears because all I really know from experience is that there would be a good chance Illidan could eat up a lot of those charges if timed poorly, at least I would think so given how fast he swings. Should I feel weird trying to tell people how to play their classes given that if they're on Illidan they're probably relatively skilled? I mean, phase 2 is an encounter unto itself, but Illidan himself just feels less challenging than Gathios to me. :(

And I'll add that Spell Reflect thing on RoS p3.

Narshe
01-02-2008, 04:49 AM
You perform with HS like with shield block: Use it as soon as you see Shear casting. The only problem that could happen is that there is little room between your cooldown finishes and Illidan recast his Shear, so pray for no big latency in ur tankadin :D

Worldie
01-02-2008, 06:05 AM
About the Divine Shield, any decent tankadin has a macro to cast it and instantly dispel it. That deletes every debuff but does not cause any aggro loss :)

About Illidari Council i think you misunderstood me. I completely agree that for the paladin and priest the best tank is a warrior, however for the rogue the Paladin is far superior die to the ranged abilities to pick him and chance to use both physical and magical damage to aggro him.

Worldie
01-02-2008, 06:05 AM
double post ffs -.-

Marn
01-02-2008, 06:15 AM
Well, the rogue is equally well-tanked by a feral druid, with for example Feral Charge and a Maul queued up. We've killed council numerous times using a feral druid on Veras and he's never screwed up or anything. I don't know if using a paladin would be "easier" but it's not like ferals aren't viable.

Ciderhelm
01-04-2008, 01:13 PM
That is arguably the best ASCII creation I have ever seen on a forum. Ever.

veneretio
01-04-2008, 01:24 PM
That is arguably the best ASCII creation I have ever seen on a forum. Ever.
Am I suppose to like cross my eyes or something to see the picture?

Davenrothz
01-04-2008, 04:10 PM
I wouldn't have the guts to try it personally. If I got a taunt resist I'd never, ever live it down.

You could always cancel the Divine shield as soon as it resists and your threat goes right back to where it was pre-bubble.

Dots
01-05-2008, 10:48 AM
In your combat log it will list Soul Scream hitting you twice. The first is the base damage, the second the power-burns damage.

Example:


The power burns deals 10 damage before Defensive Stance (and Improved Defensive Stance) modifiers per 1 rage burned, and 0.5 damage before Righteous Fury (and Spell Warding and potentially Ardent Defender) modifiers per 1 mana burned.

The power burn deals 100 damage per rage, not 10.


I've heard it said that when one of the tanks avoids a Sabre Lash by Dodging or Parrying it, the damage isn't divided onto them and is instead redistributed in full between the other tanks, resulting in potentially one tank dying to an abnormally large Sabre Lash.

The damage is distributed before checking for parry/dodge/miss. If the tank is taking higher than normal Saber Lash damage, one of the offtanks is just not in the correct position.

Marn
01-06-2008, 06:30 AM
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/leapfrog88/Illidanp2A.jpg

I AM LOVIN THIS DIAGRAM lol :D :D :D

Edit: edited the first post with the Gurtogg, Shade of Akama and other miscellaneous tips.

Cairn
01-06-2008, 04:27 PM
Hey this diagramm remember my .gif for C'thun ^^

(Animated .gif)


Dots say the true Saber Lash depend of ur positionning, need to be in a 5m range on front ( 90° )

Tharr
01-06-2008, 05:29 PM
I've heard it said that when one of the tanks avoids a Sabre Lash by Dodging or Parrying it, the damage isn't divided onto them and is instead redistributed in full between the other tanks, resulting in potentially one tank dying to an abnormally large Sabre Lash.

Is false and have always been false, the reason why u didn't face Mother at the start was if u dodged/parried the saber lash u didn't get the immunity to the Fatal Atraction which could lead to 1 or worst case 2 of your soak tanks being teleported away and your tank getting insta gibbed by a saber lash. That have been fixed however so feel free to watch her now, don't ever ever attack her though!

Worldie
01-06-2008, 08:03 PM
Something tells me that our casters are going to whine about no JoW on the big moma, unless i can be arsed of pressing the seal and judgement buttons every 20 secs...

Gymble
01-08-2008, 07:50 AM
Some comments about Reliquary of Souls.

RoS p1 is know to have 0 armor so keeping 5 sunders does not provide any dps gain.
Dont forget to keep demoshout and thunderclap up on the boss in this phase too, it help a lot.

RoS does'nt crush or crit in p1 but do in p2 and p3.

Healing power in p2 is so high that taking crushing blow is negligible so dont spam shieldblock if rage starved.
In fact the boss is casting non stop, resulting sometimes in the tank taking one hit every 5 or 7 seconds. In this case taking a crushing blow is welcome threat wise.

Do not start p3 tanking with a full rage bar. It can result in an insane burst.


The only time this fight gets "exciting" is when she Saber Lashes at the same time she hits you really hard, possibly with a crushing blow or just a normal melee swing or maybe also a retaliate

Mother Shahraz does not crush.

PS: I hope my english was readable :(

Dots
01-08-2008, 07:51 PM
Do not start p3 tanking with a full rage bar. It can result in an insane burst.

No? P3 never starts with a power burn. You have plenty time to use all that rage for a decent head start.

Gymble
01-09-2008, 02:16 AM
We have it happen twice, both resulting in wipe.

We use the agro switch so: Initial agro on feral, I taunt/slam the boss with a full rage bar and begin to dump as fast as possible. Take a hit, take a scream, take a hit -> dead.

All in beetween 3 to 5 seconds after the beginning of p3.

Dots
01-09-2008, 08:50 AM
You don't need another tank for that. Any taunt effect will cause Seethe, no matter if you are already tanking or not. You can also target and attack the boss before he visually appears, giving you ample time to empty your rage bar before the first power burn.

byechee
01-09-2008, 01:59 PM
Some hopefully helpful things I’d like to add to this thread from my experiences, that I don't think were mentioned yet:

Supremus:
Phase 1: If you’re an OT eating Hatefuls, make sure you hit or otherwise debuff Supremus at the start, else he will not target you and cause many a melee to die. If you run with just one OT, don’t give the melee dps fort.
Phase 2: I usually follow Supremus around just enough to make sure sunders stay stacked on him. If he does charge someone far away from you right before the switch back to phase 1, try to intervene someone halfway (if they’re there) then intercept to him. This will likely burn all your rage, but if your range dps held off during the switch you should have no problem picking it up by yourself with a bloodrage -> shield slam+AA. Or, just run with 4 hunters like my guild (lol).

Akama:
Tanking the side adds: If you have to tank two adds, I think it’s better to tank the spiritbinder+rogue, and have the elementalist be sheeped, due to it having an AoE rain of fire. But overall this shouldn’t matter much as they don’t have very many hitpoints and should go down relatively easy. Mages nova-ing and hunters frost trapping the spawn points is extremely helpful for getting time to pick up adds, especially if a taunt resists or an attack misses.

RoS:
Phase 1: (Sorry for being long-winded in this section). Maximizing DPS is the best way to ensure a clean and quick phase 1. What worked for us was not to have random raid members take his fixate (which causes a lot of movement, shuffling, and possibly uncertainty), but to designate your two best geared tanks to each take a full non-enrage period, and your rogues to take a full enrage with evasion. Tanks should wear as much stam and non-defense based avoidance as possible, as his aura reduces your armor and defense (as well as his) to 0. Keeping demo shout, tclap, and shield block up is also very important, as is ensuring that melee attack from behind him if he turns or moves (parries can be brutal especially for the rogues). Warriors can also intervene the rogues during enrages to try to mitigate some of the damage they take. PW:S and Blessing of Sacrifice on whoever’s tanking pay huge dividends here (Grace of Air too if you can spare the shaman). Pop your Moroes trinket at the start too to maximize avoidance. The ultimate key here is to make sure the tanks and rogues move in and out at the right time for clean transitions. A rogue going too early or a tank taking over too late can quickly lead to easily avoidable deaths. Use BigWigs/DBM to time fixates, and calling changes out on vent always helps. We utilized this tactic on our very first kill so it’s certainly do-able given some early BT/Hyjal gear. Generally this method should yield only 2 enrage phases, with him dying during the 2nd one. If he doesn’t die by then, just have whatever melee with high health pick it up.
Phase 2: Shield slam will remove his Rune Shield, and this is useful if your raid goes OOM close to his death. While priests should each have one mana-free dispel ready to go here, it’s still something to keep in mind.
Phase 3: First of all, never ever start this phase with a full rage bar. No one should be attacking to start, and he'll hit you soon enough. After taunting (which I’m almost certain requires someone else to have aggro first for it to cause Seethe) and getting hunters to MD you (make sure your raid doesn’t dps here if you do choose to go the seethe route), he will do his first soul scream about 5-8 seconds into the fight, which then starts a consistent 10s CD on the ability. Using BW/DBM makes this damage much easier to avoid, and it will prevent you from unnecessarily burning rage and reducing your TPS. Before 2.3.2, you could burn your rage through clicking D-stance by dragging the stance spell onto your bars. While Blizzard intended to change this for 2.3.2, I read somewhere that it was now bugged so that making a /cast Defensive Stance macro (which worked before 2.3) will allow you to burn your rage as well (I’ll confirm this when I get home tonight). Otherwise, simply switch to battle then back again to ensure lowest rage possible during the ability. Assuming no aggro problems and good raid healing, it’ll be a kill.

Bloodboil:
While three tanks is nice to have here, we’ve found that the third tank will rarely get aggro, if at all, if the other two are on top of their game, doing everything that’s been mentioned so far (he doesn’t seem to use his disorient or knockback all that often). He’s there solely for “oh-shit” moments, such as disorient->knockback on the first two tanks (very rare). Keep demo-shout and tclap up during Fel Enrages, and if you are high health with few debuffs you can usually intervene his target and not die. Usually.

Shahraz:
I think someone already mentioned this briefly, but to cut down on parry-gibs, build as much aggro as you can to start, and by 40-50% you should have more than enough to cruise the rest of the way, just make sure to refresh sunders. Chains of melee-> lash-> melee could still occur however, along with the occasional shadow damage, so your healers need to be very alert regardless. Also, OT’s avoiding saber lashes absolutely will not cause other tanks to take more damage from them. If somehow one of the OTs dies, a hunter pet can take lashes in a pinch.

Council:
Lady Malande: I would really encourage having a second melee for interrupts on her, unless your tank can somehow wear enough hit+expertise to never miss or be parried/dodged.
Gathios: You can definitely see what he’s about to judge you with by looking at his buffs, so burn your rage on reflects appropriately. Also in my experience he’s always kept to a strict SoB->SoC rotation, never two of the same in a row. Gathios is rather enjoyable to tank until it enters into its 7-8th minute of unnecessary repetition on your 2nd or 3rd kill, and then the novelty quickly wears off.

Illidan:
MT: Don’t get sheared. Never face him towards the raid to take him to a trap. During phase 2 help keep tclap and sunders up on the elementals when you can, especially if you have a bear/pally tank. Bandaging people here is also fun and rewarding, and will make your raid think you’re pro. When he switches back from phase 4’s, make sure no one is dps-ing or has dots on him. And that’s it. You win. One of the easiest end-instance boss encounters. /pray for shield.

Dots
01-09-2008, 10:07 PM
Checked a few old logs, Essence of Anger's first power burn happens pretty much exactly 10 seconds after you can first hit it. Starting with a full rage bar is simply better because you might avoid the first hits and get rage starved very early, which is something you definitely don't want.
About Seethe, ask anyone who chains taunt effects during the last few % for safety. The whole raid will get Seethe even though the tank never loses agro to begin with.

byechee
01-10-2008, 10:47 AM
Flames of Azzinoth have 0 armor.
I'm unsure about the potential benefit of reducing a target's armor below zero.

orly? guess i'm wastin a lot of time for nothin then if this is true.

@Dots: as for RoS, i guess anecdotally it always seemed like shorter than 10 secs before his first. When learning the fight it always just seems safer to go in with less rage, because he certainly is capable of hitting you quite quickly and potentially causing a large first soul scream. If you can get 2-3 MD's during this seethe u shouldn't lose aggro afterwards anyway.

Also, I'm not sure how using seethe late into the fight would improve the aggro situation for a tank, as the raid will have a pretty significant damage bonus which will probably outweigh seethe's benefits for your own threat. I wasn't aware anyone actually chain taunted for safety, and I doubt I'll be doing so anytime soon.

Everything that I stated is what has worked for me and my guild. I'm sure everyone will find their own way in all this.

Tharr
01-10-2008, 03:49 PM
U don't use Seethe, u taunt, challenging shout, taunt, mockingblow, taunt to have it locked at u the last seconds of the fight when the raid is doing massive dmg.

byechee
01-10-2008, 04:17 PM
ah, fair enough, i see what you're saying.

ttocs
01-23-2008, 10:10 AM
Great guide... used it to help me learn the encounters in BT, for a guild I've just joined. First set foot in it last night, all one-shots except for RoS (but it mostly wasn't my fault!). Killed everyone up to (and including) BB.

I have to say though, RoS phase 3 is the most intense encounter I've done since I started tanking (yeah, yeah... I didn't play this game pre-BC), and fights like that are the reason why I want to be in a guild that progresses.

OK, I died at like 3%, but apparently that's commonplace. I had no idea how low his health was, since I was completely focused on my rage bar/action buttons the entire time.

RoS is definitely good times, though!

Worldie
01-23-2008, 10:59 AM
3% of RoS is like what.... 5-10 seconds? :)

Due to the stack of the damage increase of the aura, the last % tend to go down VERY fast... pretty much like the raid also...

Marn
01-23-2008, 11:22 AM
Thanks Ttocs, and if you can suggest anything to make the guide better I'd love to hear it.

nfw
02-08-2008, 03:45 PM
Flames of Azzinoth have 0 armor.
I'm unsure about the potential benefit of reducing a target's armor below zero.

Phase 2 just started, 129 damage with no sunders up:

01:59'30.284 Hausser's Thunder Clap hits Flame of Azzinoth for 129

With 5 sunders:

01:59'59.675 Hausser's Thunder Clap hits Flame of Azzinoth for 149

It actually seem to have quite a bit armor.

Worldie
02-08-2008, 04:05 PM
Since when Thunder Clap deals phisical damage?

That's Nature Damage and probably just influenced by debuffs on target (Misery etc) :)

nfw
02-08-2008, 04:30 PM
Since 1.8 I believe.

Worldie
02-08-2008, 04:45 PM
Hum i must have missed that. Interesting and good to know.

Aelvain
02-08-2008, 05:14 PM
I've never thought of Naj'entus as scary. O.o

During Fel Rage on Gurtogg keeping debuffs/shouts up while mostly auto-attacking to be at 100 rage when he transitions out should be your priorities. The idea of slowing down on your tps at 7 stacks is not something I would recommend. All transitions should take place via BOP or Eject, so tanks can be going all out the duration of the fight to keep the threat ceiling as high as possible.

It should be stressed that if there's one fight where avoidance shines, it's this one. More avoidance means debuffs stack more slowly and theoretically allows you to tank him longer, meaning more threat. He also has a fairly fast swing timer, so crushing blows can be an issue. If you are uncrushable, however, there's really nothing threatening about his damage at all. Rage potions are good if you're tank #2 or 3.

I also can't see how going into RoS p3 with a full rage bar is bad in any way. Starting with poor threat has the potential for causing more problems than that.

I guess I've never really done any kind of reliable quantitative measurement but the Flames definitely don't seem to have 0 armor. Considering my Shield Slam hits RoS p1 for ~1,000 while it hits Flame of Azzinoth for ~450 when I first grab him, I highly doubt it. And no, there's no way that 4 pc t6 to FR gear is going to result in Shield Slams hitting half as hard, I don't lose THAT much block value.

Aelvain
02-08-2008, 05:27 PM
Having a rogue kicking heals on Council is extremely wasteful. Mages can set up a macro to do a CS rotation, while the warrior can shield bash when Malande is spell immune.

Also, on Supremus having 3 tanks all competing for threat is dangerous. When he switches targets to Hateful Strike he will most likely stay on that tank if their threat is at >90% of the original MT's (see 110% melee threshold). If they just took a Hateful and now are at ~50%, there's a possibility the tank could be killed before healers realize that OT just became the MT. It's more sensible to just have the OT's get on his threat table initially to "prime" themselves for HS and to push threat, but never to actually compete with the MT for aggro.

Sirq
06-24-2008, 11:38 PM
Having a rogue kicking heals on Council is extremely wasteful. Mages can set up a macro to do a CS rotation, while the warrior can shield bash when Malande is spell immune.

Also, on Supremus having 3 tanks all competing for threat is dangerous. When he switches targets to Hateful Strike he will most likely stay on that tank if their threat is at >90% of the original MT's (see 110% melee threshold). If they just took a Hateful and now are at ~50%, there's a possibility the tank could be killed before healers realize that OT just became the MT. It's more sensible to just have the OT's get on his threat table initially to "prime" themselves for HS and to push threat, but never to actually compete with the MT for aggro.

having a rogue is more safe, as most of the warriors aren't hit capped/expertise capped(w/e that is).

Morgo
06-25-2008, 01:32 AM
stupid stuff, deleted. was still hammered as I wrote this

Sirq
07-01-2008, 01:05 AM
Fun about malande's spellrefelctive shield is that you can spellreflect it and it doesn't absorb it, it seems, so with some excessive rage, gogo spellreflect and protnuke that shield :P

Zacch
07-19-2008, 06:46 AM
My guild is about to begin trying out the council. As main tank im afraid of Seal of Comanding reflects... ive read some stuff about it, and in some places it says, Seal Of Comanding is up for 30s... how im gona know when he is going to juddge? Any tips?

Thanks

Satrina
07-19-2008, 07:17 AM
Watch for your target's casting bar to start moving with "Judgement" labelled on it.

Zacch
07-19-2008, 07:53 AM
Its a cast!??? oh god... i was guessing it was instant, the seal and the judge!!
^^
now its all good...

thankyou very much!

Cryof
08-25-2008, 06:23 AM
having a rogue is more safe, as most of the warriors aren't hit capped/expertise capped(w/e that is).I dont agree with this at all. I raid as BF arms but have a pretty good tanking set. When we do do BT and we get to council I just tank her as Arms in a mix of tanking/dps gear. Its really easy to still have good damage mitigation and reach the hit cap by switching outa few peaces, like using the neck off Supremus, Crossbow, and I even bust out the ring from Akama and with just those 3 dps peaces and the rest tanking gear Im easily at the hit cap. Just having a warrior shieldbash the healer also allows the rogue who would be "kicking" to just go and all out dps.

Sirq
09-14-2008, 01:37 AM
I dont agree with this at all. I raid as BF arms but have a pretty good tanking set. When we do do BT and we get to council I just tank her as Arms in a mix of tanking/dps gear. Its really easy to still have good damage mitigation and reach the hit cap by switching outa few peaces, like using the neck off Supremus, Crossbow, and I even bust out the ring from Akama and with just those 3 dps peaces and the rest tanking gear Im easily at the hit cap. Just having a warrior shieldbash the healer also allows the rogue who would be "kicking" to just go and all out dps.

Meh, I've always used a rogue on her. simply because I do not trust mages on that duty. And that's mostly the fault of our mages, not me.. I think. And the main reason to use a rogue, for me is, that they have 2 interupts. Kick and Deadly throw. and well, our rogues are quite nifty with the skill of interupting, I always take smites, and 1 rogue takes both Divine Wrath and the Heal. Because heck, it's easier to avoid a physical hit than a casted smite.
But I guess it's something you and your guild is used to.