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dsad
12-29-2007, 12:26 AM
It's been established that Armor is, essentially, not subject to Diminishing Returns. For those of you who want to argue this, please be referred to http://www.theoryspot.com/forums/evil-empire-guides/33102-diminishing-returns.html .

I like to think I have somewhat of a grasp on how this works out. You will gain the same benefit from gaining 500 armor at a 15k armor line as you would if you gained 500 armor at a 5k armor line.

However, there's been lots of claims being thrown around the boards that armor penetration acts under accelerated gains - essentially meaning that having 100 armor pen against a clothie is more powerful than 100 armor pen against a plate-wearer.

How does that make sense? Does armor pen operate under accelerated gains? And if so, how is this separate from the Time-to-live aspect of armor?

I'm sure I can't be the only one who's wondered at this.

Eroth
12-29-2007, 02:15 AM
WoW Forums -> Warrior Discussion (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=10022&sid=1)
WoW Forums -> Armor, DR, and Armor Pen (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=3686811487&sid=1)


I answered in there, but I might be wrong in my thinking. =/ It'd be nice if someone could point me in the right direction if I'm wrong.

Taelas
12-29-2007, 03:53 AM
You're looking at two different "systems".

Armor has diminishing returns on its damage reduction, but not on the time-to-live. It is the same thing with Armor Penetration -- the time-to-live gets reduced the same, but the DPS increases. The difference is, as a tank, you're interested in the time-to-live. As DPS, you're interested in the increase in your DPS.

The time-to-live really doesn't apply to bosses, as they have many different sources of incoming damage. Therefore the only interesting aspect is the actual DPS increase.

dsad
12-29-2007, 12:43 PM
The time-to-live really doesn't apply to bosses, as they have many different sources of incoming damage.

How can you separate Time to live and DPS. They're intrinsically related. And how do other sources of damage effect an individual's DPS or rate-of-killing.

edit: To show my confusion, if you're killing something 1 second faster with 100 armor pen, regardless of the armor level of the target, how can you argue that you get more of a benefit from lower level armor targets. One second is one second is one second.

Taelas
12-29-2007, 02:39 PM
Understand that I'm talking from the point of having more or less armor penetration on the same boss, not on two different bosses.

Assuming that every other factor remains the same, yes, the time-to-live reduction will be the same for every 100 armor penetration you achieve. But you can't count on the other factors remaining the same, thus the reduction in time-to-live is extremely difficult to factor in. The DPS increase, however, isn't.

Melange
12-29-2007, 10:32 PM
I have never understood this idea either. I'm going to do some quick and likely wrong maths, to show what I'm saying.

Suppose you have two mobs. One has 20% reduction from armor. The other has 36% reduction from armor. Suppose you get rid of exactly as much armor as the first one has with your pen+buffs. That same pen would put the second mob down to 20% reduction.

Now suppose you do 1000 DPS to mob #1. That would be a 200 DPS increase from the armor pen. A percent increase of 25%.
You would do 800 DPS to mob #2. That would be a 160 DPS increase from the armor pen. Also a percent increase of 25%

While you get a larger DPS increase from the armor pen on the low armor mob, you are getting the same percentage increase.

Every single other stat you can get is also affected by armor in the same way armor pen is. If I were to take away that 25% increase in damage from armor pen, and add 25% more damage from AP, it would take equal amounts of AP to increase damage against both mobs by 25%.

I do not see why people say that armor pen gets worse against high armor targets, when it seems to me that it stays the same relative to other stats, and there is really nothing else to compare it to.

Uruz
12-30-2007, 01:05 AM
Here is a link to a speadsheet that lists DPS increase by percentage on different levels of armor, hope it helps!

Google Docs - Armor Penetration Analysis (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-p2GoLIggc7xJFZegWVhDA)

Taelas
12-30-2007, 08:39 AM
I have never understood this idea either. I'm going to do some quick and likely wrong maths, to show what I'm saying.

Suppose you have two mobs. One has 20% reduction from armor. The other has 36% reduction from armor. Suppose you get rid of exactly as much armor as the first one has with your pen+buffs. That same pen would put the second mob down to 20% reduction.

Your numbers are off.

#1, 20% reduction, is 2634 armor. #2, 36% reduction, is 5939 armor. Reducing #1 to 0% would require 2634 armor penetration. 2634 armor penetration wouldn't reduce #2 to 20%; it'd reduce it to 23.84% (3305 armor).

Thus the DPS increase for #2 wouldn't be 25%, but 19%.

Melange
12-30-2007, 12:26 PM
Okay, I did a table myself, (this time with correct maths) putting time-to-live next to the benefit of armor pen, and I see where I was confused.

Please tell me if this is now the correct thinking:

Basically if you have the armor pen to kill a clothy one second faster, that armor pen will also let you kill a warrior one second faster. Since time to live scales linearly with armor. Never mind that you take 10 seconds to kill the clothy and 30 seconds to kill the warrior. One second is knocked off of both. So it now takes you 9 seconds to kill the clothy and 29 to kill the warrior.

Taelas
12-30-2007, 01:41 PM
I'm not sure that's correct.

This is what I'm talking about.

Quick math:

7700 armor: 42.175% DR
7600 armor: 41.856% DR
7500 armor: 41.534% DR

Assuming 100,000 health and 1000 DPS at 7700 armor:

DPS at 0% armor: 1729.353

Time-to-live at 7700 armor: 100 seconds (1000 DPS, 0% DPS increase)
Time-to-live at 7600 armor: 99.452274 seconds (1005.507 DPS, .0055% increase)
Time-to-live at 7500 armor: 98.904548 (1011.076 DPS, .0055% increase)

In both cases, 100 armor penetration reduces the time-to-live with exactly 0.547726 seconds.

Satrina
12-30-2007, 08:08 PM
Basically if you have the armor pen to kill a clothy one second faster, that armor pen will also let you kill a warrior one second faster. Since time to live scales linearly with armor.

The problem that everyone has with this math for PVP is that the calculation is codependent on armour and health, but they do a simple comparison saying "plate with 15000 health and 15000 armour" and "cloth with 15000 health and 2000 armour". In this comparison, yes, the reduction in time to live is indeed the same. However, a comparison between a 15k health plate and a 15k health cloth is not realistic or useful.

You have 1000 penetration and 1000DPS.

This armour penetration reduces a plate wearer with 15k health and 15k (58.7%) armour to 14k (57.0%), decreasing their time to live from 36.3 seconds to 34.9 seconds, a total of 1.4 seconds. 1000 penetration reduced time to live by 3.8%

This armour penetration reduces a cloth wearer with 10k health and 2.5k (19.1%) armour to 1.5k (12.4%) armour, decreasing their time to live from 12.4 to 11.4 seconds, a total of 1.0 second. 1000 penetration reduced time to live by 8.1%.

Take from that what you will

(Edit: Norrath - By the same token, you aren't talking about the same scenario at all that the OP brings up. You're talking about the PVE case where everyone's target is the same and so the only difference that matters is the increase in DPS granted by penetration and there's no relative comparisons to make.)

Taelas
12-31-2007, 01:55 AM
True, I hadn't considered that.

dsad
12-31-2007, 02:34 PM
This armour penetration reduces a plate wearer with 15k health and 15k (58.7%) armour to 14k (57.0%), decreasing their time to live from 36.3 seconds to 34.9 seconds, a total of 1.4 seconds. 1000 penetration reduced time to live by 3.8%

This armour penetration reduces a cloth wearer with 10k health and 2.5k (19.1%) armour to 1.5k (12.4%) armour, decreasing their time to live from 12.4 to 11.4 seconds, a total of 1.0 second. 1000 penetration reduced time to live by 8.1%.

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for, thank you.