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Goreaxe
12-21-2007, 05:28 PM
Just a quick question here... On bosses that do not crush such as Archimonde, and Mother, is it even neccessary to use shield block at all? Is there any advantage to using shield block, or is it just a waste of rage?

Andenthal
12-21-2007, 06:07 PM
Depending on how high your avoidance is, you may be missing some Revenge opportunities, which depending on your threat output, may not be such a big deal. Other than that, I'm not sure you are really missing much.

Dots
12-21-2007, 08:09 PM
While you have sufficient rage, there is no reason not to use Shield Block, lowering the hits you take by your block value.

Baceramus
12-22-2007, 09:51 AM
Dots has it right, just keep SB up unless you are having threat issues and really need that rage. Your healers will thank you for not having to kill their mana pools by you letting hits slip in unchallenged even if they aren't crushing.

Rak
12-23-2007, 03:49 PM
It's a huge amount of mitigation. TankPoints will tell you how much exactly. It's usually a lot more damage reduction over a fight than people think.

Worldie
12-23-2007, 04:03 PM
As many people say, every little thing helps. The amount blocked might seemb small but it's not over a long fight.

Also you might lose some Revenge chances as well.


As long as you have the rage, you should still keep SB up, unless you are passively uncrushable :)

Timetheos
12-23-2007, 06:46 PM
If the mob hits sufficiently hard that blocking doesn't provide hugely useful mitigation, Shield Block is unnecessary. I almost neglected a shield altogether on Nalorakk before I remembered all the armor I'd lose :P

Baceramus
12-23-2007, 07:25 PM
The thing about it Timetheos is for some people they need that extra 400-600 damage shrugged off from a 4k hit. Seems small but when 4 of them come at you without a heal you notice the amount blocked compared to the amount that you are left with and thank god you bothered to keep shield block up. Even without crushing blows you'd marvel at how much it helps your healers during a silence or what have you.

Nicki
12-23-2007, 07:39 PM
If the mob hits sufficiently hard that blocking doesn't provide hugely useful mitigation, Shield Block is unnecessary. I almost neglected a shield altogether on Nalorakk before I remembered all the armor I'd lose :P

except that its 400 health that i got for free O-o?

Nalorakk hits you for 3000(400 blocked)
Nalorakk hits you for 3000(400 blocked)
Nalorakk hits you for 3000(400 blocked)

vs

Nalorakk hits you for 3400
Nalorakk hits you for 3400
Nalorakk hits you for 3400

9000 vs 10200
=11%

Double the hits:

6000 (400 blocked)x3
6400 x3

18000vs 19200

=6% less damage taken

Timetheos
12-23-2007, 09:57 PM
I'd say that 3000 (400 blocked) falls under the category of useful mitigation.

Edit:
In response to Baceramus,
-600 BV is still beyond my current gear. I can get it as high as ~470, but usually it's around 300 (my badge wish list is still quite extensive)
-Nalorakk is probably not an optimal example of this idea. The sizes of his hits are comparable to Prince, who, even if he didn't crush, would be worth maintaining Shield Block on due to his fast and relatively small hits. For something that hits much harder but doesn't crush, like a later boss or some single-pull trash, the benefit of blocking is not as great.

Also, this isn't to say that blocking is useless, but just that maintaining Shield Block in order to keep crushings off the table is not a concern in these cases. Personally, I see tremendous benefit in saving 10 rage every few seconds, as would most avoidance tanks, especially concerning fights on which threat must be maintained without the mob's full attention.

Honestly, I can count the situations where I neglect Shield Block on one hand, and at the moment none of those are bosses.

Link
12-24-2007, 07:02 AM
You picked the wrong Tier4 gloves... a green bow of stamina is better than what you have on... and green shoulders with nothing but defense? Good lord..

Anyways... I tank archimonde for my guild. In my max mitigation gear my shield block is only 375 and he hits me for anywhere from 8000 to 9500 and I keep shield block up constantly. Just because he doesn't crush is no excuse not to take 4% of the damage off each hit.

Dreadski
12-24-2007, 08:31 AM
13% Dodge. I'll take the shield. Coming up with 10 rage is not an issue.

Nilya
12-25-2007, 03:38 AM
It's extra mitigation. It's never worthless unless you are severely starved for rage and can't keep the semblance of your normal rotation.

Timetheos
12-27-2007, 02:57 PM
It's extra mitigation
That's the discussion at hand; sometimes it doesn't provide particularly effective mitigation, sometimes it isn't effective at all (but it usually makes some kind of difference in raid situations).

Edit: I'll provide a bit more clarification.

-There are people who have a passively-uncrushable set. Tanking in this set would never require the use of Shield Block.
-Against a sufficiently-low lvled mob, every tank is passively un-hittable (which is kind of what an un-crushable set is anyway). For mobs that lvl and below, SB is useless.
-Mobs which hit very hard but don't crush; Arcane Protectors (I think that's what they're called) before and after Curator in Kara are a good early example. Some world elites might fall into this category. On these encounters blocking provides some mitigation, but it's arguable whether it's worth spending 10 rage on it.
-Non-heroic 5-man trash pulls: maintaining SB on these fights would probably make you nearly invincible, but at the price of not being able to build threat at all.
-Etc.

Taelas
12-27-2007, 03:55 PM
That's the discussion at hand; sometimes it doesn't provide particularly effective mitigation, sometimes it isn't effective at all (but it usually makes some kind of difference in raid situations).

It's the exact same pure physical mitigation versus any boss. It may not be as large a percentage, but don't dismiss block because of that.

Standard attack speed for bosses is roughly once every 2.5 seconds. Assuming you have 500 block value, which is decent but not excessive, you're mitigating 200 damage every second you do not outright avoid the attack. Depending on the length of the fight, that can turn into quite a bit of damage. For instance, if you do not dodge or parry a single attack during a boss fight that lasts 2 minutes, where Shield Block does not fall off once, you'll have mitigated 200/second for 120 seconds -- that's 24,000 damage.

Faster attack speed, such as from Prince, turns it into even more -- though the likelyhood of Shield Block falling off is also that much greater. Slow attack speed is better in the end.

No one's saying it's on the same level as avoidance or armor, but with sufficient block rating (or with a slow enough attack speed that Shield Block will not fall off), it is significant physical mitigation.

Otapi
12-31-2007, 04:06 AM
Just a quick question here... On bosses that do not crush such as Archimonde, and Mother, is it even neccessary to use shield block at all? Is there any advantage to using shield block, or is it just a waste of rage?

Just to re-itterate some of what's been said before, but from a different angle.

Both fights that you mention are simillar in that most dps and healing raid members are likely to be spending 'time away' from their role, be it avoiding doomfires (raid dps is usually bobbins on Archimonde at the best of times in my experience) or running back from ports. So firstly, you're unlikely to have threat issues for either fight and secondly, from a healer perspective - in the event of unlucky doomfire lockouts or 3 healer ports, we absolutely love it when you keep SB up.