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View Full Version : Passive uncrush for Prince worth stat loss?



Horgar
12-17-2007, 09:55 PM
Prince is one of those few fights where it's very tempting to aim for a passive uncrush set...

I finally got one completed but it costs me 1400 armor and 2k hps. He'll probably hit normally for +200 dmg a pop for that much less armor. But according to the attack table when shield block is not up if he hits me it's a gauranteed crush.

EH gear I got unbuffed: 13.4k hps, 15.6k armor, 6.16% miss from defense, 18.99 parry, 17.6 dodge, 19.96 shield block = 62.71% avoidance + 24% base miss chance = 86.71%
102.4 - 86.71 = 15.69 % left on the table. So any hit that actually lands once shield block charges are out looks like it's almost guaranteed to be a crush?

Passive uncrush to dual wielder gear: 11.3k hps, 14.1k armor. Total avoidance is almost exactly the same (like .07% more) the rest of it comes in the form of block chance.

1 question: Is he dual wielding the whole fight or only in P2?

Thrash seems to be a main hand double attack. So if he thrashes he can easily hit 3xmain hand, and 1x off hand. A bad timing and the off hand eats a shield block and you get hit for ~2k, 3.3k, 5k(crush), 5k(crush). That'd kill me unbuffed. With full buffs I'd just survive it maybe (if my shout was up). Throw in a parry, though, and I'm dead.

Vs. that scenerio with passive uncrush he'd get 2.1k, 3.5k, 3.5k, 3.5k. The difference is more than 2k hps worth but maybe I'm missing something. Every time he thrashed I'd be near dead if I didn't avoid one either way. With EH I would have a much larger cushion assuming he did not crush.... but it looks like any time he lands a hit outside shield block it's gona be a crush. Maybe my EH is just too low for prince... I have had horrible luck with drops. I gave up on curator legs and finally got the badge ones.

Any good minimums for armor/hp assuming 0 crushing blows on prince?

Narshe
12-18-2007, 02:47 AM
He does dual wield just phase 2. I wouldn't recomend that much loss on stats for passive uncrushability. It sound nice but remember you are also taking novas, moments where healing is short (healers moving from an incoming infernal) and such.
About his attacks, I can't remember his weapon speed but iirc he strikes with both his weapons at the same speed.
I managed Price with my paladin with 15k buffed HP, no passive crush inmunity but Holy shield is cheatorz.

Kream
12-18-2007, 10:31 AM
I went with the passive uncrushable set for Prince. I was about where you are at stat wise I went in with around 11.5k hps, and we downed him with few tanking problems (took us a bit to get past infernals, people dying from enfeeble, etc). I'd suggest trying both sets and putting it to a healer vote. The uncrushable set will even out the phases, in fact I think I take less damage in Phase 2.

Horgar
12-18-2007, 11:57 AM
When we have our prot paladin he tanks. He has better stats without crush being an issue *and* I can intervene during P2 to help out even more.

I only tanked him once and the healers had to move from a bad infernal right when he thrashed in p2 and I had used shield wall earlier otherwise I think I might have been OK. We had another war with similar stats do it and he got 4 sunders and died.

I think if I can get to 15k buffed hp with passive uncrush it would be ideal.

klor
12-18-2007, 12:11 PM
Prince is perfectly tankable without passive uncrush... I think the problem is that many many warriors are afraid to do things with the chance of a crush... thats part of our setup. I doubt i'll push passive uncrush until tier6...its just not worth it imo.

Horgar
12-18-2007, 02:30 PM
I think the problem is that many many warriors are afraid to do things with the chance of a crush...

It's not a matter of being afraid. I tried it and I died. I've only gotten to try it once and since we have a well geared prot paladin signing up every time to tank it there's not really any pressing need for me to ever tank prince.

Bonerot
12-18-2007, 02:54 PM
Prince hits like a noodle with some well geared kara tanks & healers. By the time you get to passive uncrush it's not worth gearing specifically for that fight.

I sat though most of phase 2 with a lot of my dps unable to contribute due to infernal placement so I just sat there and let the healers take me home. They were at 90% mana by the time we had him to 45%. Lots of armor, lots of health, well geared healers. Prince takes care of himself. Our guild is just kara & badge geared, nothing amazing and he's a joke. The infernals are still annoying but thats not caused by our gear :)

Georgiee
12-19-2007, 03:23 AM
Psh. For prince just spec into imp thunderclap (And make sure TC is kept on him the whole fight) and just make sure you keep shield block up. I've done the fight with no more than 1/2 crushings taken before. If your EH geared your healers should have no problem healing through one or two crushings blows in all honesty...

tarmc0
12-28-2007, 03:25 AM
For prince just spec into imp thunderclap (And make sure TC is kept on him the whole fight) and just make sure you keep shield block up. I've done the fight with no more than 1/2 crushings taken before. If your EH geared your healers should have no problem healing through one or two crushings blows in all honesty...

Agreed. Just keep shield block and imp.thunderclap up at all times and you will be fine mate. I don't even need to use last stand or shield wall through the second phase as long as I keep thunderclap and shield block. Only thing that is a problem with this fight for me now is the infernals. Sometimes it's just your luck with these on where they land!

Arlana
12-28-2007, 06:41 AM
In my experience, prince is a pushover.
i got semi decent gear(ie a few epics from kara), gemmed them to get my 490 defense, then i stacked stam. I had 12.3k hp unbuffed, 493 def, and my dodge/parry/block was all sitting at 16-17% each one. I was spec'd the casual 8/5/48. This was my first week MT kara and we 1 shot every boss except for nightbane which took 3 attempts thanks to accidents caused by others in teh group. Make sure you have your imp Tclap up at all times on bosses, demo shout them, and keep shieldblock all teh time. That week on prince i only got crushed twice AND i had to pull him by an infernal.
So either your not keeping your debuffs and shield block up, or you got healer problems.

Worldie
12-28-2007, 06:58 AM
Going as passively uncrushable on Prince is definitively a overkill and something not needed.

Each of the 3 tanking class has its own way to deal with Prince, Paladins just don't get crushed, Druids have the armor and HP to survive them, Warriors have more HP and possibly more avoidance at T4 level of gear than Paladins and should be able to survive the occasional Crushing from the boss :)

Redlen
12-28-2007, 08:24 AM
I really see no need for a passive uncrush set for prince I started tanking him when my guild started kara and still tank him on off nights for badge runs and alt gear if you are haveinga healer issue which is sounds like you are try to get the gnomergan auto blocker and mores pocket watch pop the watch when you start the fight then the auto blocker when you have enough rage to fallow with sheild slam when you hit phase 2 pop your shield wall and keep trinkets on rotation through the entire fight keep imp thunder clap up along with demor and commanding shout this should pull you through it even with bad healers. Lastly don't forget if anyone passes you on threat meter you will get enfeebaled and no lvl of healing is going to keep you up.

gilthanus
01-28-2008, 06:41 AM
Prince is such a cakewalk fight that you have no need for any special gear. I tank him in my normal tanking gear that I tank all the other kara bosses in. Of course I never even look at my health, ever. I love the healers behind me, and I should since the main healer on me is my wife, who's a holy pally. :D I've tanked everything in kara, with no problems, and got my 1st prince kill last night, on my first try with a new guild, and only my 2nd time to him.

Prince also has about a 50/50 luck chance involved with those dammed infernals. My 1st time to him, we got unlucky infernal drops 5 times in a row and the healer/caster group just couldnt get moved. Last night, I had to move prince once, and the caster/healer group moved twice. 6 1/2 min fight and collect yer loot. I died with him at 1% becuase of an unlucky 2 parries in a row, but our feral druid picked him up and finished him off with only 5 people left.

Roana
01-28-2008, 06:53 AM
First of all, if you have a reliable hunter in the raid, Scorpid Sting adds 5% to the misses.

Second, it's not worthwhile dropping to that low health; you can eat significant burst damage even without crushing blows.

The danger of crushing blows is also somewhat overrated. Crushing blows have 50% more damage -- nasty, but just another half-hit. As long as you don't take chain-crushing blows, it shouldn't be too big of an issue. Chain crushing blows are most likely to occur during thrash procs, and even then they have to hit and be crushing (15% chance each). That's not THAT frequent, especially with high dodge/parry/miss avoidance.

The big advantage of being passively uncrushable is that you don't have to worry about shield block while moving him due to infernals.

One other downside of being passively uncrushable is that your avoidance is low (too much block rating), making it more likely that you'll eat sunders.

And all that being said, with a hunter, I'm sitting at 13.5k unbuffed health, 16k unbuffed armor, 47% dodge/parry/miss avoidance in phase 1 and 3, and 426 block value myself. Obviously, I'll go with that gear for phase 2. But that took a bit of time too collect.

Dany
01-28-2008, 07:39 AM
The first times I tanked the prince, double crushs happened so much ... incredible.

I don't know, maybe at your level of gear, you'll have to cross your fingers like I did and spam shield block. But I feel that 19% block is a bit low. I mean, even with my actual normal tanking-aggro stuff (SSC-Badge-TK), I'm passively uncrushable in P2. Shouldn't cost 2k hp.
If you really want to try a passive immunity in P2, remember to focus en block rating. But I think like the others that it's not really a good idea until it's farmed at least.

Anyway, it's a reactivity fight and the last boss of the instance, don't expect to make it easy with blue stuff ^^. It will become easier and easier with your gear progression.

Farothin
02-08-2008, 09:55 AM
+ 24% base miss chance

I've seen this said in a couple places with regards to a DW passive uncrushable set. Wouldn't the game only apply the extra chance to miss to the off hand swings and use the standard 5% base chance to miss for the MH swings?

Dunmail
02-28-2008, 02:15 AM
I must be doing something wrong with him, as he's the only boss in KZ I've not managed to do, with attempting him on 2 runs as MT with half a dozen goes at him, last few with what I thought was alot better gear.
First run seemed to have EH & infernals issues.

Second run seemed to be phase 2 where SB was being eaten and it seemed an eternity before I could fire it again, apart from once when I was slightly skewed to wall and went for a flying 'object' lesson.

SW and Gnomergen trinket seemed to just delay it. Two excuses I can feebly offer was better dps, so I was having to work on threat output and it was a bit laggy (SW & LS both failed to fire on one attempt) I was noticing the GCD actually effect what I was doing.

I was trying to ensure TC, & shout were always applied, but it did seem that SB was being eaten fast, and I'd have 3 secs of CB's that were dropping me to half health, even with heals landing, and another sec of frantic hammering on SB to repeat the cycle. Looking at my gear it seemed viable, the safe spot seemed to be working, I'm just a bit puzzled with why it went tits up again, (asides from the one with my crap positioning), and why I was soaking up so many CB's.

Any helpful comments would be appreciated, did get him to 30-40% but kinda grudge time now, as rest of the place is perfectly doable.

Armoury is here
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowsong&n=Dunmail

Gnomergen trinket/Blue tanky cape usually worn and adding on shadamar's ring didn't seem to help.

Dunmail
02-28-2008, 02:16 AM
I must be doing something wrong with him, as he's the only boss in KZ I've not managed to do, with attempting him on 2 runs as MT with half a dozen goes at him, last few with what I thought was alot better gear.
First run seemed to have EH & infernals issues.

Second run seemed to be phase 2 where SB was being eaten and it seemed an eternity before I could fire it again, apart from once when I was slightly skewed to wall and went for a flying 'object' lesson.

SW and Gnomergen trinket seemed to just delay it. Two excuses I can feebly offer was better dps, so I was having to work on threat output and it was a bit laggy (SW & LS both failed to fire on one attempt) I was noticing the GCD actually effect what I was doing.

I was trying to ensure TC, & shout were always applied, but it did seem that SB was being eaten fast, and I'd have 3 secs of CB's that were dropping me to half health, even with heals landing, and another sec of frantic hammering on SB to repeat the cycle. Looking at my gear it seemed viable, the safe spot seemed to be working, I'm just a bit puzzled with why it went tits up again, (asides from the one with my crap positioning), and why I was soaking up so many CB's.

Any helpful comments would be appreciated, did get him to 30-40% but kinda grudge time now, as rest of the place is perfectly doable.

Armoury is here
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowsong&n=Dunmail)

Gnomergen trinket/Blue tanky cape usually worn and adding on shadamar's ring didn't seem to help.

AlmtyBob
02-28-2008, 02:58 AM
Dunmail, your stats are basically fine for downing Prince. Your only worry should be Phase 2. Announce at 61-62% that you're going into phase 2 and need to be topped off and spam healed. You'd be amazed at how many healers reactively heal that (and ever other fight). If you haven't downed him at all before, do NOT

AlmtyBob
02-28-2008, 03:05 AM
err...

do NOT blow your SW on your first attempt of the night at all. Don't blow your Last Stand unless you've got him below 40% or so. Your healers and melee DPS will need that first attempt to get their strat down. Beyond that make sure you pick up Legacy of the Mountain King (again for you second attempt), a Flask of the Titans, 20-30 stam food, and some protection and agility scrolls. You somewhat have to accept that fact the infernal drops have a lot to do with luck. If you 2+ members of your raid are down before phase 2 don't blow any cooldowns. Please don't "try" to ensure your tclap and demo shout are up, MAKE SURE. In phase 2 that's the difference between a heal landing and you being gibbed. With your stats a thrash/thrash/crush is 15k health. If you're below that...gibbed. Most importantly, you have Tankatronic Goggles and therefor don't really need anything from Prince, so relax. If you down him, great, if not, oh well. Downing Prince is not a requirement for making timed ZA runs on the first two bosses or hitting up Loot Reaver/The Loot Below in TK/SSC. Just try to convince your guild to hit Netherspite and Nightbane first for your shoulders and shield. 8)

Dunmail
02-28-2008, 03:25 AM
Cheers, covers a few things that were at the back of my mind, and a couple more to work on with commands and maybe KB layout to assist.

I was using Titans, 20 stam food and was given the book prior to fight. I do have NB's shield (hence thinking it ok with engy trinket from first run) but the rest of KZ has been a bit tight on the other shinies. Protection and Agility is a good idea, should have thought of that.

Also running it with different peeps, but now I've had a decent look at him (first run being clang clang smack smack thump splat, second having chance for ouch and oh bu'ger & ouch a few times before the splat). Progress I guess, just seemed a bit embarassing when you think you're kitted for the job.