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Satrina
12-07-2007, 03:04 PM
Inspired by a discussion on Elitist Jerks...


Are we sure it isn't Miss -> Dodge -> Parry -> Crushing Blow -> Critical Strike -> Hit?

So I went to test this. I unspecced my talents and stripped down gear to get to this basic combat table:

M: 5.00%
D: 5.06%
P: 5.00%
B: 7.28% (I used a Bayeux Shield of Blocking that has 18 block rating inherent, for the extra 2.28% block)
etc.

Of particular note, I was not wearing any gear with defense, so I am at my basic 350 defense and there is no reduction in chance to crit.

Now when I pop Shield Block against level 70, I have
M: 5.00%
D: 5.06%
P: 5.00%
B: 82.28%
?: 2.66%
(total of 97.34% miss + dodge + block + parry)

Off to Magtheridon's Lair! Here we have easy access to the Hellfire Warder, which we know does crushing blows on level 70, and obviously can crit as well. They're level 72, so I would need 101.6% (miss + dodge + block + parry) to push whatever is below block off of the table. With the 97.34% base, that leaves 4.26% chance leftover for whatever is going to be next after block on the table.

It was then noted (below) that Hellfire Warders may not be the best choice since they obviously have some funky thing that lets their level 72 selves crush level 70 tanks. I found Doom Lord Kazzak up this morning, so off I went again, this time against a standard raid boss.

What I learned:
1) You have to die a lot to find out what comes after block on this table =)

2) Hellfire Warders give this:
http://evilempireguild.org/misc/tabletest.jpg

3) Doom Lord Kazzak gives this (note two ticks of bloodrage = two seconds, between shield block up and getting hit):
http://evilempireguild.org/misc/tabletest2.jpg

So, nothing new. Miss -> Dodge -> Parry -> -> Critical Strike -> Crushing Blow -> Hit is the normal order of things. Hellfire Warders are an odd exception.

Taelas
12-07-2007, 03:16 PM
Well -- Hellfire Warders aren't the best subjects, are they? They already have special crush mechanics, being one of the few mobs that can crush at 72. Nothing says their attack table isn't special in this regard.

As far as I know, it was Blizzard who gave us the miss/dodge/parry/glancing/block/crit/crush/hit list... so I'm rather confused by that result.

Satrina
12-07-2007, 03:23 PM
Yeah, that's one thing I was wondering. I do know that the warders can crit also though, so I think it shouldn't matter. I think.

Edit: I know! Unless we actually kill Vashj on Sunday, I can test on her since there is no trash to clear. Just a hella longer run back.

Armstrong
12-07-2007, 03:42 PM
Funny, we're also working on Vashj these days and the rest of our instance is currently clear. I'll try to make some time to get that test done between now and raid time tonight.

Edit: hopefully I can live through her "Shoot" ability to get an actual melee hit on me. Plate DPS gear with no tanking stats should help a little. Maybe I can convince a healer to tag along. :P

Satrina
12-07-2007, 04:35 PM
No, no chance of that. I was careful to trigger shield block before engaging combat so that there were 3-4 seconds of shield block timer left when they first attacked me. I only had 4000 health, so each of these tests is a one shot.

Good call on the dps gear for more health. I'll do the same when I retest on Vashj or whoever I can find to reasonably do it.

thugthedum
12-07-2007, 05:03 PM
Hmm.

If it's true, is it anything other than trivia?

/me suspects this is a quick question with a long answer.

Armstrong
12-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Hmm.

If it's true, is it anything other than trivia?

/me suspects this is a quick question with a long answer.

In the grand scheme of things it's definitely just trivia. That said, there are so many things we don't even know how to begin to test, it's nice to figure out the things that actually can be tested, no matter how inconsequential.

Besides, you never know when certain mechanics that are unimportant right now will take on a bigger role down the road as new abilities, classes and game mechanics are added to the game.

Kazeyonoma
12-07-2007, 05:49 PM
In the grand scheme of things it's definitely just trivia. That said, there are so many things we don't even know how to begin to test, it's nice to figure out the things that actually can be tested, no matter how inconsequential.

Besides, you never know when certain mechanics that are unimportant right now will take on a bigger role down the road as new abilities, classes and game mechanics are added to the game.

agreed. Any knowledge, is valuable.

Nicki
12-07-2007, 07:44 PM
2 other candidates are:

Fordring in wpl and Arlokk in ZG (yes fordring lands crushing blows on level 70 players he also seems to have a simmilar parry chance to bosses and arlokk requires no trash clearing to get to! but a long run =\)

Satrina
12-08-2007, 02:11 AM
The real reason I did this is actually, ahem, is because of this passage in Uncrushable:

From here it's easy to see how we become uncrushable: Make the sum of (chance to be missed + chance to dodge + chance to parry + chance to block + chance to be critically hit) equal to 100%, and there is no room left on the table for crushing blows. Wait, what? Critical hits? Obviously, having any chance to be critically hit left on the table isn't very good and we want to remove that as well. It is true, though, that chance to be critically hit would go towards removing crushing blows - as insane as that would be to do in practice!

I really hate having incorrect stuff in my guides :D

But even though it's trivia, it's good to have things stated correctly because you never know when things will change and it may suddenly not be trivia.

Dugrin
12-08-2007, 03:24 AM
Anachronos in Tanaris might be a good test subject. He's right outside the meeting stones for CoT and is rated as a boss mob, so he should land crushing blows on a lvl 70 player character.

Armstrong
12-08-2007, 05:44 AM
2 other candidates are:

Fordring in wpl and Arlokk in ZG (yes fordring lands crushing blows on level 70 players he also seems to have a simmilar parry chance to bosses and arlokk requires no trash clearing to get to! but a long run =\)

Yeah I wasn't able to find the time to go test this on Vashj yesterday, sorry.

I agree that a pre-TBC boss might be a more convenient candidate if we can assume that the combat table is identical. Other TBC bosses might also be better suited, such as Doomwalker.

Satrina
12-08-2007, 08:09 AM
I found Kazzak up:

http://evilempireguild.org/misc/tabletest2.jpg
(note two pulses of bloodrage = two seconds, between shield block up and the hit landing)

Good call on the messed up table of the Hellfire Warders!

Nicki
12-08-2007, 08:16 AM
Thats huge!

This means that unless you have crit immunity you could possibly be crit with shield block up? O_o the question i suppose is does avoidance remove crits or is it only defense.

Nicki
12-08-2007, 08:17 AM
Anachronos in Tanaris might be a good test subject. He's right outside the meeting stones for CoT and is rated as a boss mob, so he should land crushing blows on a lvl 70 player character.

doesnt crush ive run up ato him quite a few times :D

Satrina
12-08-2007, 08:24 AM
It validates my note in the Uncrushable that if you are in an uncrushable state (passive, Shield Block, Holy Shield) then you are also uncrittable, since your combat table will end at Block. As long as (miss + dodge + parry + block) is 102.4% or better, you cannot be crit or crushed.

It also means that because you can lose your uncrushable state from stuns, disarms, attacks from behind, etc., you always want to be crit immune from defense (resilience), because those same things would mean you are open to crits which would be worse than crushes, of course.

Edit: Yeah, I let Anachronos kill me 20 times in dps gear, and he never crushed me. That's when I went looking and found Kazzak up. Too bad. If Anachronos could crush he would be absolutely perfect, since I never got past Unfriendly with his faction before I took a break from WoW and came back for TBC. I can stand beside him and get ready to do whatever I need, then punch him in the face. And res beside him. Ah well =)

Satrina
12-08-2007, 08:33 AM
This means that unless you have crit immunity you could possibly be crit with shield block up?

Oh, no. The question I was answering was whether the precedence on the combat table is

Miss -> Dodge -> Parry -> Block -> Crit -> Crush -> Hit
or
Miss -> Dodge -> Parry -> Block -> Crush -> Crit -> Hit

Conventional wisdom has been that it is crit -> crush, but in every discussion there is always someone who points to Twin Emps and says they're positive it's crush -> crit. (Edit: Just as there's always someone who wonders if it's dodge -> parry or parry-> dodge)

I chose poorly on my first test because Hellfire Warders, as Norrath notes are already messed up being level 72s that crush. Indeed, my test there shows that for them crush does come before crit. Second test against a no-gimmicks raid boss give what should be the reality for most bosses. Presumably, Twin Emps could have funky combat tables themselves because of Unbalancing Strike.

Horgar
12-08-2007, 12:44 PM
Neat.

Satrina
12-09-2007, 04:33 PM
Yep. And it also implies that Hellfire Warders have a really screwy combat table against you =)

Cairn
12-09-2007, 04:56 PM
Hmm 75 % + 7 % = 82 % block..

Crit because he hasn't 490 def ( or X def + resi )

I don't understand the reason ..

thugthedum
12-09-2007, 05:26 PM
I found Kazzak up:

http://evilempireguild.org/misc/tabletest2.jpg
(note two pulses of bloodrage = two seconds, between shield block up and the hit landing)

Good call on the messed up table of the Hellfire Warders!

nice.

BTW, didn't mean to suggest it was trivia I wasn't interested in hearing about. I was assuming it didn't have any impact on my game today, but I was just confirming it with smarter folk.

Kazeyonoma
12-10-2007, 10:34 AM
great research satrina, always good to bolster our knowledge of the combat table.