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Maddox
12-07-2007, 10:14 AM
Ok, this is my first post on tankspot, and its going to be a long one. I've come to respect you guys here, and over my tanking career i've turned to the guides here and data presented by alot of your members to help me decide what to do.

A little background, i've played a tank warrior since december of release (2004 if i recall). Pre-BC i tanked tons of 5man content (its all we had) cleared MC and the 20mans ZG and AQ20, also stuck my feet into AQ40 and BWL (guild at the time wasn't a raiding guild).

Now post-BC i've done alot more 'serious' tanking as it were. Cleared all of Karazhan and Zul'Aman (2nd on server i might add :-D), also cleared Gruul, and we've got a majorty of bosses down in SSC / TK as well as the world bosses. I'd like to think i've come into a more serious raiding situation that pre-BC, but at the same time, nothing has really made me stop and say "Woah! i'm in over my head!". Often i'm requested to tank heroics and/or raids as often as possible, and i enjoy it. I enjoy challenges.

Now that THATS over, here is my dillemma.

My tanking style of choice favors avoidance over effective health. Its the way i've learned to tank and its the style i prefer (i've tried going damage-soak all stam/AC/blockval and didn't enjoy it much). I've learned to overcome the spiky rage generation -thus- my threat is above where it needs to be. Also my healers tend to be reactive and not proactive healers, so by dodging and parrying i don't get excessive overheal.

Now, i'm no fool, each boss fight had a gear set that can optimize the fight for you, and even in full avoidance gear i have enough health to survive bad luck. Heavy avoidance rocks on the Lynx boss and Tidewalker, but heavy stam is great for fights like Void Reaver and Lurker. I've build a gear set of each. In full avoidance i'm sitting at 58% passive avoid with 30% block. In full stam i'm sitting over 16k unbuffed HP with 17,050 AC and 500 block val(sorry i didn't do the effective health math on that). I've got a meet-in-the-middle set with a healthy helping of both.

My problem arises in what to do now. Everywhere i go for tanking gear advice tells me i'm an idiot and don't know what i'm doing. I'd like to push myself to higher levels and do better, but i've hit a brick wall with avoidance tanking as few people actually use it to the extent i do. I'm strongly tempted to shelve my fancy avoidance set, re-socket all with star of elune, and wear my full effective health gear 24/7, just so that i know how to improve.

Are there any other tanks out there who prefer the avoid-style of tanking? I know my healers appreciate the style, and i know that i can hold aggro above our DPS easily enough (and they're no fools either), but i've come to a brick wall with the community. Any advice or suggestions on how to improve or where to look for info? If you'd like more specifics i'd be glad to give them.

Thanks for taking the time to read the wall of text. :-) If you're interested in armory-ing me, feel free, if i remember i was wearing my Mixed set when i logged out.


Edit: Blah, i posted in the wrong section of the forums. Please move this to the General Section since i can't delete this one and repost. Sorry about that.

Crimsonstorm
12-07-2007, 10:24 AM
I used to love avoidance when I was doing 5 mans, and when I started kara. It was gruul and nightbane that tought me otherwise, especially gruul. I was sick of long periods of no rage as an OT on gruul when Id dodge a couple, and I couldnt make any threat. And even as MT on him early on there was almost no rage.

The better your avoidance gear gets the worse it screws your threat. I like to heroic strike on like 60%+ of autoattacks, and you cant do that with high avoidance.

I have 14% dodge 15% parry and about 470 defense (with some resilience for uncrittable) in my effective health gear. 17250 hp 18300 armor 650 block value. With Tier 5 level gear.

With my more standard tanking gear Its like 16khp/17.5k armor/825 block value with some more avoidance and very high block%, for trash/5mans.

To me there is value in an effective health set, and value in a 'multimob block set', which eventually becomes your uncrushable set with enough block rating.

Wartorn
12-07-2007, 10:25 AM
As long as you have enough EH and threat, there is nothing wrong with avoidance tanking.

BTW, I still prefer EH tanking. :P

Maddox
12-07-2007, 10:31 AM
The streaks of no-rage i've come to deal with and now can get around without difficulty. I've spec'ed for improved bloodrage and burn it every CD, i've got anger mangement for some passive rage gen, also i'm scoring both Focused Rage and 2/3 in imp devistate and imp HS. All that combined with a good 1h threat weap and totally damage-less i can still output good TPS.

If i don't blow my avoid trinkets until after i'm a good cushion ahead on threat, i generally don't have an issue. I've just now started to put together a "passive uncrush" gear setup. i've already got one for duel-wield bosses (was honestly very easy to make with all my avoid gear), and of coarse i've got a pure threat gear setup for heroics and trash mobs.

What should i do now? Focus on pushing my avoidance over 60%? Try to get 16k unbuffed HP with my hefty avoidance? I'm just like "well, now what" as far as improvements

Kazeyonoma
12-07-2007, 10:34 AM
reactive healing whether your healers are smart or if you have a ton of avoidance will fail on raid bosses.

They will wait, they will wait, then you'll get hit, and they'll start the heal, then normally you'll avoid some mroe and the heal will go through, that's fine, but in the situatoins where you get hit 2 more times after that, you're dead, they'll never get the heals off and if they do you won't get topped off in time. you're healers won't overheal as long as they do a pro-active/reactive mix. Start casting the heal, and cancel it at the very last moment if you are already topped off. That is what makes a smart raid healer different from your spamming flash of light healer.

There is nothing wrong with wearing avoidance if you meet a minimum health requirement for a fight. What is that minimum health requirement? No one truly knows yet since there's not enough testing, but its as Wanderlei mentioned on the U.S. Forums. Stacking stamina to reach a certain health minimum is smart. Stacking stamina beyond that certain health minimum for no reason isn't. His theory was something along the lines of: "if i have x hp, i can survive y # of hits. If increasing my x hp by even more, will it increase the y# of hits for me to survive? If not, then x hp is good enough for now and more avoidance will in fact help smooth out my chance of getting hit y # of hits in a row." Combine this with Joanadark's article on EDF (Effective Damage Frequency) and it all makes sense. What joana basically says (and this is a very broad summary) is that having more avoidance, makes it more reliable. At 20% dodge, you have 20% dodge, that doesn't guarantee that 1 out of 5 hits will be avoided. However, having 35% dodge, doesn't guarantee that 1/3 hits will be avoided either BUT the odds are far more in favor of it happening. What you effectively do then with avoidance, is not use it as a means to survive hits, but rather to space out the # of hits you WILL in fact be taking. Combining this with smart Effective health stacking and you can see how quickly this subject gets complex. But Joana says it perfectly: "EH cannot survive without at least a minimum level of EDF and EDF cannot survive without at least a minimum level of EH" The true mastery is figuring out what is the balance and for which encounters.

So is avoidance bad? By no means. Is it smart to stack? Not at the expense of hp in "most" scenarios.
Is stacking nothing but hp at the expense of tons of avoidance bad? Sometimes it doesn't hurt but you gotta weigh your gains and losses!

Solution? Have tons of gear, gem them for avoidance, gem them for stamina, gem them for threat, have all 3 handy and be ready to swap them in and out and wear multiple pieces for various fights. Doing this will be prove to be tried and true better than anyone can yell at you to stack one or the other.

Crimsonstorm
12-07-2007, 10:38 AM
When I am overgeared for a fight I DONT like to swap out effective health for avoidance. I swap it for more threat.

Generally these fights your raid is overgeared for and people want to go all out. You need MORE threat not less. Avoidance = less threat. That is the main problem with avoidance imo. It destroys your ability to heroic strike on most attacks.

For me there are basically 3 reasonable tanking gear sets (not counting resist sets)

There is all out Armor/Stam. This is for very hard hitting bosses when threat is no issue becuase you get a threat lead. (Magtheridon for example, or Karathress).

There is Armor/Stam/Block Value. This is for general raid boss tanking.

There is Block Value/Expertise/Hit. This is for doing maximum threat on stuff youre overgeared for, and trash. Versus trash this set probably also has high block rating, which with high BV is great mitigation for 5mans/trash.

Maddox
12-07-2007, 10:43 AM
Gotcha, thanks for the replies.

The comment you quoted about EDF and avoidance is one i remember, it reminded me that i wasn't a fool by doing what i was doing, if you don't have enough health to survive that 1 more swing, the difference between 1000 hp and 50hp is zero if he overkills you for 1100 damage.

I'll try to keep an eye on average boss damage output, and then try to find the break-even point for health and gear for it. Like you said having a set of each can't hurt at all, just more time consuming.

What's a good health minimum you'd suggest? Or a better question since that one is too complicated, whats a good number of hits i should be able to soak in succession without being healed? 3-4 seconds? Long enough to cast a heal if my healers arn't afk?

Example: I'm tanking Lurker. He's swinging for an average of 4k. Through a block thats down to 3.5k. If i don't avoid at all for 4 swings i'll take 14k damage, so fully buffed i better have over 14k HP or i'll get 4-shotted. If i don't block at all, those 4ks become 6k, so now to avoid 3 crushes in a row, i'll need over 18k fully buffed HP, so a good average would be 16k and off i go. Like that?

Wartorn
12-07-2007, 10:50 AM
When I am overgeared for a fight I DONT like to swap out effective health for avoidance. I swap it for more threat.

I do the same thing.

TPS and health is the prot warriors epeen. ^^

Saying "Man, I totally put up sustained 1300 TPS on that mob" is way cooler than "Man, I totally dodged 5 attacks in a row" :P

But at the same time my TPS/EH are usually overkill and some avoidance would probably help the healers relax a bit.

Maddox
12-07-2007, 10:54 AM
My running best is 14 in a row

14 totally avoided attacks in a row, and didn't lose threat.

If i remember, it was on the Bear boss in ZA when we were learning him. Opened up with a trinket, and i began to wonder if my trinket ever wore off. :-)

But yea, if i talk to another tank they're always like "Dude, i totally have 17k unbuffed hp, what about you?" and i get to respond with "uh, i have 30% dodge?" Its fun for fights like Prince watching the healers anticipate an overheal spam fest, only get get bored out of their minds during axes.

Tho i just got my Aquir artifact from ZJ last week, i'm hoping to break that record soon.

Any idea on a # of hits or # of seconds i should shoot for to soak in a row?

Wartorn
12-07-2007, 10:57 AM
I'd say a good baseline HP/armor for T5 is 20K HP and 17K armor fully buffed. You should be able to easily tank every boss in SSC/TK with numbers like that.

Kazeyonoma
12-07-2007, 11:00 AM
Gotcha, thanks for the replies.

The comment you quoted about EDF and avoidance is one i remember, it reminded me that i wasn't a fool by doing what i was doing, if you don't have enough health to survive that 1 more swing, the difference between 1000 hp and 50hp is zero if he overkills you for 1100 damage.

I'll try to keep an eye on average boss damage output, and then try to find the break-even point for health and gear for it. Like you said having a set of each can't hurt at all, just more time consuming.

What's a good health minimum you'd suggest? Or a better question since that one is too complicated, whats a good number of hits i should be able to soak in succession without being healed? 3-4 seconds? Long enough to cast a heal if my healers arn't afk?

Example: I'm tanking Lurker. He's swinging for an average of 4k. Through a block thats down to 3.5k. If i don't avoid at all for 4 swings i'll take 14k damage, so fully buffed i better have over 14k HP or i'll get 4-shotted. If i don't block at all, those 4ks become 6k, so now to avoid 3 crushes in a row, i'll need over 18k fully buffed HP, so a good average would be 16k and off i go. Like that?

That's definitely a smart way to think of it, but as crimson said, if you outgear a place, gearing for threat will normally lead to good outcomes, but if you're progressing and all the hp in the world isn't helping, try doing what you're doing.

Paruhdox
12-07-2007, 11:12 AM
Joanna,s numbers are a little bit better for the average, I'm in full T6 and raid buffed I hit 21.5ish with commanding and 20k armor with out a pally and my shield sucks...

Wartorn
12-07-2007, 11:16 AM
Not everyone's a tauren.

WHAT?!?!

How about we meet in the middle. 19.25K!

Mordigen
12-07-2007, 11:16 AM
I started off the same way, I got as much dodge as I could and then once I started getting gear with parry that fit in, I would use that too. Most of my tanking through kara was a mix of what I would call an avoidance set, about 25% dodge and 22% parry. I would socket with def stam gems, agi stam gems, or 12 stam gems in any blue sockets. I had what I felt was a good balance, but not a max stam set by any means. I have been working on my new gear as a stam set, but still have my old gear for the avoidance. I do feel the same way, I think my guild is use to how I tank, and I usually don't have a problem with aggro at all in my set in raids, smaller instances where I get hit less and have less rage is different, and I think my healers appreciate the number of avoidance as well. I have spent enough time on here to try out the EH set that a lot of people talk about and that is what I am working on now so I can max my health and armor to prepare for the harder hitting bosses. It is hard to give a solid number for what to have, but as long as your healers are comfortable and you are making progress then you must be doing something right.

Bonerot
12-07-2007, 11:31 AM
In our farming raids the healers have so much mana and so much +heal they are falling asleep healing me in my EH gear.

I'd rather have healers in a nice flow of incoming EH damage flow then jumpy like over caffeinated poodles with itchy trigger fingers hovering over the heal the tank button waiting for for me to get hit.

We do have an equally well geared avoidance tank but it's hard to see a huge benefit one way or the other where we are which is clearing kara and just cleared GL.

Wartorn
12-07-2007, 11:38 AM
For <Pizza Warriors>, Tealik and Maximuspapa tanked Vashj for the kill with less than 19k HP.

When Alrick tried to do it a week later with 17.8k hp and a heavy focus on avoidance, he got destroyed.


I'm happy with the numbers I quoted.

How much do they stack for Tidalvas and Morogrim?

Taelas
12-07-2007, 11:48 AM
Rather than quote health and armor minimums, maybe we should be quoting EH minimums. :p

For instance, I'm at a solid 35k unbuffed (my gear right now is destroyed, didn't bother to repair after my last raid as I didn't have enough gold on the toon), nearly 40k fully buffed. I've reached ~19k health fully buffed. I got three-shot on Maulgar twice in a row the only time I've been in Gruul's on Norrath. That was ... rather distressing. (~6k hit, ~7k special, ~6k hit, dead. Within two seconds. Twice in a row, almost exactly the same hits.)

My armor is rather low as my shield is crap, but I don't feel that it's low enough that I should die this fast. Was I just unlucky or is my EH really that much too low?

Satrina
12-07-2007, 12:04 PM
My running best is 14 in a row
14 totally avoided attacks in a row, and didn't lose threat.
The questions you need to ask at that point are of your DPS: Did you have to hold back? How much?

On Fathom-Lord, I am usually the Karathress tank. When the rest of the raid finishes the first 3, they come in on Karathress when I have about 300K threat already built up. This is when I watch our hunters and enhancement shaman light it up to 1200-1300TPS - with Salvation on! - in a scenario where there is no threat cap for them to worry about. The DPS warriors and warlocks are usually right behind that in the 900+ TPS range.

I'm not saying avoidance is bad by any stretch. However, when you're looking at streaks, someone is almost certainly paying the bill for it.

Edit: On the other hand, it's possible to over-EH yourself up to the point where so much healing needs to be focused on you that others suffer if there is raid-wide damage happening.

Maddox
12-07-2007, 01:16 PM
Thanks very much everyone for your well-thought out advice and explainations.

I'll keep working on my tanking (as always) and try to get a feel for a good effective health baseline to shoot for and then throw avoidance on top of that.

to answer your previous question - no, luckily i don't panic my healers with accordian health bars that go from 10&#37; to 100% and back every 5 seconds, often my damage is very steady along the lines of dodge, dodge, 4k thru a block, parry, dodge, 4k through a block, dodge, dodge, dodge, 4k through a block, parry . . . etc. If anything the tanks i run with have very unstable health bars. The other tank i'm often with is a solid EH tank, but her health bar fluctuates a great deal - so much that we didnt' beat lynx boss until she soaked saberlashes instead of me, go figure.

I can't say for a minute tho that i don't get unlucky streaks of hit hit hit crush dead. It happens, but very rarely.

And satrina to answer your question, when i took 14 avoids in a row, yea i'd almost gaurentee our DPS had to hold back a bit (bear boss has alot of transitions), but from taunting off our bear-tank i had a huge huge aggro ceiling to work with, then couple taht with my 700 hit-less TPS i was more than able to keep above the DPS until the next transition. I'll keep a closer eye on Omen and see if my avoid-streaks are causing our DPS to run on the edge of my threat or if they are safe. From just glancing on occasion i'm often 10-20% above the 2nd on threat, but i'll keep an eye on it.

Thanks again everyone

Crimsonstorm
12-07-2007, 03:33 PM
I'd say a good baseline HP/armor for T5 is 20K HP and 17K armor fully buffed. You should be able to easily tank every boss in SSC/TK with numbers like that.

I <3 my 23k hp 22k armor fully buffed :) (5/6 & 3/4 progression)

Crimsonstorm
12-07-2007, 03:45 PM
I'll keep working on my tanking (as always) and try to get a feel for a good effective health baseline to shoot for and then throw avoidance on top of that.

The flaw with this is that once you have "enough" effective health for a given encounter, the most beneficial things to add are :

Best More threat (&dps).

2nd best: Even more effective health (more room for surviving errors)

Least beneficial: More avoidance.



What happens when you add avoidance is:

1) You have a greater chance of taking no hits over a period of time, thus rage starving you so you fail to use some GCDs. You also get a lot less average rage over time and thus generate less threat. (Bad)

2) You have a smaller chance of taking eating hits in a row (Good). Thus there are less 'dangerous' occasionas when a missed heal or mistake could kill you.

3) You healers get LAZY. They stop precasting because youre not tkaing damage, or they sneak some raid heals in there becaue youre at top and not taking damage. This can cause you to die when the burst DOES come (which it will, just less often). It is far, far easier to heal a target that consistently loses moderate %ages of their health, than one that goes in streaks of not taking damage and then takes larger %ages. Because the healers get lazy during the avoidance streaks, and then when the damage comes its a larger %age of your life AND sometimes they arent prepared for it.

4) Your healers save mana more often by canceling casts. This can be good however it only matters in cases where your healers wouldve gone OOM. Healers rarely go OOM in my experience, except in extreme cases )like when several healers die and those who are left are trying to do everything at once).


Finally there is the sexiness of effective health and threat, and the unsexiness of avoidance.

Generating more threat = sexy.
Doing more dps while tanking is sexy.
Having a bigger number of HPs is sexy.

When avoidance doesnt work = not sexy.
When avoidance works A LOT (dodge streaks) = NOT ACTUALLY SEXY because you have no rage to do ANYTHING, and your healers are doing nothing when they could easily just be healing you.


I personally find no use for a 'avoidance' set. There IS use for a 'passive uncrushable' set, once you can make it, and it it doesnt sacrifice too much stam/armor to achieve (i.e. if you use a lot of block rating to do it). So essentially an 'avoidance' set is an uncrushable set that isnt actually uncrushable yet. It sacrifices stam/armor for avoidance but doesnt manage to give protection against the big killer: crushes.

Passive uncrushable set is like an avoidance set that ALSO eliminates crushes, which makes it worth it. (Because not being able to be crushed is actually worth a significant amount of effective health)

Satrina
12-07-2007, 03:49 PM
I'll keep a closer eye on Omen and see if my avoid-streaks are causing our DPS to run on the edge of my threat or if they are safe. From just glancing on occasion i'm often 10-20&#37; above the 2nd on threat, but i'll keep an eye on it.

Keep in mind that if your DPS are anywhere near decent, you will never see any sign of it on Omen - they'll always ride below whatever your threat is to be safe. Best bet is to just ask them.

Crimsonstorm
12-07-2007, 03:49 PM
Edit: On the other hand, it's possible to over-EH yourself up to the point where so much healing needs to be focused on you that others suffer if there is raid-wide damage happening.

This is only true is all of the 'effective health' is from stamina.

If a lot of it is from armor and block value, which it should be, then youre really not taking much more damage than anyone else.


Also an avoidance tank's healers end up with a lot more overheals. The dodges usually just cause overheals. They dont cause you to need less healers or anything. That avoidance tank needs the same amount of healers for the times when they DO eat the burst damage. Its just that those healers spend more of their time not doing anything (but they cant do something else or slack off for a second).

Maddox
12-08-2007, 07:40 AM
I see what you're saying crimson, and i've heard the arguments against avoidance. Rather than give my well-rehersed counter-argument i'll just say that its not my style and i don't enjoy it.

For me its alot more fun to have strings of dodge and parry and to give my healers time to regen in a boss fight and/or do backup and raid heals when i'm ok. Like you mentioned before this can cause my healers to get lazy, which is always a risk, but i trust them to make the right descion on to focus entirly on me, or to spread themselves out. If you'd like a classic rebuttle of avoidance versus EH i can give it to ya tho. A healthy mix of both can't hurt, as others have said. You sure your examples are anecdotal? or just theory? Often when i'm tanking we require less healers and we have the same amount of overheal when our EH tank is tanking.

Taelas
12-08-2007, 09:06 AM
Crimson, you are really downplaying the effectiveness of avoidance. It is NOT as bad as you make out.

A tank who has focused on avoidance will not always see 10 avoided hits in a row. He'll see 2 in a row, 1 hit, 3 in a row, 2 hits, 2 in a row, 1 hit, etc.

While dodge "streaks" do happen, they aren't that common.

Joanadark has explained the strengths of avoidance best: Effective Damage Frequency, or EDF. Basically, it means that with avoidance, you minimize the chance of taking two hits back-to-back. You spread the damage that you take out over time. To paraphrase Joana, "EDF works because healing is not just a hole you pour mana into." You minimize mistakes, you try to cover up for the human factor.

Also, there is a point where additional stamina does nothing. Zip, zada, zilch. Let's say an EH tank is fighting a boss that gives as his absolute maximum 12,000 damage in 3 seconds. The tank has enough healers that after 3 seconds (which is the cast time of a Greater Heal), they have healed him for 13,000 damage.

Let's assume he has 20,000 health. If the healers slack off to the point that he takes another 4,000 damage in the next second before all the heals land, he will have 17,000 health to survive the next spike with, enough to survive if the healers slack off again. It shouldn't have to go that far, though. Assuming the healers do NOT slack off at all, he has 7,000 health that does jack. His health never goes below 7,000. He could have used those itempoints to get more threat, get more avoidance, whatever.

The reason EH works is because it's difficult to find that sweet spot where additional health does nothing, especially on encounters you do not have much experience with. You will never really go wrong with EH -- the tank in the example doesn't die, for instance -- but just because it works does not mean it is the best way to do it.

The absolute best way to go for a tank is to get enough avoidance that he regularly spreads out the damage that he takes, but also has enough EH to survive the spikes. EDF+EH.

Maddox
12-08-2007, 11:45 AM
Thanks norrath

Nilya
12-10-2007, 05:07 AM
One thing worth thinking about: if avoidance works for you, who cares what the community thinks? "If it ain't broke..."

brain9h
12-10-2007, 07:43 AM
Also, there is a point where additional stamina does nothing. Zip, zada, zilch.



Let's say an EH tank is fighting a boss that gives as his absolute maximum 12,000 damage in 3 seconds.



The tank has enough healers that after 3 seconds (which is the cast time of a Greater Heal), they have healed him for 13,000 damage.


That is a misconception based on an idealization of the battle: in paper, you are right on spot, but in practice, the more EH the better.

There is no such thing as "absolute maximum" damage spike because "shit happens". Your healers can get dragged into watery graves, get silenced, need to move, just plain die, disconnect, lag, spill coffee on the mouse, get distracted by theirs moms or angry spouses, have their dogs jump on their laps, and so on. Anyone can come up with 1000 creative ways to cause your healers job can suffer some seconds of interruption in a 10 minute long battle.

The very definition of EH is tied to your time-to-live. The more EH, the more time you give your healers, the more provision you give them for bad things. Avoidance helps too in those dire circumstances, except it is not reliable as EH.

Of course all EDF arguments still apply, you NEED avoidance to sparse the damage intake and save your shield block charges more often.

EH+EDF is the way to go for sure, the ammount of EDF being encounter-dependent. My point here is that there is no such thing as a maximum stamina point.

cheers,

Taelas
12-10-2007, 07:53 AM
That is a misconception based on an idealization of the battle: in paper, you are right on spot, but in practice, the more EH the better.
I disagree. Yes, there are unforeseen factors, but you do not need EH to cover them up. You need EDF.


There is no such thing as "absolute maximum" damage spike because "shit happens". Your healers can get dragged into watery graves, get silenced, need to move, just plain die, disconnect, lag, spill coffee on the mouse, get distracted by theirs moms or angry spouses, have their dogs jump on their laps, and so on. Anyone can come up with 1000 creative ways to cause your healers job can suffer some seconds of interruption in a 10 minute long battle.
That is what EDF is pointed at. Spreading out the damage to allow for mistakes to happen. You can do this with EH, yes -- like I said, in the example, the tank doesn't die.


The very definition of EH is tied to your time-to-live. The more EH, the more time you give your healers, the more provision you give them for bad things. Avoidance helps too in those dire circumstances, except it is not reliable as EH.
That depends entirely on how much avoidance you have.


My point here is that there is no such thing as a maximum stamina point.

Yes, there is. When you consistently have a significant amount of health more than your maximum damage intake just before you are healed to full, you've passed it.

Yes, it fluctuates. I've already said it's hard to judge when and where that sweet spot is. That does not change the fact that it is there.

For instance, go tank Gnomeregan. :P I bet you anything you're way, way beyond the maximum stamina point.

Razmo
12-10-2007, 07:53 AM
I'm a Kara tank, MT in my guild. 15,5K unbuffed HP and 16K Armor. (damn armory won't update). Anyway I used to have 23&#37; dodge/ 20% parry and 27% block but I rly hated it. Not enough rage grrrrrrrr. So I went from 13,5k HP to 15,5 and 20% dodge, 18% parry, 21,5% block and the tanking is more fun :D. I don't have boring healers and the threat is high enough :D.

So EH gear FTW

Foolishness
12-10-2007, 08:22 AM
Hey Maddox,

I am much in the same boat as you. I love to try and 'optimise' my gear, and I have a tonne of avoidance.

I believe that avoidance tanking is unpopular for the following reason. To avoidance tank you need to do it properly but you still need to keep your stam high. You cant try to gear for avoidance with the wrong gear. Its easy to slap on the stam like theres no tomorrow, and still keep a minimum avoidance and tank everything that you come across. But to be a good avoidance tank, you need to have huge avoidance, and acceptable health. You also need to be able to make the most of your rage.

Currently I tank hard hitting bosses with about 62&#37; avoidance and 14.5K HP unbuffed. Raid buffed I usually hit about 19200 HP and 64% avoidance. Currently working on SSC/TK bosses. I use Stam/ threat gear to tank soft hitters, trash or for situations where threat is more important.

The avoidance gear is great, i feel like a juggernaught when I wear it. On the other hand I seem to be taking constant spike damage in my Stam gear and it always feels risky when i tank hard hitting bosses in it. The way i see it, my health is only marginally lower than an EH tank but i'm taking a lot less hits. Makes more sense to me.

I also keep an eye on my damage report when i die. In most situations when i die, i take more damage than an extra 1.5KHP would have saved me for.

Anyhow in regards to your question about improving gear, I think there are many great options.

My goal is to significantly raise my HP to a level where it is comparable to EH tanks, while becoming uncrushable and at least keeping the same avoidance, or raising it even further. The idea of being uncrushable, with big stam and huge avoidance at a tier 5 level is a very enticing, and with the new gear in 2.3, i think this goal is possible. The only thing you need to sacrifice is a bit of SBV.

Also, regarding aggro for most fights i am doing, i find threat is of absolutely no problem for several reasons. Main reason is because many of the fights require the DPS engage in other activities or periods of not attacking my tanked target.

Bonerot
12-10-2007, 08:33 AM
I've found myself being too one dimensional a couple of times and letting other stuff slide. In my love of more stamina, armor and purples I had swapped out some blues without thinking of what it did to my OT threat when I need to do that since my MT threat was so high.

I think you need to constantly review your armor and gearing choices depending on the role you are expected to fill there isn't a single stat that is ALWAYS worth having more at the expense of everything else. Thank god for Item rack and please blizz 40 slot armor/weapon bags.

Foolishness
12-10-2007, 08:36 AM
I think you need to constantly review your armor and gearing choices depending on the role you are expected to fill there isn't a single stat that is ALWAYS worth having more at the expense of everything else. Thank god for Item rack and please blizz 40 slot armor/weapon bags.

amen

Kazeyonoma
12-10-2007, 09:44 AM
Crimson, you are really downplaying the effectiveness of avoidance. It is NOT as bad as you make out.

A tank who has focused on avoidance will not always see 10 avoided hits in a row. He'll see 2 in a row, 1 hit, 3 in a row, 2 hits, 2 in a row, 1 hit, etc.

While dodge "streaks" do happen, they aren't that common.

Joanadark has explained the strengths of avoidance best: Effective Damage Frequency, or EDF. Basically, it means that with avoidance, you minimize the chance of taking two hits back-to-back. You spread the damage that you take out over time. To paraphrase Joana, "EDF works because healing is not just a hole you pour mana into." You minimize mistakes, you try to cover up for the human factor.

Also, there is a point where additional stamina does nothing. Zip, zada, zilch. Let's say an EH tank is fighting a boss that gives as his absolute maximum 12,000 damage in 3 seconds. The tank has enough healers that after 3 seconds (which is the cast time of a Greater Heal), they have healed him for 13,000 damage.

Let's assume he has 20,000 health. If the healers slack off to the point that he takes another 4,000 damage in the next second before all the heals land, he will have 17,000 health to survive the next spike with, enough to survive if the healers slack off again. It shouldn't have to go that far, though. Assuming the healers do NOT slack off at all, he has 7,000 health that does jack. His health never goes below 7,000. He could have used those itempoints to get more threat, get more avoidance, whatever.

The reason EH works is because it's difficult to find that sweet spot where additional health does nothing, especially on encounters you do not have much experience with. You will never really go wrong with EH -- the tank in the example doesn't die, for instance -- but just because it works does not mean it is the best way to do it.

The absolute best way to go for a tank is to get enough avoidance that he regularly spreads out the damage that he takes, but also has enough EH to survive the spikes. EDF+EH.

/thread

;P imo anyways, but do what works best for your individual playstyle, this is just the best possible way to do things, sure going full avoidance you can down a boss, but so can a 10khp tank if he gets lucky enough. Do what you can to best utilize your raids capabilities and your own encounters.

Naka
12-11-2007, 01:27 AM
Plus there's the beauty of not going with the flow by being an avoidance tank. :p

Rainge
12-11-2007, 02:44 AM
Having both healed and tanked, I can say with certainty that I like a very healthy mixture of both avoidance and effective health. Once you're fairly certain you can survive spikes, try to spread out the damage so that spikes are less frequent.

Now fortunately, as a Paladin, I'm not often in the boat of being mana-starved in boss fights. I might think a bit differently if I had a rage bar.

Elson
12-13-2007, 03:05 AM
At the risk of saying what others have said already.

I am one of the main tanks in my guild who is currently at 2/4 TK and 2/6 SSC. I tend to favor effective health over avoidance, but have an avoidance set as well. In my stamina/armor set I am sitting at just over 22k fully raid buffed and 18.2k armor before stone shield potions/crit heal procs. This set also puts me at about 42%ish combined miss, dodge, and parry. My avoidance set causes me to loose about 1k armor, 2k+ health, and gain about 12% pure avoidance.

In most situations I find myself using the effective health set and It has payed off rather well. We finally downed magtheridon about a week ago due to never having the locks online to try him before. I wore my stam gear for this fight and at one point my health dropped to 487 out of that 22.2k. Magtheridon has a huge damage range on his abilities and the amount he hits me for is made even more unpredictable by whether or not I have the armor buff from crit shammy/priest heals active. In a situation like this where the damage range is so unpredictable I have found it is best to have as much effective health as possible because its very hard to tell what that "minimum range" actually is.

Meanwhile on other fights I know exactly how hard I am going to get hit and can figure out if its reasonable for me to be able to survive an extra hit through effective health or not. If I can survive three hits, but not four then it is time for more avoidance/threat depending on what I have the gear for. Personally, I love fights where I know my stam gear won't make the difference because then I can equip my emergency trinkets and have more direct control over my survival.

The bottom line is what you do next is determined by what will give you the greatest ability to survive an extra hit or avoid it if you cannot survive it.