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veneretio
12-06-2007, 11:33 AM
Passive Uncrushable is all the rage these days and I must agree that I love the concept too, but it got me to thinking... have we been thinking?

The concept: You never have to use shield block again!
The reward: You don't get crushing blowed!

When does this help really help though? To put it more clearly...
What fights make it worth the significant Armor/Stamina/Threat loss in order to utilize such a set?

Here is a boss list:

ZA
Nalorakk
Akil'zon
Jan'alai
Halazzi
Hex Lord Malacrass
Zul'jin

Tempest Keep
Al'ar
Void Reaver
High Astromancer Solarian
Kael'thas Sunstrider

SSC
Hydross the Unstable
The Lurker Below
Leotheras the Blind
Fathom-Lord Karathress
Morogrim Tidewalker
Lady Vashj

Black Temple
High Warlord Naj'entus
Supremus
Shade of Akama
Teron Gorefiend
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Reliquary of Souls
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council
Illidan Stormrage

Hyjal
Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal
Azgalor
Archimonde

(I haven't listed Kara because frankly if it's only good for Kara then it's kinda a waste of time since you basically in ZA/SSC/TK loot to make a decent set)

Melange
12-06-2007, 12:03 PM
My guild has 2 Warriors, 2 Paladins, and me, the Druid, as tanks. Most of the time our warriors die, you read the death report in recount and it says something like

-4.50 {Warrior} gains Shield Block.
-1.50 Shield Block fades from {Warrior}
-0.30 {Boss} crushes {Warrior} for {too much}
-0.00 {Warrior} dies.
That, I think, is the appeal to passive uncrushability. Becoming passively uncrushable against dual-weilders seems like an obvious choice to me. Going for passively uncrushable against others I do not think is neccessary. On bosses who are likely to crush, but do not dual-weild, you can have a Paladin or Druid do the tanking.

veneretio
12-06-2007, 12:37 PM
Yes, but what fights in particular do you believe it's useful for? (example: Prince... although I'd hope a set comprised of t5 items would give us some edge against more than t4 bosses)

Horgar
12-06-2007, 01:08 PM
What fights make it worth the significant Armor/Stamina/Threat loss in order to utilize such a set?

Prince malch is my goal right now to tank through easily. I'm working with mostly cruddy gear cuz I have horrible luck with kara drops, though. I can get 15k armor and 13k health even though I only have a few of the kara drops. I am building a set around passive uncrush (to dw mobs only) though to test that out... the avoidance will help with sunders *and* crushes.


The only other reason would be so we could be lazy...

veneretio
12-06-2007, 01:37 PM
The only other reason would be so we could be lazy...
See and this is what I'm talking about... is this the only reason?

The one firm truth I know about Passive Uncrushable is that if you aren't clearing ZA (or better content), it's not worth it because ZA gear is what you need in order to not make a terrible Passive Uncrushable set.

Is Passive Uncrushable just like the Maximum Block Value set? Is it just something to brag about with your tank friends? Is it just something to accomplish for the sake of saying you've accomplished something....

or does it matter?

I hope it does, but I'm still waiting for practical applications.

Fwip
12-06-2007, 01:40 PM
There's a couple of benefits:
1) Crush-immune no matter how fast the boss swings or how many mobs you are holding, which is a reduction in spike damage.
2) Since every attack made on you will be at worst a block, block value becomes a very effective means of predictably reducing incoming damage.
3) Farming becomes trivial when melee mobs can't hurt you (full block every swing).

That's not all of it, but those are the major points. Most of the time, you won't want to wear your passive set (opting instead for more threat generation or effective health). However, there are times that it becomes really handy to have one.

kryonik
12-06-2007, 01:52 PM
Couple things.

1) Not having to use Shield Block saves rage. More rage means more threat. The question here however, how much NET rage do you actually gain? You won't have to use Shield Block, but you will have such a high amount of avoidance, you won't be getting hit half the time, thus half the time you will have no rage incoming.
2) I would imagine that even if you were in the T6 passively uncrushable set, you would be sacrificing a significant amount of stamina in order to do so. I saw an Armory today of someone in a more or less, passively uncrushable set (he was in the vicinity of 95% total block/dodge/parry/miss unbuffed) however he only had ~15k hp unbuffed.
3) You will, for the most part, also be trading threat generating stats such as block value, hit rating, expertise, etc, in order to do so that your threat might also suffer. That's just the nature of item stat budgeting.

elio
12-06-2007, 01:55 PM
I can see it for bosses in Kara and ZA. But thereafter the obvious loss of stamina and armor will make bosses harder to tank as damage still comes in and in huge amounts at times. You will still have to have the amount of stamina to withstand a significant blow and not be insta-killed.

Bosses like Archimonde and Illidan don't crush but I can assure you it will very hard to find a tank that is succesfully tanking them in an uncrushable set that isnt full T6 and gemmed appropiately.

veneretio
12-06-2007, 03:59 PM
I understand the benefits, but solutions without problems aren't solutions really at all. I've editted my orginial post to include a boss list.

What I'm curious about is what actual boss fights is a Passive Uncrushable set worth it for?

Taelas
12-06-2007, 04:25 PM
Any boss that hits faster than once every 2.5 seconds.

Tharr
12-06-2007, 04:36 PM
Can't think of any boss where an uncrushable set would be a big enough advantage, hitting shield block once every 5 sec isn't really that hard, and isn't even needed on some bosses.

Syana
12-06-2007, 06:09 PM
I like to use uncrushable because I can.

ZA
Nalorakk - sometimes, EH set works too.
Akil'zon - yes
Jan'alai - yes
Halazzi - sometimes, EH set works too. I have also used avoidance.
Hex Lord Malacrass - shrug
Zul'jin - shrug

Tempest Keep
Al'ar - yes
Void Reaver - no, use threat set
High Astromancer Solarian - no, it doesn't matter
Kael'thas Sunstrider - shrug, probably not

SSC
Hydross the Unstable - no, use resist set.
The Lurker Below - yes, doesn't matter much.
Leotheras the Blind - no, use threat set
Fathom-Lord Karathress - haven't tried, use EH set.
Morogrim Tidewalker - haven't tried, use EH set.
Lady Vashj - no, use EH set.

Black Temple - Uhm.. I'll let you know when my guild decides to kill Kael.
High Warlord Naj'entus
Supremus
Shade of Akama
Teron Gorefiend
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Reliquary of Souls
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council
Illidan Stormrage

Hyjal
Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal
Azgalor
Archimonde

Tharr
12-06-2007, 06:39 PM
I'll make my own list :)

ZA - No real opinion since my gear is a bit overkill (mostly t6)
Nalorakk
Akil'zon
Jan'alai
Halazzi
Hex Lord Malacrass
Zul'jin

Tempest Keep
Al'ar - Uncrushable, but hitting shield block every cd works just fine, his crushes are quite weak
Void Reaver - Threat
High Astromancer Solarian - Threat
Kael'thas Sunstrider - Pure sta if you're tanking Kael'thas, threat for the rest

SSC
Hydross the Unstable - Resistance
The Lurker Below - Doesn't really matter
Leotheras the Blind - Threat
Fathom-Lord Karathress - EH, u'll get stunned and u don't want to die
Morogrim Tidewalker - EH with a bit avoidance, he hits like a truck and u will get healed alot
Lady Vashj - She doesn't hit very hard so threat with a bit avoidance for the Nagas in p2 and to shorten p3

Black Temple
High Warlord Naj'entus - hits slow and hard, so EH
Supremus - Threat since he resets aggro after each kite phase
Shade of Akama - Threat, u're only tanking normal mobs and those can't crush anyway
Teron Gorefiend - He hits slow and even harder then Naj'entus, so EH
Gurtogg Bloodboil - Threat but don't forget your stamina
Reliquary of Souls - Threat since it's a dps race and it doesn't hit very hard
Mother Shahraz - Can't crush but does alot of dmg, so EH with a bit of avoidance
Illidari Council - EH if u're tanking the paladin, he hits slow and hard and can't crush, dunno about the rest
Illidan Stormrage - Can't crush, avoidance with high stamina works great for his enrages in the last phase

Hyjal
Rage Winterchill - Threat, hit's like a baby and is casting alot
Anetheron - Could maybe (that's a big maybe btw) use an uncrushable set here, FR if u're tanking the Elementals
Kaz'rogal - He stuns so EH
Azgalor - He hits slow and hard and silences, so avoidance with high stamina works great
Archimonde - Can't crush, avoidance with high stamina for when your healers is feared

That's mostly how I gear for the bosses, 1 maybe (another big maybe) 2 bosses where I'd rather take an uncrushable set then my usual EH/avoidance sets.

Taelas
12-06-2007, 06:53 PM
Nalorakk can't crush, neither can Halazzi. Using uncrushable sets on them is kinda pointless.

Syana
12-06-2007, 08:04 PM
Except for the fact that every attack will be blocked for 600 damage.

Narshe
12-06-2007, 11:52 PM
My planned uncrushable gear have less parry and dodge than my current gear. So saying that an uncrushable gear have more avoidance than regular gear is not right. Uncrushable gears usually use a lot of block rating. Blocks gives u rage both from the unblocked damage and from the protection talent (pallies also get threat). The good thing about having an uncrushable gear is that there won't be any normal hits neither crushings. That is not only good for reducing spike damage, but it also gives A LOT mitigation.
You could argue with me: you will lose too much threat/ EH. But in my current gear I have enough EH for every boss in the current game, and I never had problems with aggro so.... why not aim for an uncrushable gear? Even for those bosses that doesn't crush, it's still mitigation, and probably more rage efficiency as you won't have to "lose" 10 rage each 5 seconds (or 7, I can't remember if SB gets -3 focused rage reduction).

Satrina
12-07-2007, 06:37 AM
I'd use passive uncrush so I can be lazy on Tidewalker and give the healers a break. It's easier to get passive uncrush against Leotheras because he dual wields, sure, but it is useful there for not worrying at all about shield block while running around after him. Since Al'ar is a taunt fight, it'd be a convenience if you wanted it. Not for Void Reaver since having the option of taking the occasional crush is good for your threat output. Bosses that don't crush - you'll still be at an absurdly high block chance.

There's nothing wrong with a passive uncrushable set; I'm working on one myself. It's just another tool in your arsenal. Having a passive uncrushable set that is going to be what you always wear would be just as silly as always wearing your avoidance, block, or max EH set.

I don't understand the whole stigma attached to passive uncrushability. Sure, passive uncrush is a mix of gear tradeoffs. So is every other gear set you put together. Sure it will be a lower unbuffed health than a full EH set. If you have no chance to take crushes, the maximum EH requirement for the fight went down.

Edit: There's also the fish eye lens effect. I know that I can't conceive of why Karazhan could possibly be hard as I remember it being at first. Same thing will happen to me once I'm in T6 looking back on SSC, I am sure. It's easy to say passive uncrush is useless when you outgear the places it'd be useful. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah, passive uncrush before t6 is a sin. You didn't have ZA.

Satrina
12-07-2007, 06:39 AM
Good point Narshe. At 97%, I'm at 44% block, 22% dodge, 18% parry, the rest miss. The remaining pieces I need are from ZA, which are fortified with block rating (and a bunch of stamina), not so much avoidance.

veneretio
12-07-2007, 06:58 AM
Ya I'm sure its going to be useful Satrina (part of the reason I made this thread is I wanted to find more on the topic to write about it), but I just feel that a few too many people seem to be making this big deal out of going for passive uncrushable when they've just killed Curator. (obvious exaggeration, but you get the point)

Satrina
12-07-2007, 07:04 AM
Excellent point - the zealous passive uncrush crowd is about as bad as the zealous anti-passive uncrush crowd.

I definitely understand your exaggeration =) Realistic passive uncrush is still beyond Karazhan, absolutely. It's not so far past Karazhan as some people still seem to think, now that ZA is here.

Taelas
12-07-2007, 08:22 AM
Except for the fact that every attack will be blocked for 600 damage.

Which probably won't offset the loss of EH.

Unless, naturally, you're massively overgeared for the encounter.

Sair
12-07-2007, 08:31 AM
Which probably won't offset the loss of EH.

Unless, naturally, you're massively overgeared for the encounter.

Like Satrinia said - when you remove the chances of getting crushed, you also lower the EH minimums for that fight.

Taelas
12-07-2007, 08:54 AM
Like Satrinia said - when you remove the chances of getting crushed, you also lower the EH minimums for that fight.

You completely missed the point. We are talking about fights where crushing blows are not a factor (specifically Nalorakk and Halazzi in Zul'Aman).

veneretio
12-07-2007, 09:36 AM
Excellent point - the zealous passive uncrush crowd is about as bad as the zealous anti-passive uncrush crowd.
See interestingly enough, I hadn't encountered too much anti-pc crowd and after frantically combing the net for as much info on passive uncrushable sets as possible, I realized that I needed some grounding b/c I felt I was slipping into the zealous pc crowd whereas I'd rather be in the middle.

This thread has been a big help so far and even if the set ends up just being a fantastic farming tool and potentially amazing for multi-tanking when combined with a shield spike... well then it's worth it. Another tool in our belt as you say.

I think it's safe to say it's only worth pursuing this set once you've milked ZA for all the avoidance heavy pieces you can get your hands on. The set should be very strong for a lot of slower, hard hitting bosses as well simply to remove the potential oops factor of parries.

So far, this is the list of bosses I'd say it's worth it for:

All of Kara
ZA (Eagle, Dragonhawk)
SSC (Lurker, Tidewalker)
TK (Al'ar)
BT (High Warlord Naj'entus?)
Hyjal (Anetheron, Azgalor?)

Paruhdox
12-07-2007, 09:41 AM
the only thing about passive uncrushable sets is if you have a solid dodge and parry you can still be starved for rage even on fights like teron gorefiend. is saving that 10 rage and not having to shield block going to make up for the loss in threat?

glinn
12-07-2007, 09:53 AM
I consider passive uncrashability as a goal like 75% mitiagation by armor. I dont see passive uncrushabilty as being lazy but as strategy to gain large returns in mitigation.

Right now I am at 61% armor mitiagation and around 450 damage blocked. With shield block up I am generally mitigationg 5-15% of incoming damage. Total shield block mitiagtion percentage is of course dependant on the incoming hit. The slower harder hitters being around 5% and the faster softer hits around 15%. Conseravatively even at 3% of total damage mitigation by shield block, I would need 3,000 more armor to get the same effect. Going by the 5-20% that would be quivalant to 5,000-15,000 more armor. Unless rage is to low or my threat is slacking off I usually keep SB all the time.

Of course I am personaly dealing witht theory <shrugs> maybe some day I will know for sure.

Wartorn
12-07-2007, 10:10 AM
the only thing about passive uncrushable sets is if you have a solid dodge and parry you can still be starved for rage even on fights like teron gorefiend. is saving that 10 rage and not having to shield block going to make up for the loss in threat?

You actually save less than that because you gain 1-2 rage from blocking.

IMO, passive uncrush is always better than EH sets, provided that you easily meet the minimum EH requirements for the fight.

Satrina
12-07-2007, 11:51 AM
the only thing about passive uncrushable sets is if you have a solid dodge and parry you can still be starved for rage even on fights like teron gorefiend. is saving that 10 rage and not having to shield block going to make up for the loss in threat?

I have less dodge and parry in my near-passive uncrush set than I do in my balanced gear set that I wear for most stuff. More than in full EH of course, and obviously less than in full avoidance. It's really heavy on block rating.

Kazeyonoma
12-07-2007, 04:05 PM
I gotta agree with Satrina in that having a crush immune set where sbr is your primary stat stacked would not encourage rage starvation of any sort. Of course you'd lose EH, there's no arguing that, but being able to completely remove the chance of taking a crushing blow will simplify the fight to possibly enough of an extent that it is better off. I talked to one of my guild's primary healers about passive uncrushability and he said that, when things are rolling smoothly and the steady stream of healing is coming, there are truly only a few things that can happen that will throw off this smoothness, and the biggest one is a leaked crushing blow. So from a healing standpoint, it definitely is an advantage.

Horgar
12-08-2007, 11:35 AM
I'd definitely lean toward block rating for any passive uncrush set. One confusion people might have is that a "passive uncrush" set is the same as stacking avoidance. But if you're stacking shield block rating you aren't avoiding the dmg you're just pushing crushes off the table. The upside is block ratings high rate of return makes it take a lot less item budget to reach the goal and so you don't have to give up nearly as much EH as you would with a heavy def/parry/dodge set.

Foolishness
12-10-2007, 08:53 AM
I am starting to eat into my passive uncrushability with my gear which i use for tanking the hard hitting bosses (ie. tidewalker). If i wanted to, i believe i could re socket my gear and change a few pieces to become crush immune. However i don't think this would be optimal (because of the reducution of stam), and i look at crush immunity as more of a bonus than a focus. I am hoping with more upgrades, I'll become crush immune without sacrificing my other stats.

Kavtor
12-10-2007, 10:41 AM
S
So far, this is the list of bosses I'd say it's worth it for:

All of Kara
ZA (Eagle, Dragonhawk)
SSC (Lurker, Tidewalker)
TK (Al'ar)
BT (High Warlord Naj'entus?)
Hyjal (Anetheron, Azgalor?)

Any fight that you out gear, you're probably leaning towards max threat to keep up with your DPS. Lurker and Tidewalker are certainly possible though, and dual wielding mobs would be a good choice.

Al'ar is better with EH / Avoidance mix, on the off chance your OT's all go own, and you have to eat the melt armours. Naj'entus you really want to minimize your damage taken, and maximize your threat, since DPS can unload pretty hard, and it's a pretty stressful fight for the healers.
Anetheron doesn't really matter gear wise, but Azgalor would be a poor choice. He's the first single target boss in quite some time that my healers have complained about the single target healing demands.

It would be a decent set for Hyjal trash tanking though. Just to reduce melee damage taken while tanking a bunch of mobs.

Belak
12-11-2007, 08:26 AM
This talk got me thinking.

If you wanted to create an "invulnerable" set for grinding outside of instances... could you do it before you could make an uncrushable set for bosses?

I'm trying to remember how the hit table changes for level 70 trash or elites vs. 73 bosses.

Is the only difference a lack of crushing blow in the hit table?

Has anybody tried this? Wondering how hard this would be. I can already handle all of the Temple of Karabor trainees in 1 pull thanks to the Figurine of the Colossus, but it would sure be fun to not even need that and just watch everything bounce off. :)

Marrick
12-11-2007, 08:30 AM
Lack of crushing blow and only 100% total avoidance+block needed instead of 102.4%. The biggest problem with that would be that your DPS would be -very- low. You could grind forever without stopping (potentially), but it would take you a lot longer to go through 10 mobs than if you grind with a DPS set.

Mordigen
12-11-2007, 11:18 AM
Someone that actually has one of these sets, is there anyway you can show this to me, or log out in it and let me know so I can look it up. I think I am far off from getting a set for this, and not really looking at it now since I am still trying to progress with my guild to higher raids anyways. I would like to know just for my own knowledge just how you built it that is all.

Alacastramos
08-06-2008, 10:12 AM
I think the gear I'm logged in is passively crush immune, unfortunately, I was grinding the numbers @ 2AM last night, so I could be completely wrong.

Frankly I didn't even realize I had it until a friend of mine asked me what my total avoidance was at. This assumes BoK, MOTW, and fort flask btw.

As you can see, I didn't sacrifice EH, but dodge is a very large factor in the total avoidance, so the set works fine in Sunwell, but I'll have to let you know after I run BT tonight just how little rage I have. I'm most likely going to ninja-swap me a TPS group set-up when no one's looking :P.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadowmoon&n=Alacastramos)

mero12513
08-06-2008, 10:30 AM
To Alacastramos: The set you are in now (with a base miss chance of 5%) is 102.48% avoidance + block. If you take 10,000 hits from a raid boss, you'd probably get crushed once or twice (if my math is right).

Alacastramos
08-06-2008, 10:34 AM
Uncrush is 102.4, so I'm .08% above.

C/D

And if I'm wrong, ++Scroll of Agility XD.

mero12513
08-06-2008, 10:36 AM
My memory for numbers has been terrible today...I should stop trying to correct people. Thanks though.

Alacastramos
08-06-2008, 11:05 AM
NP, I'm just glad someone else was able to check and reproduce my numbers.

Krashtork
08-06-2008, 11:15 AM
Where can we find uncrush sets? I keep hearing that ZA plays a large part of it and so i want to see what i need out of there. I'm rather intruiged. And also, no one has mentioned the possibility of throwing on a shield spike to help with the TPS. If you're pushing such a huge % of blocks a shield spike would add up quickly. Especially on trash like Hyjal.

Kazeyonoma
08-06-2008, 11:24 AM
uhh, check out tankingtips.com he reached uncrush with a set and even posted it.

It does however need to be tweaked because when he made it before, i think he was using the pre 2.4 malacrass helm which had sbr instead of defense.

Celandro
08-06-2008, 03:32 PM
For a lower set of gear that is also uncrushable with the right buffs/debuffs, can check my current armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cenarius&n=Celandro) (but substitute commendation for scarab of displacement)
Buffs required:
Imp Mark of the wild, blessing of kings, elixir of major agility and either grace of air totem or agility scroll/food + insect swarm or scorpid sting.
Or reenchant the chest with 15 def and wrist with 12def, grace of air and an agility scroll and you can wear commendation over the scarab of displacement

As for what bosses I use it on, supremus, archimode, bloodboil.

Kazeyonoma
08-06-2008, 04:32 PM
why would you wear an uncrushable set against archimond? he can't crush.

Anasurimbor
08-06-2008, 06:35 PM
And Supremus can't crush too.

Celandro
08-07-2008, 02:57 PM
Its for the avoidance not the crushability. The incoming damage in the set is extremely low. It happens to be uncrushable as a side effect. I was only posting it in this thread for reference.


And then i forget to log off in it :).
Gear (gem/enchant) is
Destroyer Greathelm (12def 10% block value, 10 dodge/17 dodge 16 def)
Darkener's Grasp
Pauldrons of Abyssal Fury (15dodge 10def)
Slikk's Cloak of Placation (12 dodge)
Chestplate of Stoicism (5agi 7 sta/150hp)
Eternium Shell Bracers (12 sta)
Onslaught Handguards (10 def/15agi)
Girdle of the Invulnerable (10dodge, 10 dodge)
Sunguard Legplates (10 dodge, 18sta/12 agi 40 sta)
Tide-Stomper's Greaves (10 dodge, 10 defense/9 sta run speed)
Band of the Eternal Defender
Ring of the Stalwart Protector
Empyrean Tortoise
Commendation of Kael'thas
Unbreakable Will (mongoose)
Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart (12 def/18 sta)
Rifle of the Stoic Guardian

The gear is not that unusual, simply gemed for dodge/defense and happens to be uncrushable with the right buffs/debuffs.

Edit: Forgot I had to change the socket in my chest to get my meta :) Still uncrushable as above.

uglybbtoo
08-07-2008, 08:20 PM
Are people still really playing around with this rubbish?

-Your threat suffers so the raid is gimped

-You take little damage till something goes wrong like a mob gets behind you or stuns you and then you get murdered

- You cant avoid alot of bosses special moves they are unresistable so you have to have an proper tank set anyhow.

Cant see the point really you have to have a true tank set anyhow why waste your time on this stuff unless you want to fraps some tricks.

Wear real tank gear let the healers do there job, dont gimp the raid dps and learn your trade, you are a meat shield you are meant to get hit.

Timetheos
08-08-2008, 01:52 AM
Are people still really playing around with this rubbish?

-Your threat suffers so the raid is gimped

-You take little damage till something goes wrong like a mob gets behind you or stuns you and then you get murdered

- You cant avoid alot of bosses special moves they are unresistable so you have to have an proper tank set anyhow.

Cant see the point really you have to have a true tank set anyhow why waste your time on this stuff unless you want to fraps some tricks.

Wear real tank gear let the healers do there job, dont gimp the raid dps and learn your trade, you are a meat shield you are meant to get hit.

It's always nice having another point of view to consider, and I'm all for a more thorough discussion. So thanks :)

I have a very wide spectrum of tanking sets, with pieces shared between them, and gems, enchants and shields varying from one to the other. I have a pure EH set, which doesn't come out very often. I have a pure avoidance set, which doesn't come out very often. My uncrushable set is probably the only one I use as much as my generic avoidance/stam raid trash set.

It's nice being invincible sometimes. It's nice having another option when it comes to soloing, even the occasional elite. It's nice being able to sprinkle in some BV and take on Arlokk or Garr or AQ40 anubites. It's a thrill reliably winning duels against warriors and rogues, sometimes without hitting them at all!

When it comes to raiding, in most situations, you're right in that rage is limited, and thus threat is too. When it comes to bosses' special abilities, it comes down to having a knowledge of what is effective (gear and otherwise) for each individual fight. Stuns? Again, fight knowledge. Mobs getting behind a tank? Unless all one has geared for is armor and health, this is a problem that would stalk all tanks. I've found that, at least for me, this usually comes down to reflex. I see a mob heading towards my back, I'll reposition. Walls are useful too. Mobs rarely cause me any trouble by getting behind me.

You said "learn your trade". I think that most tanks who can become passively uncrushable understand their trade sufficiently. It isn't something that happens by accident.

Uncrhushability isn't something that is necessary for raid tanking, or even recommended for most fights due to the tradeoffs in other stats. It'll become much less useful in WotLK. However, it's comforting to know that it's there.

Thanks again for your input :)


Also, Veneretio: what's the purpose of that list of bosses in your OP?

uglybbtoo
08-08-2008, 02:40 AM
Yep and you speak and act like a real tank ... and you are not whom my comments were aimed at.

Read some of the other comments and its like this is the holy grail of tanking and it's quite misleading to prospective newbie tanks and it shouldn't be in the "theory & articles" section it should be in a "tricks and toying around while bored" section.

My concern is newbie tanks who don't have as much knowledge as you would actually build this set first over the true EH tanking set they should be building first.

So if there are any moderators out there perhaps you might like to consider a new section or move this.

ebs2002
08-08-2008, 08:19 AM
It's hard to build this set as a newbie. Newbies don't have access to any of the gear that makes it possible.

Satrina
08-08-2008, 09:05 AM
Cant see the point really you have to have a true tank set anyhow why waste your time on this stuff unless you want to fraps some tricks.

Bloodboil stacks Acidic Wound (up to 99 times, -500 Armour, 100 damage/sec per stack.) See where a super high avoidance set like, say, an (near) uncrushable set might be a tiny bit useful? You will never be starved for rage/mana in this fight for not being hit often.

Supremus: Hits hard, likes to put handy fire nearby for you to stand in for rage.

Archimonde: See Supremus, but you're also stance dancing and so have berserker rage up often. And threat is pretty much a non-issue for the fight.

(Neither Archie or Supremus can crush, but that's not the point.)

And so on.

veneretio
08-08-2008, 09:07 AM
Also, Veneretio: what's the purpose of that list of bosses in your OP?
First.. wow holy thread necro batman.

The purpose of the list at the start was that at the time I wrote this thread the concept of passive uncrushable was all the rage. I loved it to as the OP said, but I also was skeptical. As cool as the concept is, I simply wanted people to lay out what bosses they'd actually use it on. To this day, I've never actually worn a passive uncrushable set on a boss, not once. I've wrote about it before on my site as more a proof of concept than anything else, but as I've said numerous times on podcasts, comments and articles... it's definitely something that I classify more in the cute toys for bored prot warriors than something to actually strive for.

As to uglybbtoo, the set is a tool. You aren't going to wear it on a fight you'd get stunned. Being able to save that 10 rage you used to constantly spend on shield block definitely improves your threat a bit too which will offset a portion of the lower threat generated by the set. Saying that you're dead if a mob gets behind you is downright foolish since when was the last time a boss got behind you? Just b/c you don't like a concept or understand the use of it doesn't mean it's bad and certainly there's no reason to be dis-respectful.

At this time, I still struggle to find a boss I'd actually go out of my way to use a passive uncrushable set on, but what I do know is that many warriors once they're ready for SWP end up hitting Passive Uncrushable virtually by accident just due to raw stats.

Alent
08-08-2008, 10:12 AM
Are people still really playing around with this rubbish?

everything has a place.

Maintankadin :: View topic - How to Solo Garr: A Guide for Warrior and Paladin Tanks (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=10033)

Daimon
08-08-2008, 12:17 PM
Are people still really playing around with this rubbish?

-Your threat suffers so the raid is gimped

-You take little damage till something goes wrong like a mob gets behind you or stuns you and then you get murdered

- You cant avoid alot of bosses special moves they are unresistable so you have to have an proper tank set anyhow.

Cant see the point really you have to have a true tank set anyhow why waste your time on this stuff unless you want to fraps some tricks.

Wear real tank gear let the healers do there job, dont gimp the raid dps and learn your trade, you are a meat shield you are meant to get hit.

Well, I'm not in the quest for uncrushability, I think a bit like you about the threat, and seen how incredibly fast increased the raid dps with the latest badge wellfare and high end instances, I do think that winning the race for threat makes dead bosses in many key events. I've test it and works rly well in my guild.
I am yet to see a reliable PC set in the early t4/t5/ZA, and forcing one in that raid contest (not looking down from T6/SWP gear) is not very advisable imo. However, at higher lvl PC is reachable w/o losing much EH, but isn't that the very meaning of escalating lvls of gear?

When you started KZ from dungeons you looked for def cap 490, and as much stam/arm ou could get, as you keep moving forward then Threat/Avoidance/higher EH appears as the loot improved, next frontier is PC, w/o loosing much of the previous mentioned stats.

Why to push in encounters you don't rly need PC? Subconsciously I always hit SB, no matter the fight, 5 rage is cheap and it doesn't mess with GC.
But let me ask, is not true that Revenge is tight to SB? so you will have less chance to use it if you solely depends on block rating, right?

"Oh but you have 2 charges of SB for few secs, when you lose them then you'd wish have a passive anticrush set ;)"
Not rly, only when i've been rly lazy or sleepy or terribly unlucky is when i've had a crush, and who cares, my stam is high and healers are good. And what's the fun on take away a little of randomness to the game (BWL: Razorgore ring a bell?), is a game remember, is not a mathemathical equation the one who tanks, it is you.

uglybbtoo
08-10-2008, 07:23 PM
everything has a place.

Maintankadin :: View topic - How to Solo Garr: A Guide for Warrior and Paladin Tanks (http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=10033)


You quoted the first line try three down

"Cant see the point really you have to have a true tank set anyhow why waste your time on this stuff unless you want to fraps some tricks."

That would be a trick to fraps :)

Alent
08-10-2008, 07:37 PM
Because filling up your harddrive with a 4 hour video is going to impress people. :)

veneretio
08-10-2008, 10:34 PM
You quoted the first line try three down

"Cant see the point really you have to have a true tank set anyhow why waste your time on this stuff unless you want to fraps some tricks."

That would be a trick to fraps :)
You are a Paladin. It's for Warriors. Happy now?

Alent
08-10-2008, 11:11 PM
I find it truly sad that someone feels the need to attack a proof of concept.

I can think of three places off the top of my head where I want my paladin to be passive uncrush and it has nothing to do with Garr.

Most specifically: Dragonhawk adds, Tidewalker adds, and clearing the entirety of black morass in a single pull because someone needs more knothide leather/netherweb spider silk.

Taelas
08-10-2008, 11:55 PM
I find it truly sad that someone feels the need to attack a proof of concept.

I can think of three places off the top of my head where I want my paladin to be passive uncrush and it has nothing to do with Garr.

Most specifically: Dragonhawk adds, Tidewalker adds, and clearing the entirety of black morass in a single pull because someone needs more knothide leather/netherweb spider silk.

Last thing is also the single biggest level booster there is. 10,000 XP per minute, unrested. :p Unfortunately you have to be level 66 and have completed the Durnholde main quest.

Daimon
08-11-2008, 05:28 AM
...

I can think of three places off the top of my head where I want my paladin to be passive uncrush and it has nothing to do with Garr.

Most specifically: Dragonhawk adds, Tidewalker adds, and clearing the entirety of black morass in a single pull because someone needs more knothide leather/netherweb spider silk.

Those are 70+/71+ mobs, you shouldn't be crushed by them.

phaze
08-11-2008, 06:06 AM
Those are 70+/71+ mobs, you shouldn't be crushed by them.
Replace 'Uncrushable' with 'Guaranteed Block', to adjust the semantics towards his goal. ;)

Alent
08-11-2008, 01:03 PM
Phase has it right. Guaranteed Block is synonymous with Passive uncrush. :)

Timetheos
08-26-2008, 03:57 AM
Let's start with the easy one: definitely not Hydross.

Alo
09-04-2008, 08:22 PM
On the bright side, people who arent tanking mobs 4 lvls higher of them can basically ignore that goal now, if they currently wanted to do it (why, as the title asks..?)