View Full Version : Help with tankin Kara
12-05-2007, 07:00 PM
I really could use some advice on tanking kara. I'm starting to learn the fights and doing ok with the first three bosses. But the weird part is I'm having troubles with the trash pulls.
Here is my build
My rotation is pretty basic
1. pull with a gun.
2. pop BloodRage
3. Devastate till I get 3 sunders on the skull
4. tab to next mob drop a Devastate
5. thunderclap ( if out of range of the CC'd mobs )
6. switch back to skull and button mash what ever isn't on cooldown ( shieldslam, revenge, etc
Two problems that I have..
1. it seems to take me longer to generate threat on the skull than other tanks I've run with.
2. I sometimes lose the second tank target. Normally runs for the healer. I have to use intercept to get the mob back.
I believe the problems are in my rotation.
12-06-2007, 12:38 AM
Ok well here's my thoughts..
For starters, ive tanked all through kara many times, and there really shouldnt be any time where you should have to tank more than 1 mob with the exception of a few pulls. There should always be an offtank in the raid to take care of the extra mob that isnt being cc'd by the other raid members. But in any case where you are forced or attempting to tank 2 mobs at once (i will refer to the secondary target as X), its better to start out with a thunderclap rather than sundering the skull target since thunderclap will apply a decent amount of threat on both targets. Now as long none of the dps'ers in the raid hit X, your thunderclap should be enough to hold X on you until you get time to apply more threat. Now cleave is going to help you a lot here. Cleave is a nice attack that will help keep X on you while you apply threat to skull. So after the opening thunderclap, put about 3-5 sunders (whichever your more comfortable with) on skull while throwing in a cleave here and there. Once you have sundered skull, switch to X and sunder him up. Now depending on your dps'ers, you may not even have time to do all of this before skull is dead, but for starting guilds that are just starting to raid kara it should work nicely. So to cap it all off i'll post my usual rotations for tanking single/boss and multiple targets.
1. BloodRage (i like to do this first cuz it gives you a few more seconds to get rage before being hit)
2. pull with ranged wep (or just run in on a boss)
3. 5 sunders
4. from this point just mash the high threat causing attacks (heroic strike, shield slam, and revenge) while throwing in a devastate here and there to keep the sunder timer up. Tossing up thunderclap and/or demo shout doesnt hurt either.
2. 3-5 sunders on skull (cleave when possible)
3. switch to X and apply 3-5 sunders
4. back to skull
5. finish off keeping the sunders up and using the threat building attacks and throwing in cleaves to keep threat going on X
Well I hope this has helped you. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
12-06-2007, 03:47 AM
Wow. Um, that's a lot of sundering early.
I Shot-pull, bloodrage once I'm targeted, and open with Shield Slam for the burst threat. Then I start with the Devastates. I Shield Slam on cooldown and Revenge/Devastate whenever they're up, and Heroic Strike only comes in at high rage levels. I do wear a threat set composed of block value pieces for trash. This usually starts me off running with over 2k threat as soon as the mob makes melee contact, and keeps me sufficiently ahead of DPS.
Honestly, I've never had trouble holding a secondary target over healer aggro with nothing but TC, Cleave, and a little Demoralizing shout. It's just a matter of repeatedly using them. Sometimes I pull the secondary target, Shield Slam it, and then switch to the primary and devastate until Shield Slam is back up, then Slam it, but I rarely need to do this.
12-06-2007, 05:16 AM
First of all: a loss of aggro is not a thing a tank has to be ashamed of nor a thing that would indicate his or her incompetence. On the contrary - that's part of the fun.
Most trash mobs are tauntable so unless you're a lazy player it shouldn't take too long to aggro the mob again.
I appreciate DPSers that nuke half finished trash off of me and are capable to finish the mob off. That just shows I'm with good DPSers.
Losing aggro is usually becoming annoying when you have to run a lot after the mobs while they hit everybody else but you.
A typical situation where DPSers let you not one second to aggro the mob is with cc'd mobs. As soon as you break the cc most DPSer just go full blast. It's just the way they are. You could keep taunt on cooldown, skill all rage saving talents and try to tank the mob. What I usually do is just switch to bersek stance and DPS along. Most of the time a rogue would aggro and either evade tanks it, gets healed or gets killed. Big deal.
Another situation is a multitanking scenario like the one you described. What I do is announcing via ts / vent when the DPS is allowed to commence. I always use the same word ('attack'), I always ask a premature DPSer immediately why he or she is already DPSing and I always tell the raid what target to attack next. The reason is I rarely use SA / devastate in multitanking but just one heroic srtike on the skull and then cleave, demoshout, thunderclap when appropriate while I use revenge whenever it is up. So obviously early DPS would lead to aggro loss.
To sum it up tanking I found out to be not just the tank's job as DPSing is not just the DPSers' job. Try to guide your raid a bit on their DPS - be articulate about it. Repetitiveness worked best for me. There may be ways that work better for others...
Hoping that helps you a bit...
12-06-2007, 05:28 AM
If I know I am tanking 2 mobs from the beginning, I will usually try to range pull the second target, then switch to the first, drop a thunderclap when they are in range, or if there is an issue with CC, I will at least get a demo shout up. Then probably a shield slam on the first target, get 3 sunders on him so dps can open up, maybe a cleave after that. Then I would switch to second get a few sunders then back to first and rotate cleave and shield slam, and maybe a sunder to keep it up. Most of the times they will have the mob down pretty low health and I will switch to the second mob and start tanking that one, but only do that if you know you have good aggro on the first one, or you are certain your raid is okay with it.
Sorry I use sunder still, but I mean devastate now.
12-06-2007, 06:46 AM
ty mordigen i was thinking i was the only person to start with the secondary target.
I generally shoot x, generally he gets to me first and i will devastate/sunder him once. by then skull is within range and i proceed to gen agro in the usual manner. for me that is 3xdev,ss,rev,etc. throwing in cleaves in place of hs.
i have had alot of luck pulling the offtank mob. having him get to me 1 sec before the kill target gives me the time i need to sunder him once. i have never been a fan of thunderclap it is very rage expensive. i may be wrong it not using it however that is simply my playstyle.
agro to your second mob should only come from healing. agro to your first mob comes from your dps. it takes far less threat to keep him off the healer. therefor far less time. one devastate almost always does that for me. and the dps is alot easier to "throttle" than your healing agro.
my main is a mage. and playing my mage in pug heroics has shown me some behavior that i exibit. i find myself gauging when to dps not by watching for sudners, etc. but more the feel i get for the tanks abilities. a good tank i can start to dps right when the mob gets to him. a bad tank i may wait a second. the first few pulls of any run you get the feel for how hard and how fast you can go. if i need to wait a second for you to get to skull i can feel that alot easier than i can feel you removing your attention from him for a second after you have already started. generally dps will wait to start but will not give you any leway once you have started.
if they see you need a sec to start generating agro that is far better IMO then seeing you not gen agro fast enough to keep up with them
12-06-2007, 06:55 AM
Whats all this talk about sunder? Aren't you prot tanks? Devastate ftw.
For huge front end agro, SS then Dev 5x. or SS, Dev 3x, SS, Dev 2x
12-06-2007, 01:05 PM
I am just old and forget to update my vocabulary to devastate, so use to voice chat "wait for the sunders", old habit, sorry.
12-06-2007, 01:12 PM
I put points into imp thunderclap for the 4 rage reduction and the increased damage and reduced speed. It helps some to slow down attacks and thus lower dps on me. That is usually exactly what I do for multi mobs, shoot the X get a DEVASTATE in then switch to main target and it seems to work good to get a start going.
I almost forgot to throw in, I do believe with imp thunderclap, the thunderclap would cause more threat than the a single devastate or at least close to it but on multiple targets, but then once you get a few sunder debuffs up, the threat from devastate increases.
12-06-2007, 01:24 PM
In heroics With imp thunderclap if I spam that every time it's available I can overcome healing agro. DPSers will need to focus fire but the healer won't be the one who pulls them off me.
Not much need for multiple target tanking in all of kara though. Just in the huntsmens area really. I just leave target 2 & 3 for the second tank to pickup. Once they kill the #1 target I taunt #3 off the other tank.
Easier for the second tank to get agro on the second two mobs that no one else is touching and let the first tank ramp up the threat on the first target.
12-06-2007, 01:33 PM
I am lucky and usually get 2 shackles in Attunmans area, so there is only the last pull that has extra mobs, but even if I only have 1 shackle, I target a horse for kill, range pull one of the undead humans to hold, and then switch to the horse and then have the second tank grab the other horse and undead human, then we kill both horses first, then my second mob, then the OTs second mob, and I will pick up the last mob while that one is going down. I don't count the mass of dancers that are not elite, just thunderclap and switch targets often while devastating and let the aoe classes take them down. Not much more for multi tanking there.
i'm fortunate to have a hunter in many of my parties (esp 10 toon) and when tanking 2 mobs an MD on either one while pulling the other is helpful. Otherwise I do the TC/Devaste rotation with SS as available while tabbing between the mobs.
12-28-2007, 02:51 AM
I never target anything other than the skull. To hold multiple mobs i spam TC, DS and cleave while I shield slam and devestate the skull. I find that if you ever try to change target and fire up a few sunders on anything else other than the skull there is always the chance of losing agro on the skull as dps soon build up threat. I never struggle for rage so continuous cleaves, ds's and tc's are no problem.
03-07-2008, 01:43 PM
There are some good macros available that let you apply threat-producing attacks to mobs you're mousing over without shifting off of your targeted mob. Its ideal for multi-tanking situations. Also, you might want to think about starting off your fight with Shield Slam - it generates more threat than anything else you can do out of the gate and gives you a head start if you've got your dps trained to watch for the two or three stack devastate.