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Kahael
12-03-2007, 06:47 PM
So I finally got my Pepes cloak in Hyjal and I was just wondering what would be the optimal enchant for it, 12agi or 120 ac? Thank you

Cairn
12-03-2007, 07:30 PM
All of sort of tank take +12 agi or +12 dodge on cloak .


Armor is a fake enchant for me , mitigation around 0.5% ... it's a joke dude :X

Horgar
12-03-2007, 09:20 PM
Armor

veneretio
12-03-2007, 09:48 PM
120 Armor definitely.

Thalruin
12-03-2007, 10:10 PM
Armor.

Narshe
12-03-2007, 10:37 PM
All of sort of tank take +12 agi or +12 dodge on cloak .
Armor is a fake enchant for me , mitigation around 0.5% ... it's a joke dude :X
0.5% mitigation is HUGE. Only get agi or dodge if you are aiming for uncrushable gear.

DeeWood
12-04-2007, 05:01 AM
Think of it in terms of Diminishing returns, if your at 15K plus the 120 armor isn't going to see much of a difference for you, I would thus go with 12 agi or Dodge,

faitas
12-04-2007, 05:26 AM
armor
put dodge on your avoidance gear set or when you are trying to get uncrushable gear like narshe said

if you say that 120 armor isn't much of a difference it's because you really don't know what you are talking about
there is no use in having more dodge when there is always a chance for you not to dodge and die

fentnoob
12-04-2007, 05:35 AM
To pp7: saying "diminishing returns" clouds the issue a bit here. Your point might stand on its own - but as much of the work on effective health points out mitigation per sec due to ac diminishes while "the amount of time required to go from full HP to dead" does not (The Mathematics of Armour and Diminishing Returns).

To op: I always go for +ac to cloak and here's why: as a prot warrior armor is one of, if not the hardest stat to maximize. Really short on avoidance? Switch to your avoidance gear. Or you could pop some dodge/parry gems in place of a solid star or two (or better yet farm sl or cot:bm and get the dodge/parry + stam gems that match red sockets). Comparatively, there is no easy fix for armor.

edited: to indicate pp reply was to poster #7.

Dots
12-04-2007, 07:05 AM
0.5% mitigation would indeed be huge, but 120 AC isn't even close to that number. Compared to the other options, it is quite a trashy enchant.
I have 12 agility on my 34010 because it is threat oriented gear. For pure tanking, 33593 is the best cloak in the game, enchanted with 12 dodge. 120 AC would work too if you are a big EH fan, but it really is an inferior enchant for tanking stats. EH is often overrated around here.

Beertap
12-04-2007, 07:24 AM
If you've gotten Pepe's Shroud of Pacification then you're at the point where very marginal increases in armor won't do much. I personally sit at 17688 armor, and I have +12 Dodge Rating on my Slikk's Cloak of Placation. The amount of mitigation I get from +120 Armor is so low at this point, that +12 Dodge Rating or +12 Agility is better. At around 14k~15k I found Armor to be superior, but once you go over 17k~17.5k you'll start getting less and less.

EH is good and all, but one should never go all out and stack 100% EH. Once you hit a certain gear level, it's wiser to start balancing out between EH, threat (very important) and avoidance.

Kalahad
12-04-2007, 07:34 AM
120 Armor is the superior choice here. I really don't understand the arguments people are making here against it. No matter how much armor you have, more isn't going to really hurt. The whole "But I have 18000 armor, whats 120 more?" is no different from "But I have 300 armor, whats 120 more?" as it gives the same benefit

Beertap
12-04-2007, 07:58 AM
At 17688 Armor -> 17808 Armor, the +120 Armor gives about 0.16% mitigation on a level 73 Boss.

The +12 Dodge rating provides me with 0.63% to Dodge.

veneretio
12-04-2007, 08:05 AM
At 17688 Armor -> 17808 Armor, the +120 Armor gives about 0.16% mitigation on a level 73 Boss.

The +12 Dodge rating provides me with 0.63% to Dodge.
Armor works all of the time. Dodge is chance. I prefer to add less random factors to an already random game.

Aradon
12-04-2007, 02:44 PM
At 17688 Armor -> 17808 Armor, the +120 Armor gives about 0.16% mitigation on a level 73 Boss.

The +12 Dodge rating provides me with 0.63% to Dodge.

That's exactly how I used to think. Then I realized a few things which became really apparent as my guild moved into t6 content over the last two weeks.

You'll get to a point where holding aggro becomes just as important as staying alive. In T4 and T5 stuff yea you need to hold aggro, but as long as you've got a few good dpsers able to pull 1k and everyone else is 750+ you'll be fine, and that's really easy to hold aggro over. I used to like seeing dodges and parries knowing that I'm not taking damage. Now I hate it, no rage means I can't use more aggro generating moves and make it really hard to keep shield block up at the same time.

Brucimus
12-04-2007, 03:43 PM
I think 12Agil the Best choice ...12Agil adds a small amount of Armor, Helps Crit and Dodge. If the Armor enchant was more like 400 instead of 120...I would aggree. But 12Agil seems more useful

Dots
12-04-2007, 04:36 PM
Armor works all of the time. Dodge is chance. I prefer to add less random factors to an already random game.

So 1AC is > 99% dodge then? I don't think so.

Aradon is right that threat matters more in T6 content, which is why I would put 12 agility on Pepe's. But there are still plenty encounters where you want to go for maximum survivability, especially while learning them.

Driggan
12-04-2007, 05:17 PM
So 1AC is > 99% dodge then? I don't think so.


Honestly, what kind of comparison is that? It's not like you'll ever be making that kind of decision in gear.

120 armor is perfectly fine, and helps survivability in it's own way with tanking bosses, since all tanks get hit streaks eventually. The tank who can actually survive those hit streaks is better than the tank who takes less damage but dies, because while one of these tanks costs more mana, the other tank costs a wipe.

Honestly, neither enchant is big enough to make a huge difference, but on your gear as a whole if you just stack dodge too much then a couple hits in a row will be the end. And during those long 10 minute fights, I see it happening all the time.

That's not to say you don't want the dodge or agility enchant, because there ARE fights where you want as much avoidance as physically possible, especially on fights where threat isn't an issue. 120 armor just helps on those fights where you need both threat AND survivability.

Atomsk
12-04-2007, 05:27 PM
12 agi is my choice, honestly. its a little ac, a little dodge, and a little crit. Its the all around cloak enchant, imo. All 3 help your tanking.

Dots
12-04-2007, 05:44 PM
Honestly, what kind of comparison is that? It's not like you'll ever be making that kind of decision in gear.

It's about as useful as the line I quoted in my previous reply.
120 AC might help you in a bad situation, but avoidance goes a long way to prevent these situations in the first place. Simply saying avoidance is always worse because you get into bad situations anyways doesn't really cut it.

Link
12-04-2007, 09:00 PM
Avoidance is nice as a sugar coating. As you upgrade your gear, avoidance will come prepackaged. I was never a big fan of gearing specifically for avoidance because no matter how much you get, you cannot RELY on it.

I tank 25 man bosses and my healers spam me non stop, avoidance doesn't do much but cause overhealing.

Think of a tank that sacrifices damage reduction for avoidance. Eventually you'll get to the point where you are an absolute nightmare to heal. You either avoid the damage completely or take a nice big chunk of damage quickly. Healers hate healing tanks when they see this happening. They don't really get the option of canceling heals. They pretty much have to spam. So all that avoidance you've built up isn't doing anything.

What a main tank should strive to do is not only funnel as much incoming damage through him as he can, but gear himself so that this damage happens in a consistent manner. Spike damage sucks. The best tanks in the game have found ways to manage almost all forms of spike damage save one.. and blizzard recently introduced weapon expertise in order to help them solve the one last source of spike damage. :)

Narshe
12-04-2007, 10:20 PM
120 Armor is the superior choice here. I really don't understand the arguments people are making here against it. No matter how much armor you have, more isn't going to really hurt. The whole "But I have 18000 armor, whats 120 more?" is no different from "But I have 300 armor, whats 120 more?" as it gives the same benefit
It's not the same. 120 armor increase for a 1k armor guy provides, how much? 3-4% of damage reduction? At 18k, increasing 120 armor is less than 0.1% or likely.

Brucimus
12-04-2007, 10:29 PM
I understand that some of you are devout EH fanatics ...but come on!...120 out of 17K is such a small number

Razmo
12-05-2007, 12:32 AM
yeah when you are in kara the 120 armor is nice (got it aswell on my badge cloak) but when you are raiding MH and BT i'd rather take dodge or agi.

Syana
12-05-2007, 12:41 AM
120 Armor on Slikk's Cloak of Placation and 12 dodge rating on Phoenix-Wing Cloak.

Now shut up and go tank shit.

Horgar
12-05-2007, 01:59 AM
The Mathematics of Armour and Diminishing ReturnsTitle (http://evilempireguild.org/guides/diminishmath.php)

+120 armor gives about the same benefit when you are sitting at 18000 armor as it does when you're at 15000. It's *slightly* less. Adding +120 to 18000 reduces incoming dmg by around 0.43%. Adding it to 15000 armor reduces incoming dmg by around 0.47%. This is vs .63% dodge. So if you'd pick it when in kara I don't see why you wouldn't still pick it later on. Most avoidance shows a bigger "in the long run" mitigation but if you stack avoidance over armor/stam you risk dying to spike dmg.

Avoidance is a fluff benefit for most fights. If your healers are running OOM cuz the MT is draining them find ways to increase raid dps first, put on more avoidance second. Exceptions to this would be fights where a stacking or nasty melee applied debuff is used that can be dodged or parried.

Naka
12-05-2007, 02:28 AM
I'll never understand why people tend to speak in absolutes. It depends. It always depends.
It depends on your gear, your playing style, your team, and, of course, it depends particularly on the opponents you're about to fight. Plus maybe other factors i forgot.

So,

- if your healers complain: "you take too much spike damage!" - take armor
- if they complain: "you suck too much mana!" - take dodge
- if your DDlers complain:"we need to hold back!" - take agility
- if you're a progressive raider, and are about to fight new bosses soon which you don't know how hard they hit - take armor
- or you already know how hard they hit, but you feel your Effective Health is sufficient - take dodge
- if you're rather a casual gamer and think you'lll get geared right soon enough for new fights either way - take the one that makes you feel best, or that best fits your character

... and so on


PS: My first post on this great forum, though i'm reading it for a while. Hello all, it's good to be here. :)
Hope my english is understandable.

Narshe
12-05-2007, 03:17 AM
Your first post is indeed a great post. Talking in absolutes 120 armor would always be better than dodge or agi but as you say, it always depend on the rest of gear and raid setup.

I have Dodge rating in all my cloaks because:
- I already have enough EH for my fights.
- My agro is perfectly fine, I've never heard of any guild member holding back his dps.
- I'm aiming for a uncrushable gear.

Btw, armor is the cheapest of all enchants, so if I were you, I would take armor xDDD

Dots
12-05-2007, 07:17 AM
Indeed it depends, and since OP is obviously at tier 6 gear level, he should use 12 dodge on a tanking cloak. For Pepe's, 12 agility would still be better for the added crit.

Stiffypants
12-07-2007, 03:16 PM
I agree with Naka. There are too many inconsistent variables to say this is what it is, has been, and will be. The way they broke it down is perfect.

And veneretio, right on! I get fed up with the randomness of avoidance. I HAD close to 550 def (30%+ block, 25%+ dodge, 20%+ parry) and I always managed to get a quick hit for 15k dmg! That is all it takes is 1 hit to kill when your luck is off. But, if you reduce the incoming damage accordingly then the spike hits hit for a lot less. Not to mention, when you dodge, block and parry...you do not gain rage. To gain rage you must be hit. To survive the hit you must reduce incoming damage. I have to tank heroics in 1/2 prot 1/2 dps gear just to build rage. Otherwise I lose aggro and ppl die. I am sure most of you would understand the feeling of utter failure to wipe in a heroic 5-man when you stomping SSC and TK.
If you are somehow low on dodge (less than 20%), then I would get dodge.
Otherwise, I am with the crowd saying armor because every little bit less damage taken is our friend. We may be meat shields, but we are not invincible nor masters of luck. =)
Just my opinion based on information I have gathered over time...