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Vaalin
11-28-2007, 07:36 PM
I havent seen anyone talkin about this comparison yet...kinda astounded actually. I can't quite figure out how much bv is too much to lose to gain expertise...A good comparison is the kara bracers(33 bv), vs the new badge bracers. Is losing 33 bv worth that much expertise? if so, how much would be too much bv?

Ceravantes
11-28-2007, 09:20 PM
There are only so many Expertise pieces available, there is not a single one available to me (5/6 3/4) that i would not take over any piece of gear with BV on it.

veneretio
11-28-2007, 11:12 PM
The Badge bracers are a big upgrade over Attunemen's in Armor, Defense and Threat.

Based on Gingamok’s Rule of Thumb.
0.6-0.7% hit = 1% crit = 29 block value = 49 AP
0.65% hit = 29 BV
1% hit = 44.6 BV
3.8 Expertise = 1 Skill = .5% hit
7.8 Expertise Rating = 44.6 Block Value

Finelle
11-29-2007, 12:14 AM
I looked at Fortifications but I didn't see the section you used. Could you please quote the relevant portion?

veneretio
11-29-2007, 07:09 AM
I looked at Fortifications but I didn't see the section you used. Could you please quote the relevant portion?
You are right I checked it too. I could have sworn that's where I got it. My mistake and I'll edit my previous post to amend that. The following is what I was referring to:

Gingamok’s Rule of Thumb.
0.6-0.7% hit = 1% crit = 29 block value = 49 AP

Razmo
11-29-2007, 07:24 AM
implemented expertise: 0.6-0.7% hit = 4,94 expertise = 1% crit = 29 block value = 49 AP

Finelle
11-29-2007, 08:38 PM
Hmm...

Assume 1% hit=1% extra TPS. (the actual increase is very slightly larger)

1 Expertise Skill = 0.25% (dodge) + 0.25 (parry) = 0.5%

2 Expertise Skill = 1%

3.8 Expertise Rating = 1 Expertise Skill

Therefore 7.6 Expertise Rating = 1% hit

Assuming average TPS of 700 (taking example of Premonition's tank core)

7.6 Expertise Rating = 15.8 Hit Rating = 7 TPS

Assume Expertise does not negate more than 5% dodge from bosses (because they have more parry than dodge, hence the softcap is at 20 Expertise Skill).

6 Block Value = 1 TPS (slightly overestimated due to lag and other human error)

Therefore 1% hit = 42 Block Value

Accounting for Shield Mastery:

42 / 1.3 = 32.3

1 Hit Rating = 32.3/15.8 = 2.044 Shield Block Value
1 Expertise Rating = 32.3/7.6 = 4.25 Shield Block Value

Using above metric on Vambraces of Courage vs Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx:

Raw Stat Difference on switching from Vambraces:

+12 stamina
+22 Expertise Rating
+8 Defense Rating
-1 Yellow Socket
-2 Dodge Rating (Socket Bonus)
-33 Shield Block Value

Assume 8 Hit gem in socket for threat.

Threat Comparison

22 Expertise Rating = 93.5 SBV

8 Hit Rating = 16.352 SBV

Vambraces of Courage = 49.352 SBV equivalent.
Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx = 93.5 SBV equivalent.

There is no question as to which has more EH. In addition the Expertise is Avoidance Equivalent.

Nilya
12-01-2007, 04:46 AM
After I switched the Kara bracers out for Phanlanx, my threat definitely went up. I'd take expertise over block value in the limited cases where it becomes a choice to make.

Vaalin
12-01-2007, 10:05 AM
Wow guys, thanks for the awesome responses..especially finelle and ven, I was lookin for the actual numbers for this but couldn't find them anywhere!

Crimsonstorm
12-03-2007, 10:33 AM
Finelle's numbers are correct (1 hit rating is about 2 block value, 1 expertise is about 4), for threat purposes.

The other thing undervalues block value by about 50%.

Block value aslo has value in mitigation. I tend to value hit rating and block value about the same, and expertise is twice as good as that.

So both Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx and Brooch of Deftness > choices before BT/Hyjal

Omeromuru
12-04-2007, 09:43 AM
Alright, I'm not sure if this is a stupid question or not...

but, I'm assuming that expertise doesn't block more, just causes more threat, correct?

like, if you had bracers that had the same amount of armor and stam and both had 20def, only 1 had 20 expertice and the others had about 30sbv, would you take the 30sbv for fights where you needed more mitigation?

Heartwood
12-05-2007, 07:32 AM
As I understand the recent changes you can look at Expertise as mitigation, but its not as direct a line of thought as AC or dodge/parry. When your target parries your attack, their swing timer gets reset. A couple of unfortunate parries by your target and a special attack can mean a damage spike and death to the tank. +Expertise --> less longterm damage and less damage spikes.

-Heartwood

Omeromuru
12-05-2007, 07:38 AM
Goodpoint... I'll have to look into that :P

thanks for the input! :D

Stiffypants
12-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Very informative. I have been debating expertise as well. I know that I definitely want to get the 2 badge pieces no question, but (unless I am wrong) you would want to keep the older pieces for additional mitigation if needed while working your way to BT and such, correct? Just essetially keep around 2-3 sets of gear to handle threat, health and avoidance. (and DPS if you ever get the urge to kill)

Horgar
12-11-2007, 05:33 PM
1 Hit Rating = 32.3/15.8 = 2.044 Shield Block Value
1 Expertise Rating = 32.3/7.6 = 4.25 Shield Block Value

Great. Is there a good way to work AP equivs in there? And maybe break it down to a grading system? I was originally figuring it with the rule of thumb posted above but that rule doesn't equal these numbers so I figured I was missing something. EDIT: Oh and crit too

for example (bumping up values double cuz AP is the lowest one extrapolated from below):

1 shield block rating = 2 pts
1 hit rating = 4.088 pts
1 expertise = 8.5
AP = ??
str = 2xAP (allowing people to account for the fact that kings/vitality makes it a bit more useful than just straight AP themselves)
crit rating = ??
Agi = ?? (~2/3 crit rating? again allowing for added benefits making it a bit more desirable on an equivilent scale)


EDIT now that i dont have ppl waiting for an instance... Above is Finnels chart and I'll just put one from gingamok or whichever the first one posted was. They're similar but not quite right on.
0.6-0.7% hit (.65%?) = 1% crit = 29 block value = 49 AP -- we'll take the 0.5% expertise = 1% hit from finel cuz it makes sense.
Also gona plug in wowwiki numbers for ratings -- 15.76 for 1% hit. and 15.76 for 1% expertise so 7.88 expertise = 15.76 hit

10.244 hit rating = 5.122 expertise rating = 22.08 crit rating = 33 agi = 29 block value = 49 ap = 24.5 str

Divide all into the highest one to get a point base.

1 hit rating = 4.78 pts
1 exp rating = 9.57 pts
1 crit rating = 2.22 pts
1 agi = 1.48 pts
1 block value = 1.69 pts
AP = 1 pt
STR = 2 pts (2.2 with vitality or kings - 2.42 with vitality and kings)

Finnelle posted he underestimated hit a bit and overestimated block a bit in his calcs which agrees with gingamokk. Now I'm going to use this point system for my threat gear decisions =) thanks and have a nice day.

Crimsonstorm
12-12-2007, 12:19 PM
A simple approximation that I use for the values of stats:

O = offensive benefit (threat generation)
D = defensive benefit (damage prevention through avoidance or mitigation)
S = stamina (or contribution to effective health equivalent to 1 stamina)


Stat Priority for various fights is:

Hard hitting Bosses where the mechanics of the fight give you a large threat lead, (like Magtheridon/Karathress): S > D > O

Hard hitting Bosses where threat is also important (like Gruul/Tidewalker): S > O > D

Bosses where surviving is not difficult (Void Reaver/Leotheras): O > S/D

Trash Mobs / 5 Mans: O > D > S


O (threat generation) is given by (rounded to easily calculatable numbers):

1 Weapon DPS = 3
Expertise = 2
Hit Rating = 1
Block Value = 1/2 (assuming shield mastery talent)
Str = 1/2
Crit = 1/2
Agi = 1/3
1AP = 1/5
Parry Rating = 1/10

I thus calculate Str at roughly 2.5 AP, since it is 2.42 with vitality + kings, and a tiny block value benefit.

D (mitigation/avoidance) is given by:

30 Armor = 1
1 Defense Rating = 1
1 Dodge Rating = 1
1 Parry Rating = 9/10
1 Agi = 2/3
1 Block Value = 1/2
1 Block Rating = * (Block rating I value at 1/2 vs trash, 0 vs bosses. However in an uncrushable set, Block rating = 2 because it gets you to uncrushable roughly twice as fast as defense)

S (effective health) is given by:

1 Stamina = 1
15-18 Armor = 1 depending on your current hp vs armor levels and wether youre tauren
1 Block Value = 1/4 (you block at least 2 hits during the period of time where you might die)
1 Agi = 1/10 (for the armor it gives)


Thus some stats are valued very highly for their benefit in multiple areas, such as:

Block Value = 1/2 O + 1/2 D + 1/4 S (i.e. 10 block value is like 5 hit rating + 5 defense rating + 2.5 stam)
15 Armor = 1/2 D + 1S (15 armor is like 1 stam + 1/2 defense)
1 Agi = 1/3 O + 2/3 D + 1/10 S (10 agi is like 3 hit + 7 defense + 1 stam)

Expertise is the best stat in general for its itemization cost, and should be a priority except in fights where threat doesnt really matter.

Block Value is the best all around stat.

Armor is the best stat for survivabilty, contributing both effective health and damage reduction.