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Razmo
11-28-2007, 04:51 AM
As you guys can see in my sig, my block rating is high and my dodge a bit low. Block rating is less important then block value and dodge but still I like shield block rating.

I'm using Girdle of the Immovable

As an upgrade shall I wait till Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable drops from Moroes and buy Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx (Moroes hasn't been to good to me, no drops so far) or go for the vendor badge belt the Iron-tusk Girdle

Narshe
11-28-2007, 05:07 AM
Depends on what bracers do you have, but the badge belt is far superior than the other two belts. Block rating is an "useless" stat for a warrior unless you are aiming for a passive uncrushable set.
You can also get the socket bonus from the badge belt, the other two only have room for two +12 stamina gems.

I would get the badges belt, bracers are good but not a high upgrade. Btw, what bracers do you have atm?

Razmo
11-28-2007, 05:12 AM
Vambraces of Courage , not to bad but with the upgrade I gain stamina (a bit) and ofc expertice and armor.

I'll go for belt :D.

Nilya
11-28-2007, 05:27 AM
The badge belt is a pretty clear winner. Block rating is not quite useless, but dodge is a better stat in every way (except where excessive avoidance will lead to rage starvation) until you are talking about becoming passively uncrushable.

Narshe
11-28-2007, 05:48 AM
Vambraces of Courage , not to bad but with the upgrade I gain stamina (a bit) and ofc expertice and armor.

I'll go for belt :D.

Bracers won't be a clear upgrade. They are slight better, you are trading Expertise for SBV which is good, but they are the same stamina and not much AC difference. Belt in the reverse have more stamina, more armor and better tank stats. Save the bracers for the last upgrade, imho.

Razmo
11-28-2007, 05:50 AM
I will do that :D got the back now going for the belt and I might want to change the +6 sta + 4 def gem for 12 stamina on my bracer and drop the socket bonus.

brain9h
11-28-2007, 08:59 AM
Block rating is a good stat, it provides mitigation without rage starvation. If brings increasing results in mitigation and keep your rage in line.

Compared to dodge, 1% dodge is better than 1% block, BUT... since block rating is cheaper than dodge, you will rarely be facing a 1-to-1 choice, while it is usually something like: 1% dodge or 3% block? That is actually the trade you make when you switch from Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable to Iron-tusk Girdle. It happens all the time in gearing.

That's a hard question. Currently, there are 3 attacks every hundred or so you that are being HITs on you, and you could modifiy this with gear. If X is the hit damage, than you are taking 3X damage in those attacks.
Increase your dodge by 1% and you will take 2X damage instead.
Increase your block by 3% and you will take 3X-3BV. (BV=block value)

Solving the inequation for which conditions 3X-3BV (3% block) > 2X (1% dodge), you reach that it is for X > 3BV. So, if your sbv is 500, for anything that hits higher than 1500, dodge is better from a pure damage-intake point of view. That will be most bosses, BUT for bosses you are being healed anyway, so that is not an argument in favour of dodge. Against thrash that hits fast but with low damage, or against AoE pulls with lots of low damage enemies, 3% shield block rating is much better than 1% dodge.

There is the EDF argument, that dodge spreads the hits you take, and it would be saving your shield block charges within a a 5-second time frame. That is a quite strong argument, BUT only if you assume 1% dodge does really make a practical difference. Because if the boss hits fast enough, or if the battle is long enough such that 1% dodge will not stop you from taking 3 hits in 5 seconds and crushing blows becomes possible, then dodge is not saving you. Probably, if you prefer dodge in ALL your gear you might come close to that ideal, but then again, the side-effect of rage starvation kicks in.

So, as I said, its hard to say which is better. In layman terms, 1% dodge would "better" then 3% dodge as it allows your health bar to go down less times, but making a significant difference... I doubt it.

Therefore, my own personal view, EH is king. Dodge is good but secondary, as well as shield block rating. I never base any of my gear decisions on those stats, the reason I am replacing my Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable for Iron-tusk Girdle is because the later has FAR MORE EH than the other. I don't really judge the loss of shield block rating vs dodge as being relevant, it is the gain of EH that really matters. I let my avoidance stats be what they are when I dress my best EH gear :D

Kream
11-28-2007, 09:53 AM
Block rating is a good stat, it provides mitigation without rage starvation. If brings increasing results in mitigation and keep your rage in line.

Compared to dodge, 1% dodge is better than 1% block, BUT... since block rating is cheaper than dodge, you will rarely be facing a 1-to-1 choice, while it is usually something like: 1% dodge or 3% block? That is actually the trade you make when you switch from Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable to Iron-tusk Girdle. It happens all the time in gearing.

That's a hard question. Currently, there are 3 attacks every hundred or so you that are being HITs on you, and you could modifiy this with gear. If X is the hit damage, than you are taking 3X damage in those attacks.
Increase your dodge by 1% and you will take 2X damage instead.
Increase your block by 3% and you will take 3X-3BV. (BV=block value)

Solving the inequation for which conditions 3X-3BV (3% block) > 2X (1% dodge), you reach that it is for X > 3BV. So, if your sbv is 500, for anything that hits higher than 1500, dodge is better from a pure damage-intake point of view. That will be most bosses, BUT for bosses you are being healed anyway, so that is not an argument in favour of dodge. Against thrash that hits fast but with low damage, or against AoE pulls with lots of low damage enemies, 3% shield block rating is much better than 1% dodge.

There is the EDF argument, that dodge spreads the hits you take, and it would be saving your shield block charges within a a 5-second time frame. That is a quite strong argument, BUT only if you assume 1% dodge does really make a practical difference. Because if the boss hits fast enough, or if the battle is long enough such that 1% dodge will not stop you from taking 3 hits in 5 seconds and crushing blows becomes possible, then dodge is not saving you. Probably, if you prefer dodge in ALL your gear you might come close to that ideal, but then again, the side-effect of rage starvation kicks in.

So, as I said, its hard to say which is better. In layman terms, 1% dodge would "better" then 3% dodge as it allows your health bar to go down less times, but making a significant difference... I doubt it.

Therefore, my own personal view, EH is king. Dodge is good but secondary, as well as shield block rating. I never base any of my gear decisions on those stats, the reason I am replacing my Crimson Girdle of the Indomitable for Iron-tusk Girdle is because the later has FAR MORE EH than the other. I don't really judge the loss of shield block rating vs dodge as being relevant, it is the gain of EH that really matters. I let my avoidance stats be what they are when I dress my best EH gear :D

Well first off the tradeoff for block rating to dodge is 2.4. So even with a SBV of 500, now you are looking at anything that hits for less than 1200. If your SBV is more around 350ish (as mine is), it's anything that hits harder than 840. So in normal instances, block rating is probably better, for heroics dodge probably has a slight advantage, and anywhere in a raid block rating is useless. If you have Shield Block up, as you will non-stop on a boss mob, block rating is giving you zero benefit. I don't know about you, but I gear for raid boss mobs, not normal instance mobs.

Also I've heard this "you are getting healed already" argument one too many times. It's not your post that irritates me, just this whole misconception. Every healer that is on you will cancel the heal if you dodge/parry etc and end up with a full health bar. In fact the more they cancel the heals instead of letting them through, the more time the spend outside of the 5 sec rule and the more mana they get back which allows you to get heals for longer. A fight where a healer must back to back cast heals is horrible on mana efficiency.

brain9h
11-28-2007, 12:59 PM
Well first off the tradeoff for block rating to dodge is 2.4. So even with a SBV of 500, now you are looking at anything that hits for less than 1200. If your SBV is more around 350ish (as mine is), it's anything that hits harder than 840. So in normal instances, block rating is probably better, for heroics dodge probably has a slight advantage, and anywhere in a raid block rating is useless. If you have Shield Block up, as you will non-stop on a boss mob, block rating is giving you zero benefit. I don't know about you, but I gear for raid boss mobs, not normal instance mobs.


Thanks for pointing out the more precise 2.4 to 1 ratio. It matters little actually, but whatever, doesn't hurt to have the right numbers.

As for your 350ish shield block value... when, that's a rather low number, but I see you don't value the stat a lot. I'm currently at 410 SBV without the auto-blocker, and could easily gear up for 500 or maybe even 600 if I wanted to. A tank that likes SBV because it adds threat, will certainly remember that shield block rating is synergic with it SBV.

As shield block rating being useless, that is just plain wrong. You can argue that dodge is better, which is generally true, but not state that shield block rating is useless.

It is a fact that for most bosses in 10 minutes battles there are chances (near 100%) that you will be hit 3 times within a 5s frame at least once, and usually lots of times, no matter how high your avoidance is. Parries, special attacks that you block, simple bad luck.... it happens quite often. And when the first 2 hits come and eat your shield block charges and puts your health 50%, then for that next attack you will wish you had replaced all your dodge for shield block rating, because that would increase your safety zone by a factor of 2.4... as you know a block is not a deadly crush. Now, what I just said is not reason to stack block rating in the expense of dodge, I'm just saying it is not useless. It has a function in the game, not as good as dodge, but definitely worth having.



Also I've heard this "you are getting healed already" argument one too many times. It's not your post that irritates me, just this whole misconception.


There is no misconception in stacking EH and tanking anything in the world of warcraft. I never take bad-luck streaks that kill me, as opposed to avoidance tanks who are tanking a boss and Puff!, they fall down dead, they had 'bad luck' in the dodges/parries. As it turns out, 'bad luck' happens in nearly all fights, it is a statistical certainty. Yes you must be EH based and healed continuously if you want to 1-shot a boss, all the time.



Every healer that is on you will cancel the heal if you dodge/parry etc and end up with a full health bar.


In theory. But in practice... it is SAFER to not cancel any heal unless a battle is extremely mana intensive, or when the healer feel your mana won't last the full battle even using pots at every cooldown. Mana pots that are cheaper than repair costs, and time lost because a healer decided that was safe to cancel a cast, made a mistake and killed the tank is also a big problem that could stop a guild from progressing.

I know most of top healers in my server and all of them know how to cancel spells, but they never do it because they just don't need to. Safety first, better to wipe OOM than to wipe of early tank death... dying OOM gives you a measurement of performance in terms of boss % and gives your raid time to practice the battle and improve. Also, there is the extreme frustration of 1 hour of thrash mobs + 10 minutes preparing + pull + tank dead in 1 minute.

Also, if you are dying OOM you will most likely benefit from more armor and SBV as that will allow your healers to downrank spells more often while still remaining safe. That will give you safer mana conservation.

Kazeyonoma
11-28-2007, 04:11 PM
I'm in the same boat as thou razmo,

I got the legs just now, and were debating next piece to upgrade.

I'm gonna go from Gilded Thorium Cloak to Slikk's Cloak of Placation

then go for belt, then bracers and not gloves. I have the same belt/bracers/gloves as you, maidens > badge gloves imo.

veneretio
11-28-2007, 05:53 PM
maidens > badge gloves imo.
Bonefist Gauntlets offer more Armor, Stamina, Avoidance and Threat than Maiden's so unless you are struggling to maintain 490 Defense I'd have to give the nod to the badge gloves.

Razmo
11-29-2007, 12:38 AM
Thnx for all the help guys, I took the coak aswell btw, it's a rly nice one. I can buy belt tonight and will be saving for bracers after this.

Shortypop
11-29-2007, 03:58 AM
Just to go back to the block rating vs dodge debate. I used to religiously swop a trash tank set for a boss tank set (both of which were very similar), but having got the new heroic badges neck, bracers and legs plus the feet from bear in za, my sets are now really starting to look very different and I've even added in an OT-dodge set, aimed at ot'ing lynx. My set with my lowest dodge has about 15% dodge and 37% block rating, while my OT-dodge set has 23% dodge and about 22% blockrating. It might even out once I've got the new heroic badges cloak and belt as both of those have dodge, but more likely I'm going to have several "more extreme" dodge and block rating sets. I'm still not sold on the new heroic badges hands, as I can foresee major problems at keeping 490def :(

conclusion: WTB bigger bags.

Taelas
11-29-2007, 05:20 AM
As shield block rating being useless, that is just plain wrong. You can argue that dodge is better, which is generally true, but not state that shield block rating is useless.
No, it's just plain right. Shield Block Rating is useless unless you aim for a passive uncrushable set.


It is a fact that for most bosses in 10 minutes battles there are chances (near 100%) that you will be hit 3 times within a 5s frame at least once, and usually lots of times, no matter how high your avoidance is. Parries, special attacks that you block, simple bad luck.... it happens quite often. And when the first 2 hits come and eat your shield block charges and puts your health 50%, then for that next attack you will wish you had replaced all your dodge for shield block rating, because that would increase your safety zone by a factor of 2.4... as you know a block is not a deadly crush. Now, what I just said is not reason to stack block rating in the expense of dodge, I'm just saying it is not useless. It has a function in the game, not as good as dodge, but definitely worth having.
Your understanding of crushes is flawed.

Shield block rating does not affect whether or not you get a crush until you start pushing crushes off the table. No matter how much shield block rating you have.

Let's say you have 40% avoidance (miss+parry+dodge) and 20% block. You're uncrittable, so the things left are crushes (15%) and hit. The attack table looks like this:

Miss: 10%
Dodge: 15%
Parry: 15%
Block: 20%
Crit: 0%
Crush: 15%
Hit: 25%

Let's say you increase your block chance to 40% without changing anything else.

Miss: 10%
Dodge: 15%
Parry: 15%
Block: 40%
Crit: 0%
Crush: 15%
Hit: 5%

Due to the nature of the combat table, the 20% comes from the mob's chance to hit, not its chance to crush. Were you to increase your block by an additional 10%, you'd push 5% crushes off the table. But then you're aiming for passive uncrushability.

The reason warriors are uncrushable is because Shield Block increases their block chance enough to push anything above it off the table. Shield Block even pushes block chance off - in the above example, it pushes off all of the block chance you accumulated as well as 15% of its own buff.

Thus, Shield Block Rating is utterly redundant for a warrior unless you're trying for passive uncrushability.

brain9h
11-29-2007, 05:45 AM
Oh, I see, the 15% crush is fixed no matter how high my block rating is, thanks.

Taelas
11-29-2007, 07:55 AM
Oh, I see, the 15% crush is fixed no matter how high my block rating is, thanks.

Well, until you start actually pushing it off (which starts after 87.4% avoidance+block versus a level 70). Until that point, block rating basically does nothing when you have Shield Block up (and when it's not up, all it does is turn a hit into a block).

Avoidance is different, though. Shield Block doesn't affect avoidance, and an avoided hit doesn't take up a charge from Shield Block, so avoidance actually increases the chance to have Shield Block last for its duration.

Mordigen
11-30-2007, 08:22 AM
I guess I am just missing your argument for shield block rating. It is a percentage that you will block an attack, which in turn lowers the damage taken by you shield block value and makes it uncrushable. Now this percentage falls within the Blizzard random roll for every mob attack. This does not mean that someone that stacks for dodge is not going to block anything, or that someone that stacks block rating is not going to dodge, just that the frequencies of one is greater than the other. Anyways the high block rating is only helping push hits off the roll, not necessarily crushes until you get really high ratings. The dodge rating is still going to push the table up to limit your hits, and spamming shield block takes care of the crushes when it is up.

For instance, someone with high dodge and shield blocks the first 2 attacks like you quote in your example and has 50% health, at this time I am not wishing for another block, I am wishing that I avoid a hit all together and give my healers and extra moment to get caught up.

kevinb70
11-30-2007, 12:48 PM
Oh, I see, the 15% crush is fixed no matter how high my block rating is, thanks.

Norrath is absolutely correct as far as SBR never affects crushing blows, until you pass >85% passive avoidance (miss+dodge+parry+block). 85% or 87.5%-ish?




The one thing I like SBR is for is tanking multiple mobs in heroics with shield spike.


The higher chance you have to block, the more threat you build because they are bashing themselves on your shield spike and taking damage. As far as your active shield block ability, it's gone in 2 seconds with 5-8 mobs pounding on you.


Also doesn't shield spike directly add to shield slam damage? Is it multipled by shield mastery?



Each block = damage done to them = threat on you. I use my old Coldarra with a felsteel spike, and use tank gear with SBR and SBV on it. Before I would use CC and wear alot of DPS gear.

With a good healer, you can pull the entire room and tank them all without any CC. You also save time by not having to mark CC, just mark skull. when skull is almost dead you just transfer the mark to the next mob you want killed next (or let them aoe after you get a good amount of threat.)

After watching my guildie pally tank heroic SH (I was on my mage) by grabbing the entire room with no CC and not dying - I wanted to mimic that on my warrior. I took a semi-interest in gear with SBR and SBV (for my slams and reducing the damage of each blocked attack) with gear I already have. What I get is a real threat machine.

My first thought was, "If I tank all of them, they will kill me!" They didnt.


I've healed heroics as well. I know how absolutely boring healing is in 5-man with CC, compared to raids (when tank is getting hit from 5k-10k+). It might actually keep your healer awake, and it certainly doesn't drain their mana.


I was actually on here to look for a SBR/SBV gear list, I've seen them here before (SBV, not so sure about SBR).

veneretio
11-30-2007, 01:50 PM
Also doesn't shield spike directly add to shield slam damage? Is it multipled by shield mastery?

Nope, shield spike doesn't add to shield slam damage. It does however ignore the Armor of mobs making it the best threat enchant for a shield by far.

Xaleph
12-01-2007, 03:12 PM
Since block rating gets calculated after misses, dodges, and parries - and since you should always have shield block up in a boss fight, you should never have crushing blows (assuming your dodge, parry, and block with shield block up add up to 100%).

Block rating is really good for multi tanking and that's about it. In Hyjal, when you're tanking multiple demons for Azg, you may have more than 3 mobs hitting you and stunning you periodically. High armor, dodge, and high block rating help out quite a bit.

For Single tanking, block rating should really be benched for dodge/parry bosses (Mother Shaz OTs for example) or threat (Gurtogg/Teron for example).

bludwork
12-06-2007, 12:33 PM
Higher SB% is useless when you're spamming shield block, but that's not the only thing it does, it affects how often you block which increases the damage you mitigate over the course of a fight. It is not as valuable as dodge% but hardly "useless"

Radhja
12-09-2007, 02:30 AM
Dodge vs Shield Block Rating... this feels like new territory to explore and mutilate, however it's really just the old "Avoidance vs Mitigation" debate. ;)

Dodge gives no significant bonus other than avoiding an otherwise-damaging incoming blow. Granted, this alone is benefit enough to merit using Dodge, but I believe it is only useful to a certain extent. Tanks are fueled by Rage (speaking only from the Warrior's perspective here), and Dodging a blow doesn't confer any rage-gaining benefits. (I personally feel that this should change, but I digress...)

Shield Block Rating appears to be not-as-useful, but I consider it akin to a side-grade: useful in the same application, but in a different way. With Improved Shield Block, you're gaining at least 1 rage from each block, plus the rage from the damage dealt, thus enabling you to generate more threat in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I'm a fan of the "Crush Immune" ideologies to push the Block% to its max. If you're blocking more than you're dodging/parrying, you're cutting off a sizable chunk of damage off each blow. (This effect is magnified in PvP, where you have dual-wielders that quickly chip away at your life... you'd be surprised how often I saw "Block" (i.e., no damage dealt) with a Block Value around 530. I laughed everytime I got sap'd out of the blue cause I knew how the following 30 seconds or so were going to go.

Ultimately, the difference between the two varies upon preference and your specific build. If you're building for threat-generation and mitigation, spec for Shield Block Rating. If you prefer avoidance and relying on chance to see you through, feel free to spec into Dodge... but don't expect to be invited into many end-game raids. Those "streaks of bad luck" tend to happen often and always at the worst times.

Shield Spikes FTW!