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thugthedum
11-26-2007, 06:59 PM
I see lots of posts talking about "I easily reach 1000 tps lol" and "I even get 1000 tps in my avoidance gear lol" and "lol only noobs do 999 tps lol".

Well, I'm not a noob. So, are we exaggerating, or am I missing something?

Let me take for example a HKM fight last night. I'm wearing what I call my "tankpoints" set - it's the gear that tankpoints rates highest for me. I get around 14890 unbuffed HP, 16000 armor, 24% dodge, 516 defense. It's not overly avoidance heavy or overly EH stacker, it's a mix. I get the standard expertise from defensive stance (sweet) and 4.79% hit (spicy talbuk FTW). I don't have a lot of SBV gear, so it was probably 325. I swing King's Defender with Mongoose and equip the
Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall.

Here's what I'm doing:

Not that the opener matters, as it's only like 6 seconds of a 5 minute fight, but it's survival focused not TPS.

Blood rage (hunter MD) -> shield block -> (HKM arrives) revenge -> whatever.

This is plenty of threat to keep the healers and myself alive in the beginning of a hectic fight while guaranteeing uncrushability.

After that, shield block spam, heroic strike spam (over 40 rage), and

shield slam -> devastate -> devastate -> revenge

Here's even a WWS from Gruul later the same night. Chances are I was doing something very similar.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/q4het4nfle3ai)

So I averaged about 600-700 tps by omen.

Sure, if I really epeen out, skip shield blocks, get lots of heal threat (pom, etc), get great mongoose procs, use my gnomeregan trinket I can peak 1400 tps no problem; even sustain 950-1200. But that's not what usually happens. 600-700 tps is what happens usually, especially once a fight settles down and the initial spike from the devastate sunders are gone.

I don't ever loose mobs; I get and keep control locked down; my total threat in omen is way over everyone else's most of the time. But I just don't see the 1k tps sustained that everyone seems to think is our birthright.

Thoughts? Am I doing it wrong? Is it my noobishly low SBV? Is it that I don't have a pocket shaman keeping windfury totem on me? Or is this about right?





Edit: I placed this in theory as I'm expecting a theoryish answer. Feel free to put it somewhere else, but please don't delete.

Nicki
11-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Nope, your looking at the 'facts' rather than the threat meter ;) you sir earn a browney point !

Fact is overstated tps is an epeen race, I can't do 1000 TPS on my paladin I can spike 1300 though depending on mob attack speed but it isn't my threat per second its a parse of point A and point B. Many fail to realise they aren't threat gods and will say they can do 1000 TPS when in actual fact they just got lucky with a shield slam and revenge hitting or critting in between the parse points of the threat meter :)..

Ceravantes
11-26-2007, 07:17 PM
Nope, your looking at the 'facts' rather than the threat meter ;) you sir earn a browney point !

Fact is overstated tps is an epeen race, I can't do 1000 TPS on my paladin I can spike 1300 though depending on mob attack speed but it isn't my threat per second its a parse of point A and point B. Many fail to realise they aren't threat gods and will say they can do 1000 TPS when in actual fact they just got lucky with a shield slam and revenge hitting or critting in between the parse points of the threat meter :)..

That sums it up fairly well, the only way to calculate your sustained TPS is to do the math yourself through logs, most people are not anywhere near 1k sustained TPS

Berginyon
11-26-2007, 07:30 PM
Also if you want to see how long you can hold a 1k tps, don't use a skull boss like Gruul, the glancing blows and 9% miss cut into your threat. I can hover at or above 1k in my threat gear, on hard hitting trash that is lightly armored. :-) The trash before gruul is good for flexing epeen tps on lightly armored lvl 70-71 ogres, no shield block required.

thugthedum
11-26-2007, 09:17 PM
<3 tankspot.

So how do I look on WWS tho? I guess I'm afraid you will see my dirty secret: that I over spam demo shout and tclap because I can't tell if the boss is debuffed or not once the raid turns their attention to my mob.

Tharr
11-26-2007, 09:39 PM
<3 tankspot.

So how do I look on WWS tho? I guess I'm afraid you will see my dirty secret: that I over spam demo shout and tclap because I can't tell if the boss is debuffed or not once the raid turns their attention to my mob.

Get debuff filter, a nice addon that lets u filter what u want to see and place it anywhere on your screen, works on both debuffs and buffs, on your target/yourself/focustarget.

Debuff Filter | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/3574)

Ceravantes
11-26-2007, 10:47 PM
Get debuff filter, a nice addon that lets u filter what u want to see and place it anywhere on your screen, works on both debuffs and buffs, on your target/yourself/focustarget.

Debuff Filter | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/3574)

Also Natur's Enemy Cast bar can be set to give you timers in movable bars for debuffs. Most Unit frame mods have debuff filters as well.

Dots
11-27-2007, 01:22 AM
Sustaining 1k TPS and more is definitely possible, but it depends a lot on gear and the encounter. 600-700 TPS in Kara/T4'ish gear on HKM is good and there is no reason at all to push it any higher, nobody is hitting him for a long time anyways.
However, on a (mostly) straight forward tank and spank fight like Teron Gorefiend, 1200+ TPS is doable with the best possible threat gear and a threat oriented MT group with shaman, feral druid and Battle Shout. I would guess you can sustain as much as 1300-1400 TPS if you really use everything available, even a bit more if you don't Shield Block and just take the crushes. That's not really worth the risk though.

Nilya
11-27-2007, 05:34 AM
While I know I've seen a threat jump since the patch and the gear changes I've made, sustaining 1K TPS over many fights isn't generally likely or necessary. There will be bursts for as much as thirty seconds that I'll see 1100ish on Omen (and I know I wasn't getting frequent bursts like that pre-patch) for up to twenty or thirty seconds, but for most of the fights, I sit at around 700 to 800, maybe 900 if the boss just gives me ridiculous amounts of rage (like the no-crushers in ZA).

High King Maulgar is not a threat-heavy fight. Your DPS has four mobs to kill before they get there, and that's a minute or so for you to build up aggro anyway. He hits pretty darn hard, and has some nasty specials that can hurt if you have bad streaks of non-avoidance. There's no benefit in going all out threat on him. Keeping up debuffs and Shield Block is a bit more important on a fight like this than a little threat-meter epeen.

Dare I say watching threat meters is a good way to forget to debuff or Shield Block and potentially get yourself splatted? Sometimes, I think I should hide the Omen window during raids. The right amount of threat to generate is generally the amount that keeps you safely above your highest-threat DPS while killing the boss safely before an enrage timer elapses.

Seth
11-27-2007, 12:29 PM
Here's what I see from the WWS report (looking at try 2 since it was the most total damage):

You used you global cooldown for aggro generating abilities 84 times for a total of 2:06 used GCD time.

You swung your 1.6 speed sword 130 times for a total of 3:28 of actually attacking him. We could probably round this number down some from procs etc.

Two things I really see here are 1) You are attacking for 3:28 out of the 6:43 you lived. If your tps is 700 over the whole fight with that kind of percentage time actually on the mob, I'd say it's pretty good. 2) You could probably make better use of your attacking time to get more GCD based attacks in there (probably not the full 50% extra time, but maybe 30%). You definitely had the rage when you were HSing 2/3 the time.

thugthedum
11-27-2007, 04:10 PM
I'm starting to see what you mean; I guess 6:43 - stone/shatter - missed attacks = 3:28

On Gruul, I was probably not doing 700 tps. The OT's tps is the important one, I'd be more careful on Gruul, Stone/Shatter freezes my ability to attack quite a bit and so on. I think we actually had the OT trying mortal strike in defensive stance (he's arms) to get better tps on that attempt.

I thought I had remembered that yellow damage couldn't be parried or dodged. I guess that was wrong, as WWS is showing that my heroic strikes are being dodge parried and blocked. (Would have been nice; if HS reduced Parry, it would essentially be avoidance.)

Taelas
11-27-2007, 04:32 PM
For your debuffs, get Quartz. <3 Quartz. Swingtimer, debuffs, GCD meter, custom cast bar. It's good.

Mordigen
11-30-2007, 02:11 PM
I am trying to get an understanding for the value of shield blocks on uncrushing mobs like ZA. Is it worth it to use shield block even with no chance of crushing blows just for the extra rage from talent and the use of revenge, or are you better off skipping the shield block and spamming HS, shield slam, and devastate to keep sunders up?

And for the record, I too am usually around 700ish tps for boss fights that I pay attention to tps, with spikes here and there, but nothing to brag about, and I really don't see the need for 1000 plus tps during most boss encounters where other skills help play a bigger role in survivability.

Nuberino
11-30-2007, 03:27 PM
Shieldblock on hard hitting bosses in ZA is still worth it assuming you aren't rage starved... and since those bosses hit like trucks you aren't :)

It is still pretty effective mitigation.

Daimyo
12-01-2007, 06:48 PM
While I agree that there certainly is a lot of epeen and unverified reports of people sustaining 1k+ of tps with their eyes closed I thinkit is doable on many boss fights since 2.3. I averaged 892 on the last VR fight I did. Considering the knock back cycles where your getting a lot less rage and his higher armor (we do still get plenty of our threat from damage), I had to be sustaining much higher than that when he was targeted on me.

Teadrinker
12-01-2007, 09:07 PM
I think we actually had the OT trying mortal strike in defensive stance (he's arms) to get better tps on that attempt.

Out of curiosity how did that work. i'm a 33/5/23, and only doing 10 mans at the minute (where it works out fine), but my guild may do 25 mans soonish and i'm wondering if it will be a viable spec, because it feels quite low threat (450-750ish, although i'm still using a blue weapon) and i feel like its only an act of kindness that i'm ever taken over a feral druid.

thugthedum
12-02-2007, 01:04 PM
How did it work?

- His TPS output was very very high. He swung an epic two hander in defensive stance wearing Karazhan tanking gear, his spec has 3/3 defiance and 3/3 tactical mastery. His TPS was better than our feral druids had done. Therefore we got Gruul lower than we had ever done before, as we're melee heavy and our rogues do fantastic DPS. On a lesser fight like Moroes, he frequently out threats me doing this. Which would be bad if our healers didn't outgear the Moroes fight, because he's not wearing a shield. I typically have to tell him to slow down when he's doing this.

- He died. Typically our OT dying is why we can't get past this fight. (a light goes on) We're going to try next time where he will mortal strike with a 2h three or four times to keep threat high, then swap to s&b and sunder armor until the mortal strike comes, then back to MS and so forth. He can't sustain MS'ing a one hander on Gruul, not enough rage - this is where the two hander comes in.

Teadrinker
12-02-2007, 01:32 PM
thanks, thats cheered me up some, been having doubts about it recently because of these sorts of situations, i did moroes this way and didnt seem to have the threat problems i sometimes have (also a two hander to sword and board macro really helps) but i didnt have time to look at my combat log to see what my tps was.

(btw if he doesnt have enough rage i hear sitting in cave ins can help)

thugthedum
12-02-2007, 05:12 PM
Actually, doing some math, in a "boss has no armor, tank always hits, boss never avoids, endless rage" scenario, it looks like Mortal Striking with a King's Defender can do about 931 tps with 3/3 TM 3/3 Defiance.

Edit: in future, I shall refer to this as "EBITDA".

deadwrong
12-03-2007, 07:46 AM
having both MT and OT'd Gruul here's a few tips which hopefully will help you guys:

- MT should never really find themselves rage starved. he's hitting for a LOT, so just use a standard shot rotation (SS / Rev / Dev / Dev), interweave with SB whenever this is up and throw in HS when rage is 40 or above. i found that due to the damage he did i was adding in HS's c70% of the time.

- as the OT i have always gone S+B with max SBV and stacked a couple of DPS items in the mix. getting rage starved is the killer here so here's how i got round that:

* wait till the MT is in and intervene him to start, take a couple of hits and hello rage!
* [Mighty Rage Potions] were chained.
* use the cave-in to generate rage (though not at the expense of your life!)
* intervene the MT after EVERY shatter. as well as the + rage you get to land a couple of Revenge's which is great.
* likihood is that you'll be laying down TC / DS / CS to help the MT out. if you have DPS warriors in the squad - get them to take over these duties to free up your rage.
* for shot rotation it was simply a mix of SS and Dev's. i use the autoblocker trinket so make sure you have a full rage bar when that is about to pop and get 4 x SS's in with the +200 extra SBV.

HTH!

- DW

Daimyo
12-03-2007, 10:26 AM
How did it work?

- His TPS output was very very high. He swung an epic two hander in defensive stance wearing Karazhan tanking gear, his spec has 3/3 defiance and 3/3 tactical mastery. His TPS was better than our feral druids had done. Therefore we got Gruul lower than we had ever done before, as we're melee heavy and our rogues do fantastic DPS. On a lesser fight like Moroes, he frequently out threats me doing this. Which would be bad if our healers didn't outgear the Moroes fight, because he's not wearing a shield. I typically have to tell him to slow down when he's doing this.

- He died. Typically our OT dying is why we can't get past this fight. (a light goes on) We're going to try next time where he will mortal strike with a 2h three or four times to keep threat high, then swap to s&b and sunder armor until the mortal strike comes, then back to MS and so forth. He can't sustain MS'ing a one hander on Gruul, not enough rage - this is where the two hander comes in.


Its great that he can generate that much threat with that spec but trying to OT Gruul w/o a shield is just asking for a wipe. Check deadwrongs post if you haven't, I'd add to remember hunters, Misdirect will really help raise the ceiling for the meleers.

deadwrong
12-04-2007, 04:55 AM
Its great that he can generate that much threat with that spec but trying to OT Gruul w/o a shield is just asking for a wipe. Check deadwrongs post if you haven't, I'd add to remember hunters, Misdirect will really help raise the ceiling for the meleers.

^^ what he said! :)

2 hunters using MD's on the OT in this fight is pure WIN! they get the dps in and you get the threat - everyone is a winner!

remember that this fight is a DPS-race of sorts. you don't want him getting into the teens on his grows and you should be aiming to get him down by the early double-figures once you have him on farm.

in that respect, the last thing you want is a rogue / arms warrior having to hold back on the dps in fear of passing the OT on the threat list.

- DW

Marvin
12-04-2007, 12:04 PM
Well first of all....as a tank as long as you are holding aggro and dps doesn't have to hold back - you are doing fine. Here on Duskwood server i've heard and seen too many tanks and especially dps warriors that think they know about tanking insisting on +hit rating gems over stam/def gems and +agility enchants over stam enchants just for more TPS. They think 1k + TPS makes a good tank. You're doing fine with your threat. My advice is ask ur guildies (DPS) if they are holding back at all.

As for Gruuls fight....i got cocky one time saying Gruuls is barely hitting me and didn't keep up shield block. Even with 22k HP Raid Buffed, 20% Dodge, 20% Parry and 30% Block, with 19k armor I died (partly healer problem too) but the point is....if I died with gettin lazy on shield block....a kara geared warrior using a 2hander is absurd imo. I average 750-850 TPS and i stay WELL above all our dps on Gruuls. THere is no need for a warrior to 2h fight this. IF by some chance melee are about to pull aggro which i really can't see this happening but they are insanely geared/good then tell them to hold back. Our guild downs Gruuls on average now 10-13 Grows....tanks/OT's threat is about 30-50k above the rest of the raid's. I think 2hand MAIN tanking is absurd in 25 mans for right now. I hear they are buffing arms/fury tree in the future though so we'll see then.

Kamgha
12-04-2007, 06:21 PM
There is an excel spreadsheet on EJ forums about average TPS on a fight which will give you a good insight to actual TPS... I consider myself capable of doing 1k TPS for a decently sustained period of time but when looking at this spreadsheet it puts me around 900 TPS sustained for an entire fight. Which I can see because it factors in everything.

link (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11634-warrior_tanking_tps_sheet/)
There is an updated one from another person with expertise near the end of the pages (page 7 post 161)

rhideon
12-05-2007, 06:39 AM
1ktps is extremely easy to keep at a consistent rate. I really don't understand especially with the +weapon expertise that has been added, almost every boss fight I can keep up to 1k-1100 tps and peaking sometimes around 14-1500. The peaks come from Shield Slam crits, but as for 1k tps it should be farely easy to keep at a sustainable rate.

Horacio
12-05-2007, 07:59 AM
Its all relative just like healing. How much TPS do you NEED? Enough so that DPS isn't threat capped, be it 800 sustained or 1200 sustained if you have some freaks in T6 gear. How much healing-per-second do you need? Enough to keep everyone topped off, mana regen, and a reserve for emergencies.

When tanking, I seldom gear for threat because I have "enough" I look at who is in the raid, the nature of the encounter and I consider swapping in an item or two. I can touch 1K but more often than not, I will go for more stam, more mitigation, more avoidance before going threat. Granted, I'm in T4ish gear, perhaps a little better. My tank is not currently my raiding main but I'm MTing ZA and Kara.

In T5 content, 1-1.2K DPS is pretty decent for most DPS classes. Factor in Salv and individual threat supression talents, etc.....How much TPS do you really need? And what are you willing to give up to get it?

Melange
12-06-2007, 07:56 AM
As far as your TPS is concerned, it may be a bit low, but it's totally fine for the gear you are wearing. TPS will go up when you get a new tanking weapon. If you really need more TPS, you can put a shaman in your party.

As far as the offtank is concerned, the feral Druid should be the best offtank. If he is not, then he is failing you, and you should consider finding a new Feral. A few tips: in his likely gear, in the off-tank spot, he should be using lacerate only to keep up the bleed and spamming maul with his rage, while making sure to mangle and faerie fire feral on CD. That will get him maximum threat in a low rage situation.

Your major problem in that WWS report is that you have 9 melee. Three are tanks, and that is fine. You can take three tanks if you want, but you should not ever have five rogues. The most rogues you ever want for any boss is two. The problem with so many in melee is that cave in will hit them all, and it also becomes harder to avoid shatter damage.

This fight will be much easier for you if you get rid of three rogues and use a good feral druid off-tank. DPS warriors are for DPS.

Mordigen
12-06-2007, 03:28 PM
Ya a shaman in the group will bump up TPS a good amount, but also others dps as well. I noticed a difference with a shaman and windfury totem up. I must say I have not looked at TPS for bosses, but for trash in Kara depending on the mob I got as low as around 700 and up to 1400. The most important thing like others have stated is to stay ahead of your raid, without them having to hold back, or maybe just a little. If you can do that, the TPS is just a guide to stay above that.

thugthedum
12-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Thanks so much those who posted thoughtfully! Our rogues aren't going anywhere anytime soon, so we'll have to "bear" through it. We try to bring a feral to this fight; this week we did it with a feral and it went much better than with a prot OT. I find that feral OT's seem to have an easier time getting the TPS output than prot OTs do. This week we were back to shatter/silence/healing problems killing me, whereas when we tried doing this with an arms OT we were wiping when we lost him.

BUT: thanks all for the advice; we typically forget to MD once the fight has started (putting that on the OT is a great idea), and I'm not sure they're buying rage potions.

We won't likely do the arms/2hander thing again, though it was fun to try and technically should be feasible, I insist. If he got good at it, i think it's even a good idea. But obviously, the fight was more "designed" for either a feral OT or a prot OT focusing on gear that will help him build rage while still having staggering HP and armor.

As for the question of "how much tps do you need?"

Well, we've been languishing around the 10 man mark for ages now; and many of us have put lots of time in to craftable items - a few of our rogues and warlocks are indeed threat bound now for their potential DPS output. We're imbalanced, in that the rest of the guild is in a mix of greens, blues and kara purples, but our core group is as well geared as you can be farming HKM, Kara, S2, and craftables.

My tps/gear/spec is solid, and as I am MT on Gruul I'm able to do plenty of tps - but the fight is OT bound, and we don't yet have a well geared OT that is dedicated to the task. We have a few warriors with excellent tank gear who show up every other week or so, an excellent feral who comes off an on, a few warriors with pretty good gear who will come every week and even put 20 points in to prot, but no solid well geared OT who is willing to commit.

deadwrong
12-10-2007, 07:55 AM
i hear <PALS FOR LIFE> are looking for a new Pally :rolleyes:

- DW

Xav
12-10-2007, 03:05 PM
Being able to push out higher TPS isn't just something for E-Peen meters or bragging rights, but it has realistic applications. Putting out a consistently high TPS, as high as you can muster without sacrificing real survivability, means you have more breathing room incase you do get a really bad streak and can't hit the mob(s) for a while.

Also knowing how, and being able to, maximize your threat generation will really help you out if you're wearing resistance gear, and that greatly hampers your threat generating stats to begin with, so you want to know how to do the best you can to make up for it.

At the high end level of raiding, people are also throwing out 2000+ DPS these days, and that's going to be at least 1000 tps for many classes.

Expertise really helped out tanks, and now it's very easy for even a tank that isn't in endgame content to have a great threat suit. You can get the badge Expertise items, and then get the ring from Lower City exalted (Shapeshifter's Signet), and wear some hit in your gear, and you'll be off to a good start.

Obviously just proper itemization isn't all it takes though and you need to be able to prioritize ability usage and not get yourself killed in the process.

Here's a log of Teron Gorefiend I tanked and had over 1300 sustained TPS, without an optimal group or gear setup. (Wasn't hit capped, wasn't wearing full threat stuff, did not have Windfury, or get a Heroism, etc).

Secure - WWS (http://wowwebstats.com/6f5rylwqa2vqm?s=1683-1911&a=13)

Put that URL in to here:
Kenneth Gant Niebuhr - Online portfolie (http://www.coolyo.org/index.php?area=threat)

At this point, I'm going to see, for fun, how much higher I can get without using a shaman, or ridiculous consumables, etc.

thugthedum
12-13-2007, 05:38 PM
Being able to push out higher TPS isn't just something for E-Peen meters or bragging rights

I agree totally. Raid DPS = MT TPS * COUNT OF DPS.

It's funny; even on a fight where Omen will report my tps around 650 at the end, our rogues will have pumped out 900 dps, and our locks and mages possibly well over 1k. Like I said, at least one or two of our dps'ers are threat bound. Hopefully getting in to the 25 man content will help.